Give all new meaning to Meatballs don't it?
June 18, 2003 9:03 PM Subscribe
I'm getting better at volleyball, too.
Parents looking to add a little excitement to their kids summer routine have a new option in Florida and Arizona (and soon in Texas)... Nudist Summer Camp for Teens. According to this NYT article kids at the nudist camp really don't see what the big deal is. The camps are organized by the American Association for Nude Recreation (Link NSFCWP) who seem to be on the ball in terms of safety and providing a good environment for the kids. The article also introduces a new TLA; COG - for Creepy Old Guy. If you're interested in sending the youngsters to a camp they'll remember for years to come - this page sheds light on what they can expect.
So, would you send your kids to the camp? Have you been to a nudist resort yourself? How's your vollyball game?
Parents looking to add a little excitement to their kids summer routine have a new option in Florida and Arizona (and soon in Texas)... Nudist Summer Camp for Teens. According to this NYT article kids at the nudist camp really don't see what the big deal is. The camps are organized by the American Association for Nude Recreation (Link NSFCWP) who seem to be on the ball in terms of safety and providing a good environment for the kids. The article also introduces a new TLA; COG - for Creepy Old Guy. If you're interested in sending the youngsters to a camp they'll remember for years to come - this page sheds light on what they can expect.
So, would you send your kids to the camp? Have you been to a nudist resort yourself? How's your vollyball game?
Yeah, the ages for the camp are 11-15...prime humiliation years...naked would just make things so much worse.
posted by dejah420 at 10:16 PM on June 18, 2003
posted by dejah420 at 10:16 PM on June 18, 2003
dejah: The Times article seems to posit that the kids, immersed in an environment where everyone is naked, gain a great deal of confidence about their own body image and don't approach nudity or even sexuality with the same intense sense of mystery, forboding, and curiosity common to those tender years (at least the latter ones in that interval). If this is the case, it sounds healthy to me.
posted by tss at 10:29 PM on June 18, 2003
posted by tss at 10:29 PM on June 18, 2003
Or your money. Where would you keep that?
Is this camp socialist as well as nudist?
posted by ODiV at 10:29 PM on June 18, 2003
Is this camp socialist as well as nudist?
posted by ODiV at 10:29 PM on June 18, 2003
Also gives new meaning to the new (stright to video) entry into the "Air Bud" saga, "Air Bud Strikes Back".
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:31 PM on June 18, 2003
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:31 PM on June 18, 2003
Yeah, TSS, I get that part of their message...but the camp is aimed at kids 11-15. I think that's too old. By that age, a moral value has already been assigned, consciously or unconsciously, to the state know as nude.
Most girls have started menstrating by those ages. Boys have wet dreams. Throwing naked teenagers together just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about naked. People who want to be naked, are free to be naked everywhere they want, including my house if I put towels down on the furniture first.
When my son is old enough to do that kid thing of taking off all his clothes and running around the yard yelling "I'm naked, I'm naked, I'm naked!", the only thing I'll be trying to force him to wear is sunblock.
But children old enough to have pubic hair, whom have spent a relatively repressed mid-America life up to that point, are not likely to learn the lessons proposed by the camp. I'm betting it's 4 parts embarrassment to 2 parts titillation.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I know I would have run away to join the circus before I'd let my parents stick me in a nudist summer camp at 15.
posted by dejah420 at 11:12 PM on June 18, 2003
Most girls have started menstrating by those ages. Boys have wet dreams. Throwing naked teenagers together just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all about naked. People who want to be naked, are free to be naked everywhere they want, including my house if I put towels down on the furniture first.
When my son is old enough to do that kid thing of taking off all his clothes and running around the yard yelling "I'm naked, I'm naked, I'm naked!", the only thing I'll be trying to force him to wear is sunblock.
But children old enough to have pubic hair, whom have spent a relatively repressed mid-America life up to that point, are not likely to learn the lessons proposed by the camp. I'm betting it's 4 parts embarrassment to 2 parts titillation.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I know I would have run away to join the circus before I'd let my parents stick me in a nudist summer camp at 15.
posted by dejah420 at 11:12 PM on June 18, 2003
Why are nudists so unsexy? There's an answer to this, I'm sure, but I don't like thinking about nudism.
posted by ArcAm at 11:29 PM on June 18, 2003
posted by ArcAm at 11:29 PM on June 18, 2003
I'm guessing most of the kids sent to the camp have not been brought up in a "repressed mid-America" kind of environment... I don't think a conventionally thinking parent would send their child to a nudist summer camp.
posted by bubukaba at 11:38 PM on June 18, 2003
posted by bubukaba at 11:38 PM on June 18, 2003
dejah420 spake: But children old enough to have pubic hair, whom have spent a relatively repressed mid-America life up to that point, are not likely to learn the lessons proposed by the camp. I'm betting it's 4 parts embarrassment to 2 parts titillation.
I disagree.
First, many (though not all) of the kids attending the AANR camps have been raised as nudists, so (to them) it's just another summer at camp -- though these camps do try to instill some measure of leadership and communications skills.
Second, as to "4 parts embarrassment," it strikes me that you've probably never been to a nudist resort or beach before (not judging you, but just observing from your comments). Kids, and especially teens, are (as you may have heard) big into the peer acceptance scene, and many of them who *might* be embarrassed in this situation by themselves are made eminently comfortable by the gaggle of other kids enjoying themselves without being embarrassed. The same is largely true for adults making the first trip to the beach or club: what they *imagine* they will feel is vastly different from what they actually *do* feel once they're there and nude. Someone more eloquent than me once said that there's really nothing less dramatic than taking off your clothes in front of 300 people who are already nude. It's simply not shocking (in fact, lots of people who choose to remain partially- or fully-clothed report that *they* feel out of place in their state of dress).
