Picture Hunt time!
November 6, 2003 3:48 PM Subscribe
Picture Hunt time! How many women are in this picture? (more inside)
One, the back head in the lower left hand corner. Give me some candy!
posted by Stan Chin at 3:53 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by Stan Chin at 3:53 PM on November 6, 2003
Well, there was the photographer...
posted by SisterHavana at 3:54 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by SisterHavana at 3:54 PM on November 6, 2003
As a uterus lacking man, and not being a fetus, my opinion on abortion may not carry much weight, but how could any one argue *for* partial birth abortion?
partial birth abortion = too lazy to have it done before the fetus developes brain waves and pain receptors.
As much as I dislike Bush, and his reasons for passing the law (influence etc.) I find no moral fault with it.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 3:57 PM on November 6, 2003
partial birth abortion = too lazy to have it done before the fetus developes brain waves and pain receptors.
As much as I dislike Bush, and his reasons for passing the law (influence etc.) I find no moral fault with it.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 3:57 PM on November 6, 2003
There might not be any women in that picture, but there sure are plenty of pussies.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:58 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by monju_bosatsu at 3:58 PM on November 6, 2003
As a uterus lacking man, and not being a fetus, my opinion on abortion may not carry much weight, but how could any one argue *against* an exception for the health of the mother?
posted by machaus at 4:01 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by machaus at 4:01 PM on November 6, 2003
As I see it, there was a pretty easy solution that doesn't involve creating all kinds of bizarre statutory restrictions on medical practice. Declare and age of fetal "citizenship" when it's elligible for equal protection under the law. But then, that's not as sexy as banning a proceedure that this physician (nor any that I know) actually know what it is. It would also likely stand constitutional muster as there's nothing unconstitutional about extending constitutional protections.
posted by shagoth at 4:02 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by shagoth at 4:02 PM on November 6, 2003
Is this something you need a vagina to know about? Because I lack a vagina.
posted by Stan Chin at 4:06 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by Stan Chin at 4:06 PM on November 6, 2003
God almighty, I could really use a double bacon cheeseburger, a large Sprite, and a partial birth abortion after work today.
Guess I'm SOL.
posted by xmutex at 4:12 PM on November 6, 2003
Guess I'm SOL.
posted by xmutex at 4:12 PM on November 6, 2003
partial birth abortion = too lazy to have it done before the fetus developes brain waves and pain receptors.
Or that maybe there is something seriously wrong with the fetus that could kill both.
The problem with the law that I've heard is that it leaves no medical wiggle room. I dunno, maybe there are other procedures that completely replace this one, but it doesn't seem like it.
Most pro-choicers won't like this because it is a step down that slope, and that, in and of itself, is why they won't like it.
But then again, I too plead the penis in this debate.
posted by wah at 4:16 PM on November 6, 2003
Or that maybe there is something seriously wrong with the fetus that could kill both.
The problem with the law that I've heard is that it leaves no medical wiggle room. I dunno, maybe there are other procedures that completely replace this one, but it doesn't seem like it.
Most pro-choicers won't like this because it is a step down that slope, and that, in and of itself, is why they won't like it.
But then again, I too plead the penis in this debate.
posted by wah at 4:16 PM on November 6, 2003
*gives Stan some candy*
The head of the man on the far left was obviously photoshopped in. AaRdVarK, I guess you missed the previous discussion on the passage of the bill -- that probably would have been a better place to bring up the issue (we already knew who the supporters were at that point, and that the lead opposition was from Sen. Barbara Boxer).
posted by eddydamascene at 4:23 PM on November 6, 2003
The head of the man on the far left was obviously photoshopped in. AaRdVarK, I guess you missed the previous discussion on the passage of the bill -- that probably would have been a better place to bring up the issue (we already knew who the supporters were at that point, and that the lead opposition was from Sen. Barbara Boxer).
posted by eddydamascene at 4:23 PM on November 6, 2003
if the mother is in danger, kill the damn baby. I agree.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 4:26 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 4:26 PM on November 6, 2003
To paraphrase an old Doritos commercial, "Abort all you want. We'll make more."
