Well, Saddam shot people for less...

May 12, 2003 4:31 AM

"We own you, you don't have any legal rights" U.S. Secret Service agents aggressively interrogate two Bay Area high school students after their teacher reports their remarks on President Bush, made during in-class discussion on the war in Iraq, to authorities.
posted by troutfishing (97 comments total)

What the hell did they say? I can't believe there's not even a passing reference to a paraphrase.

I'll tell you what, Jayson Blair at NYT would have had that quote nailed cold.
posted by luser at 4:40 AM on May 12, 2003

Wake Up, America!
posted by Domain Master 666 at 4:47 AM on May 12, 2003

Apparently they said something about getting a sniper to kill Bush.

Oh Jesus, did I just link to frigging indymedia? Have that sniper do me instead!
posted by shoos at 4:47 AM on May 12, 2003

Well, it's only fair - after all, the US beat the USSR. Now they get to be Evil Empire.
posted by spazzm at 4:49 AM on May 12, 2003

You know what? After Columbine, I don't blame the teacher for contacting the Secret Service. Certainly their interrogatory tactics were out of line, and I deplore them, but it's well known in the States that these agents have to follow up on EVERY threat of this kind, no matter how foolish it might seem. No reason teenagers should be exempt.
posted by luser at 4:56 AM on May 12, 2003

I wonder if the SS could nail you for a statement like "I'd truly enjoy it if a meteorite were to land on the white house" Actually, scratch that: "I'd truly enjoy it if a meteorite were to land on wherever Bush is vacationing at the moment."
posted by Space Coyote at 4:56 AM on May 12, 2003

Subservience to the begins in the classroom, after all.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:57 AM on May 12, 2003

If you somehow had control over meteorite trajectories, yes they could.
posted by shoos at 5:00 AM on May 12, 2003

"For years the classroom has been the setting for the free expression of ideas..."

I laughed, anyway.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:03 AM on May 12, 2003

What disturbs me is the "... we own you and you have no legal rights..." statements made by the agents involved. There should be no interrogation of any minor without the parents either being present or at least being notified. These were kids under the age of 18. Whether Columbine had happened or no, that doesn't excuse the agents from interrogating kids without their parents being present.

Kids say a lot of things, and while adults should be notified when statements are made that could be an indication of future violent behavior, to me, the teacher should have notified their parents, and not the Secret Service. That was some serious overkill.
posted by greengrl at 5:04 AM on May 12, 2003

I like the "after Columbine"-logic:
If anyone in an age-group commits a crime, everyone in that age group is a criminal.
posted by spazzm at 5:07 AM on May 12, 2003

the bush marionette is only a symptom anyway. shooting him would be waste of good ammunition and provide the real power with an unstoppable excuse to suspend the constitution.
posted by quonsar at 5:19 AM on May 12, 2003

When one of the students asked, 'do we have to talk now? Can we be silent? Can we get legal council?' they were told, 'we 0wnz0r j00!!!111'

Were these guys agents or Final Fantasy g4m3r5?
posted by Ljubljana at 5:20 AM on May 12, 2003

I think the "childrens" learned a very valuable lesson, even if it was taught in a probably terror-based distressing way , and the lesson in my opinion is that there is no such thing as infinite freedom (for obvious reasons) and that somebody still lives the delusion criminals will announce crimes before they're done.
posted by elpapacito at 5:20 AM on May 12, 2003

luser, American high-school students get grilled while the Bin Ladins are given a post 9-11 free ride out of the country, no questions asked. Federal agencies drag due process through the mud and back but are denied access to gun purchasers lists in their search for terrorists (now, *that* would be unconstitutional). I'd take the "seems" out of the "foolish" comment.
posted by magullo at 5:24 AM on May 12, 2003

shooting him would be waste of good ammunition and provide the real power with an unstoppable excuse to suspend the constitution.

Yes, q, but at least suspension of the constitution and martial law would give those who really believe that 'a well-armed populace is the best defense against tyranny' an opportunity to prove that they actually believe the platitudes they mouth. Not that that'd make the situation any better, of course, but it'd sure be fun to watch from a safe distance.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:25 AM on May 12, 2003

Part of growing up that a teen has a bunch of intermediate authority figures between the teen and law enforcement. Anyone in school talking about a sniper shooting the President (even in the abstract) should be taken aside, removed from class, and told in no uncertain terms that making a statement like that is considered a threat and is illegal and could result in having the secret service called if this wasn't a school or if the teacher wasn't in as good a mood as he happens to be in today.

I mean, heck, when was the last time a teacher ever called the police because there was a fight in school? Assault is illegal, too, but the point is that there is an intermediate layer of discipline so that the minor doesn't get in over his head.
posted by deanc at 6:15 AM on May 12, 2003

so that the minor doesn't get in over his head.


- as opposed to a miner of course.
posted by johnnyboy at 6:32 AM on May 12, 2003

Anyone in school talking about a sniper shooting the President (even in the abstract) should be taken aside, removed from class, and told in no uncertain terms that making a statement like that is considered a threat and is illegal and could result in having the secret service called

C'mon. It was a couple of kids making statements, the ramifications of which they almost certainly didn't grasp. The teacher should just interrupt the discussion, say that such things aren't appropriate, explain the possible consequences and continue on with class.