And as to "2 parts titillation," that's another common fear that doesn't materialize. Being nude is generally far *less* sexually-charged than running around with four square inches of cloth covering certain body parts -- in fact, that tends to exaggerate and call attention to the body parts people are most worried about. For many teens [and adults, too], there's more a feeling of relief: *everyone* looks more-or-less the same, and *everyone* goes through the same physical changes as you're going through/have gone through. There's much more sexual energy to be found in fantasizing about what nude people look like and do than there is to be found in the reality of it. This isn't to say that sexual arousal never happens -- it just doesn't hapen any more than with any other social teen-oriented activity (and, in fact, probably less so, for the reasons presented above).
But, I suppose it's like trying to explain an elephant to someone who's never seen one: I can objectively explain the parts and features, and how most people perceive them, but you probably won't believe me until you see it for yourself.
posted by wdpeck at 11:49 PM on June 18, 2003
I disagree.
First, many (though not all) of the kids attending the AANR camps have been raised as nudists, so (to them) it's just another summer at camp -- though these camps do try to instill some measure of leadership and communications skills.
Second, as to "4 parts embarrassment," it strikes me that you've probably never been to a nudist resort or beach before (not judging you, but just observing from your comments). Kids, and especially teens, are (as you may have heard) big into the peer acceptance scene, and many of them who *might* be embarrassed in this situation by themselves are made eminently comfortable by the gaggle of other kids enjoying themselves without being embarrassed. The same is largely true for adults making the first trip to the beach or club: what they *imagine* they will feel is vastly different from what they actually *do* feel once they're there and nude. Someone more eloquent than me once said that there's really nothing less dramatic than taking off your clothes in front of 300 people who are already nude. It's simply not shocking (in fact, lots of people who choose to remain partially- or fully-clothed report that *they* feel out of place in their state of dress).
And as to "2 parts titillation," that's another common fear that doesn't materialize. Being nude is generally far *less* sexually-charged than running around with four square inches of cloth covering certain body parts -- in fact, that tends to exaggerate and call attention to the body parts people are most worried about. For many teens [and adults, too], there's more a feeling of relief: *everyone* looks more-or-less the same, and *everyone* goes through the same physical changes as you're going through/have gone through. There's much more sexual energy to be found in fantasizing about what nude people look like and do than there is to be found in the reality of it. This isn't to say that sexual arousal never happens -- it just doesn't hapen any more than with any other social teen-oriented activity (and, in fact, probably less so, for the reasons presented above).
But, I suppose it's like trying to explain an elephant to someone who's never seen one: I can objectively explain the parts and features, and how most people perceive them, but you probably won't believe me until you see it for yourself.
posted by wdpeck at 11:49 PM on June 18, 2003
Well put, wdpeck.
The same is largely true for adults making the first trip to the beach or club: what they *imagine* they will feel is vastly different from what they actually *do* feel once they're there and nude.
S'truth.
posted by y2karl at 12:02 AM on June 19, 2003
The same is largely true for adults making the first trip to the beach or club: what they *imagine* they will feel is vastly different from what they actually *do* feel once they're there and nude.
S'truth.
posted by y2karl at 12:02 AM on June 19, 2003
For California: The Guardian's 29th annual nude beach guide.
posted by homunculus at 12:21 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by homunculus at 12:21 AM on June 19, 2003
According to the site the kids are already active in a nudist club.
WHO: 11-15 yrs. old or middle school students in the 2002-2003 school year, with recommendation from home club.
Kinda like all the church kids in youth group going to Bible camp.
posted by sadie01221975 at 12:26 AM on June 19, 2003
WHO: 11-15 yrs. old or middle school students in the 2002-2003 school year, with recommendation from home club.
Kinda like all the church kids in youth group going to Bible camp.
posted by sadie01221975 at 12:26 AM on June 19, 2003
PARENTS, WE OFFER YOUR CHILD THE FOLLOWING:
Structured, supervised youth activities.
Wholesome, safe nudist environment.
Intense, educational, challenging nudist experiences.
Fun, enthusiastic nudist youth interacting with other fun enthusiastic nudist youth.
Whether novice, reluctant or enthusiastic, your youth camper will have a renewed self-esteem, appreciation and enthusiasm for the nudist lifestyle.
Where I live, that's grounds for a pregnancy.
posted by konolia at 12:33 AM on June 19, 2003
Structured, supervised youth activities.
Wholesome, safe nudist environment.
Intense, educational, challenging nudist experiences.
Fun, enthusiastic nudist youth interacting with other fun enthusiastic nudist youth.
Whether novice, reluctant or enthusiastic, your youth camper will have a renewed self-esteem, appreciation and enthusiasm for the nudist lifestyle.
Where I live, that's grounds for a pregnancy.
posted by konolia at 12:33 AM on June 19, 2003
I haven't gone to nudist resorts yet, but I own a hot tub, go nude hot tubbing with friends, and see most of them nude on a fairly regular basis, just because nude hot tubbing is a great wayt to spend time. Just because I see nude bodies doesn't mean that I sexualize them... though I can still appreciate them, their differences, tattoos, piercings, etc.
I wasn't raised as a nudist, so I am still a bit self-concious... but better than I used to be, certainly. It can be liberating to be nude. I just wish that there was less of a social judgement in this country made regarding nudity, however, especially when it comes to bathing, sunning, spas, saunas, etc.
Oh, and I have also been to Kiva, which is lovely. Then again, Linus Torvalds has been there too. Good saunas kick serious ass, and I pity the foo who has never visited one.
Still, I don't really want to run around nude playing vollyball, purely for comfort reasons. Not everything needs to be done in the nude!
"It's at times like these the great heaven knows
That we wish we had not so many clothes
So let's loosen up with a playful tease
Like all lovers did through the centuries..."
