the civics of history

May 1, 2003 6:53 PM

Welcome to 2003. A quiet Southern high school south of Atlanta once again holds seperate white and black proms. "I cried," said McCrary, who is black. "The black juniors said, 'Our prom is open to everyone. If you want to come, come.'"
posted by The Jesse Helms (136 comments total)

As the black junior class president, her son helped organize the open-to-all prom. The class also has a white president.

Holy shit. That's just about all I can say. Jesse, I dunno if you're actually down there, but... does this kind of thing actually still happen? I mean... holy shit!

Pardon my Freedom.
posted by soyjoy at 7:09 PM on May 1, 2003

I'm sickened, disgusted... and humbled. I've long believed, based on my life experience growing up in the midwest, that racism was virtually a thing of the past. Though the exception might prove the rule, I am also now forced to concede that I just might be wrong.
posted by gd779 at 7:09 PM on May 1, 2003

You're kidding. I thought you guys got this shit sorted out in the 60's?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:18 PM on May 1, 2003

I went to a segregated prom in 1991. It was for the school my girlfriend went to. Her class and the class below her were 85% black. We were in the minority. The junior class of her highschool put on a regular prom at the high school auditorium.

The white juniors and seniors formed the "Junior Club", paid dues and had their own prom, on the same night, at a church hall down the street.

It was one of the silliest things I've ever been to. Fourty couples dancing in a poorly decorated hall with sagging roof tiles. Fourty couples, thirty-nine Tux-n-Boots combinations. Bad music. Bad food. After twenty minutes, I was ready to leave, but the chance at seeing someone puke on their date kept me there.

I was disheartened to hear that twelve years later they still have two proms. Except that the 2003 prom for the "Junior Club" will be held at someone's home, since they can't afford to rent a hall.
posted by ColdChef at 7:19 PM on May 1, 2003

*cough* de facto segregation *cough*
Happens every day in every city in this nation.
posted by shoepal at 7:23 PM on May 1, 2003

*get's up from computer. runs screaming from the room.*
posted by photoslob at 7:25 PM on May 1, 2003

Oddly enough Georgia is a foreign country.

Here in Eugene, Oregon where I have plenty of gay or bi friends, it seems odd that racial separation is even an issue. The mere thought of having a *black* and a *white* president is shocking. Hint to those people living in places of oppressive segregation: move. (While it is still a free country.)
posted by woil at 7:27 PM on May 1, 2003

Well, what do you know. Some things can still shock Mefites.

...I just might be wrong.

You were. Sorry it took something this outrageous to make you see that.
posted by hippugeek at 7:29 PM on May 1, 2003

...
posted by dejah420 at 7:38 PM on May 1, 2003

Welcome to good ol' backward Georgia! But I got news for y'all if you think this is bad. Alabama and Mississippi are worse!
posted by mischief at 7:44 PM on May 1, 2003

Hint to those people living in places of oppressive segregation: move.

Or, you know, you could scream and raise a ruckus and, if not make these people see what fucking idiots they are, embarass 'em by showing the rest of the world.
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:44 PM on May 1, 2003

I'd say America is a lot more backward than I thought, but, the BNP (British National Party; racist scum unite) is making significant "progress" over here in the UK, in the local council elections.

It's sickening the ignorance and hatred that exists in so many people.
posted by Blue Stone at 7:44 PM on May 1, 2003

*head hits desk*
shoepal- you are right. Look at any high school lunch room.
posted by oflinkey at 7:46 PM on May 1, 2003

I should say (and not as a defense of the segregation or anything) that the whole "reason" behind having a separate prom was that since majority ruled at my girlfriend's high school, the junior class always hired a black dj who never played any country music, year after year. And so...the "Junior Club" was born.

So, you tell me. What do you do when the minority feels their voice isn't being heard?
posted by ColdChef at 7:48 PM on May 1, 2003

you are right. Look at any high school lunch room.
Oh, come on. We're not all that bad.
posted by punishinglemur at 7:48 PM on May 1, 2003

ColdChef: If they want a different DJ, fine. But why does that mean they have to exclude black people from coming? Why not just say, hey, we've got a different DJ. Show up if ya want. Instead of throwing up the ol' NO BLACKS sign.
posted by punishinglemur at 7:49 PM on May 1, 2003

News?

Race-based alliances or groups shouldn't control or arrange student functions.

Unfortunately there are many who disagree, and in fact encourage divisiveness based on the racist and psychotic venom of "multiculturalism". That's wrong too.

More thoughts on Western Civilization from Michael S. Berliner, and Walter Williams.
posted by hama7 at 7:51 PM on May 1, 2003

ColdChef: If they want a different DJ, fine. But why does that mean they have to exclude black people from coming? Why not just say, hey, we've got a different DJ. Show up if ya want. Instead of throwing up the ol' NO BLACKS sign.

Well, the prom I went to wasn't exclusionary to blacks, it was exclusionary in that only members of the "Junior Club" could attend. Of which, there were no black members. Black students were never denied (to my knowledge), the just didn't care to join. Who would? A shitty prom that costs twice as much or a school-sponsored prom with a dj playing the music you want to hear?

No contest.
posted by ColdChef at 7:59 PM on May 1, 2003

What do ya know, multiculturalism at work.

* pukes in waste basket *
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:01 PM on May 1, 2003

Just a note to the folks who like to blame things on multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism -
1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.

Including several cultures would result in a non-segregated prom. Encouraging interest in many cultures, rather than only the majority culture, would result in a non-segregated prom. Note, also, that no-where in that definition does it mention race, rather than culture.
posted by Jimbob at 8:13 PM on May 1, 2003

ColdChef: Thanks for clarifying that. I was about to ask if it was because of the music, and was worried people would call me a racist.

This Georgia story is pretty shocking, but denial of racism is just that: denial. Even saying that there is such a thing as racism can get someone branded a racist today. People are extremely racist, and do not want to know about it. The usual response is, "Well, I don't know who you're hanging around with, but I never hear any white people say racist shit like that. You must be hanging out with a bunch of racists!"
posted by son_of_minya at 8:14 PM on May 1, 2003

"Or, you know, you could scream and raise a ruckus"

We tried that, but you can't embarass or shame some people.
I moved.
When my grandma passes, I'll have no reason to return to the south, and good riddance. And I'm sure they're glad to be rid of my liberal "nigger-lover" ass.
Yes, they still say that.
posted by 2sheets at 8:17 PM on May 1, 2003

!

Someone fetch the clue-by-four. Georgia needs a whoppin' laid on it.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:18 PM on May 1, 2003

Welcome to good ol' backward Georgia!
Georgia needs a whoppin' laid on it.

These sorts of comments are as backwards as the racists that run segregated proms. This is about a city, not a state, and if you think it's appropriate to generalize the entire state and its inhabitants then you have your own profiling issues that need to be worked through.

The school has 439 students, 232 of them black.

Yea. That's an excellent gauge of the mentality of a state's population. Now, I will accept that the majority of the press points toward the outspoken idiots of Georgia, but if such stereotypes are appropriate then I imagine New York must be entirely populated by pimps and neurotics, and L.A. must be wholly peopled by out of work actors.
posted by cachilders at 8:30 PM on May 1, 2003

Just a note to the folks who like to blame things on multiculturalism.

I assume you're referring to me, as I'm the only one who mentioned multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism -
1. Of, relating to, or including several cultures.
2. Of or relating to a social or educational theory that encourages interest in many cultures within a society rather than in only a mainstream culture.

Thanks for the pointer; I wouldn't have ever thought to look in the dictionary. Of course, the definition you provide is quite innocuous, and fails to capture the racism inherent in the rhetoric of multiculturalism thrown around, particularly on college campuses. Multiculturalism, the movement, as opposed to multiculturalism, the definition, is determined to legitimate group identification, particularly along racial lines, and to denigrate the importance of individual normative decisions about merit and ability.

Including several cultures would result in a non-segregated prom. Encouraging interest in many cultures, rather than only the majority culture, would result in a non-segregated prom. Note, also, that no-where in that definition does it mention race, rather than culture.

If only it were so.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:42 PM on May 1, 2003

Uh, seems to me this cuts both ways. It's analogous to the current talk about an Islamic state in Iraq: people will sometimes choose to use their freedoms (constitutional or otherwise) to create an environment other people will find deplorable.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:54 PM on May 1, 2003

From the article: "[...] in part because they wanted to avoid problems arising from interracial dating."

Problems such as interracial marriages, or (god forbid) Racially Impure Children?

Won't somebody please think of the children?
posted by spazzm at 9:05 PM on May 1, 2003

Unfortunately there are many who disagree, and in fact encourage divisiveness based on the racist and psychotic venom of "multiculturalism". That's wrong too.

hama7, I was a member of a Filipino student group in college, although I am not Filipino. I have a firm handle on what constitutes "racist venom," and it had no presence in the actions and spirit of the organization.
posted by eddydamascene at 9:06 PM on May 1, 2003

Hama7 and monju_bosatsu, are you really laying the blame for situations like this on organizations like campus BSU's and the like? Don't you think that the kind of racism and separatist sentiment that are evident in this prom story seriously predate the rise of racially-specific student groups on campus? Don't you think this kind of racism, by and large, predates the very presence of non-white students in general on campus?

