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Mumbai Blasts.
August 28, 2003 9:43 AM   Subscribe

The Bombay(Mumbai) blasts. Why detonate two car-bombs in Bombay? Destabilize the economy creating a climate for terror. Terror attacks have become commonplace in parts of India. The US condemned the Bombay attack- Powell called Indian officials. But, it seems like India should do more before if it wants broader US support. As the WSJ editorial page put it- "We think India could have helped build even closer U.S. ties had it decided to send troops to Iraq. The U.S. has driven a wedge into the center of Muslim terrorism with its occupation of Iraq, and it is looking to see who its friends really are." What is the lesson from all of this to the Indian government? What would you do if you were running India?
posted by SandeepKrishnamurthy (60 comments total)

 
delete "before" in sentence 5.
posted by SandeepKrishnamurthy at 9:45 AM on August 28, 2003


What would you do if you were running India?
Not worry about newbies to the game, and let 'em learn the rules. Then form alliances and send in tactical strike forces to take out key enemy units and facilities. Oh also challenge them (the enemy) to capture the flag tournaments.
posted by riffola at 9:52 AM on August 28, 2003


But, that will mean entry into Pakistan's territory!
posted by SandeepKrishnamurthy at 9:55 AM on August 28, 2003


Honestly, I think the US needs to stop and take a breath and realise that they are relatively new to this, and the rest of the world has been battling it for ages. So once it realises that, things would be a lot easier for everyone. I see a lot of potential for good healthy relations then.
posted by riffola at 9:55 AM on August 28, 2003


For the sake of political expediency and military necessity, the US embraced India's longtime enemy Pakistan, which is one of the sources of terrorist attacks in India. So if I were running India I would concentrate on trying to come to an amicable non-nuclear solution to my problems with Pakistan, and let the US clean up its own mess.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:57 AM on August 28, 2003


Why ask India?
posted by goethean at 9:58 AM on August 28, 2003


The U.S. has driven a wedge into the center of Muslim terrorism with its occupation of Iraq, and it is looking to see who its friends really are

Well, there is the British goverment, the Spanish goverment, the Austalian government and a few other governments. Perhaps the US government should start (re) building relationships.

on preview: what goethean said
posted by ginz at 10:06 AM on August 28, 2003


Whether in India, Jerusalem, Bali or New York City, it's essential to 1) fully understand the muslim mindset with no prejudices and absolutely no illusions, 2)learn from history about the shortcomings in West/Islam past contacts, 3)recognize Western values as the main source of material riches, art and technical innovations ever and 4) do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, condone or attempt to rationalize terrorism.
posted by 111 at 10:11 AM on August 28, 2003


...unless it's in Nicaragua.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 10:21 AM on August 28, 2003


What would you do if you were running India?

I would order a lamb frankie and a side of aloo gobi. It's delicious, but normally I don't have two dishes since all the rare exotic spices are expensive. But what the hell, I can afford it - I'm running the damn place. Also, for desert, galub jamun (sp?). Delightful!
posted by jonson at 10:22 AM on August 28, 2003


3)recognize Western values as the main source of material riches, art and technical innovations ever

::raises eyebrow::

ever? Again, why do the Indians and Chinese hate the West? Ah yes...infinite arrogance.
posted by BlueTrain at 10:22 AM on August 28, 2003


You are either with us or against us. IOW: fuck you and your terror victims.

If you're not Spain, that is. Aznar has just sent in the first 1,000 troops, assuring a massively anti-war domestic public opinion that they are not going to do combat missions. After all, the war has already ended ...


fully understand the muslim mindset with no prejudices and *absolutely no illusions*

I thought you said no prejudices. Are you perhaps implying that no Muslim person is trustworthy?


posted by magullo at 10:25 AM on August 28, 2003


1) fully understand the muslim mindset with no prejudices and absolutely no illusions, 2)learn from history about the shortcomings in West/Islam past contacts, 3)recognize Western values as the main source of material riches, art and technical innovations ever and 4) do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, condone or attempt to rationalize terrorism.