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:44 AM on June 19, 2003
I wasn't raised as a nudist, so I am still a bit self-concious... but better than I used to be, certainly. It can be liberating to be nude. I just wish that there was less of a social judgement in this country made regarding nudity, however, especially when it comes to bathing, sunning, spas, saunas, etc.
Oh, and I have also been to Kiva, which is lovely. Then again, Linus Torvalds has been there too. Good saunas kick serious ass, and I pity the foo who has never visited one.
Still, I don't really want to run around nude playing vollyball, purely for comfort reasons. Not everything needs to be done in the nude!
"It's at times like these the great heaven knows
That we wish we had not so many clothes
So let's loosen up with a playful tease
Like all lovers did through the centuries..."
posted by insomnia_lj at 12:44 AM on June 19, 2003
Some friends and I back in alaska used to spend time in a sauna nude, and after a while jump into a hole in the frozen lake and then back into the sauna. It was great, refreshing, and we were all totally comfortable with our bodies. Before that, I never would have imagined I'd be naked in front of all my friends.
posted by premiumpolar at 1:21 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by premiumpolar at 1:21 AM on June 19, 2003
Kinda like all the church kids in youth group going to Bible camp.
Sort of like the Episcopal church camp I went to as a teenager--a highly structured environment where we were discreetly monitored by the counselors at all times. There was no way you could get away from their eagle eyes. I suspect this set up is the same for the same reasons--in a phrase: Insurance premiums.
Where I live, that's grounds for a pregnancy.
Under such circumstances, only if it involves a virgin birth.
posted by y2karl at 3:19 AM on June 19, 2003
Sort of like the Episcopal church camp I went to as a teenager--a highly structured environment where we were discreetly monitored by the counselors at all times. There was no way you could get away from their eagle eyes. I suspect this set up is the same for the same reasons--in a phrase: Insurance premiums.
Where I live, that's grounds for a pregnancy.
Under such circumstances, only if it involves a virgin birth.
posted by y2karl at 3:19 AM on June 19, 2003
Under such circumstances, only if it involves a virgin birth.
That may not be a problem
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:49 AM on June 19, 2003
That may not be a problem
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:49 AM on June 19, 2003
alright, has anyone noticed that it all goes down at "white tail park"? stranger than fiction......
posted by three| at 4:02 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by three| at 4:02 AM on June 19, 2003
only if it involves a virgin birth.
I thought most births were of virgins... If not there's some seriously sick stuff going on on America... ;)
posted by twine42 at 4:21 AM on June 19, 2003
I thought most births were of virgins... If not there's some seriously sick stuff going on on America... ;)
posted by twine42 at 4:21 AM on June 19, 2003
I took a look at the rules and this bit, "Parents and guests are not to enter designated camp area unless invited by director," would concern me. It goes on to say that, "Parents can forward messages to youth through camp director," this sounds like you can't talk to your children without going through the director.
As a parent, there is no way, no how, I'm going to send my kid off to a camp (nude or not) where I am not welcome and am prevented from talking to them. This is not intended to reflect on nudism in general but to take a bunch of kids, deny them contact with their parents and have them mentored by older teens, strikes me as a recipe for disaster.
posted by cedar at 5:25 AM on June 19, 2003
As a parent, there is no way, no how, I'm going to send my kid off to a camp (nude or not) where I am not welcome and am prevented from talking to them. This is not intended to reflect on nudism in general but to take a bunch of kids, deny them contact with their parents and have them mentored by older teens, strikes me as a recipe for disaster.
posted by cedar at 5:25 AM on June 19, 2003
The University of British Columbia is ringed by Wreck Beach, which is possibly the only nude beach in Canada. The most celebrated, at least. Although on my forays down the cliffs to the beach way back when, during my years of boozy UBC book-larnin', I didn't exactly stand and point at the wrinkly brown naked people unattractively spreadeagled on the sand, I was then and remain now somewhat mystified at the urge to get nekkid in public.
Naked is good, yup, but wilfully doffing the duds when there are other, random folks around just seems larded with a smorgasbord of unspoken, uh, ickinesses to me, to be honest. But that may just be my Northern upbringing, and the psychic remnants of Really Bad Acne as a teen.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:25 AM on June 19, 2003
Naked is good, yup, but wilfully doffing the duds when there are other, random folks around just seems larded with a smorgasbord of unspoken, uh, ickinesses to me, to be honest. But that may just be my Northern upbringing, and the psychic remnants of Really Bad Acne as a teen.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:25 AM on June 19, 2003
When I lived in South Florida I used to go to Haulover Beach all the time. I couldnt wait to strip down and enjoy myself. But at the same for years, I didn't like going to conventional beaches because I'd hate taking my shirt off and exposing my scrawny, acne strewn upper body.
I'm not sure why this is. But as someone who grew up in what dejah called a "relatively repressed" background, I'll say that just maybe, this camp isn't so completely nuts.
posted by jonmc at 5:27 AM on June 19, 2003
I'm not sure why this is. But as someone who grew up in what dejah called a "relatively repressed" background, I'll say that just maybe, this camp isn't so completely nuts.
posted by jonmc at 5:27 AM on June 19, 2003
So, let's see. In certain areas of Florida and Texas, taking a picture of your two 5-year-olds in the bathtub will get you arrested. But you're free to send your pre-pubescent children off to be naked with strangers. Okay.
posted by stonerose at 5:35 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by stonerose at 5:35 AM on June 19, 2003
What's with nudists and volleyball? Also, I don't believe for a minute that arousal isn't a part of the experience for these kids. I spent a good 6-7 years as a teenage boy, and I can tell you arousal is a part of EVERY experience at that age. At least there's no shortage of places to hang those towels.
posted by luser at 6:01 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by luser at 6:01 AM on June 19, 2003
Why are nudists so unsexy?