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:32 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:32 PM on November 6, 2003
It's always struck me as futile to issue an ultimatum one way or the other, and legislation like this doesn't help things at all.
The option of abortion should be considered within the context of a particular pregnancy, and decided by the parents with the counsel of medical personnel. To say that it's always, always wrong or that it's never, ever wrong seems like a rather narrow-minded, simplistic way to approach a very broad and complex issue.
posted by antifreez_ at 4:40 PM on November 6, 2003
The option of abortion should be considered within the context of a particular pregnancy, and decided by the parents with the counsel of medical personnel. To say that it's always, always wrong or that it's never, ever wrong seems like a rather narrow-minded, simplistic way to approach a very broad and complex issue.
posted by antifreez_ at 4:40 PM on November 6, 2003
To say that it's always, always wrong or that it's never, ever wrong seems like a rather narrow-minded, simplistic way to approach a very broad and complex issue.
In other words, it's a very American approach.
posted by rushmc at 4:46 PM on November 6, 2003
In other words, it's a very American approach.
posted by rushmc at 4:46 PM on November 6, 2003
I for one welcome our new pimp overlord, quonsar !
posted by elpapacito at 4:49 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by elpapacito at 4:49 PM on November 6, 2003
the emergency dilation-and-extraction method is only used in times of emergency. such as when the baby will be stillborn. or when it's missing vital organs. or when its brain has developed on the outside of its head. labor and childbirth are incredibly risky without having to go through labor for a stillborn.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:50 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by pxe2000 at 4:50 PM on November 6, 2003
Which state(s) is fighting this, Nebraska? Heard about it this morning now forgot, which one.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:52 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by thomcatspike at 4:52 PM on November 6, 2003
Nebraska, New York and California have pending trials and therefore, injunctions.
posted by machaus at 4:58 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by machaus at 4:58 PM on November 6, 2003
if the mother is in danger, kill the damn baby. I agree.
Yeah, I see your point - they should both die. Furthermore, you should get to make that decision.
posted by jalexei at 5:16 PM on November 6, 2003
Yeah, I see your point - they should both die. Furthermore, you should get to make that decision.
posted by jalexei at 5:16 PM on November 6, 2003
Is this something you need a vagina to know about? Because I lack a vagina.
I've heard there are some people in the blue who would argue otherwise. Not nameing names, but...
posted by billsaysthis at 5:48 PM on November 6, 2003
I've heard there are some people in the blue who would argue otherwise. Not nameing names, but...
posted by billsaysthis at 5:48 PM on November 6, 2003
too lazy to have it done before the fetus developes brain waves and pain receptors.
And if there isn't anywhere to go for an abortion in her county, or the next, or say two counties over, or maybe three, is she still just too lazy? 87% of all US counties don't have an abortion provider anymore. "In 1982, 1,405 U.S. hospitals provided abortions. In 2000, only 603 U.S. hospitals provided abortions." More info. here.
And what if she's poor? Abortions cost money. Since 1977, Medicaid doesn't pay for abortions unless the woman's life is in danger. More info. here.
And what if she intended to keep the baby, but finds out well into her pregnancy that something is terribly wrong like the fetus is dead? Or is hydrocephalic and missing most of its brain. Hmmm, it's so simple. They're all just too lazy.
posted by lobakgo at 5:53 PM on November 6, 2003
And if there isn't anywhere to go for an abortion in her county, or the next, or say two counties over, or maybe three, is she still just too lazy? 87% of all US counties don't have an abortion provider anymore. "In 1982, 1,405 U.S. hospitals provided abortions. In 2000, only 603 U.S. hospitals provided abortions." More info. here.
And what if she's poor? Abortions cost money. Since 1977, Medicaid doesn't pay for abortions unless the woman's life is in danger. More info. here.
And what if she intended to keep the baby, but finds out well into her pregnancy that something is terribly wrong like the fetus is dead? Or is hydrocephalic and missing most of its brain. Hmmm, it's so simple. They're all just too lazy.
posted by lobakgo at 5:53 PM on November 6, 2003
There might not have been any women in the photo, but dammit there are six (6) american flags. Abortions, apparently, are not patriotic.
posted by skyscraper at 6:13 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by skyscraper at 6:13 PM on November 6, 2003
What the fuck is the white house doing photoshopping press releases?! And with lesser quality than a centrally planned photoshop department, for shame.
posted by copmuter at 6:34 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by copmuter at 6:34 PM on November 6, 2003
brainy suckers.
