put down that turkey leg, damn it.
November 28, 2003 8:40 AM Subscribe
"The turkey is stuffed with raped women, dead babies, warriors who were stripped of their ability to fight and could no longer protect their families - which to warriors - is a fate worse than death."
Comedian Margaret Cho weighs in on turkey day.
Comedian Margaret Cho weighs in on turkey day.
Margaret Cho goes trolling. Film at 11.
Maggie, go back to the "Munkleberry Wards" jokes, mmmkay?
posted by keswick at 8:55 AM on November 28, 2003
Maggie, go back to the "Munkleberry Wards" jokes, mmmkay?
posted by keswick at 8:55 AM on November 28, 2003
Meh, this whole "the pilgrims should have never come" thing is tired.
posted by jon_kill at 8:58 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by jon_kill at 8:58 AM on November 28, 2003
C'mon, let's face it; it's a good job Thanksgiving doesn't involve any connection to the enslavement of negroes, otherwise your holiday plans would be ruined.
But since it's injuns...
I'm jus' sayin'.
posted by Blue Stone at 9:00 AM on November 28, 2003
But since it's injuns...
I'm jus' sayin'.
posted by Blue Stone at 9:00 AM on November 28, 2003
We have almost all but lost the beautiful religions, language, rituals, legends, the art of friendship and communication with the animals, the way to live peacefully with respect for the motherland.
Then go live in a yurt. Please make sure it's one without Internet access, please.
Can we please all agree not to give Margaret Cho's site another FPP? We all know that it's there now. If I want to smell shit, I'll go stand by a litter box. At least the cat doesn't think it's funny or poignant.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:06 AM on November 28, 2003
Then go live in a yurt. Please make sure it's one without Internet access, please.
Can we please all agree not to give Margaret Cho's site another FPP? We all know that it's there now. If I want to smell shit, I'll go stand by a litter box. At least the cat doesn't think it's funny or poignant.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:06 AM on November 28, 2003
The rant is much funnier when spoken in Cho's "Korean mother" accent. Hilarious!
Also, this shit has already been shat much more artfully by William S. Burroughs.
posted by Ty Webb at 9:12 AM on November 28, 2003
Also, this shit has already been shat much more artfully by William S. Burroughs.
posted by Ty Webb at 9:12 AM on November 28, 2003
You know, if it weren't for the Trail of TearsTM my great-great grandmother would never have been languishing in an orphanage in what it now [smalltown], Indiana and so desparate to get out that she would marry my great-great grandfather who, earlier that month, had immigrated from Prussia and was looking for female labor on his way out to what is now [smalltown], Nebraska where he had dreams of homesteading and fathering a brood that would eventually produce little Fezboy!.
Not that any of this absolves the moran who fronts the $20 nor any of the morans who's viewpoint he represented.
But thanks, anyway, Ms. Cho for reducing a set of serious problems into something so easily dismissed by way of your co-opting them into a silly, profanity-laced pool of logorrhea. And bully for me who managed to treat your screed with more gravity than it deserves.
more coffee. definitely require more coffee.
Oh, on preview, what Ty Webb said.
posted by Fezboy! at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2003
Not that any of this absolves the moran who fronts the $20 nor any of the morans who's viewpoint he represented.
But thanks, anyway, Ms. Cho for reducing a set of serious problems into something so easily dismissed by way of your co-opting them into a silly, profanity-laced pool of logorrhea. And bully for me who managed to treat your screed with more gravity than it deserves.
more coffee. definitely require more coffee.
Oh, on preview, what Ty Webb said.
posted by Fezboy! at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2003
I just find it funny that she spelled ignorance wrong.
posted by krazykity16 at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by krazykity16 at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2003
Except she did it twice so it was probably intentional...
I'm going to shut up now.
posted by krazykity16 at 9:21 AM on November 28, 2003
I'm going to shut up now.
posted by krazykity16 at 9:21 AM on November 28, 2003
this is what happens when celebrities become teachers.
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:24 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:24 AM on November 28, 2003
Although George Washington wrote the first Thanksgiving proclamation, Thanksgiving was finally made a regular national holiday by Abraham Lincoln, in the midst of a brutal civil war. If you read Lincoln's proclamation, there's little there about pilgrims, but a lot about why we need a national day of Thanksgiving. Every year the current President publishes a Thanksgiving proclamation that makes the day an official holiday. If you read the annual proclamation (it's always published in the newspaper), you'll search in vain for references to pilgrims. You can celebrate Thanksgiving and still have problems with the pilgrims. Cho is an idiot.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 9:27 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by peeping_Thomist at 9:27 AM on November 28, 2003
Ha ha America, even your holidays are violent bloodbaths!
posted by sic at 9:30 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by sic at 9:30 AM on November 28, 2003
krazykity16, she did it more than twice. "ignant/ignance", I think she was being ironic.
posted by djeo at 9:32 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by djeo at 9:32 AM on November 28, 2003
Cho, like so many others, wants to hold the modern observance of so many of our holidays to an ancient standard. Yes, atrocities have been committed against the native peoples of this land. Associating the modern holiday of Thanksgiving with events that took place long ago is a fool's task of giving weight to nothing more than a fabrication of a lobbyist during the Lincoln administration.