Tempest. Teapot.
posted by setmajer at 6:34 AM on May 12, 2003

What a difference a President makes. And so many people believed voting for Nader was the right thing to do. . .
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:40 AM on May 12, 2003

Clealry, these kids hate freedom. Send 'em back to Daghestan.
posted by drstrangelove at 6:42 AM on May 12, 2003

er... make that clearly...
posted by drstrangelove at 6:45 AM on May 12, 2003

setmajer, good point.

If an adult made that comment trying to be funny, get a rise, or even serious, they'd certainly be questioned or arrested. That's what the teacher should have explained to the students.

It's unfortunate that the teacher said something to the authorities first - either the teacher wasn't thinking, didn't realize there was a "discuss further" option, or acted as she felt necessary.

This sums that up: "If they thought it was serious enough of an incident to call in the Secret Service, it should have been serious enough to get the parents involved,"....
posted by tomplus2 at 6:45 AM on May 12, 2003

Anyone in school talking about a sniper shooting the President (even in the abstract) should be taken aside, removed from class, and told in no uncertain terms that making a statement like that is considered a threat and is illegal

except it's NOT.

let me explain for the terror-hysteria afflicted:

ILLEGAL THREAT: I AM GOING TO KILL THE PRESIDENT.
FREE SPEECH: everything else. everything. "someone should...", "i wish...", "wouldn't it be nice...", "what if a sniper...", and "where is lee harvey oswald when the world needs him?" all fail to reach the easy to distinguish level of direct, distinct threat. except for fascist-wannabes who buy the whole reeking mound of dogshit called "don't they know there's a war going on?"
posted by quonsar at 6:47 AM on May 12, 2003

Thanks to shoos for the extra link. As an Englishman, I sometimes look with envy at the constitutional rights of 'free speech' enshrined in the US way of life.
Maybe my 'envy' is a bit tarnished, and diluted, today, but really (although a terrible experience for the students), I hope this is just a one off case of over-reaction, and not a pointer to the future.
posted by apocalypse miaow at 6:51 AM on May 12, 2003

Wow. Talk about America becoming a police state.

I remember my father telling me, when I was a child, about people in the soviet union, having to watch what they said, and that children would sometimes inform on their parents (not realising the consequences.)

Now, in America, teachers are informing on the students they're supposed to teach and take care of. If there is anyone out there who doesn't think this is totally fucked up, I can only suggest submitting to a good beating with a clue-stick.

I've considered what the consequences of assasination of Bush/Blair etc. would be for the world. Does that mean I should be grilled by MI5?

That teacher should be sacked, or forced out by the parents/students. The principal should be turfed out, too. If that had happened to my kid, I wouldn't rest until they'd been permanently ejected from the premises.

I can only say that I feel more and more confident in having formed the conclusion that the US, has become a crypto-fascist state.
posted by Blue Stone at 6:52 AM on May 12, 2003

If anyone in an age-group commits a crime, everyone in that age group is a criminal.

Similar to the oh, so popular "all muslims are violent" belief that seems to be all the rage lately.

luser, American high-school students get grilled while the Bin Ladins are given a post 9-11 free ride out of the country, no questions asked. Federal agencies drag due process through the mud and back but are denied access to gun purchasers lists in their search for terrorists (now, *that* would be unconstitutional). I'd take the "seems" out of the "foolish" comment.

What bin Ladens? His brothers? I'm sure his brothers are in and out of the country on business often, on their tab, what does that matter? Gun purchase lists? What are they going to cross check the lists with? Who's Who in International Terrorism? They are the ones doing the background checks, you'd think they'd be smart enough to make the lists themselves, or at least actually check backgrounds. "no matter how foolish it might." Huh? I don't know about you, but when I pay my taxes I expect results from my money. I expect the FBI to do its job and the last I checked that was to Investigate. Now while I'd say grilling a couple of kids over some stupid comment is a bit over the line, I would like our Federal Investigative bodies to actually Investigate threats. I don't know where you live or work, but where I do if someone decides to go forward with an actual threat, I'm the one who has to face the consequences, just because I like to eat and pay my rent.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:53 AM on May 12, 2003

except for fascist-wannabes who buy the whole reeking mound of dogshit called "don't they know there's a war going on?"

I still ♥ quonsar.
posted by jpoulos at 7:32 AM on May 12, 2003

Shit, half of metafilter says worse than that every day. If the US really WAS a police state, Mefi's membership would be around 20 people or so.

What setmajer said. Tempest. Teapot. And not likely to be indicative of the nation as a whole...much like that the whole NYT reporter hoohah is not indicative of the paper as a whole...?

*nods sagely*
posted by UncleFes at 7:39 AM on May 12, 2003

two kids with a sour taste in their mouth for authority lash out, are accosted by the Secret Service, and have their negative opinion of america validated. stupid stupid stupid!