Quiz: Why are there 6 flags in the picture?
posted by stbalbach at 6:35 PM on November 6, 2003
Quiz: Why are there 6 flags in the picture?
posted by stbalbach at 6:35 PM on November 6, 2003
Thanks, poopy. ReligiousTolerance.org rocks, as usual.
posted by tippiedog at 6:42 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by tippiedog at 6:42 PM on November 6, 2003
Whether or not you actually have a vagina, you no doubt have a vagina by proxy in the form of a wife, a girl friend, a sister, a friend, so this story could involve you someday. Hopefully you won't have to watch your wife or sister die because a procedure that could save her life is illegal.
I am glad you posted this pic AaRdVarK. And pretty much the same group lined up again today like a surreal version of the Dutch master paintings. I don't want this group of old, white, male zealots running my world and making decisions for me. The only women and people of color they let in the tent are creepy androids that bear no resemblance to any women or blacks I've ever met. It is essential that we get this cabal out of power asap - I despair that we will live with their oppressive legacy for decades, perhaps the rest of my life.
The term "partial birth abortion" was dredged up by the wingnuts to evoke just the knee jerk emotional reaction we witnessed in this thread. Many media are trying to avoid the loaded term but it's rather hard when it's the name of the bill.
The more correct term for the procedure is D&X for "dilation and extraction" and it is generally used in the following instances: (From poopy's great link)
-When the fetus is dead.
-When the fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
-When the fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
-When the fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:15 PM on November 6, 2003
I am glad you posted this pic AaRdVarK. And pretty much the same group lined up again today like a surreal version of the Dutch master paintings. I don't want this group of old, white, male zealots running my world and making decisions for me. The only women and people of color they let in the tent are creepy androids that bear no resemblance to any women or blacks I've ever met. It is essential that we get this cabal out of power asap - I despair that we will live with their oppressive legacy for decades, perhaps the rest of my life.
The term "partial birth abortion" was dredged up by the wingnuts to evoke just the knee jerk emotional reaction we witnessed in this thread. Many media are trying to avoid the loaded term but it's rather hard when it's the name of the bill.
The more correct term for the procedure is D&X for "dilation and extraction" and it is generally used in the following instances: (From poopy's great link)
-When the fetus is dead.
-When the fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
-When the fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
-When the fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:15 PM on November 6, 2003
Metafilter: a vagina by proxy
posted by anastasiav at 8:39 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by anastasiav at 8:39 PM on November 6, 2003
partial birth abortion = too lazy to have it done before the fetus develops brain waves and pain receptors.
Oh, for heavens sake.
Here, read this article and this one too written by and about women who have actually had to undergo the procedure. (Salon links - you may be required to view an add to read the article) "Approximately two-thirds of my daughter's brain had formed outside her skull. ... What I had thought to be strong, big, healthy baby movements were in fact seizures caused by the compression of the encephalocoele that continued to grow, as Abigail did, inside my womb."
Here's another - "the baby girl had a fatal and irreparable problem. The heart, liver, intestines and spleen were floating deformed outside the abdomen, which had not closed properly"
And here's one from Slate - this time written by an MD. Again, note the phrase "catastrophic genetic and developmental defects"
The movement to criminalize abortion in America may have won supporters for this badly-written law by spreading the graphic tales told by doctors and nurses who have seen this (admittedly rather gruesome) procedure performed. But far, far more late-term abortions are done in this country every year as a result of situations like the ones above than are done as a result of any "laziness" on the part of the mother.
posted by anastasiav at 9:12 PM on November 6, 2003
Oh, for heavens sake.
Here, read this article and this one too written by and about women who have actually had to undergo the procedure. (Salon links - you may be required to view an add to read the article) "Approximately two-thirds of my daughter's brain had formed outside her skull. ... What I had thought to be strong, big, healthy baby movements were in fact seizures caused by the compression of the encephalocoele that continued to grow, as Abigail did, inside my womb."