If you have a problem of how the NAs are portrayed in the schools and on television, as associated with the holiday, then that's another matter. Don't transpose those feelings on those that would gather on the holiday to spend time with family, eat some fantastic grub, and otherwise enjoy themselves with the thoughts that fate has yet again spared them and the ones they love for another year.
If I got enraged over the depictions from which Native Americans suffer every day, I would spend all of my time ranting like Cho. To single out Thanksgiving is just adopting timely and rather limited blinders.
I say all of the above as someone with enough tribal blood to qualify for government assistance, although I've never selected anything but "White" on official forms throughout my life. I'm also a father of 3 who spends an awful lot of time trying to educate my children in the non-whitewashed version of history taught in textbooks today.
posted by thanotopsis at 9:32 AM on November 28, 2003
If you have a problem of how the NAs are portrayed in the schools and on television, as associated with the holiday, then that's another matter. Don't transpose those feelings on those that would gather on the holiday to spend time with family, eat some fantastic grub, and otherwise enjoy themselves with the thoughts that fate has yet again spared them and the ones they love for another year.
If I got enraged over the depictions from which Native Americans suffer every day, I would spend all of my time ranting like Cho. To single out Thanksgiving is just adopting timely and rather limited blinders.
I say all of the above as someone with enough tribal blood to qualify for government assistance, although I've never selected anything but "White" on official forms throughout my life. I'm also a father of 3 who spends an awful lot of time trying to educate my children in the non-whitewashed version of history taught in textbooks today.
posted by thanotopsis at 9:32 AM on November 28, 2003
I for one have no quarrel with our past--my ancestros like the comic lady's came to this country because---well, because it turned out to be a pretty nice place. Lesson now: ever group comes to one place and in so doing drives out, absorbs, or becomes one with those there beforehand.
posted by Postroad at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by Postroad at 9:46 AM on November 28, 2003
Did you know that the first Thanksgiving was a celebration of the triumph of private property and individual initiative?
Well now you do.
posted by hama7 at 9:55 AM on November 28, 2003
Well now you do.
posted by hama7 at 9:55 AM on November 28, 2003
I'd have to say she has a slanted view of history! Ha ha ha!
posted by Stan Chin at 10:00 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by Stan Chin at 10:00 AM on November 28, 2003
Err, I mean.. Anyone who thinks that this is about Pilgrims vs. Indians is reading too many low budget third grade textbooks.
posted by PrinceValium at 10:01 AM on November 28, 2003
I remember the joke of the other Korean comic (I forget his name). He may have been of Korean descent, but he was raised in the deep South.
His joke:
"One day my father and I were hunting in the woods, when this exhausted black man comes running up to us. 'Help!', he says, 'There's a truck full of rednecks chasin' after me!'
" 'Well, sounds like yew inna heap-a trouble, theh, boy!', my father replied."
posted by kablam at 10:10 AM on November 28, 2003
His joke:
"One day my father and I were hunting in the woods, when this exhausted black man comes running up to us. 'Help!', he says, 'There's a truck full of rednecks chasin' after me!'
" 'Well, sounds like yew inna heap-a trouble, theh, boy!', my father replied."
posted by kablam at 10:10 AM on November 28, 2003
We need us some more sophisticated holidays.
If we went somber and downcast on every day that marked a historical atrocity, we'd be somber and downcast every day. If we gave up celebrating our ancestors' ruthless victories, we'd have no holidays left.
Right now, my people (whatever that means, I didn't vote for the fuckers) are on top, and Margaret Cho is absolutely right, they got there by rape, murder, massacre and filth. They learned it from the people who were on top back even further, when it was them on the bottom, raped, murdered, massacred and shat upon. So it has ever been. Show me a people on top and I'll show you a history of atrocity.
Sooner or later, my people will be on the bottom again. Fuck 'em, they deserve it. Rapacious bastards. But I promise you that the people on top then won't get there by being nice.
So here's me, right? I just want to share food with the people I love, recognize with gratitude the things that make my life better than not, and wish the same for everyone. My appallingly vicious ancestors made it possible for me. I can sit in a warm house I didn't have to shed blood to get, eating turkey that I didn't have to murder someone else to afford. My life is one big fat undeserved luxury.
