camp american
June 25, 2003 7:40 AM Subscribe
It's Summer Camp Time!
Looking at summer camps to send yourbrats beloved children to for a week personal sanity at home? Look no further! Here it is!
Students will discover the deception of evolution, the importance of purity and morals in a free society, and the pagan connection to the radical environmental movement. Your teen will learn the importance of prayer and action. Most importantly, students will learn that in order to restore America, we must return America to Christ.
Now get out of here and go sign your little tykes up today! It's the patriotic and Christian thing to do. And don't forget the camp needs volunteers.
Looking at summer camps to send your
Students will discover the deception of evolution, the importance of purity and morals in a free society, and the pagan connection to the radical environmental movement. Your teen will learn the importance of prayer and action. Most importantly, students will learn that in order to restore America, we must return America to Christ.
Now get out of here and go sign your little tykes up today! It's the patriotic and Christian thing to do. And don't forget the camp needs volunteers.
Sounds somewhat different than my Christian camp experience. I went to an Episcopalian church camp, where I learned how to make salt dough and take off my bra without taking off my shirt. I also got to play God in the big play, since I had a white bathrobe. Maybe that's why I turned heathen.
posted by JoanArkham at 8:01 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by JoanArkham at 8:01 AM on June 25, 2003
Whoa. The Activities Page includes "gun events", a truth-in-advertising animation of a flying mosquito, and an apparently homicidal camp cook clutching a knife.
Also, excuse my ignorance, but what does the American flag with a circle of stars mean? Is this pre-civil war, or something?
posted by jokeefe at 8:04 AM on June 25, 2003
Also, excuse my ignorance, but what does the American flag with a circle of stars mean? Is this pre-civil war, or something?
posted by jokeefe at 8:04 AM on June 25, 2003
Seems like the antithesis of Camp Quest, "the first secular humanist camp for children in the United States," where kids get "ten days of fun, frolic, and freethought." [Via The Brights]
posted by The Michael The at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by The Michael The at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2003
tell me when you learn how to take off your bra without me taking you out to dinner. (j/k)
I was interviewing an intern yesterday for a network technician type position. He told me that he went to a computer camp for the last two years and was going on to be a counselor this year. I then made fun of him for the next 10 minutes. I kept trying to make references to Meatballs but he apparently never saw the movie.
Speaking of which, if you had to make a choice in life to never be able to see the movie Meatballs or never have been able to eat meatballs, which would you choose?
posted by LouieLoco at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2003
I was interviewing an intern yesterday for a network technician type position. He told me that he went to a computer camp for the last two years and was going on to be a counselor this year. I then made fun of him for the next 10 minutes. I kept trying to make references to Meatballs but he apparently never saw the movie.
Speaking of which, if you had to make a choice in life to never be able to see the movie Meatballs or never have been able to eat meatballs, which would you choose?
posted by LouieLoco at 8:09 AM on June 25, 2003
I (disclaimer: agnostic) went to a Christian-themed summer camp when I was young, and even worked at it for a week one summer. The only really weird aspect was "club", an evening pow-wow at which everyone in the camp sang worship songs (some original, some taken from pop music with the lyrics reworked) and laughed at Biblically-themed skits. Otherwise, it was pretty ho-hum biking, rafting, canoeing, rock-climbing, etc, with occasional lessons on how Christ is our metaphorical safety-harness. Summer camps are good. And if your family is religious, send your kids to a camp that they'll feel comfortable in.
posted by gsteff at 8:11 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by gsteff at 8:11 AM on June 25, 2003
Huh. I have to say I wish that some of my students could write this well, though. Someone's taught them how to construct an argument and how to write in clear sentences. Sigh.
Of course the content isn't for me, but I find it interesting that the essay winner for 10-12 year olds holds up "Ms. Rosa Parks" as a champion of iindividual rights.
posted by jokeefe at 8:13 AM on June 25, 2003
Of course the content isn't for me, but I find it interesting that the essay winner for 10-12 year olds holds up "Ms. Rosa Parks" as a champion of iindividual rights.
posted by jokeefe at 8:13 AM on June 25, 2003
What is that you said, nofundy? There are right wing religious fanatics out there? And they (gasp) like to meet up with others of their kind? Heavens to betsy!