And that, my friends, is the whole point. Nudism de-sexualizes the human body. The kids will be fine. I was raised a nudist and believe it or not, there are no extra issues when you - or your friends - hit puberty. Just because everyone is nude doesn't mean that you immediately engage in group sex. On the other hand, do you think *not* being nude all day will prevent a pair of teenagers in love from getting together ... while staying at the same camp?
prime humiliation years...naked would just make things so much worse
I actually think it has a big potential of making things a lot better. Ever heard the one about the big bad bully who arrived at nudist camp with a real tiny dick? Ever heard the one about how being in the nude prevents you from relying on the brand name of your attire/accessories to bond socially?
posted by magullo at 6:02 AM on June 19, 2003
And that, my friends, is the whole point. Nudism de-sexualizes the human body. The kids will be fine. I was raised a nudist and believe it or not, there are no extra issues when you - or your friends - hit puberty. Just because everyone is nude doesn't mean that you immediately engage in group sex. On the other hand, do you think *not* being nude all day will prevent a pair of teenagers in love from getting together ... while staying at the same camp?
prime humiliation years...naked would just make things so much worse
I actually think it has a big potential of making things a lot better. Ever heard the one about the big bad bully who arrived at nudist camp with a real tiny dick? Ever heard the one about how being in the nude prevents you from relying on the brand name of your attire/accessories to bond socially?
posted by magullo at 6:02 AM on June 19, 2003
Wait a minute. Finish that story about the big bad bully in the nudist camp. Does it end with him burying his head in his pillow sobbing, and the skinniest most timid kid comes along and tells him everything's OK, and they get to be best pals for the rest of the summer?
posted by luser at 6:15 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by luser at 6:15 AM on June 19, 2003
When I was in college, we used to play a game on the West Mall of the UT campus called, "Would You Like To See Them Naked?" It consisted of watching people walk by and saying "yes" or "no", depending on whether you personally would care to see a given person naked. The "no" votes outweighed the "yes" votes by a significant factor. The conclusion: most people aren't that fun to look at naked. Anyone who's ever seen the HBO show "Real Sex" needs no further confirmation.
If the price of nudist freedom is being forced to look at a bunch of sagging nudists flopping around the pool and volleyball court, I consider that price too high by half. I like my expectations of the human body unrealistic and molded by the media, the way God intended them to be.
posted by vraxoin at 6:16 AM on June 19, 2003
If the price of nudist freedom is being forced to look at a bunch of sagging nudists flopping around the pool and volleyball court, I consider that price too high by half. I like my expectations of the human body unrealistic and molded by the media, the way God intended them to be.
posted by vraxoin at 6:16 AM on June 19, 2003
Ahem...
Won't somebody please think of the children!
(sorry, it had to be done, surprised it took 30 posts)
posted by Localemperor at 6:42 AM on June 19, 2003
Won't somebody please think of the children!
(sorry, it had to be done, surprised it took 30 posts)
posted by Localemperor at 6:42 AM on June 19, 2003
Nude beaches are definitely un-sexy. There is nothing sexy about an old couple walking down the beach leaving trails in the sand because their various parts are sagging so low they are touching the ground. That said, there is no feeling in the world like swimming naked in the ocean!
My first nude-beach experience was completely bizarre because I was sure I would be so freaked out by it, expecially with a group of my friends, and once all the clothes came off, we all took a second to look at each other naked, and then it was pretty relaxing actually. And now I love the nude beaches, which is odd because I am not someone who likes to be naked around other people or even when I am alone. I had major body issues growing up and I always hated going to the beach with my family because I never even wanted to take my shirt off in front of people.
I almost wish my parents were nudists because that would have changed a lot of things about how I look at myself. I don't think anyone who is not a nudist would even consider sending their kids to such a camp. I would have been mortified if my parents had.
posted by archimago at 6:53 AM on June 19, 2003
My first nude-beach experience was completely bizarre because I was sure I would be so freaked out by it, expecially with a group of my friends, and once all the clothes came off, we all took a second to look at each other naked, and then it was pretty relaxing actually. And now I love the nude beaches, which is odd because I am not someone who likes to be naked around other people or even when I am alone. I had major body issues growing up and I always hated going to the beach with my family because I never even wanted to take my shirt off in front of people.
I almost wish my parents were nudists because that would have changed a lot of things about how I look at myself. I don't think anyone who is not a nudist would even consider sending their kids to such a camp. I would have been mortified if my parents had.
posted by archimago at 6:53 AM on June 19, 2003
What I want to know, premiumpolar and insomnia_lj, is how many of your friends you've slept with, and if it ever happened after one of these innocuous naked get-togethers.
posted by kgasmart at 6:57 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by kgasmart at 6:57 AM on June 19, 2003
A band I was in once got a gig in a nudist camp...kids, teens, grown-ups and grandparents all relaxed and clothed, semiclothed or nude (it was a cool day in September). Despite all our nervous giggling on the way to the job, it was actually, as some have pointed out, surprisingly unsexy. Just a bunch of families, camping out, swimming, and, of course, playing volleyball. What is it with nudists and volleyball, anyway?
posted by kozad at 7:24 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by kozad at 7:24 AM on June 19, 2003
Song about going naked outdoors (3rd link down, by yous truly).
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:35 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by ZenMasterThis at 7:35 AM on June 19, 2003
What is it with nudists and volleyball, anyway?
Unlike some other sports, Volleyball required no specialized personal gear (such as padding or bats) and generally there's not much in the way of person to person contact. The sport doesn't require too much talent for the group activity to be fun. In addition certain parts of the body kind of bounce around in entertaining ways while playing the sport.