1 and 2 are perfectly reasonable. 3 seems to fly in the face of the first two, coming out of nowhere saying "yeah, try to understand them but remember that we're better", and shows an ignorance of history. And 4 is just grandstanding.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:28 AM on August 28, 2003


riffola speak with forked tongue! and look, it seems to have stabbed dubyuh in the eye!
posted by quonsar at 10:34 AM on August 28, 2003


I thought you said no prejudices. Are you perhaps implying that no Muslim person is trustworthy?

No. I mean Islam, as a religion without a reform and full of stringent concepts (Jihad etc) still admits of certain acts which are unacceptable: fatwas, violent martyrdom (i.e. suicide bombers) and submission of women are not multicultural differences, they are backwards, irrational crimes that cannot be idealized. Trying to see muslims as peaceful lambs with a few radicals among them is an illusion. Try to be an ex-muslim in Sudan, Iran etc and see what happens.
posted by 111 at 10:39 AM on August 28, 2003


coming out of nowhere saying "yeah, try to understand them but remember that we're better", and shows an ignorance of history.

Please mention one single developed muslim country, ten great muslim artists and ten great muslim technological innovations in medicine in the last thousand years.

Or else do this: compare the countries with crosses in their flags with countries with the Crescent in their flags.

Or else do this: spend a month in the least developed european country (say Portugal) and a month in the most developed muslim country (say Turkey).
posted by 111 at 10:44 AM on August 28, 2003


"spend a month in the least developed european country (say Portugal)"

Paging MiguelCardoso...
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:53 AM on August 28, 2003




*does not feed the troll chauvinist*
posted by goethean at 10:55 AM on August 28, 2003


I think the fundamental flaw in your thinking, or perhaps intelligence, 111, can be summarized by your inclusion of "fatwa' in your list of backwards Muslim attitudes.

In fact, a fatwa is a religious ruling. That ruling could be anything from a call to stone all non-believers to a call to provide money for charity. It is up to man, not religion, to issue a fatwa, and many of the more controversial ones through the years have been totally in opposition to the spirit of the religion. In summary, the problem you have is not with the religion, but with its application. Failure to understand this is a huge personal flaw that you and many simple-minded people have.

It is perfectly acceptable to criticize Muslims, and Muslim countries for their inept and corrupt states and generally low standard of living. However, only someone who does not know the first thing about Islam as a religion could use it as a basis for attack. Only someone who has not, in fact, travelled or lived in any Muslim country could make the statements you've made.

Although I recognize that you will probably not 'debate' on a level that most people would choose to engage in, I ask you to explain the success of Muslims in America: doctors, engineers, musicians, lawyers, entrepeneurs, all devoted practicioners of the faith with deeply held beliefs and yet still forging ahead, innovating, making money, enriching humanity... if Islam were the problem, wouldn't these people all be blowing themselves up and hating freedom, rather than basking in it and thanking Allah every day for their fortune?
posted by cell divide at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2003


recognize Western values as the main source of material riches, art and technical innovations ever.

The Chinese might disagree
posted by jester69 at 11:04 AM on August 28, 2003


I wouldn't disagree that people in Muslim countries should put the religious elements in their governments in their place in the same way Europeans have done. Denying religious institutions political power seems to be more of a common thread among developed countries than "crosses on flags".
posted by Space Coyote at 11:43 AM on August 28, 2003


ten great muslim artists and ten great muslim technological innovations in medicine in the last thousand years.

he's joking, right?

your ignorance places you somewhere south of the mason-dixon.
posted by donkeyschlong at 11:44 AM on August 28, 2003


111 is saying God does not promote Non-Christian countries.
But be careful; whom are you to make judgement, where did man originate? You don't have to be a Christian to be blessed by God, ever hear blessed by association.

How do you know what you consider gifts, wealth or promotion, is not really a gift of deceptional wealth. Example you are poor, give you a 1M$ knowing you will not be able to handle it. You spend it all, having nothing still and on top of it, 1M$ in debt .
posted by thomcatspike at 11:50 AM on August 28, 2003


Hey, your troll was better than 111's, donkeyschlong. Nicely done. Way to strike a blow for tolerance.
posted by dhoyt at 11:51 AM on August 28, 2003


Homonoculus - thanks for the very interesting Asia Times article.

In the article, it mentioned a recent Pentagon paper that took a derogatory view of the Indian military. Does anyone have any more information on this?