Really, what fucking purpose does this post serve except to say, "Wow these people are nuts? We're not like them, arent we terriffic?" Har-Har, let's point and laugh.
It's not like being to the left of these people is difficult. I think even O'Reilley and Limbaugh manage it.
posted by jonmc at 8:18 AM on June 25, 2003
Really, what fucking purpose does this post serve except to say, "Wow these people are nuts? We're not like them, arent we terriffic?" Har-Har, let's point and laugh.
It's not like being to the left of these people is difficult. I think even O'Reilley and Limbaugh manage it.
posted by jonmc at 8:18 AM on June 25, 2003
Really, what fucking purpose does this post serve
Well, you take your pick:
1) I found something interesting on the web I wanted to share.
2) I just wanted to piss you off so you could hurl invectives at me for posting it.
Thank you sooo much for your contribution to this thread jonmc. Was there a purpose to your post too?
posted by nofundy at 8:24 AM on June 25, 2003
Well, you take your pick:
1) I found something interesting on the web I wanted to share.
2) I just wanted to piss you off so you could hurl invectives at me for posting it.
Thank you sooo much for your contribution to this thread jonmc. Was there a purpose to your post too?
posted by nofundy at 8:24 AM on June 25, 2003
jonmc, I first went to this site fully prepared to laugh at the silly right wing fanatics, but I have spent the last 20 minutes or so browsing, and I have learned something. I've learned about how comforting it must be to have a worldview which explains everything, a worldview that gives its adherents something to live up to which they feel is right and noble. It has humanized these folks for me. And that's not a bad thing, I believe.
It may have been the picture of the camp director in drag that helped. Or perhaps the fact that I'm running on about four hours of sleep.
posted by jokeefe at 8:26 AM on June 25, 2003
It may have been the picture of the camp director in drag that helped. Or perhaps the fact that I'm running on about four hours of sleep.
posted by jokeefe at 8:26 AM on June 25, 2003
What I learned at church camp:
1. Secular music is a term used by Christians to refer to anything worth listening too.
2. A small Gideon Bible and a pack of camels are indistinguishable in the back pocket of shorts.
3. Behind the church is the best place to make out.
4. Christian camps are usually staffed by counselors with power issues.
5. How to clean, assemble, load and fire a rifle.
6. Never to go back.
Personally I'd rather send my kids to Nudist camp.
posted by DragonBoy at 8:28 AM on June 25, 2003
1. Secular music is a term used by Christians to refer to anything worth listening too.
2. A small Gideon Bible and a pack of camels are indistinguishable in the back pocket of shorts.
3. Behind the church is the best place to make out.
4. Christian camps are usually staffed by counselors with power issues.
5. How to clean, assemble, load and fire a rifle.
6. Never to go back.
Personally I'd rather send my kids to Nudist camp.
posted by DragonBoy at 8:28 AM on June 25, 2003
The Michael The,
I didn't recognize the name at all but I ran into some of those camp-quest campers last year while hiking. The only reason it really stuck out in my mind was because of their t-shirts with the infinity symbol on them.
posted by substrate at 8:34 AM on June 25, 2003
I didn't recognize the name at all but I ran into some of those camp-quest campers last year while hiking. The only reason it really stuck out in my mind was because of their t-shirts with the infinity symbol on them.
posted by substrate at 8:34 AM on June 25, 2003
Methinks the first lesson on "the proper role and principles of good government, and history, civics and government from a Christian perspective" will not be the separation of church and state.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:36 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 8:36 AM on June 25, 2003
Thank you sooo much for your contribution to this thread jonmc. Was there a purpose to your post too?
Yes..to let you know that we get it. You don't much care for religion or conservative viewpoints. Good for you. You don't have to scour the web for obscure lunatics to pummel the dead horse with.