Shuffle board, tennis and Mini Golf courses are also popular at some of the better outfitted nude resorts. Rugby, football (both American and international varieties) and wrestling are a bit too touchy for the nudist lifestyle.
posted by DragonBoy at 7:41 AM on June 19, 2003
Unlike some other sports, Volleyball required no specialized personal gear (such as padding or bats) and generally there's not much in the way of person to person contact. The sport doesn't require too much talent for the group activity to be fun. In addition certain parts of the body kind of bounce around in entertaining ways while playing the sport.
Shuffle board, tennis and Mini Golf courses are also popular at some of the better outfitted nude resorts. Rugby, football (both American and international varieties) and wrestling are a bit too touchy for the nudist lifestyle.
posted by DragonBoy at 7:41 AM on June 19, 2003
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posted by Ayn Marx at 7:57 AM on June 19, 2003
a bit too touchy for the nudist lifestyle
makes my eyes water...
posted by monkey closet at 8:05 AM on June 19, 2003
makes my eyes water...
posted by monkey closet at 8:05 AM on June 19, 2003
cedar remarked:
As a parent, there is no way, no how, I'm going to send my kid off to a camp (nude or not) where I am not welcome and am prevented from talking to them. This is not intended to reflect on nudism in general but to take a bunch of kids, deny them contact with their parents and have them mentored by older teens, strikes me as a recipe for disaster.
Have you ever BEEN to summer camp? The point is that you get the kids away from the parents and let them open up and discover themselves. Having parents running around disturbing everything, not to mention making kids and counselors second guess themselves, runs counter to the entire idea!
If you don't like the counselors or the camp, don't send your kids there, plain and simple.
Also...I have a free pass to Lake Como. I should check it out .
posted by taumeson at 8:40 AM on June 19, 2003
As a parent, there is no way, no how, I'm going to send my kid off to a camp (nude or not) where I am not welcome and am prevented from talking to them. This is not intended to reflect on nudism in general but to take a bunch of kids, deny them contact with their parents and have them mentored by older teens, strikes me as a recipe for disaster.
Have you ever BEEN to summer camp? The point is that you get the kids away from the parents and let them open up and discover themselves. Having parents running around disturbing everything, not to mention making kids and counselors second guess themselves, runs counter to the entire idea!
If you don't like the counselors or the camp, don't send your kids there, plain and simple.
Also...I have a free pass to Lake Como. I should check it out .
posted by taumeson at 8:40 AM on June 19, 2003
> What I want to know, premiumpolar and insomnia_lj, is how many of your friends you've slept with, and if it ever happened after one of these innocuous naked get-togethers.
Yeah, me too.
Maybe it was growing up with parents who were secretly swingers and nudists that made me look down on both (after all, if you're secretive about it, it implies some sort of shame, IMHO), but I've personally seen an awful lot of people who combine the two and think nothing of it.
I'm not saying that there aren't nudists who do it strictly for the "liberating" factor or whatever, but I'm saying that there are a lot more that are doing it for the titillation factor.
Seriously. When's the last time you went skinny-dipping and didn't get a charge out of seeing other people naked?
posted by scottq at 8:44 AM on June 19, 2003
Yeah, me too.
Maybe it was growing up with parents who were secretly swingers and nudists that made me look down on both (after all, if you're secretive about it, it implies some sort of shame, IMHO), but I've personally seen an awful lot of people who combine the two and think nothing of it.
I'm not saying that there aren't nudists who do it strictly for the "liberating" factor or whatever, but I'm saying that there are a lot more that are doing it for the titillation factor.
Seriously. When's the last time you went skinny-dipping and didn't get a charge out of seeing other people naked?
posted by scottq at 8:44 AM on June 19, 2003
Throwing naked teenagers together just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Or, the best time of your life.
posted by the fire you left me at 8:48 AM on June 19, 2003
Or, the best time of your life.
posted by the fire you left me at 8:48 AM on June 19, 2003
Stavros, Wreck Beach is the best known, but not the only nude beach in Canada.
posted by teg at 8:49 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by teg at 8:49 AM on June 19, 2003
vraoxin, did you see me on West Mall in '84-'85? What did you think? ;o)
posted by alumshubby at 9:05 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by alumshubby at 9:05 AM on June 19, 2003
taumeson:"Have you ever BEEN to summer camp? The point is that you get the kids away from the parents and let them open up and discover themselves."
Yep, and so have my children. Of the several camps I have personal expierience with not only are parents allowed to visit but they are encouraged to. As far as the director passing along messages being acceptable... it's absurd. These kids are in camp, not jail, boot camp or rehab and I find it ludicrous that my contact with them is moderated by a third party.
As far as counselors "second guessing" themselves goes, that's just too damn bad. They're employees providing a service that I am paying for and I am entitled to a measure of accountability. Without the ability to contact my kids directly and/or witness their activities, that accountability is lost. There is a vast difference between "running around disturbing everything" and making an effort to adequately evaluate the environment.
Simply put, my responsibility for my children does not end when I surrender them to anothers care. It may be archaic but there is no fucking way my children are going anywhere that I am not welcome. This has little to do with the fact it's a nudist camp, but more to do with restrictive policies that hinder my ability to assure myself of my childrens safety and happiness.
posted by cedar at 9:26 AM on June 19, 2003
Yep, and so have my children. Of the several camps I have personal expierience with not only are parents allowed to visit but they are encouraged to. As far as the director passing along messages being acceptable... it's absurd. These kids are in camp, not jail, boot camp or rehab and I find it ludicrous that my contact with them is moderated by a third party.
As far as counselors "second guessing" themselves goes, that's just too damn bad. They're employees providing a service that I am paying for and I am entitled to a measure of accountability. Without the ability to contact my kids directly and/or witness their activities, that accountability is lost. There is a vast difference between "running around disturbing everything" and making an effort to adequately evaluate the environment.