As a side note on South Asian politics, there's been recent coverage of Pakistan being a major supplier of nuclear equipment and technology to Iran. Anyone care to speculate if something like this affects US-Pak relations or if it is overlooked due to the fact that Pakistan is a key US ally in the region?
posted by rks404 at 11:52 AM on August 28, 2003


Ever heard of the 'dark ages' 111?

The contribution of the backwards Islamic world to science.

There are even more examples that this article misses.

For art and artistry in the Islamic world, why don't you try and visit Turkey? (which I prefer to Portugal myself). Have a look at the architecture in the many mosques there and have a look at the Arabic Calligraphy. Maybe you won't be able to appreciate it, but hey, that comes with time.

If you fancy something to read, there is a massive collection of work by muslims - try some of the Sufi literature for a start, nice poems there. Rumi comes to mind.

If all the worlds 1 billion or so muslims followed a religion of hate and bile towards others, you'd be in a lot of trouble. As it is, the main flaws in 'Islamic' countries come because people place cultural norms above their own religion with all the lovely prejudices that follow from there. This is evident in some of the vitriol that comes out (politically motivated) or the mistreatment that one can see (women for example in places such as Saudi)

Tolerance for other religions is a part of the Qu'ran for example - take the treatment of the Christians and Jews when Jerusalem was captured and compare it to when the Crusades swept through there.

In truth, religion and state are very badly combined in muslim countries today - however, to blame the backwardness and lack of sophistication of some of these on the religion itself rather than looking at the comparitive political and historical conflicts that have occured there as opposed to somewhere like the US would just be silly.

In addition, the muslim world is not one monolithic entity - there are the different sections and subsections. In any bunch there will be a few bad apples, and they just spoil the image of the rest of us. The fact that the Islamic way of life is based on a seperate sense of principles to the majority of Western social norms means that there is a predisposition to feel fear towards it, so that makes the stereotyping and bigotry easier.

Chill bro.

NB: Jihad = personal struggle. Everyone does it.
posted by Mossy at 12:01 PM on August 28, 2003


"I think the fundamental flaw in your thinking, or perhaps intelligence, 111"

PEOPLE!!! PLEASE!!!! Stop feeding the trolls. Please???

Think. 111 is clearly a well informed person with a solid grasp of the issues. Why does he keep saying irrational things that push your buttons? Stop and think. His goal isn't to engage in a healthy debate. His goal is purely to pee on the discussion and make it all about his silliness.

Look, what is this: "3)recognize Western values as the main source of material riches, art and technical innovations ever "

Why did he include that? It has nothing to do with the thread, or even the rest of his comment. Why did he say it? Because he knows it will lure people like a moth to the flame. His victims won't be able to resist. They'll jump all over this absurd snippet and suddenly the thread is all about him.

Why give him what he wants when what he wants is to turn the thread to crap? Why? I am seriously asking why you people fall for this - Every. Single. Time. If you ignore things like this he will get bored and go away. If we stop being as entertaining for him he will find some other forum to ruin.

Please stop helping 111 masturbate all over MetaFilter.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:01 PM on August 28, 2003


Back on track for the thread, the lesson for the Indian government is that nothing is free in this world.

That and they should step up their propoganda to portray the Pakistanis as supporting terrorism.
posted by Mossy at 12:03 PM on August 28, 2003


216y^3 is right, of course, but I just couldn't resist using 111's reasoning to point to the fact that religion should be kept the fuck away from government.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:09 PM on August 28, 2003


Please stop helping 111 masturbate all over MetaFilter.

dancing between the sticky blobs is half the fun.
posted by quonsar at 12:09 PM on August 28, 2003


I wonder if 111 is a masochist, it seems to me that he likes to get himself into situations where he is likely to be spanked.

Your definition of 'developed' may differ from mine. Ignorance of a culture would not compel me to criticise it, however each to their own.
Spending time in any place can be greatly effected by the people you spend it with, as well as many subjective criteria. A countrys official religion may, or may not have anything to do with that countrys 'success'. Certainly, ignorance and arrogance are not the sole property of any religion in particular.
While it may be the case that Europe and it's colonies have enjoyed a period of technological superiority over the past few hundred years, I cannot attribute that to anything other than luck.
India also has a long and distinguished history of scientific endevour, particularly in the realm of astronomy.
Muslim 'father of surgery', whose instruments and techniques we still use today.
Muslim contemporary art.


