Comments on: Four Lights

Four Lights

holloway — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:35:07 -0800

...implants a device in his body that delivers agonizing pain at the push of a button, and over the course of many days attempts to wear him down through a disturbingly simple process of psychological warfare. He is seated in a chair with four bright lights shining in his face, and the captor attempts through painful coercion to make him say that there are, in fact, five lights. Every time he refuses to say there are five lights, he is drilled with pain. In essence, he is expected to deny the reality described by his own eyes, and surrender the will of his mind to the definition of reality offered by his captor. Four Lights, a thesis [2]

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:43:59 -0800

This post is really very interesting, looking into how such dark psychological experiments can seep from academia into such barometers of mainstream consciousness as BZZZZZ OW OW OW I'M SORRY THIS POST SUCKS this post sucks... [sob]...

By: holloway

holloway — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:45:39 -0800

I thought we already agreed that on IRC.

By: Pretty_Generic

Pretty_Generic — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:50:19 -0800

Shh. THEY don't know that. The readership. Can I just say, hi everyone! You're all marvellous.

By: Perigee

Perigee — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:51:07 -0800

I remember This from Star Trek. The whole thing made Picard grow whiskers and pass out. It must be rough.

By: jazon

jazon — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:52:33 -0800

Perigee - that's the first thing I thought of - I'm just a big geek...

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:53:00 -0800

It's always nice when someone finds an new way to express and old feeling. Nice link. (And I always liked that Star Trek episode. David Warner rules!)

By: kavasa

kavasa — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:53:04 -0800

"Yup, five lights. Can I go now?" I think this is only torture for idiots and people who are under magical spells so they can't lie.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:00:26 -0800

kavasa - the thesis tries to point out similar dynamics of forced, arbitrary consensus reality in the real world. What does "can I go now?" mean in that context?

By: waxpancake

waxpancake — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:00:42 -0800

This Truthout.org editorial from October 2002 uses the same Star Trek/Four Lights analogy to talk about Iraq and the economy. A little too coincidental.

By: kavasa

kavasa — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:03:15 -0800

Scarabic - same thing. You quit your job, you don't watch news networks you don't like, whatever. Not too hard, in my experience.

By: riffola

riffola — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:04:45 -0800

waxy, he linked the link you linked as [2] in the post.

By: zerofoks

zerofoks — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:05:53 -0800

Isn't this ripped from 1984? 2+2=5?

By: Wingy

Wingy — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:08:04 -0800

zerofoks - Yeah.. I'm surprised this is being used as a Star Trek reference, since it's clearly Orwellian in origin. Almost straight out of 1984.

By: frykitty

frykitty — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:11:13 -0800

Isn't this ripped from 1984? 2+2=5? The second link mentions this. It's a good read.

By: zerofoks

zerofoks — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:12:10 -0800

Anyways, I don't really get what this post is aiming at. I mean, what's there to discuss? That there's a lot of people who want you to believe in wrong stuff? And force you into it?

By: JohnR

JohnR — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:20:17 -0800

Of course the opposite of this would be Plato and his Cave. He would argue you shouldn't trust what you see.(as the ultimate reality) Maybe there are five lights.

By: frykitty

frykitty — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:21:34 -0800

I think the idea is that we're brainwashed by society to believe things that are patently false. In the first essay, the five lights are religion, and the pain is ostracism. There are many examples of this kind of mass delusion, often perpetrated intentionally by those in power. Believe what we say, or you'll be shouted down. On the other hand, I think most folks honestly believe they see only four lights.

By: The Jesse Helms

The Jesse Helms — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:24:47 -0800

There are five lights.

By: zerofoks

zerofoks — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:28:24 -0800

I think the idea is that we're brainwashed by society to believe things that are patently false. But that is the normal state of things. Society telling the individual the truth is the exception. I don't get what's there to discuss... But maybe that's because I am just seeing three lights. teener neener neeener!

By: konolia

konolia — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:46:20 -0800

It's the rats.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:46:42 -0800

This is a really interesting parable actually because it can be used by both sides in any really heated dispute. I mean, the 4/5 light thing is an easy lob, simply quantitative. But, when you get to counting protestors [we know there were more than twelve, but less than 50,000] or even more complex issues like whether the economy is doing badly, each side can say NO THERE'S FOUR LIGHTS and think they're right. It's a subtle shift, but you can see it happening, quantity to quality. The other side can then cry brainwashing, and you're back to sqaure one. It seems to be more of an exercise in claiming the moral high ground than any real eye-opening tool of oppressors or freedom fighters. More to the point, what was it you'd like to discuss holloway, anything in particular?

By: WolfDaddy

WolfDaddy — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:49:55 -0800

I see two dolphins.

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:04:38 -0800

"Sure, there are five lights. If by 'five' you mean 'four.'"

By: wendell

wendell — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:47:30 -0800

There can't be five lights. Light bulbs come in packages of four. There are, however, ten hot dogs and eight buns.

By: zerofoks

zerofoks — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:06:37 -0800

I see one big mass of derailment deluxe.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:08:41 -0800

I see more lights than I can count.

By: Dillenger69

Dillenger69 — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:32:01 -0800

I only see one light ... oops, I left my glasses off.

By: balinx

balinx — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:36:08 -0800

I see dead lights.

By: davidchess

davidchess — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:37:54 -0800

Reading that essay I had the same thought: change just a few words and it could be a Christian talking about how hard it is to resist the pressures of the secular world. There are various tools (like stories intended to show how important it is to Stand Up For Your Beliefs) that can be used by a wide variety of different meme-complexes to innoculate their carriers against subversion...

By: shoepal

shoepal — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:42:00 -0800

2+2=5

By: lasthrsman

lasthrsman — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:55:23 -0800

I see a thousand points of light. Oh, wait, wrong Bush regime.

By: weston

weston — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:14:37 -0800

Of course the opposite of this would be Plato and his Cave. He would argue you shouldn't trust what you see.(as the ultimate reality) Maybe there are five lights. If I am ever captured and interrogated, this will be what I tell my captors. (I'll follow with a discourse on Platonic forms, and maybe we'll even get into some Socratic dialogue!)

By: mdn

mdn — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:27:51 -0800

change just a few words and it could be a Christian talking about how hard it is to resist the pressures of the secular world. christians themselves preach that you have to have faith that the fifth light exists, even though it's invisible, etc etc. Religious belief is not based on immediate perception, so I don't think this parable would work that way around. But Jessamyn's right; with many things it could be traded back and forth - it's hard to get a good view of the lights.

By: beth

beth — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:32:24 -0800

Just cross your eyes and lose focus a little bit, and you can make some of the lights overlap and count 'em as three or whatever. No problemo.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:05:12 -0800

I have intelligence, ability, charm, and ambition. I could wrap this town around my finger if I wanted to. But first, I have to answer the question, "How many lights do you see?" I think he is wrong on this point. -- Also, I think perhaps two of the lights are placed in very close proximity, and the exact number of seperate light sorces is obscured by the corona.

By: dg

dg — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:28:42 -0800

beth, I see like that all the time. But there are still four lights. Now zap me baby, zap me!

By: mhjb

mhjb — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:33:18 -0800

I've never really thought about what it would be for non-xian to live in a thoroughly xian town. That kind of situation can't really happen in my country (New Zealand). Cheers for the interesting link.

By: Guy Smiley

Guy Smiley — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:31:10 -0800

One, two...uh.... Many! There are many lights!

By: MarkO

MarkO — Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:50:02 -0800

The first link was a powerful, well written, intelligent story. The second link sucked.