radical militias

October 18, 2003 3:25 PM

Not in Iraq or in Afghanistan, but right here at home. The forgotten front in the War on Terror™? Agents found an underground bunker, thousands of rounds of ammunition, hundreds of pounds of gunpowder and manuals on guerrilla warfare, "booby traps" and explosives....
posted by amberglow (30 comments total)

It's not a war on terrorism, its a war on patriotism.
posted by Keyser Soze at 3:36 PM on October 18, 2003

The best way I've ever heard of dealing with fruitcakes like this was a federal judge with an open-an-shut weapons violation by a certified wacko in front of him.
The kook wanted to defend himself, so with a wink and a nod to the prosecutor to just relax and enjoy the show, they let him rant for FOUR DAYS STRAIGHT (with intermissions, of course.)
At the conclusion of the FOUR DAY diatribe, the wacko rested his case, with an extremely sore throat, and the judge found him guilty and gave him what was coming to him.

Ironically enough, the wacko was *pleased* with the judge, in that somebody, anybody, had finally given him his say. He wrote him a nice thank you note from prison.

N.B.: the judge was even kind to the court reporter, allowing videotape instead of the usual transcription.
posted by kablam at 4:47 PM on October 18, 2003

But isn't this wacko just like the other suspected terrorists who are in guantanamo (without benefit of trials or judges)--even more so because he was armed and ready? An anti-aircraft gun isn't standard wacko arms, is it? Talk about a civil war seems to be a far more immediate threat than people in iraq, to me.

And letting them rant is fine and good, but who's gonna die when they start their war? us.
posted by amberglow at 4:56 PM on October 18, 2003

Amberglow: He's not middle eastern. He's white. It sucks but thats how ignorance works in American Society at the turn of the 21st century.
posted by Keyser Soze at 5:13 PM on October 18, 2003

i know--that's kinda what scares me about this guy, and others like him--while we're off in the middle east, or detaining at brown people, this guy and his pals are really a threat.
posted by amberglow at 5:18 PM on October 18, 2003

These kind of guys are nothing new. Ever been to Montana? or Waco, Texas.
posted by tomplus2 at 5:48 PM on October 18, 2003

There were chilling pictures of President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld with the cross-hairs of a high-powered rifle scope drawn over them

Yeah, so? :)

seriously though, this guy sounds pretty scary, but I wonder if maybe this can open a debate about people who build bunkers and stockpile weapons. Is that always a bad thing? Personally I don't like guns and usually find I can't get along with people who do, but find I am also inclined to agree with many of them and the NRA when they complain that gun control will ultimately mean that only criminals and the gov't (redundant?) will have them. This too is scary to me. Anyone else have an opinion?
posted by LouReedsSon at 6:00 PM on October 18, 2003

bah. the prosecutor in fremont, mi had a plan to jail the town eccentric. it blew up in his face and a state trooper got dead. then they had their own little mini-waco standoff, complete with a tank. they punched a hole in the wall with it and dropped in stun grenades (flashbangs). the house went up in seconds. woodring had already slunk off through the cornfields. a week later they slaughtered him as he exited a junked car he had been hiding in. this latest guy is a nut, no doubt, but make no mistake: the outrageous actions of the authorities in fremont last july have pissed off more than the militia crazies.
posted by quonsar at 6:08 PM on October 18, 2003

Right quonsar, and what a great oportunity to show the nation just how at risk we are and in need of additional homeland sercurity. Funny how that all works out, huh?
posted by LouReedsSon at 6:22 PM on October 18, 2003

quonsar, there are some who would have said we should not have attacked that guy until he posed an imminent threat. To them I say better to engage in that pointless waste of law enforcement resources and wanton destruction now than have the evidence of danger appear in the form of a mushroom cloud over fremont, mi.
posted by deanc at 7:55 PM on October 18, 2003

quonsar - 20 years ago, I lived for a short while near Croton Dam and heard all sorts of talk about one of the land barons up there in Newago County, how you couldn't get a lawyer in G.R., Holland or Muskegon that he didn't have business with, how he screwed people over, how he had the sheriff in his back pocket and how someone who'd run against this sheriff ended up dead in very mysterious circumstances. There's always been a lot of seething anger and resentment in N. Michigan - a lot of unemployment, welfare, arson, rape and violence. It's a ghetto up there with summer tourists who don't realize it.

