Comments on: One Nation Under Stuff

One Nation Under Stuff

afx114 — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:05:04 -0800

"It's a tragic event ..., but it's an example of the American spirit of protecting our assets." Interesting/odd quote regarding a Firefighter who lost his life yesterday saving the historic mining town of Julian in San Diego County. Tragedy aside, since when is having/protecting stuff a part of the "American Spirit?"

By: afx114

afx114 — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:06:58 -0800

I find this quote disrespectful to the Firefighter who perished. Was he protecting assets, or was he was protecting lives, memories, and futures??

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:16:53 -0800

Have you been to Julian? Very fun old town, that produces apples. Lot of retired folk hang out there, I'd call the town an asset of California.

By: Dunvegan

Dunvegan — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:17:33 -0800

*stunned* Is this what it's come to in America? The Chief of the California Department of Forestry actually said this? Is that a policy statement, Chief Hawkins? Or is this just your personal sentiments about the aims, goals, and priorities of the CDF, what you think is reasonable to put your firefighter's lives at risk for, and what you hold most dear?

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:17:45 -0800

Yeah, this whole new thing of property and ownership and the capitalistic love of great goddamned stuff is just brand spanking new.

By: elpapacito

elpapacito — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:19:21 -0800

In a country with a short past, almost anything can be called "historic" including a mine ; so I guess that according to author it is part of American Spirt to safeguard historical sites. Personally I'd rather have told the firefighter to duck and cover, it's not like a mine is Monna Lisa, imho.

By: afx114

afx114 — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:22:37 -0800

Yes, my dad lived up there, it was my second home growing up. I'd rather that a firefighter, husband, and father of two have his life back than a kitchy, tourist money-sucker "asset" remain standing.

By: substrate

substrate — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:26:07 -0800

It's even more disrespectful since it comes from the Fire Chief:

...said CDF Chief John Hawkins.

"It's a tragic event," Hawkins said. "It's a tragic event to the county of San Diego, but it's an example of the American spirit of protecting our assets."

In reality part of what the firefighters do is protect assets, but it would've been better to phrase it as protecting peoples lives. Assets, for good or bad, are a part of peoples lives. If the goal was purely to prevent the loss of life then all that would be required is an effort to hold back the fire while evacuation takes place. Many peoples livelihoods and hence lives would be destroyed if this were done, but their lives would be intact.

By: rcade

rcade — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:30:04 -0800

The California Department of Forestry might want to let someone other than Chief Hawkins talk to the press. Though Hawkins expressed the sentiment in an obscene way, the stuff those firefighters are protecting includes local economies, livelihoods, and historic places. That guy didn't lose his life simply to protect the fruits of conspicuous consumption.

By: Dunvegan

Dunvegan — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:30:33 -0800

Perhaps we need George Carlin as Cardinal Click with his Buddy Christ to give the CDF Chief a sermon on "stuff."

"If you didn't have so much stuff, you wouldn't need a house. You could just walk around all the time. A house is just a pile of stuff with a cover on it." --George Carlin

By: vito90

vito90 — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:31:48 -0800

I would be interested in hearing what a firefighter has to say about this. There has been no shortage of interviews lately with firefighters and they all repeat the same mantra. "One, we're here to save lives. Two, we're here to protect property. Three, if one and two are secured, we will aggresively fight the fire." So maybe it is drilled into firefighters that their first responsibilities are defensive in nature. Maybe the fire chief was saying, in effect, "This firefighter died doing his/her job?" I would be willing to bet this fire chief has plenty of compassion and respect and angst for the fallen firefighter, and didn't mean for his statement to be interpreted the way it is being...

By: pardonyou?

pardonyou? — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:32:15 -0800

Tragedy aside, since when is having/protecting stuff a part of the "American Spirit?" Since always? Why do we have crimes of burglary, theft, and larceny? Why do firefighters continue to fight building fires if nobody's inside? As for having stuff, one could make an argument that this country was formed primarily because of King George's excessive taxation (i.e., taking away "stuff"). I find the question odd. I find the fact that people are so bothered by the chief's truism odd.

By: Dunvegan

Dunvegan — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:32:21 -0800

(...now, the after coffe version.) Perhaps we need George Carlin as Cardinal Click with his Buddy Christ to give the CDF Chief a sermon on "stuff."

