Hearts and Minds in Iraq

October 21, 2003 9:57 AM

Hearts and Minds: Post-War Civilian Deaths in Baghdad Caused by U.S. Forces. "Adil abd al Karim al Kawwaz was driving home from his in-laws' house in Baghdad one night in August with his wife and four kids. It was dark, and he couldn't see the American soldiers from the 1st Armored Division operating a checkpoint with armored vehicles and heavy-caliber guns. No signs or lights were visible, and he did not understand that he was supposed to stop. So he drove a bit too close and the soldiers opened fire, killing him along with three of his children, the youngest of whom was 8 years old. Such accidents are no longer rare in Iraq. They occur at checkpoints, during raids or after roadside attacks as edgy U.S. soldiers resort with distressing speed to lethal force." "The precise number of Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. soldiers since the end of major military operations is unknown....'It’s a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad, but it’s really incredible that the U.S. military does not even count these deaths.'"
posted by fold_and_mutilate (13 comments total)

*wrings hands, clucks tongue*

Yeah, that's sure terrible.

*looks around*

Now what?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:10 AM on October 21, 2003

"No signs or lights were visible, and he did not understand that he was supposed to stop."

How do we know what he saw and understood if he's dead?

Just sayin' . . .
posted by Outlawyr at 10:14 AM on October 21, 2003

By the way, this post is based on a new report by Human Rights Watch which is not a group on the lunatic fringe by any measure. This is sad, sad stuff that is made more horrible because it has been more or less expected that this kind of thing would occur.

Every day that I walk throught the front door of the New York Times building I am presented with a large photograph of an Iraqi woman crying over the face of her dead husband and I think of my wife and my daughter in a city alone without any income when everything is falling apart around them.
posted by n9 at 10:16 AM on October 21, 2003

...and too the syrian truck driver killed in Iraq yesterday.
Wonder how many are stray bullets? Remember the day I visited USC campus the day before a student was killed by a gang bangers stray bullet.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2003

so then, what say we give Saddam a second chance then...
posted by BentPenguin at 10:25 AM on October 21, 2003

That's it. The damn gang bangers. I knew there was a simple explanation.
posted by soyjoy at 10:25 AM on October 21, 2003

so then, what say we give Saddam a second chance then...

Most pointless comeback ever.
posted by Wulfgar! at 10:27 AM on October 21, 2003

I saw a documentary about the occupation on PBS last week (Frontline, I think) that featured two episodes of civilian death. Both, if they had occurred in the US, would have been prosecutable as some sort of homicide. We can't just fire into crowds with no provocation. That is not good crowd control.

I am absolutely sick about how troops are, quite literally, murdering people in my name. Will no officials take any responsibility for this, or have we determined that Iraqi lives are worth less than other humans?

And yes, I am aware that these troops are in the line of fire, and yes it's a combat zone still. Yes, I have considered that many in the populace are hostile. Perhaps our leaders should have considered that before putting our troops in such a dangerous environment. That does not justify us killing civilians.

what say we give Saddam a second chance then

Weak. I think that's what we call the "fallacy of the false dichotomy."

*wrings hands, clucks tongue*

I don't think you understand how dangerous our course of action is, if this is your response. This occupation is bound to come back and haunt us if we continue to brutalize the population and not hold reckless troops accountable.
posted by norm at 10:29 AM on October 21, 2003

Never has American prestige in Europe been lower. The taste of victory had gone sour in the mouth of every thoughtful American. “We’ve lost the peace. We can’t make it stick. It’s what our boys have been doing [in the Army] that worries me.” (Life Magazine, January 1946)
posted by stbalbach at 10:33 AM on October 21, 2003

"I don't think you understand how dangerous our course of action is, if this is your response."

My point is, we've covered this territory over and over and over. No one's going to bring anything new to this discussion. This thread is for teeth-gnashing and garment-rending, like all of its predecessors on this subject.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:47 AM on October 21, 2003

I saw a documentary about the occupation on PBS last week (Frontline, I think) that featured two episodes of civilian death.

That was on truth, war & consequences and yes, it was extremely disturbing.
posted by homunculus at 10:50 AM on October 21, 2003

F&M is to MeFi as Jon Katz is (was?) to Slashdot.
posted by xmutex at 10:55 AM on October 21, 2003

as edgy U.S. soldiers resort with distressing speed to lethal force.

Well, lessee, our soldiers are watching their friends and coworkers be killed in ambushes and surprise attacks, and someone is surprised that they "resort with disressing speed to lethal force?"

This is besides the point that our soldiers are trained to overwhelm and kill any resistance, and then are relegated to the role of "policemen" who shouldn't kill anyone unless absolutely necessary.

I'm pretty sure we all know it's not an ideal situation over there. Do you have a point beyond this?
posted by Lafe at 11:02 AM on October 21, 2003