They're making a list, checking it twice....

May 15, 2003 12:52 PM

"If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future."
posted by elwoodwiles (54 comments total)

A population that walks is much easier to control.

Good thing my real name is Susan Ivanova.

Boom. Boom. BOOMBOOMBOOM!
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:58 PM on May 15, 2003

"Hello, FBI? I'd like to report suspicious, possibly terrorist, activity.. the man's name is John Ashcroft of Bangor Maine. Yes, thanks."

That'll show that fucker.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:05 PM on May 15, 2003

Would You Be Profiled? Take the quiz.
posted by homunculus at 1:07 PM on May 15, 2003

Why the heck aren't they using middle names? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. I'm David Turner, and there are plenty of David Turners around. Totally different story, though, if you throw in the middle name. How many David Gaines Turners are there?

They could save a lot of people a lot of hassle.
posted by dgt at 1:09 PM on May 15, 2003

But David Nelson doesn't sound like an Arab name, it almost sounds American!

Really though, is anyone, potentially a terrorist, going to be travelling under the same name twice? Wouldn't false IDs be step one?

And/Or with the obvious multitude of common names apparently included in these lists can they be at all affective? Have any of the suspected terrrorist been caught or detained because their 'name' was flagged?
posted by dirtylittlemonkey at 1:24 PM on May 15, 2003

they are not the slightest bit interested in saving anybody any hassle.
posted by quonsar at 1:24 PM on May 15, 2003

Clearly you David Nelsons need to all march on Washington to have a chat with The Powers That Be. I'd suggest just flying there, but you know.
posted by ilsa at 1:32 PM on May 15, 2003

I wonder what would happen if all the David Nelsons tried to get on a plane together...
posted by agregoli at 1:44 PM on May 15, 2003

Maybe we should all change our names to David Nelson. That would really confuse them.
posted by alms at 1:49 PM on May 15, 2003

My uncle is a David Nelson. I wonder if he's the terrorist they're looking for...
posted by bshort at 1:49 PM on May 15, 2003

Simple. If they make it a hassle, stop using thier service.

You don't have any RIGHT to fly, do you?!?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:49 PM on May 15, 2003

When they started cracking down on David Nelsons, I did not speak up, because my name was not David Nelson...
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:53 PM on May 15, 2003

You don't have any RIGHT to fly, do you?!?

You have the right to freedom of movement, which I'd say includes flying, INAL, of course.

I wonder what would happen if all the David Nelsons tried to get on a plane together...

It'd be great television, somebody call the Daily Show!
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:53 PM on May 15, 2003

Too bad NewsRadio's off the air. Dave Foley's character was Dave Nelson.

"Well, my flight's in 18 hours. Gotta get to the airport. Don't wanna be late for the beating." Foley in a JFK holding pen with four other Dave Nelsons played by the Kids in the Hall.
posted by basilwhite at 1:54 PM on May 15, 2003

The article seems to be making a point that once you've been hassled once and proven that you're not a threat, you should be "cleared" of any suspicion and taken off the list. But if that were the case, then all of the "terrorists" only need to make one flight with no incriminating evidence, and then they're off the hook and are free to terrorize any future flights.

This is just poor planning no matter how you look at it.
posted by MsVader at 1:55 PM on May 15, 2003

Remember Johnnie Thomas, the 70-year-old African American woman who was hassled because there was a 28-year-old white male on the list who had used the alias "John Thomas Christopher"? These people are definitely out of control.
posted by SealWyf at 1:58 PM on May 15, 2003

rough ashler - if we don't have the RIGHT to fly, do we have the RIGHT not to pay taxes for airports, control towers, the FAA, etc. etc. etc.?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:13 PM on May 15, 2003

I wonder why these Nelsons keep flying Delta. As far as I know, the TSA program (CAPPS II) is being piloted only on Delta. For a short term fix, they could avoid that airline; there's actually an official boycott. Of course, if/when TSA expands CAPPS II to all the airlines , that won't work. But one can still write letters to Congress asking them not to fund it. Because of such pressure, Congress has been threatening to defund that other program that champions civil liberties, TIA.
posted by win_k at 2:19 PM on May 15, 2003

haha... well played, basilwhite...

"These are the Dave's I know, I know, these are the Dave's I know..."