Simply put, my responsibility for my children does not end when I surrender them to anothers care. It may be archaic but there is no fucking way my children are going anywhere that I am not welcome. This has little to do with the fact it's a nudist camp, but more to do with restrictive policies that hinder my ability to assure myself of my childrens safety and happiness.
posted by cedar at 9:26 AM on June 19, 2003
There was a tradition of "naked parties" at my college, several of which I went too. You can imagine it, a smokey, sweaty room, too much alcohol and pot, and lots and lots of kids who are generally pretty sexual.
But the amazing thing, as has been repeated here many times, was that being nude desexualized the party. The parties I went to where people were supposed to show up in the skimpiest clothing possible (string bikinis for the women, etc) were far FAR more sexual than the naked party....it was interesting.
posted by pjgulliver at 9:34 AM on June 19, 2003
But the amazing thing, as has been repeated here many times, was that being nude desexualized the party. The parties I went to where people were supposed to show up in the skimpiest clothing possible (string bikinis for the women, etc) were far FAR more sexual than the naked party....it was interesting.
posted by pjgulliver at 9:34 AM on June 19, 2003
Ayn Marx:" Welcome to The New York Times on the Web!"
Yeah, I noticed this several years ago when I signed up for it. Your point?
Also, see MetaTalk for potential solutions.
posted by cedar at 9:40 AM on June 19, 2003
Yeah, I noticed this several years ago when I signed up for it. Your point?
Also, see MetaTalk for potential solutions.
posted by cedar at 9:40 AM on June 19, 2003
pjgulliver:
Just where did you go to school?
There was a tradition of "naked parties" at my college, several of which I went too. You can imagine it, a smokey, sweaty room, too much alcohol and pot, and lots and lots of kids who are generally pretty sexual.
I went to a college where a condom giveaway at a play about AIDS was halted by the administration and I saw almost no naked people in my two years.
Remind me to hunt down and kill my guidance counselor.
posted by jonmc at 9:46 AM on June 19, 2003
Just where did you go to school?
There was a tradition of "naked parties" at my college, several of which I went too. You can imagine it, a smokey, sweaty room, too much alcohol and pot, and lots and lots of kids who are generally pretty sexual.
I went to a college where a condom giveaway at a play about AIDS was halted by the administration and I saw almost no naked people in my two years.
Remind me to hunt down and kill my guidance counselor.
posted by jonmc at 9:46 AM on June 19, 2003
I think there should be a mandatory annual world-wide naked week. As seasonally appropriate, of course.
posted by widdershins at 9:56 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by widdershins at 9:56 AM on June 19, 2003
Yale.
posted by pjgulliver at 10:06 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by pjgulliver at 10:06 AM on June 19, 2003
Oh, so it was like my high school's Debate Club having a naked party.
I don't feel so bad now.
posted by jonmc at 10:16 AM on June 19, 2003
I don't feel so bad now.
posted by jonmc at 10:16 AM on June 19, 2003
Ha ha
posted by pjgulliver at 10:24 AM on June 19, 2003
posted by pjgulliver at 10:24 AM on June 19, 2003
Re: Republican backlash mode: on!
U.S. Rep. Mark Foley is a COG. You read his statements from the article above and get a really good idea just how paranoid he is. Here's a couple of the good ones:
"It's beyond the pale that this is a normal way to bring up a 14-year-old child."
Foley suggested the camps force kids to fixate on nudity during their impressionable, formative years.
Foley said the camp, sponsored by the American Association for Nude Recreation, appears to exploit children to make money.
Foley's got it all wrong. Being in an environment where everyone is naked would have the opposite effect, especially for kids in their impressionable, formative years. They'd learn that nudity is not the big deal that Foley and his ilk make it.
The only interesting bit from the entire article was that the camp had about 25 kids attend. So if the AANR is looking to exploit kids (who are already nudists BTW) then they're doing a pretty crappy job of it. I mean, come on - this has to be done on a bit bigger scale to make those exploitation charges stick. And, if exploiting kids to make money is wrong then why isn't Foley going after the real baddies in their arena like Hasbro and Coke and McDonalds?
Is that hypocrisy I smell?
posted by DragonBoy at 11:09 AM on June 19, 2003
U.S. Rep. Mark Foley is a COG. You read his statements from the article above and get a really good idea just how paranoid he is. Here's a couple of the good ones:
"It's beyond the pale that this is a normal way to bring up a 14-year-old child."
Foley suggested the camps force kids to fixate on nudity during their impressionable, formative years.
Foley said the camp, sponsored by the American Association for Nude Recreation, appears to exploit children to make money.
Foley's got it all wrong. Being in an environment where everyone is naked would have the opposite effect, especially for kids in their impressionable, formative years. They'd learn that nudity is not the big deal that Foley and his ilk make it.
The only interesting bit from the entire article was that the camp had about 25 kids attend. So if the AANR is looking to exploit kids (who are already nudists BTW) then they're doing a pretty crappy job of it. I mean, come on - this has to be done on a bit bigger scale to make those exploitation charges stick. And, if exploiting kids to make money is wrong then why isn't Foley going after the real baddies in their arena like Hasbro and Coke and McDonalds?
Is that hypocrisy I smell?
posted by DragonBoy at 11:09 AM on June 19, 2003
I'm with cedar here- I don't care if it's a nudist camp, or band camp, or just sleepaway camp, there is no way in hell I'm sending my kid to a camp where I can't show up unannounced to see what kinds of things go on in a normal day, or a camp where I can't speak to my kid in person if I need to. The actual likelihood of me calling camp to talk to my child? Nil, unless someone died, but people who want to close a door between and my child makes me wonder what they want to hide.
posted by headspace at 12:31 PM on June 19, 2003
posted by headspace at 12:31 PM on June 19, 2003
it may be archaic but there is no fucking way my children are going anywhere that I am not welcome. This has little to do with the fact it's a nudist camp, but more to do with restrictive policies that hinder my ability to assure myself of my childrens safety and happiness.