Here's another - "the baby girl had a fatal and irreparable problem. The heart, liver, intestines and spleen were floating deformed outside the abdomen, which had not closed properly"
And here's one from Slate - this time written by an MD. Again, note the phrase "catastrophic genetic and developmental defects"
The movement to criminalize abortion in America may have won supporters for this badly-written law by spreading the graphic tales told by doctors and nurses who have seen this (admittedly rather gruesome) procedure performed. But far, far more late-term abortions are done in this country every year as a result of situations like the ones above than are done as a result of any "laziness" on the part of the mother.
posted by anastasiav at 9:12 PM on November 6, 2003
There used to be a catchphrase to describe America. I recall that it used to be said with pride, as representative of all that made America great, as a standard to which other countries should hope to attain.
Funny thing is, I can't quite remember the words.
It started out "America, Land of the..." ...but for the life of me, I can't figure out how it ended.
Land of the Imprisoned? No, that can't be it. I don't think having more prisoners than any other nation on earth, democratic or dictatorship, is something to be proud of.
Land of the Democratic? Judging by the vote scandals, this simply can't be the right phrase!
Land of the Harassed? That doesn't sound likely, although with ongoing pAnIcOnTeRoRiSm it's certainly apt.
Land of the Informed? Heh. That'd be a great bit of phrase, if it were true. But between the blatant lying coming out of the Whitehouse and the weirdly-distorted news and editorials coming out of the big news media, informed is one of the things most Americans are not.
Damn. I just can't remember it.
Ah, well, it doesn't much matter. After all, I live in Canada, Land of the Free. Or, at any rate, a helluva lot more free than you poor Americans.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:24 PM on November 6, 2003
Funny thing is, I can't quite remember the words.
It started out "America, Land of the..." ...but for the life of me, I can't figure out how it ended.
Land of the Imprisoned? No, that can't be it. I don't think having more prisoners than any other nation on earth, democratic or dictatorship, is something to be proud of.
Land of the Democratic? Judging by the vote scandals, this simply can't be the right phrase!
Land of the Harassed? That doesn't sound likely, although with ongoing pAnIcOnTeRoRiSm it's certainly apt.
Land of the Informed? Heh. That'd be a great bit of phrase, if it were true. But between the blatant lying coming out of the Whitehouse and the weirdly-distorted news and editorials coming out of the big news media, informed is one of the things most Americans are not.
Damn. I just can't remember it.
Ah, well, it doesn't much matter. After all, I live in Canada, Land of the Free. Or, at any rate, a helluva lot more free than you poor Americans.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:24 PM on November 6, 2003
FFF, please stop pouring salt and lemon juice in this open wound. Please? Thanks.
posted by anastasiav at 9:32 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by anastasiav at 9:32 PM on November 6, 2003
on reflection (is that anything like 'on preview'?)
I've said it before but I think it bears repeating:
What I find most frightening about all this is the fact that most Americans (with the exception of you and me and about 17,000 others like us out there on the Internet) honestly don't care want to become informed on issues like this. You could tell them anything - you could tell them that the doctors are cooking and eating the fetus after the procedure - and they'd believe it so long as they saw it on Fox news.
Its more than disheartening, its downright frightening.
I mean, I suppose they are, in fact, getting the government they deserve, but damn it I deserve better.
posted by anastasiav at 9:45 PM on November 6, 2003
I've said it before but I think it bears repeating:
What I find most frightening about all this is the fact that most Americans (with the exception of you and me and about 17,000 others like us out there on the Internet) honestly don't care want to become informed on issues like this. You could tell them anything - you could tell them that the doctors are cooking and eating the fetus after the procedure - and they'd believe it so long as they saw it on Fox news.
Its more than disheartening, its downright frightening.
I mean, I suppose they are, in fact, getting the government they deserve, but damn it I deserve better.
posted by anastasiav at 9:45 PM on November 6, 2003
stbalback,
Quiz: Why are there 6 flags in the picture?
Dunno, and the only hint googling gave me was the six stars thing.
But I can tell you with great accuracy why there were six flags over Texas.