You know what? After Columbine, I don't blame the teacher for contacting the Secret Service.

if these kids lash out violently sometime in the future, I'll most definitely blame the teacher.
posted by mcsweetie at 7:42 AM on May 12, 2003

Pollomacho, since you seem to be a tad confused (the part about "making their own lists" is a dead giveaway), let me make it very simple:

If a government investigator of any kind says "we own you, you don't have any legal rights" to anyone and gets away with it, then he or she is definitely NOT delivering what I pay my taxes for.
posted by magullo at 7:46 AM on May 12, 2003

If these kids lash out violently, wouldn't it more appropriate to blame their parents first, and then society in general?

Videogames ought to be in there somewhere, though... and what about that music! "Rock and roll" the kids call it these days? "Screaming" I call it!

Just for the record: the teacher is a dick. But I wouldn't look for SS (cute!) goosestepping down Maryland Ave just yet.

Magullo, you kidder - you live in Europe! "Paying my taxes for" indeed :)
posted by UncleFes at 7:49 AM on May 12, 2003

"don't they know there's a war going on?"
Wow. Talk about America becoming a police state.

No wonder some of our troops are still over seas, there mission for battle is foreign.

A similar incident like this happened with a local radio station in Dallas during the election.(couldn't find a link probably because of bevo)
posted by thomcatspike at 7:54 AM on May 12, 2003

Heh. The history of the 'we own you' quote?

Secret Service Agent -> kid -> teacher -> news guy.

The quote has more in common with that NYT reporter than originally thought, I'd bet.
posted by UncleFes at 7:55 AM on May 12, 2003

Good ol' U.S.S.A
(http://www.newyorkpress.com/print.cfm?content_id=8218)
posted by acrobat at 8:07 AM on May 12, 2003

"I wouldn't look for SS (cute!) goosestepping down Maryland Ave just yet."

Well, no, but then that's the thing about a crypto-fascist state.
posted by Blue Stone at 8:12 AM on May 12, 2003

I know if I were one of the parents, I would be freaking furious! How dare someone interrogate a child without representation! The teacher should be keelhauled and the principal should be replaced. Everyday, I see more and more reasons to consider home schooling or moving to one of the cities that has a Waldorf school.
posted by dejah420 at 8:30 AM on May 12, 2003

[ot]Unclefes, think about it: you don't have to live in the USA to pay taxes to the USA government - all you need is an American source of taxable income.[/ot]

Incidentally, we do pay (quite high) taxes in the Netherlands. We also have democracy (and a Queen to boot!) and demand respect from the cops - who in turn are generally pretty laid back as well as efficient. Real wacky stuff, I know ...
posted by magullo at 8:31 AM on May 12, 2003

The gist of this report is indeed quite chilling. However, I'd feel more certain of its accuracy if it had been written by someone who knew the difference between "council" and "counsel."
posted by NorthernLite at 8:37 AM on May 12, 2003

Incidentally, we do pay (quite high) taxes in the Netherlands. We ...demand respect from the cops - who in turn are generally pretty laid back as well as efficient. Real wacky stuff, I know ...

The truth about the Dutch Police.
posted by biffa at 8:42 AM on May 12, 2003

Pollomacho- The reference to the US flying the bin Ladens out of the country is actually something I don't ever think about, but that actually did happen to all the family members on the day after 9/11. One of the bin Ladens was a college freshman at my University in my dorm. It was about a week into classes at the time and suddenly he gets evacuated by the feds. I don't think he ever came back, actually. As I understand it, all the bin Ladens were taken away for their protection or something along those lines.
posted by crazy finger at 8:43 AM on May 12, 2003

Regarding the "ownership" of students:

While this is an alarming case, and it seems the teacher was out of bounds, it's true that students have no legal rights while attending school.

This came up some time ago - long before the recent Patriot unpleasantness - regarding a school's right to search student lockers. The courts ruled that students had no right to privacy, etc. while on school grounds.

The same goes for school newspapers. Freedom of the press does not apply to student journalists writing for a school subsidized paper. The school may censor at whim, and without fear of legal action.

So while it could have been phrased better, a school does indeed "own" its students.

But of course, were a student to express her views on a website hosted outside school jurisdiction, that'd be something else entirely.
posted by aladfar at 8:50 AM on May 12, 2003

And so many people believed voting for Nader was the right thing to do. . .

Oh, jesus, will you disgruntled Democrats never give up on that silly cliche? It was your guy's job to win his own election, and he did a marvellously bad job of it. Not Nader's fault, nor the fault of anyone who couldn't stomach Gore.
posted by Mars Saxman at 9:06 AM on May 12, 2003

crazy finger - that's interesting, I thought flights were grounded for a few days? Did the bin Laden boy in your college get his student visa rejected after this? What happened to his (probably paid in full) tuition? If one of my distant cousins looses it and becomes a weird terrorist, can I expect to get kicked out of the country too?

The teacher in this case, wasn't thinking, clearly. The parents should have been called first.
posted by dabitch at 9:24 AM on May 12, 2003

Oh, jesus, will you disgruntled Democrats never give up on that silly cliche?

no. tough shit on ya, bubby.
posted by quonsar at 9:29 AM on May 12, 2003

It may not be common knowlege here, but K5 has had not one but two members investigated by the Secret Service for comments made there. Just an FYI, I guess, that there aren't really any places where you're magically free to make threats. One of those was a stupid misreading of a comment (which the investigation rapidly determined), the other was a very clear cut threat, along the lines of "I'm planning to go down to DC with this gun on this date and take care of the guy myself," sort of thing. I don't know what happened after that one, but I suspect a particular college kid got a very stern talking to, and I'm glad.