People have been pissed off for a LONG time up there. It's the perfect breeding ground for militia crazies.
posted by pyramid termite at 7:55 PM on October 18, 2003

Good thing they caught this guy, imagine if any member of the Bush junta was killed. Patriot act II, III, IV would follow. More voters would run scared to the right.

Good job Aschroft, for once.
posted by skallas at 8:43 PM on October 18, 2003

Amberglow - it appears that he is different from those in Guantanamo in the following meaningful ways.

1) He is a citizen.
2) He was not actively engaged in making war on the United States actively.
3) He was not captured on the field of battle during wartime.

Those things. There. Those are the ones that make him different from the ones in Guantanamo.

Keyser Soze - it's nice to see MeFites like you air their presumptive racism here, but Guantanamo takes all colors, as long as they're noncitizens captured on the field of battle during wartime. Ditto Amberglow and your racism. "Brown People?"

How do you live with yourself? Good lord.
posted by swerdloff at 9:20 PM on October 18, 2003

You know, if you start taking the "anti-aircraft guns capable of firing 550 rounds per minute up to four miles away" out of the hands of lawabiding citizens, sooner or later, only the criminals will have anti-aircraft guns capable of firing 550 rounds per minute up to four miles away.
posted by MAYORBOB at 9:28 PM on October 18, 2003

Go peddle that elsewhere swerdloff--Tell us that there are white people in Guantanamo. Oh, you don't know? Perhaps that's because we're not allowed to know. Name one white person held on suspicion of terrorism besides John Walker Lindh. Name one white person questioned like so many in arabic and middle-eastern communities were.

The racism is not here on mefi, but in our government's actions, and the fact that these militia people are still not taken seriously, even after Oklahoma City is another example of it.
posted by amberglow at 9:41 PM on October 18, 2003

You know, if you start taking the "anti-aircraft guns capable of firing 550 rounds per minute up to four miles away" out of the hands of lawabiding citizens, sooner or later, only the criminals will have anti-aircraft guns capable of firing 550 rounds per minute up to four miles away.

You left out the gov't. They scare the shit outa me than any criminal... or terrorist for that matter.
posted by LouReedsSon at 9:59 PM on October 18, 2003

Amberglow: He's not middle eastern. He's white. It sucks but thats how ignorance works in American Society at the turn of the 21st century. - Keyser Soze

It's not a war on threats, or whackos. It's a war on radical islamist terrorists, you idiots. Of course this whacko posed a threat. That's kind of why he's been arrested. What sense is there in criticizing a war on terrorism by advocating a war on individual, disorganized, gun-crazed revolutionary wannabes instead?

And amberglow, how exactly are these militia people not taken seriously? This one was arrested, was he not? Maybe you're aware of some large-scale militant uprising in the heart of the country that CNN missed? Surely you've got something better than the Okla. City bombing 8 years ago, for which McVeigh has already been executed. Want me to start listing every deadly terrorist attack attributed to islamists since 1995 so we can see whose threat is bigger? Don't be ridiculous.
posted by techgnollogic at 12:06 AM on October 19, 2003

>how exactly are these militia people not taken seriously?

Do some googling on the Army of God. They are openly revolutionary and one of their members was arrested for the Olympics bombing, yet where's the big crackdown? Their status of being Christian gives them special protections, in my opinion.

There is real domestic terror and there are political issues that have the final say on who or who isn't targetted. I don't think its as bad as amberglow might be suggesting, but earlier on mefi when we were discussing the abortion doctor murderer killed on death row many mefites would not even grant him the title of terrorist regardless of the epidemic of terror planned parenthood clinics have been dealing with for at least twenty years.

In fact the media bent-over backward to be "balanced" in giving his supporters more media time than most serious international events.