I think the radical politics preached by many campus racially-specific student groups is often divisive and over the top. But you're tarring an awful lot of organizations and people with a very large brush. Not all such organizations are radical. Many organizations, even the radical ones, have been positive forces for broadening the perspective represented in college (and even K-12) curricula. And finally, despite the Right's attempt to demonize multiculturalism (cf. Lynne Cheney, George Will, Newt Gingrich), there is much more to the multiculturalist ideal than the racial politics of student unions. There has been at least as much "bringing together" as there has been "tearing apart" - but you have to look beyond the student newspapers to find it.
posted by Chanther at 9:06 PM on May 1, 2003

but if such stereotypes are appropriate then I imagine New York must be entirely populated by pimps and neurotics, and L.A. must be wholly peopled by out of work actors.

There's a lot of out of work actors in New York as well.
posted by the fire you left me at 9:08 PM on May 1, 2003

The legacy of Jim Crow seems to me the more likely culprit here than multiculturalism. You know, they haven't been having integrated proms in some of these small towns for many years at all. You can't just pass legislation and start congratulating yourself for ending racism. Racial division has been a part of our society for hundreds of years, and is very much with us nearly 150 years after the Civil War. As someone observed above, most white people will exert themselves to avoid facing this, and are very reluctant to engage in discourse about race.
posted by crunchburger at 9:14 PM on May 1, 2003

hama7, I was a member of a Filipino student group in college, although I am not Filipino. I have a firm handle on what constitutes "racist venom," and it had no presence in the actions and spirit of the organization.

I was involved with the Native American Student Assoc. (of which maybe half the members had any significant NA blood) and the Latin-American Cultural Society at my school, although I'm far from either (okay, I think my grandmother's grandmother on my dad's side was Cherokee, but that's beside the point). All of the ethnice associations that I've encountered have been more than willing to share their cultural heritage with anyone. In fact, most would extend invitations on numerous occasions to do so.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:19 PM on May 1, 2003

This is about a city, not a state, and if you think it's appropriate to generalize the entire state and its inhabitants then you have your own profiling issues that need to be worked through.

Do you live even live in Georgia (and Atlanta does NOT count unless you get out of there on a regular basis to the boonies)? Racism is far from dead where in the south, as I have some friends in rural areas who are racist a'holes who i want to shoot on site. Then again, I also go to the University of Georgia where there is a huge problem concerning the under-representation of the black population (considering how many blacks do live in Georgia and more specifically Atlanta, this is a very valid point). Plus, we also have the fraternity life with a bunch of red-necks who go around with their confederate flags. And before I'm branded as stereotyping, I've met a lot of the frat boys down here and a large majority of them have are racist in some sort and it sucks.
posted by jmd82 at 9:27 PM on May 1, 2003

Inded, Ufez, that's the idea of multiculturalism. Fear of some twisted definition of "multiculturalism" has been spreading in conservative circles around the world for some time, and I can't for the life of me understand why. For a start, hama7 ought to embrace multiculturalism as it stands in direct opposition to the practices of communism. The Soviets weren't multiculturalists. Jews, Muslims and Orthodox Christians were assimilated. Nomadic tribes were assimilated. Minority ethnic groups were assimilated into a single, unicultural Russian ideal.

To oppose multiculturalism is to embrace assimilation - the idea there there is one "true" culture, and anyone who doesn't change their lifestyle and identity to fit that cookie-cutter image is a traitor to the national identity. Hardly an elightened situation. For those to work in multicultural environments, the advantages are obvious - I guess for those who oppose multiculturalism in order to defend the integrity of the majority national identify it can look like a pretty scary thing. Personaly, I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted by Jimbob at 9:31 PM on May 1, 2003

Do you live even live in Georgia (and Atlanta does NOT count unless you get out of there on a regular basis to the boonies)?

Yes. I've lived in such cosmopolitan areas as: Stockbridge, Conyers, Rome, Covington, Snellville and Marietta.

Racism is far from dead where in the south, as I have some friends in rural areas who are racist a'holes who i want to shoot on site.

This is a point that cannot be denied, but one that remains true from sea to shining sea.(Yes, I have lived elsewhere: Arizona, California, Oregon, Florida, and Virginia)

Then again, I also go to the University of Georgia where there is a huge problem concerning the under-representation of the black population (considering how many blacks do live in Georgia and more specifically Atlanta, this is a very valid point).

I am curious whether you believe quotas might solve this issue. Considering the number of good schools in our university system, including GA Tech and GA State, both of which stand within the metro area (versus UGA in Athens), I'm not particularly surprised by the shortage of black students out your way. I think a fairer judgement of representation would be to investigate the ratio of minority students to white students in the various graduate schools on your campus. I don't know this number, but I bet it's more level, considering the volume of highly educated minority members in the Atlanta area.

Plus, we also have the fraternity life with a bunch of red-necks who go around with their confederate flags. And before I'm branded as stereotyping, I've met a lot of the frat boys down here and a large majority of them have are racist in some sort and it sucks.

At the risk of sounding equally stereotypical, I can't offer much of an argument about your frat boys. Still, such individuals don't represent the great majority of Georgia, and even within their numbers, I'm sure you could find a surprising percentage of folks with views more closely related to your own.
posted by cachilders at 9:58 PM on May 1, 2003

Good points, cachilders. I am at the disadvantage of having really only lived in Georgia, so you do have more expertise than me.
I think a fairer judgement of representation would be to investigate the ratio of minority students to white students in the various graduate schools on your campus.
If I may ask, how come judge the graduate schools sinse they compose a small portion of the student body here? UGA may technically be considered a research institution, but is still known as an undergraduate school. Though I don't have statistsics at my fingertips, I would guess that GT had a higher graduate-school percentage than UGA. Based on my math, chemistry, and computer science classes, the ratio of minority students in graduate studies is much higher than undergraduate classes. A large majority of the TA's in all the general sciences (I hate English stuff, so don't ask) are from the far east and cannot speak of lick of English. At the same time, I have had one black TA, one white TA, and I think four Asian TA's in 2 years here.
posted by jmd82 at 10:22 PM on May 1, 2003

And as a side note, I don't like the idea of quotas. I think people should not get in based on their skin color, religion, legacy, etc. Base it purely on their own achievements. While the lack of blacks here (and it is more than just a shortage) is very appearant just by looking at my classes, I don't really know if is a PROBLEM. I mean, if blacks don't want to come here or can't get in based on their applications regardless of race, then thats the way it is (without bringing up the cycle of poverty and stuff like that which could result right now). As long as UGA (that includes both students and the school system) isn't actively detering black from enrolling here, I don't see a problem with it. Though, I'll admit the extreme lack of blacks here is a deterant to blacks (or any minority) who applies here. I think the best way is for UGA to actively seek out minorities in HS and try to get them to come to UGA, but come application time, give them no special bonuses. Wow, I need sleep!
posted by jmd82 at 10:29 PM on May 1, 2003

Part of the price of freedom is that we must tolerate people who's views we find abhorrent and they must tolerate us. Let the kids that want to have an all white prom have their all white prom. Someday, they'll have to move into the big, bad workforce where they're going to need to learn to work successfully for and with people of all races, religions and cultures (and listen to all sorts of different music). Then, they can judge for themselves whether segregation served them well or not. In my experience, sticking with an antiquated way of doing things doesn't prepare you for the modern world. Of course, maybe they'll never have to live in the modern world.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:26 PM on May 1, 2003

When my grandma passes, I'll have no reason to return to the south, and good riddance. And I'm sure they're glad to be rid of my liberal "nigger-lover" ass.
Yes, they still say that.

Racism is far from dead where in the south, as I have some friends in rural areas who are racist a'holes who i want to shoot on site.

I'm amazed with the sweeping statements people use for the south, or basically, the white south, though I know I shouldn't be, especially on metafilter.

Yes, there is racism in the south, and maybe, due to many reasons, more than other areas. However, it's everywhere, right in the back yard of everyone here shaking their heads at the backwards south.

The first time I visited california it took 12 hours before I heard the N word. I've also visited small towns in the north that are as white as snow and they'd like to keep it that way.

I'm sure it's easy to look at the south and shake your head at something like this, while ignoring what goes on in your own part of the country. If it makes you feel better, great, but your only showing your own ignorance.
posted by justgary at 11:34 PM on May 1, 2003

Sigh. This is neither the thread not the site get into a whole argument about affirmative action (though email if you'd like to do that), but I hate to see myths about it go publicly unchallenged. Three quick notes:

without bringing up the cycle of poverty and stuff like that which could result right now

I'm not sure what the second half of that sentence means, but it's impossible to discuss affirmative action without considering the cycle of poverty. That's exactly what affirmative action was designed to break.

...I don't like the idea of quotas.

Hardly anyone does. It is currently illegal to use numerical quotas for college admissions in the U.S. (the most they can do is set "goals"), and believe me, colleges go out of their way to comply.

I think the best way is for UGA to actively seek out minorities in HS and try to get them to come to UGA, but come application time, give them no special bonuses.