Anyway, the more relevant point is that while this may be an example of bad judgement on the part of the teacher, it is certainly not evidence of any kind of growing police-state. Statements like the ones the kids made have always been grounds for investigation. Nothing new happened here, it's just that some people are suddenly much more interested in using incidents like this to prop up their paranoid fantasies.

I don't like the current legislative mood of the country either, but let's get a little bit of sanity and perspective on it, can't we? Look: I think President George W. Bush is an idiot, and I think his vice president Dick Cheney is a criminal who should go straight to prison, without passing go or collecting $200 million in Halliburton stock options. They should both be removed from office at the earliest possible opportunity.

When I can't say that without the slightest fear of repercussions, then we should worry. We're not even in the same universe as that.
posted by rusty at 9:34 AM on May 12, 2003

crazy finger - that's interesting, I thought flights were grounded for a few days? Did the bin Laden boy in your college get his student visa rejected after this?

Was 911 fingered on bin Laden the day of 9/11/01 or later when flights were flying.
posted by thomcatspike at 9:38 AM on May 12, 2003

dejah420, i went to a waldorf school. i strongly advise against it. i dropped out and educated myself instead (because the education was so uneven--9th grade: combinatorics and the FOUR HUMOURS!) i am deeply regretting ever going there now.
posted by nonreflectiveobject at 9:44 AM on May 12, 2003

Wow, nonreflectiveobject...I'd really like to chat with you about your waldorf experiences if you've got the time. Drop me an email (on my user page) if you feel like it.
posted by dejah420 at 9:50 AM on May 12, 2003

Oh, jesus, will you disgruntled Democrats never give up on that silly cliche? It was your guy's job to win his own election, and he did a marvellously bad job of it. Not Nader's fault, nor the fault of anyone who couldn't stomach Gore.

Lieberman on Bush from a previous democratic candidate debate:
"...People are worried that George Bush can't be beat. But to that I say: Al Gore and I already did!"
posted by Peter H at 9:57 AM on May 12, 2003

That is likely to play well among Democrats who dislike Lieberman’s strong support of Bush’s Iraq war policy.

Yet those whom don't support the war, support him?
posted by thomcatspike at 10:07 AM on May 12, 2003

Rusty~"...while this may be an example of bad judgement on the part of the teacher, it is certainly not evidence of any kind of growing police-state.

It's one indicator, amongst many. Imprisoning people indefinitely, breaching their rights; mass surveillance; oppressive moves against dissent; moving suspects to countries without torture inhibitions for questioning; waging wars without any evidence of an imminent threat (one of the few legal reasons permitted;) lots of friendly and un-critical media, etc.

The teacher was clearly a fool, but what of the agents who interrogated students, what's their excuse?
posted by Blue Stone at 10:11 AM on May 12, 2003

thomcatspike - 9/11 was speculated to be bin Laden's work already on 9/11 - see old mefithread. Can't find any news about his deported cousin though.. (i'm still curious).
posted by dabitch at 10:49 AM on May 12, 2003

The teacher was clearly a fool, but what of the agents who interrogated students, what's their excuse?

Realistically speaking, this entire incident could have been a couple of Secret Service giving the local equivalent of Beavis and Butthead the aforementioned "stern talking to" they could have deserved. It shouldn't have come to that, obviously, but aren't the agents are required to investigate potential threats? and the only reporting of what happened in that room comes third-hand from the two kids themselves. High school students exhibiting previously-held authority issues are, let's be honest, not exactly the best source in the world for cop quotes. In the end, they weren't held, they weren't arrested, they weren't even removed from the school grounds. As crypto fascist :) kidnappings go, this one sucks. I wish someone would have bothered to interview the only objective grown-up observer there (that'd be the principal, for those of you playing at home), but in all the shrill outrage over the US's surprisingly anemic hell-in-a-handbasket slide toward suspension of All Things Free and Just, he got skipped.

Please, fellow Metafilterians, save your outrage for incidents that deserve it, else the vast sea of sheep will ignore you when a real wolf is sighted, and thus shall we all be eaten. In this case, lay the blame where it belongs: on the teacher, for wasting our time and being a shithead, and on the news, for not bothering to report a story properly.
posted by UncleFes at 10:51 AM on May 12, 2003

You know, drstranelove, I think that the kids and the rest of America are already living in the new "Republic(an) of Shutthefuckupistan."

What I marvel at is this happened in the hyper-liberal Bay Area. Teacher/Informants. If this sort of thing is happening here, I wonder what the rest of the country is experiencing...as if they feel free to say....
posted by Dunvegan at 11:03 AM on May 12, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.
posted by majcher at 11:03 AM on May 12, 2003

Right on UncleFes. Since they are under 18 we know nothing about these two 'kids'. They could be knocking over gas stations with uzi's for all we know.