"If you didn't have so much stuff, you wouldn't need a house. You could just walk around all the time. A house is just a pile of stuff with a cover on it." --George Carlin

By: afx114

afx114 — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:40:39 -0800

I find the question odd. I find the fact that people are so bothered by the chief's truism odd. "The War On Terrorism" is to protect our assets too, but the press secretary isn't dumb enough to admit it.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:46:52 -0800

I have no problem with this.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:47:32 -0800

Maybe he meant to say "the American spirit of protecting our asses".

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:00:57 -0800

I thought protecting stuff is the sole reason the US keeps acting aggressively to its trading partners, to third world countries, and to countries it just plain doesn't like.

By: Cerebus

Cerebus — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:04:26 -0800

But you have to protect the assets, otherwise they won't have a chance at winning when they die. Duh.

By: drinkcoffee

drinkcoffee — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:13:06 -0800

Asset: a useful or valuable quality, person, or thing. Not just stuff. Is Pine Valley near Julian? I had the BEST pancakes I have EVER had, there, in 1989. That's what I'd call an asset.

By: callmejay

callmejay — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:08:50 -0800

I seem to remember a lot of people complaining more loudly about the looted Iraqi museums than about the dead people.

By: monkey.pie.baker

monkey.pie.baker — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:58:27 -0800

Fighting fires is for suckers. Let it all burn -- it's just stuff.

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:41:20 -0800

Dude. Department of Forestry. As in, the guys second only to the lumber industry in wanting to see all of the forests gone. They've been in it for the businesses for years. I thought this oxymoron was well known by now...

By: kindall

kindall — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:45:12 -0800

Look up the phrase "life, liberty, and estate." The phrase more familiarly ends in "the pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration, but the Lockean identification of the three major natural rights as being life, liberty, and property were definitely a part of the initial American philosophical mix, and have been ever since. It's hard for firefighters to protect liberty directly, but certainly it is within their charter to protect life and property. In a forest fire, property is much more in danger than is life; given sufficient warning, people can evacuate and save their lives. Should a man be willing to give his life to protect "mere" property? (Not that there's anything "mere" about something this country's founders likely regarded as a fundamental human right.) The decision is in no case for anyone to make but the man whose life it is. Mr. Rucker, having made his choice, lived up to his commitment with honor. The Chief could have phrased it a little more tactfully, given the circumstances, but there's nothing really objectionable about what he said.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:04:25 -0800

Fire chiefs are rarely selected for their eloquence (which is a good thing, because we writer-types wouldn't be a damn bit of use with a hook-and-ladder!) However, firefighters' job descriptions are, fundamentally, to 1) protect all humans possible, and 2) to protect all property possible. Now, if I had written the Chief's talking points, I would have made sure to put something like "The American Spirit: Protecting Others' Lives and Homes" on the index card.

By: madamjujujive

madamjujujive — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:04:30 -0800

I would cut this chief a break. I feel so sorry for all the spokespeople from the fire depts that I see on TV - they look exhausted almost beyond human endurance. Add to that losing someone in your charge - the death of a colleague is never a small thing to fellow firefighters. This poor guy was probably the one who had to break the news to the deceased man's wife and kids. I rather doubt most good fire chiefs get to where they are because of their media relations skills. And I'm not sure if any of us had been through the kind of day he'd been through, we would be at our glib best when inundated by reporters.

By: Cerebus

Cerebus — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:51:06 -0800

Should a man be willing to give his life to protect "mere" property? (Not that there's anything "mere" about something this country's founders likely regarded as a fundamental human right.) The fundamental right is to own property, not the property itself as you imply; i.e., the right to have possessions that can't be taken away without just compensation. Now, giving your life defending the right to property, OK-- but not for any particular piece of property. A subtle difference.

By: kindall

kindall — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:53:41 -0800

Defending a particular piece of my property is defending my right to possess that property. The fire's gonna come and take it away without just compensation. What are you gonna do about it?

By: Cerebus

Cerebus — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:19:10 -0800

That's why they call it an act of God, me bucko. Feel free to file suit any time.

By: tiamat

tiamat — Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:51:09 -0800

Um, I thought the USA was basically built on the idea of property rights. aka 'stuff'

By: rcade

rcade — Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:08:20 -0800

I don't think God had anything to do with the poor forest management policies that made a disaster of this magnitude inevitable.