.....idly wonders what Iraqis will think of 'Dallas' reruns.....
posted by wah at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2003
Quiz: Why are there 6 flags in the picture?
Dunno, and the only hint googling gave me was the six stars thing.
But I can tell you with great accuracy why there were six flags over Texas.
.....idly wonders what Iraqis will think of 'Dallas' reruns.....
posted by wah at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2003
I think what bothers me is how everyone is smiling like they're in a toothpaste commercial or something. Creepy.
posted by Andrea at 10:52 PM on November 6, 2003
posted by Andrea at 10:52 PM on November 6, 2003
When did the anti-abortion people start to rebrand as pro-choice/life and why has the media adopted this term?
They seem to do the same rebranding to make these sort of laws acceptable to people who only read headlines.
In the UK until recently it was always called anti-abortion - don't know the bbc current guidelines.
posted by dprs75 at 2:36 AM on November 7, 2003
They seem to do the same rebranding to make these sort of laws acceptable to people who only read headlines.
In the UK until recently it was always called anti-abortion - don't know the bbc current guidelines.
posted by dprs75 at 2:36 AM on November 7, 2003
Does anyone think it's possible that they wrote this bill with the idea it'd be swatted down, thereby igniting a goodly portion of the electorate and putting considerable pressure on congress to approve seriously partisan judges? "Stenberg v Carhart" is pretty clear on the health-of-the-mother requirement. A 1-L could see that district judges would stop it cold -- surely hot-shot GOP lawyers knew this as well.
posted by RavinDave at 4:34 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by RavinDave at 4:34 AM on November 7, 2003
What I find most frightening about all this is the fact that most Americans (with the exception of you and me and about 17,000 others like us out there on the Internet) honestly don't want to become informed on issues like this.
In other words, "everyone who disagrees with me is stupid." There's no difference between you and Rush. This is a disgusting law, but your bigoted attitude is one reason why all those people who haven't attained your lofty level of enlightenment support it.
posted by fuzz at 5:32 AM on November 7, 2003
In other words, "everyone who disagrees with me is stupid." There's no difference between you and Rush. This is a disgusting law, but your bigoted attitude is one reason why all those people who haven't attained your lofty level of enlightenment support it.
posted by fuzz at 5:32 AM on November 7, 2003
how could any one argue *for* partial birth abortion?
There are two dirty secrets about D&E abortions that conservatives try to ignore:
1. They are a tiny precentage of real abortions. In the year 2000 so called "partial birth abortions" made up only 1.7% of all abortions that year - about 2000 abortions. So the ban itself will do little to actually decrease the number of abortions performed.
2. A majority of that 1.7% were done by couples who's unborn child were developing without a brain or with severe birth defects. These are discoveries which often aren't made until late term.
As a side note: I think that if religious conservatives were really concerend about decreasing the actual number of abortions performed in this country they would grow up and start supporting real sex-ed in schools along with free counterceptives, etc.
posted by wfrgms at 6:01 AM on November 7, 2003
There are two dirty secrets about D&E abortions that conservatives try to ignore:
1. They are a tiny precentage of real abortions. In the year 2000 so called "partial birth abortions" made up only 1.7% of all abortions that year - about 2000 abortions. So the ban itself will do little to actually decrease the number of abortions performed.
2. A majority of that 1.7% were done by couples who's unborn child were developing without a brain or with severe birth defects. These are discoveries which often aren't made until late term.
As a side note: I think that if religious conservatives were really concerend about decreasing the actual number of abortions performed in this country they would grow up and start supporting real sex-ed in schools along with free counterceptives, etc.
posted by wfrgms at 6:01 AM on November 7, 2003
I thought the bill offered an exception for when the life of the mother was endangered, but not a general exception for the health of the mother? I think it should be the mother's choice either way, but one is much worse than the other.
Also agree with what headspace and others have been saying re birth defects, etc.
Andrea, that was my first reaction, too -- must they smile about it like that? Ick. Reminds me of the smiling, mute Gentlemen in Buffy.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:37 AM on November 7, 2003
Also agree with what headspace and others have been saying re birth defects, etc.