That's pretty much what happens. The idea isn't to hold majority and minority students to different standards, but to make sure that the applicant pool has enough high-power minority applicants that there will be minorities who are at least as well-qualified as the majority applicants. A condensed explanation, but I hope it made sense. Elaboration available upon request.

And amen, justgary. I'm at a northeastern liberal school that prides itself on a history of diversity and tolerance, and I swear I've seen more incidents of overt racism here than I ever did at my small-town Virginia high school. I'm not idealizing the situation there (I used the word "overt" for a reason), but people needn't get on a high horse about the backwards South.
posted by hippugeek at 12:14 AM on May 2, 2003

the idea there there is one "true" culture

If you live in the United States that culture is western culture, which among all its wonderful achievements and contributions to humankind, has made discrimination on the basis of skin color illegal.

I think you can actually find a link between Marxism, "multiculturalism" and "political correctness", in that they each seek to "usurp the moral and intellectual infrastructure of the West", and are every bit as divisive and destructive as Maoism or Stalinism.

The Real Problem With Multiculturalism - by Robert Locke
posted by hama7 at 12:20 AM on May 2, 2003

uh, racism isn't exclusively a Southern thing. I'm just sayin'.

(On preview, what justgary and hippugeek said.)

I'm a Southerner, and when I went to school in upstate NY, I encountered someone who said they hated the South because they were all so prejudiced down there. (!)
posted by Vidiot at 12:31 AM on May 2, 2003

Umm... how exactly did the subject get switched to affirmative action in a story about segregated highschool proms?

Colour me confused.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:43 AM on May 2, 2003

Hippu's 252nd law: Any discussion even tangentally related to race and schools will eventually come around to affirmative action.

Here's the switch.

I'm truly sorry to have contibuted to the rerouting. Maybe I should have just emailed jmd82, but I felt that a public reply was acceptable in this case.
posted by hippugeek at 1:05 AM on May 2, 2003

I think that...
posted by Witty at 1:09 AM on May 2, 2003

Jesus christ you're stupid, hama7. Fundamentally stupid. Tell me, are good ol' boys hanging some nigger from a tree for looking at a white woman- that some how a lot better than that confounded "Red Menace" of multiculturalism? You sincerely believe that tolerance for the lifestyles and values of others, when it is of no harm or consequence to ourselves, and an embracing of the rich diversity and endless pageantry that is human life is somehow in league with Stalin?! No one said you had to engage in every culture- simply respect that most cultures have something to offer, if not to you than to others. But I guess simple respect is too Herculean a task for you.

You, and your authority-fellatrix heroes at those neo-con tabloids you soil your already febrile mind with, oughtta plant some corn with all the straw men you lug around. Like flat-earthers and Creationists, you fear what you cannot possibly understand. That fpm article was gibberish, an addle-brained hodge-podge of rhetorical nonsense that showed no understand of the ideas of compassion or tolerance. It replaces multiculturalism with the twisted warped version seen in the mirror of neo-con neurosis, then attacks that- unsurprisingly- as hollow, contradictory, and violent. Huge shock there- you looked into the abyss of your own soul, and found bottomless darkness. But don't pin that on the rest of us, nutboy.

If you live in the United States that culture is western culture, which among all its wonderful achievements and contributions to humankind, has made discrimination on the basis of skin color illegal.

Plenty in this country, and I'd count you among them, would be quite happy if we repealed those laws and brought segregation and racism back into the folds of the flag. But those of us with a little more Insight would argue that the redeemable element of the US is not its Stepford brand, racist "western culture" that practiced eugenics on a level that left Hitler impressed because of 'scientific proof' that black people were physically and mentally and morally inferior than white folk. Rather, it's the "meta" culture that was less concerned with pud-whacking jingoistic nationalism and more oncerned with allowing individual cultures to flourish, to establishing freedoms to ensure any type of culture- indeed, multiple cultures- could flourish so that every individual was free to pursue happiness in the way they saw fit.

God, I fucking hate you.
posted by hincandenza at 1:20 AM on May 2, 2003

Jesus, hincandenza, a little knee-jerky tonight?
Get ahold of yourself kid.
posted by Espoo2 at 1:54 AM on May 2, 2003

MeTa.
posted by Vidiot at 1:56 AM on May 2, 2003

This is about a city, not a state, and if you think it's appropriate to generalize the entire state and its inhabitants then you have your own profiling issues that need to be worked through.

Talk about denial! ... and you even lived in Georgia, the state that will now continue to fly a Confederate flag regardless of how the state political machine shakes it out (with the added bonus of the blatant slap in the face "In god we trust"). How can racism be fought if you deny how ingrown it remains?

I think the best way is for UGA to actively seek out minorities in HS and try to get them to come to UGA

From what I recall, the university system does this but with historically black Clark Atlanta University nestled in Atlanta, few black students want to apply to 'some redneck agricultural college'. That may change (a bit) now that Morris Brown has lost its accreditation.
posted by mischief at 2:19 AM on May 2, 2003

For the record, the greatest thing about America is that we are all Americans, regadless of class or race. Not hyphenated-Americans. Americans.

I think the sooner that divisive race-based policies and institutions are abandoned (for everybody) the less we'll see incidents like this post highlights. And that does mean that we, as willful participants in Western Culture and the excellence and historical advances that it embodies, have responsibilities to preserve and protect the culture and its benefits that apply to all of us.
posted by hama7 at 2:41 AM on May 2, 2003

the ideas of compassion or tolerance

So, when will these 'morals' be legislated into the fabric of the US?
posted by mischief at 2:46 AM on May 2, 2003

Actually the greatest thing about America is that if you want to be a so-called 'hyphenated-American' you can. America as a country is the sum of its parts, those parts being teh cultures and knowledge of those who came over from other parts of the world. It's not a static thing, and assimilation doesn't help America grow, it would only stifle it the way European nations have been.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:46 AM on May 2, 2003

it would only stifle it the way European nations have been.

I think you mean the stifling results of socialism, a different, but not unrelated beast.

See also: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, France, et cetera.
posted by hama7 at 4:39 AM on May 2, 2003

Ummm.. yeah. Sure.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:53 AM on May 2, 2003

Talk about denial! ... and you even lived in Georgia, the state that will now continue to fly a Confederate flag regardless of how the state political machine shakes it out (with the added bonus of the blatant slap in the face "In god we trust"). How can racism be fought if you deny how ingrown it remains?

Once again, I do not deny the existence of racists any more than I deny the existence of out of work actors. I am arguing against the use of a stereotype like those cited against a state which, let's face it, comprises one of the largest black populations in America. It is easy for people who live in Kansas to categorize an entire state's population based on what is seen in the news, but considering the past I'd say we've come a very long way. Feel free to bring up the state flag, it pisses me off too, but you're only marginalizing and making statements no less stereotypical than the racist one's mentioned on this thread. Then again, maybe you're right. Maybe these polititians do speak for everyone in Georgia, just like Bush speaks for every American. Gosh, I guess I really missed the boat on this one.
posted by cachilders at 5:20 AM on May 2, 2003

'the stifling results of socialism'

hama7, it's funny because you believe it's true.
posted by asok at 5:28 AM on May 2, 2003

You missed the boat alright. The promise of a state referendum to return the Battle Cross as the state flag is what put current governor Perdue in office.

Also in terms of backward, generally speaking, Georgia continues to place at or near the bottom of all lists concerning quality of education.
posted by mischief at 5:31 AM on May 2, 2003

I think the sooner that divisive race-based policies and institutions are abandoned (for everybody) the less we'll see incidents like this post highlights.

You just can't wish away the institution of racism, hama7. The deck is far too stacked, and has been throughout USA history, to believe that it will take care of itself.
posted by adampsyche at 5:54 AM on May 2, 2003

You missed the boat alright. The promise of a state referendum to return the Battle Cross as the state flag is what put current governor Perdue in office.

So that's what every Georgian wanted? Good call. I didn't recognize that Perdue was elected by a 100% vote. Considering the number of historically liberal districts in Georgia, I find this revelation shocking, but, OK, you're probably right.
posted by cachilders at 6:04 AM on May 2, 2003

I think you mean the stifling results of socialism, a different, but not unrelated beast.

See also: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, France, et cetera.

hama7, what are you talking about? I don't understand what you're refering to when you say that these countries are being stifled by socialism. How so? Can you give me some examples?

this isn't a snark. I really want to know your reasoning
posted by ashbury at 6:14 AM on May 2, 2003

(pauses at microphone)

Just so you know, I'm ashamed the president of this student Government is from Georgia.

(now can I have a multi-million dollar record deal?)

Yeah, I'm living in Georgia. Yeah, we have stupid backwards racist people from here. We also have some pretty amazing people who have done an incredible amount to end racism who are from here (anyone remember this guy?). I'd say, we come out okay when you put it all together. Check your state in the list of hate crimes incidents before you weigh in. You may put down that stone when you see the glass around you.