On thread: er, what Mossy said.
posted by asok at 12:14 PM on August 28, 2003


What I really wanted to commit on, when this incident first happened, wondered is the US really to blame here.

What about the way General Pershing eradicated terrorism, if we are going argue, blame the US, not the one's terrorizing us.

somehow notice the world(not all) thinks the common American is a reflection of our lobbyist & advertisements. Think the world has trouble knowing whom we really are. There is a fine line regarding terrorism and the US's involvement. But the fine line seems to be crossed when the US sends troops all over the world to police. It's a military if you want police, change its name.

The U.S. has driven a wedge into the center of Muslim terrorism with its occupation of Iraq,
Sending missionaries seems would do that. Came to thought when thinking about the CS human shields, yet don't recall them witnessing too.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:16 PM on August 28, 2003


In fact, a fatwa is a religious ruling. That ruling could be anything from a call to stone all non-believers to a call to provide money for charity.

Try not to be disingenuous; everybody knows perfectly well that it's the "Salman Rushdie/Ibn Warraq must die" type of fatwa that we find unacceptable and barbaric.

It's also bafflingly stupid to separate religion, which exists in books, from people, who enforce it as values and make the best or worst out of it.

I ask you to explain the success of Muslims in America: doctors, engineers, musicians, lawyers, entrepeneurs, all devoted practicioners of the faith with deeply held beliefs and yet still forging ahead, innovating, making money, enriching humanity... if Islam were the problem, wouldn't these people all be blowing themselves up and hating freedom, rather than basking in it and thanking Allah every day for their fortune?

First of all, ask yourself: regarding migrants, why did they leave their islamic countries in the first place?
Now re the successful doctors and engineers (including females, which wouldn't be so easy in islamic countries), they live in a country where there's freedom of and from religion, and where values are really democratic; where meritocracy, the pursuit of pleasure and material gains are not forbidden; where people are essentially free. The muslims who leave in free countries succeeded despite the radical aspects of their religion.

Only someone who has not, in fact, travelled or lived in any Muslim country could make the statements you've made.

You're wrong. But I wouldn't want to live five seconds of my life as a citizen of a Muslim country.

dhoyt, where am I trolling? is there a shadow of a doubt that most terrorist attacks, including the ones in India, are caused by Muslims? You are (perhaps unwittingly) trolling, because you substitute me as a subject matter of the thread for the real issue, terrorism.

111 is saying God does not promote Non-Christian countries.

No I'm not. I'm saying Christian values are historically much more conducive to personal freedom (regardless of faith and gender), wealth and happiness. The worst aspects of fanaticism can be seen in these terrible crimes against innocent people in Bombai etc.
posted by 111 at 12:26 PM on August 28, 2003


*so hard not to respond to the troll*

notes the large number of immigrants that have come from "cross on flag" countries

Damnit.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:31 PM on August 28, 2003


quonsar - Just what we need. Another category: The troll fanboy.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:34 PM on August 28, 2003


In the article, it mentioned a recent Pentagon paper that took a derogatory view of the Indian military. Does anyone have any more information on this?

There's more here: India: The games the Pentagon plays

As a side note on South Asian politics, there's been recent coverage of Pakistan being a major supplier of nuclear equipment and technology to Iran. Anyone care to speculate if something like this affects US-Pak relations or if it is overlooked due to the fact that Pakistan is a key US ally in the region?

Sure. We've overlooked the help Pakistan gave North Korea in building their nuclear program (and now NK says it wants to conduct nuclear tests.) And according to this article, bin Laden is known to be holed up in northern Pakistan and the Pakistanis won't touch him (with our permission, it claims.) It seems that we're willing to overlook quite a bit when it comes to Pakistan.

Here's the WaPo article on Iran/Pakistan connection, btw.
posted by homunculus at 12:35 PM on August 28, 2003


p.s: most people above who mention Averroes or the invention of paper or whatever it is as examples of non-Western advancement are not only taking exceptions for a rule, they're virtually ignoring the last 1,000 years of history, when most inventions, discoveries and works of art as such appeared!