As an aside, my brother was 16 and working at a fast food joint where some money went missing. Two cops came and took him in the patrol car down to the station where the they stood over him and interrogated him until he cried (not the type to easily break down either).

My mom who works for a police department as an admin was called after they dropped him at home to let her know that they had talked to him.

This was 10 years ago in 1993.
posted by Yossarian at 11:24 AM on May 12, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.

Apples. Oranges.
posted by Slithy_Tove at 11:26 AM on May 12, 2003

BTW-they did it to all the people who worked the place.
posted by Yossarian at 11:29 AM on May 12, 2003

AND before I get yelled at, the teacher overreacted and the SS were probably ham handed, but I doubt it was anything more than my soccer coach was.
posted by Yossarian at 11:33 AM on May 12, 2003

Yossarian, I think the only point you're proving there is that a lot of cops are power-tripping sh*theads.
posted by zaack at 11:49 AM on May 12, 2003

Actually, I've done several ethnographies on police and police departments, and I'd rate the helpful good guy to power-tripping sh*thead ratio at about 4-1. Your results may vary, of course.
posted by UncleFes at 11:53 AM on May 12, 2003

"I tell you the looks on those childrens faces. I don't know if they'll say anything about anything ever again. Is that what we want? I don't think we want that," says Lopez.

I think it depends on which "we" Lopez is talking about.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:56 AM on May 12, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.

Apples. Oranges.

Heads. Tails.
posted by Ty Webb at 12:02 PM on May 12, 2003

Well...first my point was that this is nothing new.

Second, most cops are all right. The cop who gave you the ticket you never forget, the 3 cop's who gave you a warning you never remember. I admit most cops do have twsited senses of humor though.

Third, what if they had called lawyers, parents, etc., etc., etc. Now it's an even bigger deal then this deserves to be.

But my main point is that article gave you no background on the two teeenagers.
posted by Yossarian at 12:06 PM on May 12, 2003

But my main point is that article gave you no background on the two teeenagers.

Everyone has the right to remain silent. Everyone. I don't care if their background had them shooting up a 7-11 and sexual misconduct. This does not preclude them from the right to an attorney being present. Ever.
posted by benjh at 12:26 PM on May 12, 2003

Bin Laden Family Evacuated (via cbsnews.com)
posted by wsg at 12:34 PM on May 12, 2003

Actually, I've done several ethnographies on police and police departments, and I'd rate the helpful good guy to power-tripping sh*thead ratio at about 4-1.

I.e., what zaack said. Twenty percent of all cops is a lot of cops. And of course it doesn't matter how many good cops there are when you run into a bad one.
posted by languagehat at 12:36 PM on May 12, 2003

Never say never, never.

Prosecutors can present nearly all of suspected sniper Lee Boyd Malvo’s statement to police at his coming murder trial, a judge ruled Tuesday, rejecting defense arguments that his alleged confession should be barred because he was questioned for several hours without a lawyer.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:38 PM on May 12, 2003

Hypothetical Question.
posted by gwint at 12:42 PM on May 12, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.

Apples. Oranges.

Heads. Tails.

Tomayto. Tomahto.
posted by jokeefe at 12:43 PM on May 12, 2003

benjh: Is that an opinion or a statement of fact? Because as minors they have different legal rights and privileges.

Also isn't a principal the legal guardian while on the school grounds? (I don't know that for a fact).

And to ask another question: Were they actually arrested or was it "q 'n' a"? Were they charged with a crime?

Again, I have to reiterate: The teacher was out-of-line, and SS was probably heavy handed but this is blown out of proportion.

laugaugehat: That was supposed to be sarcastic right?
posted by Yossarian at 12:58 PM on May 12, 2003

Given all the resources and information relating to the youth offenders act [named so in Canada], this "teacher" doesn't know the word intimidation? Is this how one learns? Through fear and intimidation? The facts are that in a case such as this, there should have been intermediary intervention before calling the SS. That's right, they acted like the Schultzstaffel [unit of Nazis created to serve as bodyguard to Hitler and later expanded to take charge of intelligence, central security, policing action and extermination of undesirables].

I'd press to fire her ass. Bloody incompetent. Firstly, what proof does she have except that in a heated classroom discussion words were spoken. Any evidence of this being more serious? No? Thought so. At 16 years old, you say all kinds of things without meaning it, such as "you're dead after school". Of course that's bullying, but that's another topic.

The SS question, "are you a good shot"? What the hell does this mean. Yah, so?" That doesn't prove anything either and since most citizens may have firearms in their homes, doesn't mean squat again. Circumstantial "evidence" isn't proof.

This really pisses me off. To think that an "adult" and a "teacher" acted this way. Jeezus! I'd take her tv away from her, no more reading front pages of newspapers and no watching tv, seeming as how she can't understand the difference between facts and "reporting the news".

Statistics have proven that crime among youth is going down and that citizens base their opinion of youth crime from headlines that account for .0001% [if that] of youth today that cross the line of law egregiously. A few links below. Sandy Whitney isn't teaching unless it's how to become a lemming and not knowing your goddamned rights through fear and intimidation. THAT's assault IMO. Verbal assault is still assault.