Andrea, that was my first reaction, too -- must they smile about it like that? Ick. Reminds me of the smiling, mute Gentlemen in Buffy.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:37 AM on November 7, 2003
In other words, "everyone who disagrees with me is stupid." There's no difference between you and Rush. This is a disgusting law, but your bigoted attitude is one reason why all those people who haven't attained your lofty level of enlightenment support it.
Fuzz, I think you're misunderstanding me, most likely because of my reference to Fox news.
I'm not saying that everyone who disagrees with me is stupid. What I am saying is that the American public, by and large, is lazy. Intellectually lazy. They quite literally don't want to spend the time and effort necessary to become informed and educated on the issues. They won't read a newspaper if they have a choice to get their "news" in 20-30 second sound bites on TV. Even if they do read the newspaper, most will not take the time to seek out the opposing viewpoint. They (we) by-and-large don't want to put any time and/or effort into discovering the truth behind the sensational headlines. If some guy on TV comes on and describes this horrible, gruesome procedure, they'll buy everything he's saying unquestioningly, because they "saw it on TV".
I'd love to see someone step up and say "I know this procedure is only done 2000 times a year, and I know that most of those are done due to extreme medical circumstances, but I think its an inhumane way to treat a living being and lets work together to find a different way to treat this handful of cases." I'd have great respect for that person. But instead its all shouting and shocking stories and sign waving, leaving the majority of Americans (like the woman who works at the next desk over, in fact) actually believing that the majority of abortions are performed using this procedure.
I just wish for an informed electorate. For people to take more than five seconds to make up their minds on important issues. I don't think that equates me with Rush.
posted by anastasiav at 7:38 AM on November 7, 2003
Fuzz, I think you're misunderstanding me, most likely because of my reference to Fox news.
I'm not saying that everyone who disagrees with me is stupid. What I am saying is that the American public, by and large, is lazy. Intellectually lazy. They quite literally don't want to spend the time and effort necessary to become informed and educated on the issues. They won't read a newspaper if they have a choice to get their "news" in 20-30 second sound bites on TV. Even if they do read the newspaper, most will not take the time to seek out the opposing viewpoint. They (we) by-and-large don't want to put any time and/or effort into discovering the truth behind the sensational headlines. If some guy on TV comes on and describes this horrible, gruesome procedure, they'll buy everything he's saying unquestioningly, because they "saw it on TV".
I'd love to see someone step up and say "I know this procedure is only done 2000 times a year, and I know that most of those are done due to extreme medical circumstances, but I think its an inhumane way to treat a living being and lets work together to find a different way to treat this handful of cases." I'd have great respect for that person. But instead its all shouting and shocking stories and sign waving, leaving the majority of Americans (like the woman who works at the next desk over, in fact) actually believing that the majority of abortions are performed using this procedure.
I just wish for an informed electorate. For people to take more than five seconds to make up their minds on important issues. I don't think that equates me with Rush.
posted by anastasiav at 7:38 AM on November 7, 2003
Amniocentesis is usually performed during the 15th week of pregnancy or later. That's the 4th month. A chromosome result will take 2-3 weeks. A biochemical result or direct genetic (DNA) test may take longer. If the lab work is unreliable, as happened to a friend, the test is repeated. She did not have the results until the 6th month. Some women really don't know they're pregnant until the 3rd month, or even later.
if the mother is in danger, kill the damn baby. I agree.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht Pregnancy and childbirth take place in the woman, and to the woman. If my life is endangered by pregnancy, I don't think I should be forced to host the pregnancy.
It's my experience that pregnancy and childbirth pose significant health risks to the woman. That's one of many reasons why that photo and that law are so offensive. This is actually a pretty civil abortion discussion. Thanks for the link, AaRdVarK.
posted by theora55 at 8:15 AM on November 7, 2003
if the mother is in danger, kill the damn baby. I agree.
posted by Tryptophan-5ht Pregnancy and childbirth take place in the woman, and to the woman. If my life is endangered by pregnancy, I don't think I should be forced to host the pregnancy.