Think of your own living standards of freedom, personal hygiene and information when you assess different cultures. Be true to yourself in order to be true to others. Don't come across as a patronizing hypocrite for the sake of political correctness.
posted by 111 at 12:37 PM on August 28, 2003


The problem is probably a matter of theocracy or a strong religious component to government than Islam specifically. Back when more countries in Europe were explicitly Christian we had wonderful things like the Inquisition, the crusades, the thirty years war, the hundred years war, the Salem witch trials, the supression of scientific knowledge that conflicted with church doctrine, and pointless brouhahas about monuments to mythological law givers in our state courthouses. When religion acts through government it appears that people are likely to die. Give me an entirely secular state or give me the expectation of imminent death.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:40 PM on August 28, 2003


Homonoculus - thanks for the great links. I'd read the Pak/N Korea stuff a while ago but missed the Pak/bin Laden article. Good stuff - if you had a blog I'd be reading it!
posted by rks404 at 12:47 PM on August 28, 2003


The standard of living in a country like Ireland back when the church really ran peoples' lives was pretty damn shitty for those not fortunate enough to have large amounts of land. I'd certainly wouldn't rate it much higher than life in most Arabic / Middle Eastern countries.

111 has made, evidently without knowing it if we take him at his word that he isn't a troll, a brilliant case for the separation of church and state. (leaving aside the totally baseless statements about lack of art or medical knowledge)
posted by Space Coyote at 12:53 PM on August 28, 2003


111 - almost all of the points in the article I linked occured in the early part of the millenium, through to the Middle Ages - if it wasn't for the Islamic Empire at the time, the western countries would have had nothing to build on - seriously, have you not studied history?

Inventions don't appear out of thin air and art is a wide ranging field. The western world has only had its artistic flowering in the last 1000 years - thanks again to the groundwork laid by others.

Personal hygiene as a general rule is better in muslims than most people. Why? Because its part of our religion - regular bathing and ritual ablution before prayer.

Most terrorist attacks come due to political/sociological differences actually - ETA in Spain, the IRA over here in Britain, Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The list goes on. And of course war - a strict definition of terror would make Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the like amongst the worst acts in history. And of course, we have 'Hindu' terrorists, 'Christian' terrorists and other such labels.

Don't come across as a bigot for the sake of a troll. Or is it just ignorance?

PinkStainlessTail - the problem comes where a religion is used as an excuse for political action and/or self gain. The background of the items you highlighted aren't as a result of strict application of 'divine' law - thou shalt not kill? Islamic law imo can only exist when the populace are sufficiently divided from their culture to be able to understand it. That hasn't happened, so you get an ugly mishmash.

Its interesting to have a look at the Ottoman Empire at the same time as the Western countries were outwardly Christian as an example of how it can't be all bad (although bad bits are there).
posted by Mossy at 12:59 PM on August 28, 2003


Metatalk
posted by asok at 1:03 PM on August 28, 2003


Anyone else getting a connection refused error on the first link? Google has no cache of the page either.
posted by Space Coyote at 1:05 PM on August 28, 2003


Try not to be disingenuous; everybody knows perfectly well that it's the "Salman Rushdie/Ibn Warraq must die" type of fatwa that we find unacceptable and barbaric.

Precisely my point, which you either fail to grasp or simply don't want to-- there is nothing in Islam that says that you should condemn authors to death. However it does say you can make rules and laws to help people. Again, the point is that the religion does not condone such actions, it is up to man to make good rulings or bad rulings. And again, the problem is with the application, not the faith.

the pursuit of pleasure and material gains are not forbidden

I think it's Christianity which you are speaking of. Islam encourages the pursuit of pleasure and sanctions material gains, as long as you give back to the community a small percentage. Islam is by far the most pro-capitalist of the major world religions-- consider its founder, a merchant, and the Quranic importance of proper regulation of business. And your other points in this paragraph have everything to do with countries (most of them, by the way, secular and poor) and nothing to do with religion.
posted by cell divide at 1:16 PM on August 28, 2003


"Don't come across as a bigot for the sake of a troll. Or is it just ignorance?"