If you're actually curious about the way that race relations in the south are different than those in the North, two book recommendations for you - one by Gary Pomerantz, one by good ole Jimmy himself. Race relations are definitely different in the south, and these make fascinating explorations of that fact.
posted by JoshBerman at 6:45 AM on May 2, 2003

I really want to know your reasoning

Taxation at or above half a year's wage per person (who chooses to work) or higher. Statist command-style economy.

I would like to be wrong, but people in the aforementioned countries are so busy taxing themselves silly in order to pay for substandard education and socialist health care, they scarcely have time to make a living.

I hope I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong. Please ask an Australian about taxes or a Brit about how much money they save each month.

It's shockin'.
posted by hama7 at 6:54 AM on May 2, 2003

So, one question i still have about the article, is the "white only" Prom something that is school-sanctioned? It didn't seem to say in the article (the closest thing I saw was "but a small number of whites said they also wanted a private party"). If it's a bunch of parents paying for a private party off school grounds (for whatever reasons), how much could the school do about it anyway?
posted by stifford at 6:55 AM on May 2, 2003

Private health insurance, sky-high housing and private college costs are, of course, not stifling.

/reality distortion field in full effect.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:58 AM on May 2, 2003

Back to the original post, I think a lot of people have completely misread this article to indicate that there is something special about this town in Georgia. There is something special happening: Juniors are charged with planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance — the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county 150 miles south of Atlanta.
The other "prom" is a private party. Private, segregated parties and clubs are actually rather common across North America, Europe and the world and if you feel that this is something that only happens is rural Georgia, you are completely ignorant of your surroundings. Chances are almost every single one of the people writing into this site has attended such a party or gone to such an establishment. Next time you are out at a party, or a club or at church or the hair salon or a restaurant or movie theatre or a bar, look around you. Its not necessarily that people of other races wouldn't be welcome, but would they stand out? If you don't have places like that in your town, you just haven't found them or you just don't realize when you're there, but they are. Also present in every town are the places that are more insidious, where different people are met with open hostility and those are there too, the whites only or men only golf club, the white masonic lodge and the black masonic lodge, that seedy pool hall on the run down corner. So in place of berating these kids in Georgia that are actually bravely holding their school's first fully integrated prom because a group of them choose to attend a private party where black students might feel uncomfortable, why don't you worry about those events in your own neighborhood.

And Mischief, before any more pots call any more kettles black Welcome to good ol' backward Georgia! But I got news for y'all if you think this is bad. Alabama and Mississippi are worse! I call HORSE SHIT on you.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:04 AM on May 2, 2003

Oh, and shit was supposed to link here.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:06 AM on May 2, 2003

hama7:

I hope I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong. Please ask an Australian about taxes or a Brit about how much money they save each month.

How about asking an American how much money they save each month?

"The stifling effects of capitalism?"

On preview: What Space Coyote said.
posted by son_of_minya at 7:10 AM on May 2, 2003

Private health insurance, sky-high housing and private college costs are, of course, not stifling.

College costs are a choice, depending on where you want to go to school, housing is a choice (believe me), depending on where you want to live, and health insurance is fully dependent on the type of coverage you want, not what the state (or government) decides you should have.

You have to work hard to make a living, and shouldn't expect jack dookie to be handed to you.
posted by hama7 at 7:22 AM on May 2, 2003

Here in Eugene, Oregon . . . , it seems odd that racial separation is even an issue.

Of course it seems odd; everyone (or nearly everyone--based on the 2000 Census, 88%) is White (as opposed to 65% in GA). There's nobody to be racist against. Yes, there are only 6 identified hate groups in Oregon compared to 31 in Georgia, but there are 42 times more people to hate in Georgia. It works out to 1 hate group for every 9275 African Americans in Oregon, compared to 1 for every 75791 African Americans in Georgia; that is, there's 8 times more hate in Oregon than in Georgia.

Ain't statistics fun?

My point? Only that racial relations in Eugene, or other lily-white areas, simply cannot be compared to those in Georgia, or the American South in general. As JoshBerman notes above, most of the civil rights activists also have been from the South. It's because, to paraphrase the bank robber, that's where the races are.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:32 AM on May 2, 2003

Hey, I'm an Australian, and the system is great. It works well. Poverty is low, most people get by, we live in a free, peaceful, vibrant country. I've never had those scary, socialist, state-controlled secret police come down on my arse. I'm well off, healthy, freee to do as I wish, well educated, as are most people I know. The people who aren't doing so well are making every effort they can, grateful of the assistance of welfare and government services of various forms, without which a couple of my friends would probably be dead. It just works, and it's the dominant system in all successful countries.

The current blend of state funding of public institutions and services, coupled with free enterprise and capitalism works. It might be different by degrees; northern Europe swings more towards the high-tax side, America more towards the free market side, and Australia, Canada etc. lie in the middle. It's a system that's generally proved successful in all the wealthy countries, and I constantly wonder what dreadful impact it has had on you, hama7, to make you fear it so much. Demanding a swing towards complete, dog-eat-dog, hand-of-Adam-Smith neolibertarianism is as stupid an idea as demanding a shift towards communism (although apparently the difference between communism and the status-quo still eludes you). you claim health insurance should be a choice - and it is! I don't know who told you it isn't! In Australia we've got at least two dozen different private health insurance providers that our Stalinist government allows exist.

The same goes for multiculturalism - it's enhanced my life. I work in an office along side a German, a Mexican, an Iranian, a Malaysian, a Canadian and an Argentinian. We revel in each other's cultures and customs. The completely homogenous, white-bread society you appear to advocate would be a living hell.
posted by Jimbob at 7:34 AM on May 2, 2003

hama7, tax is v. complicated depending on how much you earn and deduct, but a single person earning GBP 35,000 (at the top end of the 22% bracket) can pay about the same tax as a US person earning USD 56,000. UK taxes seem higher but go to one body, whereas US taxes seem lower but go to two (federal and state). Also while UK sales tax is higher (17.5%), US pays sales tax (7.5%) on food, books, etc., whereas UK doesn't. I've lived in both and feel like the govt. grabs a similar proportion in each country.

UK income = GBP 35,000 (USD 56,223)
Personal allowance = GBP 4,615
Net income = GBP 30,385 (USD 48,780)
Tax at 22% = 6,685
Net income = 23,700 (USD 38,047)
Basic dental/health care = free
VAT (not on food or books, newspapers) = 17.5%

US income = USD 56,223 (GBP 35,000)
Personal allowance = USD 3,000 (GBP 1,867)
Net income = USD 53,223
Federal tax (20.1%) = USD 10, 717
Colorado state tax (4.63%) = USD 2,464
Net income = USD 40,042 (c.f. UK net income in dollars = USD 38,047)
Dental (one check up, one filling a year) = USD 500
Health insurance = USD 3,000
Colorado and Boulder County sales tax (includes food and books) = 7.5%
posted by carter at 7:46 AM on May 2, 2003

From what I recall, the university system does this but with historically black Clark Atlanta University nestled in Atlanta, few black students want to apply to 'some redneck agricultural college'. That may change (a bit) now that Morris Brown has lost its accreditation.

Good point, as I've often brought this point up with friends. I mean, talk about racism all you want, but just refer to the lunch table examples from earlier. You may not be a racist, but black or white, its usually a normal human phenomenon to feel more at ease with your fellow skin-colored brothern. Also, UGA is becoming anything but a agricultural college over the past couple years as pretty much any non-technical program rocks the world now, but the stigma of UGA being somewhat of a joke even five years ago is still there. Alas, it being a redneck college is still an image that UGA have to deal with as a few bad people in the frats I was mentioning earlier could make a bad impression on an applicant. As far as the cycle of poverty concerning black is concerned, I am curious: while affirmative action could potentially help to break the cycle for minorities, could it also help to increase the cycle for poor whites whose seat might be given up to let a minority in?
posted by jmd82 at 7:48 AM on May 2, 2003

We revel in each other's cultures and customs.

You must feel so wonderful. Have you ever asked your Iranian friend why he came to Australia? Or Your German friend or your Malaysian friend? Could it be that Australia's western ideals and cultural inclusiveness apply to everyone, regardless of national origin?

Don't you see the point?

Do you think you'd have the same opportunities in Iran, Malaysia or Germany?
posted by hama7 at 7:49 AM on May 2, 2003

MeFi discussion rule #12: all discussions will eventually turn to repeated discussions of the pet topics of the most prolific posters.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:50 AM on May 2, 2003

I hope I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong. Please ask an Australian about taxes or a Brit about how much money they save each month.

These issues can be spun in as many different directions as you can find, but please read this. From Stats Canada, this is an interesting article concerning who actually qualifies as being poor. Another link to low-income stats.

As minya mentioned, there are stifling effects of capitalism, too. I don't think any system exists that is perfect for everybody: much as we would wish otherwise, democracy doesn't speak for every person, socialism let's people slip through the cracks, communism doesn't allow for freedom of expression and individuality, anarchism breeds lalessness.

You have to work hard to make a living, and shouldn't expect jack dookie to be handed to you.

Yet it's been shown that it's a win-win situation for the State to help those who are in need of economic and/or educational assistance. These people often become successful and independent, thus giving back more to the community and society at large than if they remained poor and uneducated.