Now can we skip the next track or is that the only song on your album?
posted by jonmc at 8:38 AM on June 25, 2003
Yes..to let you know that we get it. You don't much care for religion or conservative viewpoints. Good for you. You don't have to scour the web for obscure lunatics to pummel the dead horse with.
Now can we skip the next track or is that the only song on your album?
posted by jonmc at 8:38 AM on June 25, 2003
I went to a Bible Camp in Washington called SAMBICA (Sammamish Bible Camp) when I was in seventh grade. It was the first time a girl ever touched my penis. Then I saw the face of God.
posted by vito90 at 8:43 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by vito90 at 8:43 AM on June 25, 2003
Interesting. I went to a bible camp in North Florida called Camp Weed where I smoke my first joint. I then saw god and touched somebody's penis!
I think we've just found out why Christianity is so appealing!
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:50 AM on June 25, 2003
I think we've just found out why Christianity is so appealing!
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:50 AM on June 25, 2003
Also, excuse my ignorance, but what does the American flag with a circle of stars mean? Is this pre-civil war, or something?
Jokeefe, you'll need to be coming with us, now. Pack your bags for North Carolina, and everything will become clear.
posted by Danf at 8:53 AM on June 25, 2003
Jokeefe, you'll need to be coming with us, now. Pack your bags for North Carolina, and everything will become clear.
posted by Danf at 8:53 AM on June 25, 2003
Why, everybody knows Jesus is American.
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:59 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:59 AM on June 25, 2003
Hmm. Camp American for bible-thumpers, Camp Quest for secular humanists.
This calls for a cutthroat raft race!
posted by furiousthought at 9:08 AM on June 25, 2003
This calls for a cutthroat raft race!
posted by furiousthought at 9:08 AM on June 25, 2003
I can't believe that Uncle Sam would just jam his fist right through the flag. Isn't there a law against that sort of thing?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:11 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:11 AM on June 25, 2003
Why, everybody knows Jesus is American.
We've got the american Jesus
see him on the interstate
we've got the american Jesus
he helped build the president's estate.
posted by Darke at 9:16 AM on June 25, 2003
We've got the american Jesus
see him on the interstate
we've got the american Jesus
he helped build the president's estate.
posted by Darke at 9:16 AM on June 25, 2003
Interesting links on their homepage. THOMAS (yay, THOMAS), then homeschooling, then hunting stuff, then nutritional supplements (wonder if they sell colloidal silver). Not sure what the connection is.
posted by MrMoonPie at 9:23 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by MrMoonPie at 9:23 AM on June 25, 2003
I honestly thought this was a joke on the main page - I even looked up the names of the associated speakers on google to check that they were real people (it seemed like such an obvious jab to write a bio of a super-christian and mention that he has ten children...). Of course, they were, which you all seemed to catch right away.
Anyway, as jokeefe said, after reading through the essays they did seem to be honestly expressing their beliefs. What does it mean that they accept people of all religions though? I guess just that they're willing to try to convert your child?
camp quest looks awesome.
posted by mdn at 9:23 AM on June 25, 2003
Anyway, as jokeefe said, after reading through the essays they did seem to be honestly expressing their beliefs. What does it mean that they accept people of all religions though? I guess just that they're willing to try to convert your child?
camp quest looks awesome.
posted by mdn at 9:23 AM on June 25, 2003
internal, you misspelled "ME TOO!!"
posted by Space Coyote at 9:37 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by Space Coyote at 9:37 AM on June 25, 2003
Meanwhile, a Muslim organization trying to set up a summer youth camp (open to all faiths, mind you) is being put through the ringer, presumably by people like the above who are seeking to "return" America to Christ.
posted by laz-e-boy at 9:42 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by laz-e-boy at 9:42 AM on June 25, 2003
It's fun to point and laugh at these people. It's important to do it as often as possible.
posted by ghastlyfop at 9:54 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by ghastlyfop at 9:54 AM on June 25, 2003
Nice post nofundy. Don't fret over jonmc's bad day.