Gang and Youth Violence
"Over the past two years, violence -- and especially murder -- committed by young people has declined. While the juvenile violent crime arrest rate increased 62% between 1987 and 1993, it decreased 2.9% in 1995, the first decline in seven years. The decrease in the juvenile murder arrest rate is even more significant, declining 15.2% in 1995 -- the largest one-year decrease in more than ten years. Since 1993, the juvenile murder arrest rate has dropped an incredible 22.8%."

Youth Law Center
"Juvenile justice battles are increasingly fought in the court of public opinion. The myth that a new breed of young and violent "super-predators" threatens the nation (also debunked by the Surgeon General's report) may be the most obvious example of a sound bite driving national policy, but it is hardly the only one. The penchant of television news for reporting violent crime prominently and often ("If it bleeds, it leads."), despite seven straight years of decreases in crime in all categories, adds to the problem. In Off Balance: Youth, Race and Crime in the News, another Building Blocks report, researchers from the Berkeley Media Studies Group and the Justice Policy Institute found that overall media coverage of youth crime is increasing regardless of actual changes in crime and that youth and minorities are over-depicted as criminals in the news media. Consequently despite a 68% decline in youth homicides from 1993 to 1999, 62% of poll respondents in 1999 believed youth crime was up."

Best Practices of Youth Violence Prevention: A Sourcebook for Community Action from the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.


Accountability from the Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention [OJJDP]
"Establishes an alternative philosophy for a more balanced approach to juvenile justice that emphasizes restorative justice. Offenders make amends to their victims and the community through accountability, competency development, and community safety. This guide presents practical information and tools that can be used by juvenile justice professionals."


Juvenile Court Statistics, 1997. The latest I could find at the time.

Recent Trends in Violence-Related behaviors Among High School Students in the United States
August, 1999
"Conclusions:  Declines in fighting and weapon carrying among US adolescents between 1991 and 1997 are encouraging and consistent with declines in homicide, nonfatal victimization, and school crime rates. Further research should explore why behaviors related to interpersonal violence are decreasing and what types of interventions are most effective."


Youth Violence and Youth Gangs: Responding to Community Concerns

Sandy Whitney's Boss List


Rusty~"...while this may be an example of bad judgement on the part of the teacher, it is certainly not evidence of any kind of growing police-state."

Sorry to disagree with you rusty. The school called the SS, ie. the Principal, Clement Mok [Don't fucking tell me, THE Clement Mok??]. Don't you think the SS should have questioned the legitimacy of the alleged threat instead of wasting two SS men's time? Who's minding the house? It should have been handled differently. What is scary is that it wasn't. We're talking here that the adults didn't handle the situation, will they handle anything properly ever? Big fucking emergency and threat to a nation huh? Was Bush even in the state, for instance? That should determine the seriousness of their actions to the kids' comments.

Like the Johnny Cash song, "One Piece at a Time", didn't think he meant that as a protest song huh?

ok, you're turn on the apple box
posted by alicesshoe at 1:13 PM on May 12, 2003

Principal Mok?
posted by sklero at 1:54 PM on May 12, 2003

Blue Stone and alicesshoe: As far as I can tell (and if I misread something terribly, do let me know) what happened was two kids made what could believably be considered threats against the president, and the teacher called the SS and told them about it. The SS then sent two agents over to the school, got the kids in an empty room, and asked them some questions.

They weren't imprisoned, or even "held" -- they were just questioned. I don't see where their civil rights were violated. They were not being questioned by police as suspects in a criminal case, or any kind of situation where they were entitled to a lawyer or even to have parents notified (according to California law). They were being questioned by agents of a branch of homeland security about threats they made against the president. I think you're both applying a lot of mistaken concepts about what rights you have and when.

And while if I were the teacher I'd probably have handled this differently, I'm glad that the secret service isn't too busy to follow up on reported threats. I don't like Bush, but for God's sake we must keep the man healthy, because think of the alternative! But beyond that, I respect the office of the President, and I'm glad we have people out there looking out for the guy, whoever the guy is at the moment.

The simple fact is this is what the Secret Service does. They can and will do this all day long and twice on Sunday. It's their whole reason for existing. I don't think they were in any way outside their mandate, nor do I think they were wasting their time. And I also don't think this is any sign of anything, except that the Secret Service still takes their job seriously, like they always did.
posted by rusty at 2:15 PM on May 12, 2003

For crying out loud...bad decision, maybe. Sensationalistic news coverage - I would put money on it.

Come on, "you have no rights." Where do you think they got this quote from? Was the "interrogation" taped? No. It probably came from the kid. That passes for in-depth journalism on local news.

Look, the kids didn't go to jail. They're not kicked out of school. They suffered, rightly, no real consequences.

Look at this logically: A teacher thought one of her kids might not be joking when he says that he would volunteer to be the sniper to take out the President (see the Indymedia article). Teacher calls police to see if there's any requirement to do something about this threat if she thinks there might be something to it (of course there wasn't, but you know how teachers are).

If the Fed gets a call that someone is worried that someone else, in this case the student, was considering an assassination, of course they have to go talk to the student and find out what happened.