Couldn't find an online copy of the song...
posted by dgt at 2:20 PM on May 15, 2003

Bad grammar will kill you every time, dgt.
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:31 PM on May 15, 2003

Sorry, that’s CAPS II (one P). Here’s a digest and its source MIT research paper that explain why the program may be faulty:

That is to say that any CAPS-like airport security system that uses profiles to select passengers for increased scrutiny is bound to be less secure than systems that randomly select passengers for thorough inspection. Using mathematical models and computer simulation, we show how a terrorist cell can increase their chances of mounting a successful attack under the CAPS system as opposed to a security system that uses only random searches. Instinct may suggest that CAPS strengthens security, but it in fact introduces a gaping security hole easily exploitable by terrorist cells.

Uh-oh. If that’s not enough, here’s a nice finishing touch from the boycott folks:

All the information gathered [credit reports, etc.] will be stored for fifty (50!) years on computers that may or may not be safe from malicious hackers out to steal your identity. ... By their own admission, Delta’s computer servers are attacked over 500 times a day.
posted by win_k at 2:34 PM on May 15, 2003

Is anyone keeping track of all this shit? Is there a site with a list of idiotic things that they are doing that don't make anybody safer but slowly erodes not only our freedoms, but our perception of what constitutes freedom?
posted by Hildago at 2:35 PM on May 15, 2003

I don't know about a site, Hildago, but Congress, its General Accounting Office, and the DHS Inspector General are certainly interested in fixing or terminating ineffective programs. ACLU. EPIC. (off the top of my head)
posted by win_k at 2:39 PM on May 15, 2003

I'm David Nelson!
posted by donpardo at 2:42 PM on May 15, 2003

Would You Be Profiled? Take the quiz.

Tease.
posted by duckstab at 3:11 PM on May 15, 2003

I remember back in the early days of Saturday Night Live, when donpardo was proud to be Don Pardo.

I also remember when everybody KNEW David Nelson was the son on "Ozzie and Harriet" who DIDN'T sing (as much). Of course, I also remember when Mr. Nelson was the ONLY Ozzie on TV...

BTW, I am Spartacus!
yes, donp, I got your reference.
posted by wendell at 3:11 PM on May 15, 2003

Simple. If they make it a hassle, stop using thier service.

Stop using the FBI's service? How do you do that? "Oh, excuse me, Madam Airline Attendent, that can't be my name on the list, I'm not a customer of the FBI."

You don't have any RIGHT to fly, do you?!?

You have a right to participate in our society and to use its goods and services the same as everyone else. You have the right not to be unreasonably impeded from going about your business. Comes generally under the heading of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:13 PM on May 15, 2003

Stop using the FBI's service? How do you do that?

The problem's not with the FBI; it's with TSA and the particular screening program based on peoples' credit reports that doesn't have a removal mechanism. You avoid it by not flying Delta.
posted by win_k at 3:21 PM on May 15, 2003

Hildago, there's a stupid security competition so you can nominate this.
posted by dabitch at 3:26 PM on May 15, 2003

I realized after posting that it was the TSA, not the FBI, but that hardly changes the principle that you can't opt out of a watch list that the government puts you on.

You avoid it by not flying Delta.

The linked article, while it mentions Delta twice, doesn't say that the problem is confined to Delta. Do you have another soource?
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:29 PM on May 15, 2003

Couldn't we just put Ashcroft and the others on some sort of "No Govern List"?
posted by hammurderer at 3:36 PM on May 15, 2003

Stop using the FBI's service? How do you do that? "Oh, excuse me, Madam Airline Attendent

Wow! When did airline attendents start working for the FBI??!?!?!?

If I want to avoid hassle in my transport, I can pick a car, a train, or walking. If I want to be hasseled, I can take a plane.

You have a right to participate in our society and to use its goods and services the same as everyone else. You have the right not to be unreasonably impeded from going about your business.

Please show me EXACTLY where these 'rights' you claim are outlined in the US Con.

Comes generally under the heading of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

So, happyness is now an airplane ride?
If such a plastic hassle existed for walking, car, bus, train then yea, you might have a case. But, given it is *JUST* for airplanes, I don't think you have a case.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:36 PM on May 15, 2003

Well ya know, as much as i hate this stuff these guys do look suspicious...
posted by H. Roark at 3:36 PM on May 15, 2003

These are David Nelson!
posted by Joeforking at 3:40 PM on May 15, 2003

Joe, found some more David Nelson's here too. Very suspicious looking. All of them.
posted by nix at 3:45 PM on May 15, 2003

[from the quiz]
2. What can you do to get your name removed from a government “no fly” list if you are mistakenly branded a “risk?”

a. Provide more than one form of identification.
b. Ask really nicely.
c. Remove your shoes.
e. Nobody knows.