I went to church camp too, to chase girls and get laid. I think we talked about Jesus too . . .
posted by tr33hggr at 9:55 AM on June 25, 2003
I went to church camp too, to chase girls and get laid. I think we talked about Jesus too . . .
posted by tr33hggr at 9:55 AM on June 25, 2003
Yeah, I have to go with jonmc on this as far as the purpose of the post goes, though the thread seems to have evolved in a surprisingly sympathetic direction. Come on, people, you're not allowed to see the good in Christians here! This is MetaFilter!
Oh, and jokeefe, the flag with a circle of stars is an early post-Revolution version of the Stars and Stripes, popularly known as the Betsy Ross flag although the venerable Betsy had no more to do with it than Abner Doubleday had to do with baseball.
posted by languagehat at 9:55 AM on June 25, 2003
Oh, and jokeefe, the flag with a circle of stars is an early post-Revolution version of the Stars and Stripes, popularly known as the Betsy Ross flag although the venerable Betsy had no more to do with it than Abner Doubleday had to do with baseball.
posted by languagehat at 9:55 AM on June 25, 2003
When thru hiking the A.T. some years ago, I met a Christian summer camp at a shelter late one afternoon. It was unexpectly cold, and the horribly-prepared (read as: wearing jeans and t-shirts) kids and their adult counselors were chilled to the bone and unable to start a fire. I helped them out, but not until I got them to admit to me that Jesus was apparently either unwilling or unable to provide for them.
Does this mean I'm going to hell?
posted by waldo at 10:30 AM on June 25, 2003
Does this mean I'm going to hell?
posted by waldo at 10:30 AM on June 25, 2003
waldo, that was cruel and mean-spirited-- and hilarious.
Of course, they could simply have pointed out that their god sent you...
posted by Cerebus at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2003
Of course, they could simply have pointed out that their god sent you...
posted by Cerebus at 10:36 AM on June 25, 2003
That would've involved a leap of logic, as opposed to faith.
Seriously, I wonder what would happen if other faiths set up similar camps with similar messages...?
posted by FormlessOne at 10:49 AM on June 25, 2003
Seriously, I wonder what would happen if other faiths set up similar camps with similar messages...?
posted by FormlessOne at 10:49 AM on June 25, 2003
A Christian, a Scientologist, a Republican and nofundy walk into a bar together...the bartender sez:
posted by foot at 10:52 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by foot at 10:52 AM on June 25, 2003
Hey, I pointed and laughed at the Nudist Camp post too... maybe not for the same reasons...
posted by wendell at 10:52 AM on June 25, 2003
posted by wendell at 10:52 AM on June 25, 2003
> Does this mean I'm going to hell?
Not at all, heh. Jesus sent you to help them, and you went. Attaboy.
> not until I got them to admit to me that Jesus was
> apparently either unwilling or unable to provide for them.
No doubt they had a good chuckle over that after you left. Why do them heathens rage?
posted by jfuller at 11:03 AM on June 25, 2003
Not at all, heh. Jesus sent you to help them, and you went. Attaboy.
> not until I got them to admit to me that Jesus was
> apparently either unwilling or unable to provide for them.
No doubt they had a good chuckle over that after you left. Why do them heathens rage?
posted by jfuller at 11:03 AM on June 25, 2003
The links page has some insight into the organization.
They're kind enough to direct traffic to Minutemen United, a group which likes to harass gay folks. But remember, Camp American doesn't deserve anyone's ire or ridicule.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:08 AM on June 25, 2003
They're kind enough to direct traffic to Minutemen United, a group which likes to harass gay folks. But remember, Camp American doesn't deserve anyone's ire or ridicule.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:08 AM on June 25, 2003
Constitution and the founding fathers original intent, and the Christian principles upon which our founders built this nation.