Enough derail from me. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of racism, Georgia, and how the two are related.
posted by ashbury at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2003

Thanks, carter.
posted by hama7 at 7:53 AM on May 2, 2003

Yet it's been shown that it's a win-win situation for the State to help those who are in need of economic and/or educational assistance

When? Links please?
posted by hama7 at 7:57 AM on May 2, 2003

This is going to sound flippant, but I'm dead serious....

I've just come to accept that a great many people (maybe even a majority) are total fucks and there's nothing I can do about it but try to enjoy my life without the knowledge of their total fuckdom ruining it. So, yeah, a bunch of high school kids in rural Georgia are jackasses, and yeah it sucks and makes me mad, but I can gnash my teeth all day and the world's still going to be full of buttheads who piss me off.
posted by COBRA! at 7:58 AM on May 2, 2003

I was just wondering jimbob, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but what do the Aborigines in your office think about multiculturalism in Australia?
posted by Pollomacho at 8:02 AM on May 2, 2003

The solution is obvious... ban the word "prom" from school textbooks. :P
posted by Foosnark at 8:03 AM on May 2, 2003

College costs are a choice,

Bullshit. Sure, they're a choice, but it's one of those rock/hard place choices if you aren't rich. Ask recent grads how nice those student loans are. Ask non-rich parents how they are going to pay for a college education when the cost of tuition rises way beyond the rate of inflation.

and health insurance is fully dependent on the type of coverage you want, not what the state (or government) decides you should have.

Why, what a great fucking idea! I think I'll write my employer today and tell them what kind of coverage I want. I'm sure that they'll decide that my request for better coverage is perfectly logical, and I'm sure that they'll jump at the opportunity to give me better coverage.

Get another job, you say? Sure! In fact, if they decline, I think I'll just go ahead and quit, and I'm sure that I'll have a better job in no time.
posted by adampsyche at 8:15 AM on May 2, 2003

Yet it's been shown that it's a win-win situation for the State to help those who are in need of economic and/or educational assistance

When? Links please?

20th century, the south eastern US, case in point. Look at Tennessee circa 1935 vs. 1985, 50 years of educational and economic assistance brought it into the forefront from the hill billy back water it was. How about Atlanta? Oppressive racist regimes lording over a smog filled ghetto, now its the capital of the "New South." More? Washington, DC, once the crime capital of our nation, even the mayor smoking crack, the fed pumps in money for schools and community uplift and DC revitalizes, then the money dries up under Republican tax cuts, check out DC's crime statistics for 2003 vs. 1998 vs. 1993, there is a prime example of direct correlation between funding and recovery and back again. But what does this even remotely have to do with an integrated prom?
posted by Pollomacho at 8:15 AM on May 2, 2003

These sorts of comments are as backwards as the racists that run segregated proms. This is about a city, not a state, and if you think it's appropriate to generalize the entire state and its inhabitants then you have your own profiling issues that need to be worked through.

The city does not exist in a vacuum. Nor does the school. They reflect the values and mores of the culture around them.

Any school or school group that tried to pull a race-banning stunt like that described in the article would be taken up shit creek PDQ where I live. In fact, the idea is so grossly wrong that I doubt anyone here would even conceive the idea.

The students, parents, teachers, and public-at-large must bear some amount of responsibility for what took place. It is, indeed, fair to tar Georgia with a broad brush: it has a culture that made the actions permissible.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:43 AM on May 2, 2003

Canadian versus US Taxes: they're about equal.

And because Canadians get health care & other bennies from their tax dollar, they're actually getting a better bang for their buck.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:45 AM on May 2, 2003

Um, can people stop taking hama7's bait in attempting to turn this thread into a referendum on socialism?

As an attempt to help us get back, I wanna address the "it's not just the south, people are racists all over" meme. Yes, yes they are. I'm from Ohio, and I grew up in a small semi-rural town where racism was the norm. But see, here's the thing. In the midwest, people are at least a little ashamed to be racists, and are careful not to proclaim it too loudly. They aren't, to my knowledge, coming out in favor of official, segregated proms, or electing statewide officials based on outright racist issues like the confederate flag. Sure, there may be racism inherent in some of the issues, but not crap like this in Georgia and South Carolina. I've also lived in the South and spent time driving through various parts of it over many years, and I could provide plenty of anecdotes.

Of course it's not true of every member of a population - who doesn't get this? - but in terms of the general population, the trend seems to be:

American = Racist
Southern American = Defiantly racist
posted by soyjoy at 8:47 AM on May 2, 2003

When I attended Oak Hill High School in Oak Hill, West Virginia, we had a "Miss OHHS" (the Homecoming Queen) and a "Miss Black OHHS." This was in 1985. Miss Black OHHS came about in response to complaints from black students that no Miss OHHS had ever been non-white in the seventy-some-odd year history of the school. Miss OHHS also had a "court", though Miss Black OHHS was not allotted one; or maybe Miss Black OHHS was a member of Miss OHHS's court. I'm not too clear on the details. It should be added that no one I knew saw any problem with this nor was it ever commented upon in my hearing.

So the question is, which is worse? Not having a Miss OHHS, or having one? Is it better to receive no special treatment and risk never achieving the high water mark of the surrounding culture, or is it better to get special treatment and always have an asterisk by your name?
posted by vraxoin at 8:50 AM on May 2, 2003

Statist command-style economy.

The UK has been and remains at the cutting edge of deregulation of industry for the last ten years. According to OECD stats the UK is now both the least regulated product market in the developed world, and the nation which exhibits the least degree of state control over trade. When will the US catch up?

Brit about how much money they save each month.

With interest rates as low as they are its a borrowers market, not a savers. Its only good capitalist practice to borrow under these conditions.

Are you and the other colonials some variety of pinko, hama7?
posted by biffa at 8:53 AM on May 2, 2003

Bullshit. Sure, they're a choice, but it's one of those rock/hard place choices if you aren't rich

So it's a class war, huh? Bravo Sierra.

How about Atlanta? Oppressive racist regimes lording over a smog filled ghetto, now its the capital of the "New South."

I like Atlanta a lot, and I have never seen regimes or lording or smog-filled ghettoes.

Anyway, I stand corrected, if that is in fact the case.

It must be a living hell in Atlanta, with all that space and freedom.
posted by hama7 at 9:03 AM on May 2, 2003

Its only good capitalist practice to borrow under these conditions.

Yes, but how much do you save per month? Not borrow.
posted by hama7 at 9:08 AM on May 2, 2003

Shhh.. can't mention that poor people have a tough time of it, else you're a filthy class-warrior.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:11 AM on May 2, 2003

How about Atlanta? Oppressive racist regimes lording over a smog filled ghetto, now its the capital of the "New South."

-------------------------------

I like Atlanta a lot, and I have never seen regimes or lording or smog-filled ghettoes.

Anyway, I stand corrected, if that is in fact the case.

It must be a living hell in Atlanta, with all that space and freedom.

Smog? Check. Ghettoes? Check. But neither of them are terribly prevalent, and the ghettoes I've seen in Atlanta really aren't TOO bad or scary compared with others I've seen.

And Bill Campbell's "regime" proved that black-led city government can be just as corrupt as white-led. (Pity he isn't more like his brother Ralph, NC's long-time state auditor.)

I lived in Atlanta for four years. I like some other places better, but it really wasn't a bad place to live at all.
posted by Vidiot at 9:18 AM on May 2, 2003

Yes, but how much do you save per month? Not borrow.

As I think I said, why would I save under the current interest rate conditions? (Actually, I was paying off an overdraft from my PhD days for most of the last year - I suspect I'd probably be paying off debts for a lot longer if I didn't live in the world's least regulated, least statist socialist state.)
posted by biffa at 9:21 AM on May 2, 2003

In fact, the idea is so grossly wrong that I doubt anyone here would even conceive the idea.

Where would that be? Disneyland?

I like Atlanta a lot, and I have never seen regimes or lording or smog-filled ghettoes.

And you were there in the 50's? That was my point, with funding Atlanta doesn't have as much smog or ghettos nor do the oppressive regimes have as much control, at least on the local level.

In the midwest, people are at least a little ashamed to be racists, and are careful not to proclaim it too loudly.

Horseshit. Plain and simple. On your drive home tonight count the confederate flags on trucks. For every anecdotal incident you've seen in your brief jaunts through the South, I've got ten for the North. I grew up in a small, semi-rural Alabama town and racism was NOT the norm there as it may have been in your Ohio town. You hate and fear what you don't know and in a town with a 50/50 population, you tend to get to know the other 50%, not so much in a 80/20 or 90/10 city. To paraphraze Malcolm X, at least in the old south (the south is now populated with northerners incidentally who came when the economy went sour in the rust belt and boosted in the sun belt) a racist will call you names to your face, you know where someone stands.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:36 AM on May 2, 2003

If you live in the United States that culture is western culture, which among all its wonderful achievements and contributions to humankind, has made discrimination on the basis of skin color illegal.

Complete, utter bullshit, hama7. The United States is and always has been composed of many "cultures", most nobly practicing inclusion rather than exclusion (as many posts pointed out above, none of which you responded to). And if you are somehow trying to imply that the United States (guffaw!) has led us all magically into the world of equality between the races, I think you'd better check into some remedial history right away.