How exactly do you propose to do contact the kids directly? Whenever I went to camp, I spent most of the day running around from one activity to the next, and the cabins didn't have telephones. If my parents had wanted to talk to me they'd have had to call the camp administration just to find out where I was.
If you're not assured of your children's safety and happiness, don't send them to the camp in the first place.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:37 PM on June 19, 2003
How exactly do you propose to do contact the kids directly? Whenever I went to camp, I spent most of the day running around from one activity to the next, and the cabins didn't have telephones. If my parents had wanted to talk to me they'd have had to call the camp administration just to find out where I was.
If you're not assured of your children's safety and happiness, don't send them to the camp in the first place.
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:37 PM on June 19, 2003
Interestingly enough, this is not the only Mark Foley story that deals with sex--Don't ask, because Mark Foley won't tell.
posted by y2karl at 12:37 PM on June 19, 2003
posted by y2karl at 12:37 PM on June 19, 2003
It should be noted that as recently as the fifties in the US it was SOP that swimming pools at summer camps, in school, and in Y's were populated by nude children. It was not okay to wear suits at all.
Also it should be noted that these types of places are a function of what the kids want. Anyone forcing their child to go to one of these would no doubt get lots of flack from their kids about it.
I am essentially a nudist and have no problem being nude in any situation. My daughter on the other hand has not been raised to be either a prude about it or to be a nudist herself. She would not feel comfortable going to a place like this and would not be happy on being forced to go. On the other hand if I took her to a nudist colony she would be fine with it.
And isn't this the Foley who is gay, or not gay, or gay with a live in boyfriend of many years, or not gay, or not willing to discuss it or something? Hhhhhmnmmmm
posted by filchyboy at 1:11 PM on June 19, 2003
Also it should be noted that these types of places are a function of what the kids want. Anyone forcing their child to go to one of these would no doubt get lots of flack from their kids about it.
I am essentially a nudist and have no problem being nude in any situation. My daughter on the other hand has not been raised to be either a prude about it or to be a nudist herself. She would not feel comfortable going to a place like this and would not be happy on being forced to go. On the other hand if I took her to a nudist colony she would be fine with it.
And isn't this the Foley who is gay, or not gay, or gay with a live in boyfriend of many years, or not gay, or not willing to discuss it or something? Hhhhhmnmmmm
posted by filchyboy at 1:11 PM on June 19, 2003
If my parents had wanted to talk to me they'd have had to call the camp administration just to find out where I was.
That's how, exactly. Call and wait until said kid is tracked down and brought to the administration office. I'll reiterate my position that there is exactly zero chance that I would be calling my child at camp unless something truly, truly dire had occurred, but if that were the case, I'm not about leave a message that grandpa died with a camp administrator to deliver in whatever fashion they deem appropriate.
posted by headspace at 1:22 PM on June 19, 2003
That's how, exactly. Call and wait until said kid is tracked down and brought to the administration office. I'll reiterate my position that there is exactly zero chance that I would be calling my child at camp unless something truly, truly dire had occurred, but if that were the case, I'm not about leave a message that grandpa died with a camp administrator to deliver in whatever fashion they deem appropriate.
posted by headspace at 1:22 PM on June 19, 2003
This goes back to cedar's comments. I ran a couple of Y summer camps for years, and the basic policy was "Visit Whenever". Because it's really bad policy to not allow the parents or guardians to visit on their time....mainly to allow them to feel that their child is safe and is in a productive environment....and to be able to witness it first hand. I would never let my child attend any camp unless they had this policy.
Parents never disturbed the groups, they usually watched from a distance and only went to the group when the activity was over.
posted by mkelley at 1:37 PM on June 19, 2003
Parents never disturbed the groups, they usually watched from a distance and only went to the group when the activity was over.
posted by mkelley at 1:37 PM on June 19, 2003
Totally agree with you, headspace (and mkelley). And I also share your skepticism of any camp -- au natural or otherwise -- that would not provide that assurance.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:14 PM on June 19, 2003
posted by pardonyou? at 2:14 PM on June 19, 2003
Yes, but these are the children of nudists, remember? Which means they've had to be around their naked parents for long periods of time... What more psychological damage could be done to them?
posted by y2karl at 2:59 PM on June 19, 2003
posted by y2karl at 2:59 PM on June 19, 2003
Before everyone gets too terribly excited, I'd like to share a story with you. The story begins with a humbling personal experience of mine-- no nudity involved, but, I was recently forced to use AOL. This SCANDALOUS LIVE NUDE TEEN CAMP story was on their splash page at the top of the headlines, along with an AOL poll. In case you were wondering how this camp sits with the NASCAR part of the country, they're 70% against it, 20% for it and the rest just go "auuieeeerrrghhh" and click on something with a bikini on it.
posted by kevspace at 6:35 PM on June 19, 2003
posted by kevspace at 6:35 PM on June 19, 2003
scottq wrote: I'm not saying that there aren't nudists who do it strictly for the "liberating" factor or whatever, but I'm saying that there are a lot more that are doing it for the titillation factor.
I, like most nudists, may be sexually stimulated by the physical features of a particular person, but that is because they are a part of that person. Seriously, if you've seen two breasts you've seen them all. Sexual stimulation strictly because of being in proximity to other nude people *may* be a phenomenon more commonly seen in people new to nude beaches/resorts, but it goes away very quickly (if it was there to begin).