Uh, I think these guys may want to check their history books a little more closely. Last time I checked, our country was founded by Deists upon the principles of 18th c. political theorists. The principles upon which the Soviet Union was built adhere far more closely to the Christian societal and economic ethic.
The ad for Bushnell rifle scopes at the bottom of the main page is a bit . . . disconcerting, isn't it?
posted by vraxoin at 11:57 AM on June 25, 2003
Uh, I think these guys may want to check their history books a little more closely. Last time I checked, our country was founded by Deists upon the principles of 18th c. political theorists. The principles upon which the Soviet Union was built adhere far more closely to the Christian societal and economic ethic.
The ad for Bushnell rifle scopes at the bottom of the main page is a bit . . . disconcerting, isn't it?
posted by vraxoin at 11:57 AM on June 25, 2003
The ad for Bushnell rifle scopes...
actually it's a rangefinder[/nitpick]
posted by goddam at 12:15 PM on June 25, 2003
actually it's a rangefinder[/nitpick]
posted by goddam at 12:15 PM on June 25, 2003
That's me -- a tool of Jesus. I get that all the time. People are all like, "Waldo, man, you're just working for the Lord, aren't you?"
Now I've got a story about a man in a flooding town, if you'd like...
posted by waldo at 12:40 PM on June 25, 2003
Now I've got a story about a man in a flooding town, if you'd like...
posted by waldo at 12:40 PM on June 25, 2003
actually it's a rangefinder[/nitpick]
My bad--I neither kill things for fun nor do I golf, so I wasn't aware that they were different things.
posted by vraxoin at 1:10 PM on June 25, 2003
My bad--I neither kill things for fun nor do I golf, so I wasn't aware that they were different things.
posted by vraxoin at 1:10 PM on June 25, 2003
"and the pagan connection to the radical environmental movement."
When I saw that I was breifly confused, thinking it would be a pagan summer camp.
posted by nyxxxx at 1:42 PM on June 25, 2003
When I saw that I was breifly confused, thinking it would be a pagan summer camp.
posted by nyxxxx at 1:42 PM on June 25, 2003
I helped them out, but not until I got them to admit to me that Jesus was apparently either unwilling or unable to provide for them.
I wonder if the situation were reversed if they would have browbeaten something out of you before helping you.
posted by timeistight at 1:58 PM on June 25, 2003
I wonder if the situation were reversed if they would have browbeaten something out of you before helping you.
posted by timeistight at 1:58 PM on June 25, 2003
I wonder if the situation were reversed if they would have browbeaten something out of you before helping you.
When an achiest gets lost on the A.T. God sends a bear to eat him, not a believer to help. It's in Deuteronomy somewheres.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:03 PM on June 25, 2003
When an achiest gets lost on the A.T. God sends a bear to eat him, not a believer to help. It's in Deuteronomy somewheres.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:03 PM on June 25, 2003
Achiest? Achiest??? Stupid spellcheck...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:13 PM on June 25, 2003
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:13 PM on June 25, 2003
Uh, I think these guys may want to check their history books a little more closely. Last time I checked, our country was founded by Deists upon the principles of 18th c. political theorists.
vraxoin: I've addressed this issue extensively before. First, on the alleged pervasive deism of the founding father's: Based on the signed statements of faith commonly required for church membership, at the constitutional convention it is estimated that 28 delegates were Episcopalians, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, and 3 were deist. One religious preference (James McClung) is unknown to historians. For some reason, everybody always thinks that Franklin, Jefferson, Paine and maybe three others founded the country all by themselves.
Next, on the broader role of deism in the founding of America, let's hear from Perry Miller, Professor of History at Harvard University, and - though it shouldn't matter - an atheist:
Actually, European deism was an exotic plant in America, which never struck roots in the soil. "Rationalism" was never so widespread as liberal historians, or those fascinated by Jefferson, have imagined. The basic fact is that the Revolution had been preached to the masses as a religious revival, and had the astounding fortune to succeed.