This little incident in Georgia is an ice cube jutting off Antartica, as far as the chill of racism in America goes, and ignorant, despicable American racism is not the result of "multiculturalism" or "political correctness" or "socialism" (which are in fact all remedies to racism, but big threats to the bigoted among us). American racism is the result of good old-fashioned, homegrown, decades-of-discrimination-succeeding-generations-of-slavery-that -had-been-a-fixture-of-"western culture" extending right to the present day.

What an unreal and silly world some live in....where the inhabitants bleat that celebration of more than one culture constitutes racism, that assisting those who still suffer under the yoke of racism is bigotry, and that feeding and curing the poor is oppression.

Big Bro ain't got nothin' on you folks. You wouldn't be trying them same kinda 1984-ish language thingies on us to perpetuate the status quo of racism and economic oppression that keeps a certain segment of America rolling (rolling if you got the complexions for the right connections), now would ya?

I like Atlanta a lot, and I have never seen regimes or lording or smog-filled ghettoes.

As Pollomacho aptly pointed out, you and Atlantans can thank those policies which some no doubt dismiss with a knee-jerk as "socialism" or "multiculturalism" or "politically correct". Any progress on racism in this country sure as hell hasn't come from "conservative" policies, and their supporters (where have you gone, Joe Dimaggio Senator Trent Lott, our nation turns its cross- burning eyes to you...woo woo woo) have almost invariably had to be dragged kicking and screaming (about "multiculturalism" and "affirmative action" and "them goddamned Commie agitators stirring our darkies up - they were happy on them plantations, ya know") into a more just world.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 9:38 AM on May 2, 2003

College costs are a choice

Bullshit. Sure, they're a choice, but it's one of those rock/hard place choices if you aren't rich. Ask recent grads how nice those student loans are. Ask non-rich parents how they are going to pay for a college education when the cost of tuition rises way beyond the rate of inflation.

raises hand in agreement
My parents are pretty wealthy, but they didn't want to give me a silver-spoon and I'm paying for my own college education. Unless you have scholarships, then college is anything but free. In the corrent economy you so love hama7, you need a college education for just about any well paying job and graduate school is becoming even more important (all of which costs are NOT a choice unless you're lucky).
And I've lived in Atlanta the last 17 years and the suburbs are great places to live. And as far as the crappy schools go, usually the farther north you get, you can find decent public schools and there are plenty of good private schools. Though, I sadly don't think that the event in GA is just a chill from an iceburg in GA, but is more prevelant than people are willing to admit, especially when not in metropolitan area like Atlanta.
posted by jmd82 at 9:51 AM on May 2, 2003

The city does not exist in a vacuum. Nor does the school. They reflect the values and mores of the culture around them.

Any school or school group that tried to pull a race-banning stunt like that described in the article would be taken up shit creek PDQ where I live. In fact, the idea is so grossly wrong that I doubt anyone here would even conceive the idea.
posted by cachilders at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2003

Great, foldy, I'm glad you're here. Someone's waiting for you.

Unbelievable, the clout some of you are willing to give forty-some sixteen-year-old kids in Fuckall, Georgia. Obviously, this equates to American = Racist and Southern American = Defiantly racist, right on. How did you put it? Boom! Case closed. Nice work, counselor.

In high school, lots and lots of little things seem like the end all and be all of existence. In Georgia, for these forty kids, it appears to be skin color. For some of you, it reaffirms your obsessive psychotic framework of America=bad. For some of us, it's a sad little tale of a dying meme. Of course, if you travel through the back woods of any country, you're going to find plenty of ignorant assholes clinging to all kinds of rationalized hatred. fortunately, the world is not run from the back woods. The world may not know it, but it doesn't have time for this petty bullshit.

Those oppressed black kids will persevere and succeed, as long as they don't become mentally stuck on this incident and allow it to turn them into obsessive psychotic America haters. There's no future in that, you see.
posted by David Dark at 10:09 AM on May 2, 2003

cachilders:
1) bad form inserting links into someone's quoted text.
2) he was speaking in the present tense.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:10 AM on May 2, 2003

Space Coyote:

1) Bad form is stereotyping an entire culture because an aspect of that culture utilizes stereotypes. Bad form is accepting certain cultural stereotypes and grandstanding against others. Bad form is being a hypocrite. The people "where I live" are no different than the people where you live or he lives. They go to work and they pay their bills and die without ever being on the news. Feel free to endorse whichever stereotypes are necessary to reinforce your social attitudes, but don't tell me there is a single culture on this planet without past, present, or future institutions of racism and classism. Intellectual elitism is no less immoral, and it would do everybody some good to recognize that.

2) The link is my own, intended to add emphasis to his point. Perhaps it lacks class. I can accept that.
posted by cachilders at 10:29 AM on May 2, 2003

This computational experiment (click 'Segregation Simulation") has interesting implications in the context of this thread, don't you think?
posted by Cerebus at 10:31 AM on May 2, 2003

I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk together as sisters and brothers.

-mlk
posted by VulcanMike at 11:07 AM on May 2, 2003

Remember that Dr. King didn't just limit his speech to the South either, he included the North East, the Rockies and even the curvacious Californians!

the clout some of you are willing to give forty-some sixteen-year-old kids in Fuckall, Georgia.

I would also like to remind everyone that despite the actions of 40 losers, this GA school is holding its first integrated prom, which will be attended by four times the white kids that the redneck club "prom" will be (439 total kids - 232 black kids - 40 fukkkwits = 167 white prom attendees). Can we at least here some praise for those 400 students that are taking this brave step forward, the first to make this step? Maybe part of why racism perpetuates itself is because it gets such a huge reaction, particularly in contrast to the pitiful positive reaction the other, bold majority of those who choose to move forward and beyond its bounds receive. Why give the assholes the press time, that's what they want, let's give the others their far more deserved due.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:37 AM on May 2, 2003

That would be "hear some praise" thanks!
posted by Pollomacho at 11:38 AM on May 2, 2003

Of course, if you travel through the back woods of any country, you're going to find plenty of ignorant assholes clinging to all kinds of rationalized hatred. fortunately, the world is not run from the back woods.

Riiiiiight.
posted by soyjoy at 11:38 AM on May 2, 2003

Chalder, please point to a news article within the past, oh, twenty years that demonstrates that in British Columbia, students were (a) agitating for race-specific graduation parties and (b) didn't get the slap-down.

If it happens it shouldn't be difficult to find: BC has a very large East Indian and Asian population. The city of Surrey would be a good launch-point for such a search, as it has the redneck population that tends towards such crass behaviour.

In fact, I'll give you forty years. Find something since 1960.

In the year 2003, a county of nearly 10000 people in Georgia has allowed a group of students to bold-facedly promote and hold a racist social function.

I'll guarantee that this is not happening in any city in BC. Not now and not for a helluva a long time before now.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:42 AM on May 2, 2003

Horseshit. Plain and simple. On your drive home tonight count the confederate flags on trucks.

Pollo, settle down a little. Your links were weak - the KKK exists everywhere, not limited to the midwest or the north (equating geographically to American = Racist), and the fact that they have to hide under sheets pretty much proves my point. The other link is to something from, what, 50 years ago?

Also, I can't recall ever seeing a confederate flag on a truck in Ohio, though I have here in Philadelphia, where I now live. It's not individual flags that count, it's when the highest elected official in a given state is willing to explicitly pander to obviously racist concerns that says something about a population in general.

But let's get something straight. I'm not trying to argue North better than South - I was always troubled at the two-faced nature of my kinfolk in speaking politely to black people and then feeling free to say "nigger" when not in their presence - or pretend that there's no shameful legacy our folks still need to deal with as well. But those who say this segregated prom incident is some meaningless incident with no relevance to the national character are in deep denial. As my first comment, and many others, expressed, we're not astonished that this would happen at all in America, but that it would be happening today. The fact that it's occurring in the south, which has been generally slow to reject an ideology the rest of the country has signed onto (whether they believe it in their heart or not) is not a coincidence.
posted by soyjoy at 11:50 AM on May 2, 2003

Yet it's been shown that it's a win-win situation for the State to help those who are in need of economic and/or educational assistance

When? Links please?

hama7, some links.
Fostering Successful Families
Investing in Human Resources (scroll down)
posted by ashbury at 11:59 AM on May 2, 2003

Chalder

I've never met anyone with this name, but if I do, I'll be sure to pass along your concerns.

Worry not, I have no intention of usurping your ability to throw around stereotypes. I understand that you feel the need to defend them, and frankly, I see no further reason in arguing the point. Build your world view as narrowly as you choose. I will continue to like Georgia, BC, and the rest of the world; regardless of the inherent problems that might occur when forming societies from tens of thousands of free willed creatures. The difference is, that while I am willing to accept the existence of certain groups of hateful and nationalizing personalities, you fail to recognize that you belong to one.
posted by cachilders at 12:05 PM on May 2, 2003

"nationalizing" should be "marginalizing." It is a somewhat funny substitution though.