I'm going with c, have had to do it on every flight I've flown since 911, even my connections, arrgh. Usually I wear sandals for comfort but for now on, my most grunge-est socks & shoes.
posted by thomcatspike at 3:46 PM on May 15, 2003

Ozzie Nelson: son we may have been one of America's favorite TV-families, yet you can't fly, it's your name.
posted by thomcatspike at 3:50 PM on May 15, 2003

rough, do you honestly believe our rights are given to us by the U.S. Constitution? Hell, even Reagan knew better than that:

...All those other constitutions are documents that say, “We, the government, allow the people the following rights,” and our Constitution says “We, the People, allow the government the following privileges and rights.

posted by George_Spiggott at 3:50 PM on May 15, 2003

His name is David Nelson.
posted by angry modem at 4:14 PM on May 15, 2003

The linked article, while it mentions Delta twice, doesn't say that the problem is confined to Delta. Do you have another soource?

Yes, in my first comment. But if you can't read that, try here or here. Of course, if you're thinking about CAPS (I), then you're right, it's not just Delta. But I thought we were talking about CAPS II, the one that's pulling credit reports and blacklisting passengers. The first version has been around since before 9/11 and wasn't as intrusive.
posted by win_k at 4:20 PM on May 15, 2003

"These are the Dave's I know, I know, these are the Dave's I know..."

Couldn't find an online copy of the song...
posted by t r a c y at 4:27 PM on May 15, 2003

Indeed, Rough, you might want to check out the 9th and 10th amendments for some perspective.
posted by Hildago at 4:30 PM on May 15, 2003

rough ashlar - you still haven't answered my question. Not that you can.
posted by pyramid termite at 4:46 PM on May 15, 2003

Is anyone keeping track of all this shit? Is there a site with a list of idiotic things that they are doing that don't make anybody safer but slowly erodes not only our freedoms, but our perception of what constitutes freedom?

This might be what you want.
posted by frykitty at 5:20 PM on May 15, 2003

Sure, don't fly Delta. Unless you are in Cincinnati or Atlanta, in which case, its about your only choice because they are delta hubs. Worse is Cincinnati, where the only real airline is Delta, and most of the other airlines are flying turboprops to connecting flights. If you want a direct flight to anywhere good, you have to fly Delta.

But I suppose I don't have the right to fly? The government is restricting trade inter-state with these lists, something the federal government shouldn't be allowed to do.

Remember when Republicans were for smaller federal government and more state's rights, and letting states make some of the security arrangements.

But the world has changed, they say, since September 11. Nope, didn't change. It just splattered on the US. All those poor 3000 people died, never mind the thousands upon thousands the US killed in Iraq for 'liberation', but as long as it gets people to not fly because it becomes a pain in the ass.

The airline industry is going bankrupt, the feds keep bailing them out, while wondering why they aren't doing better. Maybe its because you stuck a magnetic detector wand up my ass the last time I flew, and I don't want it happening again. And I mean this literally, someone jabbed a magnetic detector wand up my ass. I guess I should have worn jeans instead of cotton shorts.
posted by benjh at 5:34 PM on May 15, 2003

Also on Rough Ashlar's point about choosing other transportation, via EPIC: In the future there is a risk that a CAPPS-II system might be deployed for the government to control access to all forms of transportation, including ships, trains, and buses, and might also encompass government buildings and public spaces. That sounds alarmist; but then again, maybe not.

Via frykitty’s link (gracias), more EPIC: 2003 Privacy Threat Index. A mini-review and a rating, color-coded to match the DHS threat levels. Currently yellow.
posted by win_k at 5:39 PM on May 15, 2003

Article 5: No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...

Article 9: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Article 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Article 14: ...nor shall any State...deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

A lot hinges on the two words "due process". Putting people on an arbitrary list with no oversight and no way to update or appeal one's placement on the list seems like a pretty flagrant violation of due process.