The kids weren't beat up. They weren't send to the Gulag. They're not stifled from saying the same thing again and again if they so choose. They won't go to jail.

I can't understand how the posters here think that this represents the Stalinization of America. A non-violent questioning is just that. The teacher made a bad decision, but it would be irresponsible for the Feds not to look into it.
posted by Kevs at 2:20 PM on May 12, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.

Apples. Oranges.

Heads. Tails.

Tomayto. Tomahto.

Bill of Rights. Patriot act II.
posted by Peter H at 2:52 PM on May 12, 2003

Kids say the darndest things!
posted by SpaceCadet at 3:03 PM on May 12, 2003

I have to go with some of what Kevs said there. We have a quote, from a teacher, someone not present at the interview, about what the secret service said. You did have the principal there. We don't know how long the interview lasted and on and on.

I would like some actual "facts" before condemning one side or the other.
posted by Plunge at 4:09 PM on May 12, 2003

"Tecumsah's Curse in '04"
posted by hincandenza at 5:47 PM on May 12, 2003

I would like some actual "facts" before condemning one side or the other.

Exactly. SpeculationFilter called. They want their 80+ comments back.

My first thought was: What the heck are these kids "discussing"? They're high school children for pete sakes, there's a lot to *learn* about history, biology, chemistry, before wasting class time with chit-chat.
posted by hama7 at 6:32 PM on May 12, 2003

Sounds like hama7 got all his learnin' with the Nürnberger Trichter.
posted by muckster at 7:33 PM on May 12, 2003

Just questioned?

Sounds so innocent doesn't it? When the law is involved and we aren't even talking about the local flic [Fr.=police], but the SS, it isn't JUST a few questions.

In fact, you don't say a damn thing untill you've spoken to a lawyer. If no charges are being laid, then you still aren't required to answer anything. If charges are being laid you want to know why, with what evidence and no, I will not answer anymore questions until I speak to a lawyer.

CLEAR?

Logically the teacher overreacted. Since when does a teacher make a decision like this on their own, without consultation. IF the teacher consulted with the Principal first, both of them overreacted.

When I was in art school, I had a colored mohawk, earings. My family has a cottage up north, where I had spent the weekend with friends. I got a call at the art school from the OPP [US=Highway Patrol/Sheriff] that they wanted to talk to me. What was it about, I asked. They didn't say anything, something about the fact whether I was up north on such a day and something about a break in at the Marina and that they wanted to talk to me. Go ahead, I said, talk. No, they wanted me to come up north and speak to them. Again, I said we're speaking now, I'm at school. etc. The OPP said either you come up now or we'll get an arrest warrant out for you and come down and pick you up.

Well.


I went up north, in town I hired a lawyer to escort me to this chat. It all started out pleasantly enough, I told him what and where I was doing etc. [I hadn't committed any crimes]. Then the OPP got angry and started losing it and started calling me a liar. I just looked at my lawyer, he said, don't say anything more...are you arresting him or not, otherwise he has nothing more to say. No arrest and that was it.

The fact that the Marina owner didn't like the cut of my jib, he wanted to nail me on some trumped up break in that may or may not have happened around the time I was docking the boat, getting the car and driving back into the city.

When my parents came up north that weekend, we just said thanks and took our business elsewhere. We had been customers at that marina for 25 years! Yes, the owner was a red neck American [sorry, I know not all Americans are rednecks] with a crew cut and had bought the marina a few years ago. He was just on a fishing expedition with me. I may have looked scary to him, but I was not a criminal.

After all that time, the owner should have known my character. I had spoken to him on plenty occasions over the years, saw me with my family, saw me with friends etc.

That's why when questioned by the police or SS, you go with a lawyer or you'll get physically assaulted by the police. Period. Fact of life.

That's why there is NEVER a "just wanted to speak to them", EVER when it comes to police or the SS!

So no, I don't know how teachers are, but I would assume after spending x amount of time with them in their class, that they would be able to judge who the hell is in their class and what kind of person they are. IF the teacher had any suspicions, then they ought to have polled other teachers if they had any doubts or suspicions about their student, who by the way said...."... ~...". You take it from there.

From the articles, it doesn't appear to have been handled this way, most unusual, I'd say. Very fucking unusual, we're talking 16 years olds fer chrissake!

This "discussion" should have been handled with the Principal, the parents and a councelor all present along with the students and no flic's or SS. Yes, it is serious to make statements like that, but they are youth and beating the shit out of someone or intimidating them like that is way over the fucking top. That is not how you "teach" anyone to be a good adult.

Or is it?
posted by alicesshoe at 9:33 PM on May 12, 2003

So why did you break into the marina?
posted by HTuttle at 9:55 PM on May 12, 2003

I needed matches.






