Also, to clarify before it is mentioned, "accept" might be better suited replaced with "acknowledge." The former indicates that I condone such groups.
posted by cachilders at 12:09 PM on May 2, 2003

In the year 2003, a county of nearly 10000 people in Georgia has allowed a group of students to bold-facedly promote and hold a racist social function.

I'll guarantee that this is not happening in any city in BC. Not now and not for a helluva a long time before now.

This is NOT a school function, this is NOT a school group. This is a PRIVATE event and I can assure you that, yes in British Columbia of all places on Earth private events are held that do not include mixing of races, this may shock you, but it happens and it happens often. Let me reiterate, the school has NO control or sanction over this PRIVATE and separate function.

Its all right soyjoy, we're on the same page, I just don't buy that the midwest or the north is any better than the south. The 70 year old history link, if you noticed was about the governor of Indiana and Klansman Edward Jackson. No other state has had such a history with the Klan as Indiana (a midwestern state, neighboring Ohio, lest I remind you), I was just calling horseshit on your midwesterners are ashamed of their racism comment. You almost HAD to be a Klansman to get elected in 1920's Indiana. Racism is not a regional problem, or a national problem nor is it even a white person problem, it is a global problem, its in Alabama, in Georgia, Ohio, and BC too!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:35 PM on May 2, 2003

soyjoy, are you high? That's the best you could come up with?

Bush visits Bob Jones University, and that makes him a racist running the world from the back woods, eh?

...commentator Alan Keyes, former presidential candidate and Sen. Bob Dole and former President Ronald Reagan had all made visits to the school, as had Democrats like current South Carolina Gov. Jim Hodges.

If you know who Alan Keyes is, you know he's darker than little black samba and his visit to the school certainly doesn't lump him in with the nigger-haters of the back woods, does it? Try again, and put some effort into it this time.

But those who say this segregated prom incident is some meaningless incident with no relevance to the national character are in deep denial.

Horseshit. I've seen Nazi flags hanging proudly, for fuck's sake, right here in Southern California, the land of liberals... should I be inclined to say that Nazism is relevant to the overall mindset of the region and on a larger scale, to the overall national character?

It's really funny how at 7 last night you couldn't believe this type of thing actually still happens, and in less than 16 hours you've become well traveled throughout the south and have obtained plenty of anecdotes relating to the entire national character's being steeped in racism, indeed, America=Racist. Incredible! How did you do it?
posted by David Dark at 12:36 PM on May 2, 2003

I would also like to remind everyone that despite the actions of 40 losers, this GA school is holding its first integrated prom

Actually, LAST year they had their FIRST integrated prom where the seperate, private one was not held. Just a side note is that this is the only public high school in the city where this happened.

Unbelievable, the clout some of you are willing to give forty-some sixteen-year-old kids in Fuckall, Georgia.

David, you miss the point that the PARENTS are also supporting this. While it is being held by kids, the parents seem to support them. Like cycle of poverty, the cycle of racism won't end by just ignoring the facts because they are kids. Cause', guess what? in 10 years a lot of those kids will have the same notions.
posted by jmd82 at 2:10 PM on May 2, 2003

10 years a lot of those kids will have the same notions.

Assuming they had kids at age 7, since most high school Juniors attending proms are 17, seriously though, what may help is that a majority of kids in the school, white and black are not attending the klan rally, I mean, private prom and peer pressure does have a huge influence on 17 year olds. Maybe now its 40, five years its 20 dorks, 10 years from now, despite parental desire, there just isn't interest in such an event, lord willing.

should I be inclined to say that Nazism is relevant to the overall mindset of the region and on a larger scale, to the overall national character?

I would also like to remind everyone that this is, to quote the original article, a "small number of whites" that are holding this party. Sounds like it doesn't even represent the mindset of the school as a whole, just a group of bigots, just like you find anywhere on Earth.

Actually, LAST year they had their FIRST integrated prom where the separate, private one was not held. Just a side note is that this is the only public high school in the city where this happened.

My bad, you are right, I misread that line from the article, however there still is only one prom, and a private party held by several white students. How many public schools are there in Taylor County anyway? The county's only got 100,000 people total!
posted by Pollomacho at 2:31 PM on May 2, 2003

I've also lived in the South and spent time driving through various parts of it over many years, and I could provide plenty of anecdotes.

No doubt racism is alive and well in the south, and for many reasons that are too off topic and involved for this thread.

Still, it's not lost on me how people are appalled when racism appears in the south and use these events to make blanket statements about an entire region of the country, much the way racists label entire races of people.

I've lived in the south my entire life; birmingham alabama, the cradle of the civil rights movement for the last 4 months. I live only 4 miles from the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church and I work and go to school nearby as well.

I have yet to encounter racism here.

Is it here? Hell yes. It's everywhere. But this ignorant theory that as soon as you cross the mason dixon line racism attacks you from all sides is simply not true.

Of course, many who feel this way claim to have once 'lived here' or took a trip 'down south' in the past. Kind of reminds me of racist people who claim they're not racist because they have a 'black friend'.

I look at my user page, and with over 18,000 members here, one other member lives near me.

Which says that 99 percent of the people here are discussion racism in the south without having ever been here, or on the merit of a few 'trips'.

I realize the school was in the south, so the south in this thread is fair game. But before you ride away on your high horse while looking down on the south, perhaps you would be better off dealing with racism that's in your neck of the woods. It's not as easy, but in the long run, more fulfilling, not to mention more constructive.
posted by justgary at 4:54 PM on May 2, 2003

If you know who Alan Keyes is, you know he's darker than little black samba

If you're going to use such offensive comparisions, David Dark, the least you could do is get them right. I half expect to see you refer to someone as an "Uncle Tim" next.

Also, a quick pointer for the clueless: Just because you don't recognize racism in a particular context doesn't mean it's not there.
posted by hippugeek at 7:40 PM on May 2, 2003

this GA school is holding its first integrated prom,

See, this is where I have the problem. The hypocrisy here is that "racism" means exclusionary or divisive practices based on race. Did you glance at the links in the first comment I made in this thread? That's also racism. Institutionalized and "politically correct" racism, and it's just as bad as the old kind.

And Pollomacho, I don't think using race and class slurs are helping your argument.
posted by hama7 at 8:09 PM on May 2, 2003

I think I actually see hama7's point here how having an integrated prom is in fact racism because in the case of this GA town, race is the factor. Alas, that doesn't change the fact that there are different kinds of racism of one concedes that. Inclusionary racism such as an integrated prom = good. Exclusionary racism such as segregated prom = bad.
posted by jmd82 at 8:14 PM on May 2, 2003

Thanks for the links, ashbury.
posted by hama7 at 8:15 PM on May 2, 2003

having an integrated prom is in fact racism

What? When has that ever been my point? On every possible occasion in this thread, I have said that inclusion or exclusion on the basis of race is wrong in any situation.

Wait. You're kidding, right?
posted by hama7 at 9:27 PM on May 2, 2003

Do you think you'd have the same opportunities in Iran, Malaysia or Germany?
posted by hama7 at 4:49 PM CET on May 2

Is it just me or did he reallysy there that Germany doesn't share the western values, just like Iran and Malaysia?
posted by zerofoks at 12:44 AM on May 3, 2003

reallysy

"really say"
posted by zerofoks at 12:46 AM on May 3, 2003

Germany doesn't share the western values

Let's just put France and Germany in their own little category for the time being, shall we?
posted by hama7 at 8:33 AM on May 3, 2003

So it's a class war, huh? Bravo Sierra.

So, by saying that college is unaffordable to many, you say I'm claiming class war? That's a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeech.
posted by adampsyche at 12:19 PM on May 3, 2003

hipp-o-geek, all this mumb-o jumb-o can be a tang-o for a dumb-o, you're a grammar columb-o, nailed me on a typ-o. Brav-o, boz-o. And als-o, don't you mean Tim Crow?

Also, a quick pointer for the clueless: Just because you don't recognize racism in a particular context doesn't mean it's not there.

Ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha. That's a gem. I use that one all the time, too. "Hey, clueless! Quick pointer for you! Just because you don't see the invisible space monsters doesn't mean they're not there!" Idiot.
posted by David Dark at 12:31 PM on May 3, 2003

Is David Dark real? And if so, is he just as big a fucktard in person as on the net?

(my decorum slipping now that this thread is being read by no-one, and I'm severely unimpressed by the personal attacks)
posted by Space Coyote at 1:31 PM on May 3, 2003

And als-o, don't you mean Tim Crow?

N-o.

Just because you don't recognize ___ in a particular context doesn't mean it's not there.

To everyone else: I apologize for the tone of my last post. Hearing intelligent, accomplished people compared to racist stereotypes (typos or no) makes me a little crabby, and I allowed my irritation with David Dark to spread.

However, I stand by that statement, no matter what is in the blank. Lack of evidence does not proof of absence make, and it makes a great deal of difference who is looking for the evidence.
posted by hippugeek at 2:47 PM on May 3, 2003

Space Coyote, unimpressed by personal attacks, makes personal attacks. Impressive, if only in terms of hypocrisy. Is he real? Is he a fucktard, too? Does it count as a personal attack if I only use the third person?

hippugeek, cry me a river. You're offended because black people are black? I'd try to learn to get over that.
posted by David Dark at 6:36 PM on May 3, 2003

Despite ample evidence to teh contrary, such as his posting, I still don't believe David Dark exists.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:00 PM on May 3, 2003

Let's just put France and Germany in their own little category for the time being, shall we?