Seriously. When's the last time you went skinny-dipping and didn't get a charge out of seeing other people naked?
Ummm...that would be last Saturday.
posted by wdpeck at 1:09 AM on June 20, 2003
I, like most nudists, may be sexually stimulated by the physical features of a particular person, but that is because they are a part of that person. Seriously, if you've seen two breasts you've seen them all. Sexual stimulation strictly because of being in proximity to other nude people *may* be a phenomenon more commonly seen in people new to nude beaches/resorts, but it goes away very quickly (if it was there to begin).
Seriously. When's the last time you went skinny-dipping and didn't get a charge out of seeing other people naked?
Ummm...that would be last Saturday.
posted by wdpeck at 1:09 AM on June 20, 2003
BTW, regarding the ongoing debate about parents' access to their kids at the camp -- I think many are reading in something that isn't there. The code of conduct (available in PDF at the bottom of the linked page) states that parents and guests are to be invited by the camp director. In other words, don't just wander around looking for your kid.
This is quite different from telling parents they may not visit the camp; it's asking that they have the director (or camp staff) show them in. This is the policy at my son's grade school (and is policy at many schools and day care centers), for example, so I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it is perceived (by some) as ominous in this context. It would be potentially disruptive to the kids and staff to have guests roaming around, not to mention that part of the reasoning is to make sure that *only* parents are in contact with their kids. Why is this being made out as a bad thing?
posted by wdpeck at 1:19 AM on June 20, 2003
This is quite different from telling parents they may not visit the camp; it's asking that they have the director (or camp staff) show them in. This is the policy at my son's grade school (and is policy at many schools and day care centers), for example, so I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why it is perceived (by some) as ominous in this context. It would be potentially disruptive to the kids and staff to have guests roaming around, not to mention that part of the reasoning is to make sure that *only* parents are in contact with their kids. Why is this being made out as a bad thing?
posted by wdpeck at 1:19 AM on June 20, 2003
Okay, this is an honest-to-God serious question for those of you raised nude: If nudity isn't supposed to be sexual, then what do you wank to? Penetration porn? Do you only get off to airbrushed supermodel nudity?
Okay, so what you appear to be saying is that nudity isn't necessarily sexual, depending on the situation. But what I also seem to be hearing is that sexualizing nudity is a fetish that automatically makes you something bad: a Creepy Outside Guy. Am I a creep just for liking nice, legal, softcore nakedness?
Somehow I picture most of these kids going back to the real world and still having just about every same hang up as the rest of the western world regarding their body image, since, while their breasts and penises might be acceptable in Magical Nudity Village, they're told by society that they're not the right size in Actual Romantic Situation.
posted by Skwirl at 7:49 AM on June 20, 2003
Okay, so what you appear to be saying is that nudity isn't necessarily sexual, depending on the situation. But what I also seem to be hearing is that sexualizing nudity is a fetish that automatically makes you something bad: a Creepy Outside Guy. Am I a creep just for liking nice, legal, softcore nakedness?
Somehow I picture most of these kids going back to the real world and still having just about every same hang up as the rest of the western world regarding their body image, since, while their breasts and penises might be acceptable in Magical Nudity Village, they're told by society that they're not the right size in Actual Romantic Situation.
posted by Skwirl at 7:49 AM on June 20, 2003
No, Skwirl -- vive la porn! -- we (nudists) just [generally] choose to separate nudity from sexualization. Liking porn doesn't make you a "COG," but bringing a "porn attitude" to a designated nudist venue does. This is actually quite the contentious argument among the nudist community: "real" nudists (meaning those of us who espouse this attitude) vs. the "swingers" (who use social nudism as a pretext for group sex and "mate swapping"). "Real" nudists argue that swinging is fine, for those who want to do such a thing -- just don't call it social nudism. "Swingers" maintain that they're just nudists with "open values" who take social nudism one step further and advocate open sex.
As for kids leaving "Magical Nudity Vilage" [I like that!] and going back to westernized body shame, that's not what the majority of them seem to do. As a nudist majoring in child development, I was able to do a lot of research into this (and got credit for it -- how's that for serendipity?). There were several well-formed studies that suggested nudist kids had better body image and self-esteem than their clothed peers. Then the "Mother of All Studies" came out not too long ago (Paul Okami's 18-year longitudinal study), showing a strong positive correlation -- strong enough that Okami himself was surprised by it -- between family/peer nudity and the above, but virtually no negative outcomes (other than the expected anomalies found in all groups of kids). To summarize, nudists kids like their bodies better, accept themselves as they are, and are less apt to judge the bodies of others against the western "standard" of "perfection." [But don't take my word for it -- here's a bibliography I've assembled over the last 15 or so years, and Okami's study is cited there.]
posted by wdpeck at 10:50 AM on June 20, 2003
As for kids leaving "Magical Nudity Vilage" [I like that!] and going back to westernized body shame, that's not what the majority of them seem to do. As a nudist majoring in child development, I was able to do a lot of research into this (and got credit for it -- how's that for serendipity?). There were several well-formed studies that suggested nudist kids had better body image and self-esteem than their clothed peers. Then the "Mother of All Studies" came out not too long ago (Paul Okami's 18-year longitudinal study), showing a strong positive correlation -- strong enough that Okami himself was surprised by it -- between family/peer nudity and the above, but virtually no negative outcomes (other than the expected anomalies found in all groups of kids). To summarize, nudists kids like their bodies better, accept themselves as they are, and are less apt to judge the bodies of others against the western "standard" of "perfection." [But don't take my word for it -- here's a bibliography I've assembled over the last 15 or so years, and Okami's study is cited there.]
posted by wdpeck at 10:50 AM on June 20, 2003
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posted by Space Coyote at 10:06 PM on June 18, 2003