No, it's to suck you in dumbass. Which worked as he'd hoped. He'd say something absurdly incorrect, which he doesn't even believe, and you'd return with a well reasoned counter argument. WTF? You spent all that time carefully refuting the assertion that Moslems are dumb and smelly.

Do you not even understand what a troll is? He does it for the drama. He does it because it's fun to see you make a fool of yourself.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:17 PM on August 28, 2003


Chill y6y6y6, I'm just practising my writing skills :) I type at 80-90wpm and almost always type out directly from what I think, so its a few minutes per post, thats all.

The sad fact of the matter is that I have met people with views such as the above both on and offline. Alas.

Mossy is off to graze on other threads so as not to antagonise further, byebyebye.
posted by Mossy at 1:31 PM on August 28, 2003


"Precisely my point, which you either fail to grasp or simply don't want to"

Or........ He's a troll and is having his way with you.

He doesn't believe these things. He doesn't believe Moslems are dumb and smelly. He doesn't believe McCarthy was one of the best things to happen to the US. He doesn't believe universities are full of commie pinkos. But he DOES know that if he dresses that stuff up in fancy clothes and a bow you'll politely explain to him how those ideas are incorrect.

Of course they're fucking incorrect!!!! You think he doesn't know that? Which do you think is more likely: 111 thinks McCarthy is a great American? or 111 likes leading you around by the nose?

Or try this on for size: "If you really know what you're talking about, and if you feel secure about your POVs, you can deal with any argument trollish or not."

Which means, "Even if it's a troll, you're still obligated to fall for it."

Please stop falling for it.

"Chill y6y6y6, I'm just practising my writing skills"

Oh. Well. Since you can type real fast I guess feeding trolls isn't a problem. Okay then.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:39 PM on August 28, 2003


Don't come across as a patronizing hypocrite for the sake of political correctness.

Pot. Kettle. Blackness.
posted by bshort at 1:46 PM on August 28, 2003


The problem is probably a matter of theocracy or a strong religious component to government than Islam specifically.

PinkStainlessTail, read the Bible and the Quran (watch out for the translation you get, it does matter a lot) and see how their respective faith and values developed since the first centuries of the past Millennium. Christians do make lots of historical mistakes, but, as has been said before, when innocent where killed during the crusades, for instance, those who did it knew they were making a terrible mistake and going against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity is definitely not open to violent, aggressive interpretations; the IRA, for example, was never guided by the Gospels or something like that. So it's important to link motivations and actions to values, and this is often politically incorrect, but it's something to be taken into account. Macropolitics goes back to simple values which inform our decisions.

Mossy, I really do not want to knock you particularly, because I understand you're a Muslim and your comments are not rabid or anything, but if you live in the USA, Europe or some other country that's not Amazon.comless, please order books by Warraq just to get acquainted with a different perspective. If you're already familiar with him, say so (but I doubt you are). Then we can discuss who's ignorant.
posted by 111 at 2:33 PM on August 28, 2003


y6y6y6, is right, this is worthless.
posted by Space Coyote at 2:44 PM on August 28, 2003


Hmm. I see more clearly what y6^3 meant - sorry y6^3! :)

Out of curiousity, has anyone seen the movie Dil Se?

posted by Mossy at 2:47 PM on August 28, 2003


YHBT
posted by bshort at 2:55 PM on August 28, 2003




oh man, I fucked it up -- hang on.
posted by condour75 at 3:14 PM on August 28, 2003


condour75 - There's a more extensible kill filter here.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:27 PM on August 28, 2003


thanks y6. This gives me back the next few hours, and a modicum of dignity.
posted by condour75 at 3:29 PM on August 28, 2003



Do you not even understand what a troll is?

Oh. Well. Since you can type real fast I guess feeding trolls isn't a problem. Okay then.

Just what we need. Another category: The troll fanboy.


just what we need, a talking 'do not feed the troll' sign. your one-man windmill-tilt against those who deign to respond to those you deem trolls is destined to fail.
posted by quonsar at 4:03 PM on August 28, 2003


111Filter
posted by bshort at 4:04 PM on August 28, 2003


What would you do if you were running India?

i would first like to see the diamonds...

then i would be beat with reeds then tossed into the ocean.

PLAY NOW
posted by clavdivs at 5:27 PM on August 28, 2003


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