Bias is real and its translates directly into politics and law enforcement is just another branch of politics.
posted by skallas at 1:22 AM on October 19, 2003

Here's where i point out the difference between blowing-up-abortion-clinics terrorism and destroy-your-civilization-in-bloody-jihad terrorism, and which is more likely to pose the greater threat.
posted by techgnollogic at 2:14 AM on October 19, 2003

Also: Paul Hill was executed.
posted by techgnollogic at 2:22 AM on October 19, 2003

techgnollogic, that the motivations for the terrorists is different doesn't lessen the terror felt, does it?
What's this 'destroy-your-civilisation' rhetoric*? Do you think that the muslim agitants want to completely destroy the infrastrusture and society of the US (just as the US has tried to do to Iraq over the past 12 years, or as Israel is attempting to do to Palestine)?
Do you think they are stupid enough to let the religious fundamentalism get in the way of economic sense?
They just want everyone to live life according to ancient doctrines, which they believe will result in a better world, don't they?
/rhetorical questions
*I have heard it before, and though I can see the attractiveness of this idea as something to rail against I am not sure of the veracity of the claim. Is it an all-or-nothing battle with the adversaries threatening to destroy the prize if they are not victorious?
posted by asok at 3:07 AM on October 19, 2003

What's this 'destroy-your-civilisation' rhetoric*? Do you think that the muslim agitants want to completely destroy the infrastrusture and society of the US (just as the US has tried to do to Iraq over the past 12 years, or as Israel is attempting to do to Palestine)

Regarding Palestine: what infrastructure? What have the Palestinians attempted to buildAnd why are you listing Israel against Palestine when the Palestinian goal for so many years has been complete eradication of the state of Israel?
posted by swerve at 9:08 AM on October 19, 2003

Take two: what have the Palestinians attempted to build that Israel has destroyed in the way of infrastructure? (proceed from point of insertion, thank you)
posted by swerve at 9:10 AM on October 19, 2003

swerve, it is hard to say this without sounding condescending, but are you serious? Maybe it is a testiment to the differences in European and US perspectives (read: press coverage) on the Palestine, but from what position is your question framed?
In other words, are you trolling?
'In response to a series of suicidal explosions, Israel in December launched attacks on Palestinian installations and destroyed some infrastructure financed by the EU or EU member states, such as Gaza International Airport, Gaza port and Palestinian television and radio broadcasting.'
Plenty of reading there, if you choose to peruse the links.
/derail
posted by asok at 11:29 AM on October 19, 2003

I'm not trolling. Your links are interesting; thank you. I stand corrected on the infrastructure remark. The argument regarding destruction of civilization remains. I don't understand why you would include Israel against Palestine, when it's Palestine's wish to eradicate Israel that's been stopping the peace process.

On the other hand, that question drags us both into classic I/P, so I'll stop my end of the derail here and keep it in mind for the future.
posted by swerve at 12:57 PM on October 19, 2003

>and which is more likely to pose the greater threat.

Level of threat doesn't define terrorism. I suggest you read some definitions of terror and take a good uncritical look at what abortion clinics have gone through the past 30 years and come back and tell me it isn't domestic terrorism.
posted by skallas at 2:26 PM on October 19, 2003

I got an email in response to my question above about naming a white person locked up without trial in guantanamo: There's an Australian guy. It's something of an issue in Australia.
posted by amberglow at 6:34 PM on October 19, 2003

Nice link to the David Hicks as a saint web site. As Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story" has a bit of a wrinkle in it for all those who like to bash the U.S. for riding roughshod over the human rights of the Gitmo internees. According to this story the U.S. offered to return Hicks to Australia and Australia turned them down, essentially saying that Hicks is the U.S.' problem.
posted by MAYORBOB at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2003

I never heard of this guy until just now, but it seems to me that they essentially said that they couldn't charge him with anything so don't want or can't get him back, since their laws weren't passed until after he was captured, and don't apply to him. We're not releasing anyone to other countries unless they can be charged with something, I believe. After all, according to Bush, they're "evildoers," whether they did anything or not.
posted by amberglow at 7:08 PM on October 19, 2003

You bet your boots it's still an issue in Australia.
posted by emf at 9:53 PM on October 19, 2003