Nevermind how moronic the foreign politics of said countries are, I, as an individual citizen, am pretty free to do or say whatever I please. Don't you go off at this kind of shit, being free & stuff? 'cause I am!
posted by zerofoks at 2:21 AM on May 4, 2003

As a thought experiment, I will assume David Dark exists, and answer his questions as though they were in earnest.

soyjoy, are you high?

Not at the moment, no. Nor when I posted anything on this thread. You?

Bush visits Bob Jones University, and that makes him a racist running the world from the back woods, eh?

Uh, yeah. In case you really and truly are too dim to connect these dots, the link was a quick reminder of the power of backwoods-mentality BJU in national politics - I'm confident you remember the juncture at which this happened in the 2000 campaign and its ramifications - and an indicator of the many ways racist and parochial concerns are manipulating public policy in America.

If you know who Alan Keyes is, you know he's darker than little black samba

Ya know, typos in the course of everyday discourse are irrelevant, but when they occur at the very crux of your point, they're curious. To me this one indicates your own discomfort at dragging in a known offensive stereotype and speaking counterfactually about it for an irrelevant point. Keyes, of course, is not darker than Little Black Sambo; Keyes' skin is brown, whereas Sambo's is as black as ink, because Sambo is a cartoon on paper, literally a 2-dimensional stereotype. If you would reduce Keyes (a loose cannon, certainly, but a true-life, well-rounded individual) to a cartoon stereotype so breezily, I have to wonder if you would do the same for a white "character" like Bill Bennett.

It's really funny how at 7 last night you couldn't believe this type of thing actually still happens, and in less than 16 hours you've become well traveled throughout the south and have obtained plenty of anecdotes relating to the entire national character's being steeped in racism, indeed, America=Racist. Incredible! How did you do it?

It's easy. Pay attention this time. It's not as if I couldn't believe people are still racists. Despite the best of my conscious intentions, I'm a racist, and even though I don't know you, I will assert that you too, Mr. Dark, are a racist. Why? Because neither of us was raised in a vacuum (I'm assuming here, of course). We grew up in a world where a racist worldview was the norm; we were imprinted with such a way of looking at people at a primal level, and we can't just wish that away with college education and good intentions - or with whatever battery of rationalizations you have in order to believe America's character is not "steeped in racism."

But there's a difference between being a racist at some subliminal level and celebrating it outright; that's what I was surprised and dismayed by. My position didn't change in 16 hours: Most of my time in the South was 20 years ago, for one thing, so I was amazed that here in the 21st century it seemed so little had changed.

But one last time, it's not like there's some good/evil barrier at the Mason-Dixon line - yeah, of course there's racist shit like this going on all over the place. But when it shows up in exaggerated form like this, with people who seem to be unashamed about proclaiming their racism in a public forum, it does tend to happen in the South, like it or not.
posted by soyjoy at 8:22 PM on May 4, 2003

I'm confident you remember the juncture at which this happened in the 2000 campaign and its ramifications

Sorry, what were the ramifications? He became President?

So let me get this straight. Bush and Keyes both visit BJU, which makes Bush a backwoods-mentality racist while Keyes remains a well-rounded individual. You really are a racist, aren't you?

Despite the best of my conscious intentions, I'm a racist...

Well, there you have it.

I believe you. However, I don't accept your extending the label to me. I have eyes; I see the spectrum of skin tones before me as I make my way through the day. But I reserve judgment for what's inside. Hard to believe, isn't it, that some of us actually consider all human beings to be part of one race known as human beings? And me, not even raised in a vacuum.
posted by David Dark at 10:26 AM on May 5, 2003

part of one race

What a beautiful sentiment. Except the word you're looking for is "species."

No, I know you meant it rhetorically, like just about everything else you've said (e.g. "You're offended because black people are black?" WTF?) Since you're so deep in denial about the problems with our society that you believe it and yourself untainted by racism, and since you apparently have no idea how the Bob Jones speech figured into the success of Bush in 2000, I won't waste any more time trying to explain any of this or conversing logically with you. Go ahead and make up all the crap you want now. Cheers.
posted by soyjoy at 10:59 AM on May 5, 2003

And Pollomacho, I don't think using race and class slurs are helping your argument.

What? You mean me calling the kids that want to have a separate prom because they can't get over the color of their skin, "dorks?" (dork, as in nerd or goober, no slur to race nor class, just ignorance) Remember, I'm not the one calling people sambo around here!

But when it shows up in exaggerated form like this, with people who seem to be unashamed about proclaiming their racism in a public forum, it does tend to happen in the South, like it or not.

Bensonhearst is in New York. Boston is in Massachusetts. LA is in California (Los Angeles, not Lower Alabama, I incidentally grew up in what I like to refer to as South Central LA). Cincinnati is in Ohio. Last I checked none of those states were part of the South nor had they ever participated in the Confederacy, however each has been involved in very public and very violent racial incidents in recent times. No, I'm afraid it does not just tend to happen in the South any more than anywhere else (although occasionally it does much to the delight of northern media outlets that will never allow wounds to heal and those who buy their hype), like it or not.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:07 PM on May 5, 2003

No, soyjoy, I don't mean "species," that would only be stating the obvious. I know these are difficult concepts, but I used the word "race" and meant it, in terms of...

race: a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics.

Like it or not, the definition can easily transcend the basest of our differences, i.e. our skin tone.

It's difficult discussing this issue with you, since you can only conceive that a person who doesn't judge others based on the color of skin is "deep in denial", but then again I didn't have parents who talked about those dirty niggers every time they left the room. We had black folks over for dinner, and we actually liked them. Unbelievable, you say? That's your problem, racist.

As far as the BJU speech goes, you're out of your fucking mind. It was a disaster, it was supposed to be the death of his campaign, he had to apologize for it. But since he won anyway, it must mean that it was all a secret farce, the BJU speech was the key to the success of Bush in 2000!, truly the bigots and the bigots alone elected the man. Conversing logically? Are you capable of such a thing?
posted by David Dark at 12:12 PM on May 5, 2003

Congrats, Mr. Dark, you've succeeded in getting me to reply to your troll - but only by lying about my parents. What an achievement. Do you not even notice yourself making up stuff and pretending people have actually said it?

For one, you failed to explain where "You're offended because black people are black?" came from; for another, I said "kinfolk," explicitly meaning "extended family" - I never heard my own mother or father say such a thing - and your ploy of turning that into a personal slur is transparently desperate; third, why the fuck would I find your liking black people or dining with them (as did we, wow) "unbelievable"? What did I ever say that leads to that conclusion? This is where actual logic would help, see?

Lastly, as to Bush and Bob Jones, yeah, "it was supposed to be the death of his campaign," as your links from that week indicate. But perspective has shown that it was quite the opposite:

To beat back the threat [from McCain], Bush tacked sharply to the right in an effort to rally his support among the party’s conservative base. A controversial appearance at Bob Jones University in South Carolina was emblematic of the new direction of the campaign. Bush appealed to his GOP’s core conservative voters to come to his aid and they did: On “Super Tuesday,” March 7, Bush swept McCain in every region of the country except New England, ending a bitter primary battle for the GOP nod.

It's not as if this is the only example of tolerance of egregious racism among the American public or its elected officials, but it's not up to me to explain all of them to you. I'm outa here, and having used up the "mother" lode of trolls in your last post, you won't be able to generate anything else from me.

Good luck with your denial, non-racist.
posted by soyjoy at 1:19 PM on May 5, 2003

soyjoy, you are so damn funny. "I'm outa here!" That makes me giggle.

Let's get one thing straight first - I did not lie about your parents; in fact, I didn't say anything at all about your parents, I only said something about my parents. Go re-read what I wrote. Now, to quote you, "Do you not even notice yourself making up stuff and pretending people have actually said it?"

Here's what you did say:

I was always troubled at the two-faced nature of my kinfolk in speaking politely to black people and then feeling free to say "nigger" when not in their presence - or pretend that there's no shameful legacy our folks still need to deal with as well.... We grew up in a world where a racist worldview was the norm; we were imprinted with such a way of looking at people at a primal level, and we can't just wish that away with college education and good intentions.

You use "we" as if your situation was/is universal. I made a comment regarding my parents and my upbringing to show that it wasn't, at least, not in my case, a universal situation. Does this make more sense to you now, or are you still fumbling for the "actual logic" you need to help you "connect the dots?"

As far as the whole Bush/McCain thing goes, you can believe whatever you want to believe, but McCain slit his own throat by calling Christian leaders evil. That's when the shift occurred, not because Bush went to BJU a month earlier. I think you're misinterpreting history to suit your own model of the world, but hey, good luck with your denial.

I know you can't respond, but I have a sneaky feeling you haven't got much left to say, anyway. Thanks for the conversation.
posted by David Dark at 3:20 PM on May 5, 2003