And a note on "rights"--many, many of the rights a U.S. citizen has come from centuries of English legal tradition. When those rights were spelled out in the Constitution, they weren't being invented, they were being engraved in stone so that a future judicial decision couldn't overturn them. English citizens in the 1790s already had the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, for example, but the judicial precendent wasn't that old, so the U.S. founding fathers wanted to make sure the idea stuck around. Plus, they threw in Amendments 9 and 10 to say, among other things, "Hey, if we missed any legal rights, that doesn't mean they just disappeared. You still got 'em."

Due process is sort of a shorthand for all the good old rules that govern the way courtrooms and legislatures are run in our legal system, going all the way back to the Magna Carta, including a lot of things not elsewhere mentioned in the Constitution, but still in force under Amendments 9 & 10. Like, the government cannot simply pass a law that takes property away from one private person and gives it to another.Or...I'm guessing here...the government can't just throw people on a blacklist with no means of appeal.

I got a hunch the 14th could come into play here, too, if the government is creating an arbitrary list of people and denying them legal rights that should apply to everybody.

(Not a lawyer, yada, yada...)
posted by gimonca at 5:50 PM on May 15, 2003

I'm neither a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar, but my understanding is that the Constitution is in no way an enumeration of our rights. (See FindLaw's commentary on the 9th Amendment for a basic discussion of this position.) our native state, or starting assumption, is that we have all the rights in the world. The Constitution doesn't say what rights we have, but rather what rights the government may not legislate against. In saying "Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech" it's not saying "one of the few rights you have is to speak freely" it's saying that Congress may not legislate against the right to speak freely.

The Constitution doesn't limit us explicitly or by omission, it limits what the government may do.

For the good of all, a duly constituted legislature, elected by the people, may pass laws abridging rights not specifically protected in the Constitution, but until they do so, those rights our ours. That which is not illegal is protected from unreasonable government interference.

Now, a case that Rough could have made but didn't, is that Delta has the right to do business as it sees fit, and if that means subjecting people to inordinate scrutiny and interference on the basis of very poor government-supplied information, then in the absence of a specific law prohibiting them from doing so they are entitled to do it. That is as may be, I really would have to be a lawyer to comment.

So it comes down to a question of whether David Nelson's travails are merely very poor business practices on the part of the airlines, or whether they constitute improper and unwarranted government interference with a citizen's unchallenged freedom of action and movement. If the airline's practices derive from government edict, and they are based on government information, I'd say it was the latter, and therefore a Constitutional issue.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:39 PM on May 15, 2003

I'm David Nelson and so is my wife!
posted by jozxyqk at 9:01 PM on May 15, 2003

You know, myself, a friend of mine, and his brother are planning an international trip to NYC.

I'm seriously reconsidering that right now, considering they're both muslim, Pakistani, and named Abdul. I really don't need this sort of hassle.

Hopefully all US tourist destinations will start to dry up. Perhaps that will send a message to your government? :)
posted by shepd at 11:49 PM on May 15, 2003

There's a little David Nelson in all of us.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:32 AM on May 16, 2003

considering they're both ... named Abdul.

Doesn't that get confusing?
posted by Summer at 2:32 AM on May 16, 2003

So the reasoning goes like this:
Guy #1: "This David Nelson guy from Somewhereville is apparently a really, really bad person. How do we catch him?"
Guy #2: "There's probably only one or two guys in the whole US with that name, and even though he's a wanted criminal, he'll probably give his real name at airport check-ins."
#1: "So you mean we should hassle everyone with the same name who wants to fly somewhere?"
#2: "I was going to suggest we get some take-out and a Schwartzenegger movie, but your idea is good too."
#1: "That's settled, then - moving on..."

I realize a certain amount of trial and failure is required in any job, but come on - this is a no-brainer!
posted by spazzm at 3:16 AM on May 16, 2003

Well, in Boston subway nowadays there are new posters telling you what to do in case of emergency (some vague emergency, and vague instructions like "do not panic"). And the tag line is Together We Prepare.

My point: I do not think this is about catching criminals, preventing terrorism, etc. I am fairly sure this is about scaring people, because scared people are easier to manipulate.

-Have you seen those posters on the train today? Do you realize we can be attacked any moment?
-Yes, why doesn't the goverment go kill somebody to prevent that!

I am so depressed today... at least I am not David Nelson.
posted by adzuki at 7:57 AM on May 16, 2003