Gettouttaherr HTuttle!!
posted by alicesshoe at 10:11 PM on May 12, 2003

America is dying.
posted by skinsuit at 10:19 PM on May 12, 2003

Amidst all the heated discussion, I thought I would poke my head in for a second - does anyone here remember this thinly veiled death threat against Bill Clinton?: "It was Jesse Helms (R, NC) who relayed a military death threat against President Clinton: "If he visits the military bases down here, he should bring a bodyguard." There were no consequences for Sen. Helms - he was just kidding (what a funny guy!)"
posted by troutfishing at 11:02 PM on May 12, 2003

So do any of you geniuses know what happened?
posted by shoos at 1:01 AM on May 13, 2003

It's well known in the States that these agents have to follow up on EVERY threat of this kind, no matter how foolish it might seem. No reason teenagers should be exempt.

True, but federal agents telling high school students "We own you, you have no rights" is, well, a somewhat poor approach to public relations. Especially in the Oakland of Mayor Moonbeam, so close to the People's Republic of Berkeley.

The only other coverage of this story so far in Google News is from the Tri-Valley Herald. They've got the all the quote you're yearning for, shoos.

The class in question is at times "challenging," Whitney said. ... "I wasn't saying come and get these buzzards, nothing like that," she said. "If you say, 'fire' in a crowded theater, that's not a good thing to do. If you say, 'Let's kill the president,' you have to be prepared for the consequences."

posted by hairyeyeball at 1:26 AM on May 13, 2003

The all quote? Yorp.
posted by hairyeyeball at 1:27 AM on May 13, 2003

In fact, you don't say a damn thing untill you've spoken to a lawyer. If no charges are being laid, then you still aren't required to answer anything. If charges are being laid you want to know why, with what evidence and no, I will not answer anymore questions until I speak to a lawyer.

You can do that. In some cases it would be completely justified. In other cases it would be a wholly obstructionist and assholish refusal to cooperate that serves no one's interest except your lawyer and his investment banker. There's no reason to not let investigators reel out enough information about their perspective, via a few questions, because you can always say "Enough, I've changed my mind, now I want counsel."

That's why when questioned by the police or SS, you go with a lawyer or you'll get physically assaulted by the police. Period. Fact of life.

Oh please. Physically assaulted? If that's a fact of life, then it's a fact that my skin is purple and I have three ears. You've been watching too much NYPD Blech/Law & Order/other fictional television.

All that said, we still have no credible report of exactly what went down in this interrogation. This "quote" could be made up out of smoke and sunshine, and given the contamination of reports now, the real truth is likely never to be known to anyone who wasn't in that room with those kids and agents. And I think we're going to have to live with that, and accept that we just don't have enough information to use to make a pronouncement about the state of government policing efforts in the U.S. today. In fact, even if the quote were proven with a recording, we wouldn't have enough information to say that this is indicative of anything more than one or two Secret Service agents without a firm grip on the proper boundaries of their jobs. We've jumped to a lot of conclusions here, none of which have a very firm foundation.

Oh -- and as to the "right of privacy" in a school locker, it doesn't exist, but not because the users of school lockers are minors. It's because the users of school lockers are not the owners of those lockers -- the school owns them -- and use them only with a general grant of permission and for a limited purpose. If there were a written agreement for their use which spelled out a tenancy/exclusive use right, such as the lease agreement you have with your landlord or the EZ-U-Store-It where you keep your old sofa, then there would be a reasonable expectation of privacy. Without that, any appropriate agent of the owner, such as the school principal, has every right to grant permission for a search. (Just as your boss could grant permission for a search of the desk drawers in your office.)
posted by Dreama at 3:19 AM on May 13, 2003

1) Teacher reports a crime.

2) Law enforcement officials with proper jurisdiction investigate the crime, but bring no charges and arrest no one.

3) Newspaper, through unconfirmed and apparently paraphrased hearsay, reports that one unidentified law enforcement official said something that he should not have said.

4) Clearly, our civil liberties are completely trashed.

I'd post more, but I just heard the shepherd claim that a wolf is attacking my sheep.
posted by profwhat at 9:26 AM on May 13, 2003

"I tell you the looks on those childrens faces. I don't know if they'll say anything about anything ever again. Is that what we want? I don't think we want that," says Lopez.

If they're as stupid as they sound, that's exactly what I want.
posted by darren at 12:38 PM on May 13, 2003

Um, I do not have a tv. So, your programs you mention, where did the script writer get his, ahhhhh inspiration?


Shall we ask Rodney King?



Nah, he's too popular....


How many more are there that haven't been videotaped?


Plenty, I'd guess. Just a guess, you understand.


The rest? In jail, no funds, slack lawyers, you know..... the rest.
posted by alicesshoe at 9:24 PM on May 13, 2003

dumb kids. it's best to inform them early on of certain realities, such that that they have no rights under their current government and that they can be ground into little bits of hamburger if troublesome (or just as randomly chosen examples to scare others, even.)
posted by troutfishing at 9:59 PM on May 13, 2003

Tempest. Teapot.

Frog. Boiling water.

Apples. Oranges.

Heads. Tails.

Tomayto. Tomahto.

Bill of Rights. Patriot act II.

My ass. Your face.
posted by majcher at 7:06 PM on May 15, 2003

This really pisses me off.

"We own you, you don't have any legal rights."

I wonder what would happen to my mood if the president and all his little cronies suddenly were forced to listen to Migs sing the US national anthem.

And then were shot.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:32 PM on May 15, 2003