-- Perry Miller, Nature's Nation, p. 110
Now, on the role of religion in the intellectual founding of the revolution, my usual diatribes can be found here and here.
vraxoin: The principles upon which the Soviet Union was built adhere far more closely to the Christian societal and economic ethic.
Aside from that whole "pervasive and state-mandated atheism", I suppose that you're right.
posted by gd779 at 2:36 PM on June 25, 2003
vraxoin: I've addressed this issue extensively before. First, on the alleged pervasive deism of the founding father's: Based on the signed statements of faith commonly required for church membership, at the constitutional convention it is estimated that 28 delegates were Episcopalians, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, and 3 were deist. One religious preference (James McClung) is unknown to historians. For some reason, everybody always thinks that Franklin, Jefferson, Paine and maybe three others founded the country all by themselves.
Next, on the broader role of deism in the founding of America, let's hear from Perry Miller, Professor of History at Harvard University, and - though it shouldn't matter - an atheist:
Actually, European deism was an exotic plant in America, which never struck roots in the soil. "Rationalism" was never so widespread as liberal historians, or those fascinated by Jefferson, have imagined. The basic fact is that the Revolution had been preached to the masses as a religious revival, and had the astounding fortune to succeed.
-- Perry Miller, Nature's Nation, p. 110
Now, on the role of religion in the intellectual founding of the revolution, my usual diatribes can be found here and here.
vraxoin: The principles upon which the Soviet Union was built adhere far more closely to the Christian societal and economic ethic.
Aside from that whole "pervasive and state-mandated atheism", I suppose that you're right.
posted by gd779 at 2:36 PM on June 25, 2003
I am the achiest athiest.
posted by timeistight at 2:47 PM on June 25, 2003
posted by timeistight at 2:47 PM on June 25, 2003
gd779, first of all, notice none of them were evangelicals or fundamentalists and none of them seemed to have a problem sharing the governing body with people who didn't believe in jesus.
Second, regardless of what the founding fathers believed, there is no mention of any christian concepts in the declaration or the constitution. I think there are only three references to god, and they're especially vague and could easily be considered metaphorical (creator, providence - I forget right now what the third one is).
Aside from that whole "pervasive and state-mandated atheism"
I think it's a question of "state-mandated" anything - if you're going to claim this is a christian nation, you're going directly against our constitutional rights of religious freedom. Non-christians in a christian nation would not truly be equals.
posted by mdn at 3:44 PM on June 25, 2003
Second, regardless of what the founding fathers believed, there is no mention of any christian concepts in the declaration or the constitution. I think there are only three references to god, and they're especially vague and could easily be considered metaphorical (creator, providence - I forget right now what the third one is).
Aside from that whole "pervasive and state-mandated atheism"
I think it's a question of "state-mandated" anything - if you're going to claim this is a christian nation, you're going directly against our constitutional rights of religious freedom. Non-christians in a christian nation would not truly be equals.
posted by mdn at 3:44 PM on June 25, 2003
"INDIANA CAMP WAS A RAGING SUCCESS!"
Rage beign the operative word here.
posted by sharksandwich at 3:53 PM on June 25, 2003
Rage beign the operative word here.
posted by sharksandwich at 3:53 PM on June 25, 2003
gd779, first of all, notice none of them were evangelicals or fundamentalists
I think maybe you misunderstand my point. Because, without commenting on whether you're right or wrong, I'm not sure why you would say this. I never argued that fundamentalist Christians should remake America into a fundamentalist theocracy. Probably because I don't think they should.
none of them seemed to have a problem sharing the governing body with people who didn't believe in jesus.
Oh, but they would have had a major problem with a non-Christian holding office. They just didn't allow federal law to prohibit it. (The states were something of another matter).
I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember a letter written by John Adams to Abigail Adams, in which is recounts that his political opponent called him an atheist. He regarded this as slander, the sort of thing you'd say to kill someone's chances of election.
I think there are only three references to god, and they're especially vague and could easily be considered metaphorical
My response to this is lengthy, and I think I'd better just refer you to the last two links in my last post.
you're going to claim this is a christian nation, you're going directly against our constitutional rights of religious freedom. Non-christians in a christian nation would not truly be equals.