It's my experience that pregnancy and childbirth pose significant health risks to the woman. That's one of many reasons why that photo and that law are so offensive. This is actually a pretty civil abortion discussion. Thanks for the link, AaRdVarK.
posted by theora55 at 8:15 AM on November 7, 2003
The important thing is that rich people are always able to get abortions.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:50 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by gottabefunky at 9:50 AM on November 7, 2003
Sorry if I was a bit harsh, anastasiav, I was wrong to attack you personally. On the other hand, your revised explanation still sounds a lot like "everyone who disagrees with me is lazy and hasn't taken the time to think about the issue like I have", and that in itself seems to me to be a lazy way to think.
I understand that you want intelligent debate and reasonable compromise. That's not possible when you start by caricaturing the other side.
Both sides in the abortion battle have contributed to radicalizing the debate in a general tone of outrage. For every photo you wave of a severely disabled baby dying a painful death, the other side can trot out their photos of disposed late-term fetuses, and that's the end of any possibility of compromise by either side. You may disagree with people who are genuinely outraged by this particular type of abortion (I disagree with them too), but they are just as sincere in their beliefs as those who are outraged by the war in Iraq.
Too many people in this thread are shouting "why do you hate women so much?" rather than trying to understand the other side well enough to find a way to genuinely convince them. Who should stop shouting first?
posted by fuzz at 5:30 PM on November 7, 2003
I understand that you want intelligent debate and reasonable compromise. That's not possible when you start by caricaturing the other side.
Both sides in the abortion battle have contributed to radicalizing the debate in a general tone of outrage. For every photo you wave of a severely disabled baby dying a painful death, the other side can trot out their photos of disposed late-term fetuses, and that's the end of any possibility of compromise by either side. You may disagree with people who are genuinely outraged by this particular type of abortion (I disagree with them too), but they are just as sincere in their beliefs as those who are outraged by the war in Iraq.
Too many people in this thread are shouting "why do you hate women so much?" rather than trying to understand the other side well enough to find a way to genuinely convince them. Who should stop shouting first?
posted by fuzz at 5:30 PM on November 7, 2003
Image of men signing abortion ban assailed. "If we had the money, we'd put it on TV every day from now till the election," says David Seldin of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
posted by onlyconnect at 12:03 PM on November 8, 2003
posted by onlyconnect at 12:03 PM on November 8, 2003
Who should stop shouting first?
The ones who are restricting freedom of access to a medical procedure, who are the ones that lie about the use of this medical procedure, and who will likely never themselves require this procedure.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:08 PM on November 8, 2003
The ones who are restricting freedom of access to a medical procedure, who are the ones that lie about the use of this medical procedure, and who will likely never themselves require this procedure.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:08 PM on November 8, 2003
If we had the money, we'd put it on TV every day from now till the election," says David Seldin of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
...because fallacies are our bread and butter.
Was it bad pr move to not have any women in that picture? Probably. But if we start to suggest that only a woman can sign a bill into law that only affects women, then we might as well give up on reasoning altogether. Only men can decide things for men, women for women, lawyers for laywers, reporters for reporters, zealots for zealots, bigots for bigots, killers for killers, etc. etc. etc.
posted by alethe at 7:56 PM on November 9, 2003
...because fallacies are our bread and butter.
Was it bad pr move to not have any women in that picture? Probably. But if we start to suggest that only a woman can sign a bill into law that only affects women, then we might as well give up on reasoning altogether. Only men can decide things for men, women for women, lawyers for laywers, reporters for reporters, zealots for zealots, bigots for bigots, killers for killers, etc. etc. etc.
posted by alethe at 7:56 PM on November 9, 2003
So are you suggesting that it's best to have old, white, rich men decide public policy for us all?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:44 AM on November 10, 2003
posted by five fresh fish at 10:44 AM on November 10, 2003
As a uterus lacking man, and not being a fetus, my opinion on abortion carries no weight. Nor should yours if you are similarly decribable. Nor should any opinion by any individual who wears a suit and a tie.
That includes Paula Poundstone.
posted by ZachsMind at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2003
That includes Paula Poundstone.
posted by ZachsMind at 11:46 AM on November 10, 2003
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posted by AaRdVarK at 3:49 PM on November 6, 2003