That depends entirely on what you mean by "Christian nation", mdn. All I assert, all I've ever asserted, is that America was in it's founding explicitly Christian - the majority of the leaders were Christian, they sold the revolution to the people as a Christian revolution, and then they created a form of government based largely on Christian theology. That true freedom of religion came out of such a explicitly religious structure is pretty unexpected, but very, very good.
In other words, you can have a nation that where a substantial majority of citizens are Christian, and enjoy the freedom to publicly express their religious views, but that also protects non-Christians. There's no contradiction there.
posted by gd779 at 7:20 PM on June 25, 2003
I think maybe you misunderstand my point. Because, without commenting on whether you're right or wrong, I'm not sure why you would say this. I never argued that fundamentalist Christians should remake America into a fundamentalist theocracy. Probably because I don't think they should.
none of them seemed to have a problem sharing the governing body with people who didn't believe in jesus.
Oh, but they would have had a major problem with a non-Christian holding office. They just didn't allow federal law to prohibit it. (The states were something of another matter).
I can't find the reference, but I seem to remember a letter written by John Adams to Abigail Adams, in which is recounts that his political opponent called him an atheist. He regarded this as slander, the sort of thing you'd say to kill someone's chances of election.
I think there are only three references to god, and they're especially vague and could easily be considered metaphorical
My response to this is lengthy, and I think I'd better just refer you to the last two links in my last post.
you're going to claim this is a christian nation, you're going directly against our constitutional rights of religious freedom. Non-christians in a christian nation would not truly be equals.
That depends entirely on what you mean by "Christian nation", mdn. All I assert, all I've ever asserted, is that America was in it's founding explicitly Christian - the majority of the leaders were Christian, they sold the revolution to the people as a Christian revolution, and then they created a form of government based largely on Christian theology. That true freedom of religion came out of such a explicitly religious structure is pretty unexpected, but very, very good.
In other words, you can have a nation that where a substantial majority of citizens are Christian, and enjoy the freedom to publicly express their religious views, but that also protects non-Christians. There's no contradiction there.
posted by gd779 at 7:20 PM on June 25, 2003
I think it's a question of "state-mandated" anything
I agree, but historically speaking, you're missing the point. Even the most Freethinking Presidents did things that would seem egregious to us today. Jefferson, for example, from whom the phrase "Wall of seperation between church and state" comes, did not believe that there should be no interaction between church and state. On three occasions, President Jefferson signed into law federal land grants specifically to promote proselytizing among native American Indians. In 1803, Jefferson proposed to the US Senate (and got them to ratify) a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians in which the federal government was to "give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest" and "further give the sum of three dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of the church".
It's also instructive to note that Jefferson opposed nationally-sponsored days of prayer as President, but supported them as governor of Virginia.
posted by gd779 at 7:32 PM on June 25, 2003
I agree, but historically speaking, you're missing the point. Even the most Freethinking Presidents did things that would seem egregious to us today. Jefferson, for example, from whom the phrase "Wall of seperation between church and state" comes, did not believe that there should be no interaction between church and state. On three occasions, President Jefferson signed into law federal land grants specifically to promote proselytizing among native American Indians. In 1803, Jefferson proposed to the US Senate (and got them to ratify) a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians in which the federal government was to "give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest" and "further give the sum of three dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of the church".
It's also instructive to note that Jefferson opposed nationally-sponsored days of prayer as President, but supported them as governor of Virginia.
posted by gd779 at 7:32 PM on June 25, 2003
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Ah yes, the "pagan environmental conspiracy" - it's huge, it's everywhere, but quietly so.......all the biologists, climatologists, ecologists - anyone in the Earth Sciences, even a lot of the petroleum geologists, they're all part of the (satanic) conspiracy!! It's all about tricking Americans into believing that resources aren't limitless.
posted by troutfishing at 8:00 AM on June 25, 2003