Thanksgiving, Memorial Day. Human beings died to give me what I have, willingly and unwillingly, and I didn't ask them to but here I am. I'd be some kind of asshole not to acknowledge their sacrifice.
So, dead people: probably it wasn't worth it, but I appreciate it. Thank you.
posted by lumpley at 10:10 AM on November 28, 2003
If we went somber and downcast on every day that marked a historical atrocity, we'd be somber and downcast every day. If we gave up celebrating our ancestors' ruthless victories, we'd have no holidays left.
Right now, my people (whatever that means, I didn't vote for the fuckers) are on top, and Margaret Cho is absolutely right, they got there by rape, murder, massacre and filth. They learned it from the people who were on top back even further, when it was them on the bottom, raped, murdered, massacred and shat upon. So it has ever been. Show me a people on top and I'll show you a history of atrocity.
Sooner or later, my people will be on the bottom again. Fuck 'em, they deserve it. Rapacious bastards. But I promise you that the people on top then won't get there by being nice.
So here's me, right? I just want to share food with the people I love, recognize with gratitude the things that make my life better than not, and wish the same for everyone. My appallingly vicious ancestors made it possible for me. I can sit in a warm house I didn't have to shed blood to get, eating turkey that I didn't have to murder someone else to afford. My life is one big fat undeserved luxury.
Thanksgiving, Memorial Day. Human beings died to give me what I have, willingly and unwillingly, and I didn't ask them to but here I am. I'd be some kind of asshole not to acknowledge their sacrifice.
So, dead people: probably it wasn't worth it, but I appreciate it. Thank you.
posted by lumpley at 10:10 AM on November 28, 2003
But she is right, yeah? I mean sure, it's distateful to remind people that our nation was built on genocide, but at least she's not alleging any untruths.
Pass the ignance!
Human beings died to give me what I have
Actually, I think the Natives that died did so beause of the smallpox and bullets. I doubt your comfort was much of a factor.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:14 AM on November 28, 2003
Pass the ignance!
Human beings died to give me what I have
Actually, I think the Natives that died did so beause of the smallpox and bullets. I doubt your comfort was much of a factor.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:14 AM on November 28, 2003
Actually, I think the Natives that died did so beause of the smallpox and bullets. I doubt your comfort was much of a factor.
Heh. I'm positive that not one of them thought of me even once. My gratitude won't make their graves warm.
posted by lumpley at 10:22 AM on November 28, 2003
Heh. I'm positive that not one of them thought of me even once. My gratitude won't make their graves warm.
posted by lumpley at 10:22 AM on November 28, 2003
When I was growing up in the Fifites, all that Indians-give-food-to-the-friendly-discoverers stuff was a big part of the holiday propaganda.
But these days, Thanksgiving is more about celebrating with friends and family, and that's a hell of a lot better holiday than shooting off fake bombs on July 4th or kowtowing to Baby Jesus and Father Capitalism on December 25th. I like a holiday whose primary purpose is to GIVE THANKS dammit, even though it is also an excuse to herd sheeple into the malls like there's no tomorrow.
I'm down with T-day, Halloween, and April Fool's day.
And as Ty Webb said, Burroughs' rant was funnier and at least as true.
posted by kozad at 10:30 AM on November 28, 2003
But these days, Thanksgiving is more about celebrating with friends and family, and that's a hell of a lot better holiday than shooting off fake bombs on July 4th or kowtowing to Baby Jesus and Father Capitalism on December 25th. I like a holiday whose primary purpose is to GIVE THANKS dammit, even though it is also an excuse to herd sheeple into the malls like there's no tomorrow.
I'm down with T-day, Halloween, and April Fool's day.
And as Ty Webb said, Burroughs' rant was funnier and at least as true.
posted by kozad at 10:30 AM on November 28, 2003
Heh. I'm positive that not one of them thought of me even once. My gratitude won't make their graves warm.
Whereas warmly and fuzzily lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future. After all, pretending away history is how you learn from it, right?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:30 AM on November 28, 2003
Whereas warmly and fuzzily lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future. After all, pretending away history is how you learn from it, right?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:30 AM on November 28, 2003
Ignatius, I think you're arguing with someone else.
posted by lumpley at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2003
posted by lumpley at 10:37 AM on November 28, 2003
I mean sure, it's distateful to remind people that our nation was built on genocide, but at least she's not alleging any untruths.
Right, just as Europe and India were physically and especially culturally devastated by the arrival of Steppe People who forced their language and way of life upon the folks who were already there. And then there are those awful, awful Romans who devastated the Picts and Brythonic people when they invaded Britain. And then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes did the same thing.
The history of human existence is the history of culture clash at spear-, and later gunpoint. If you're saddened by the push of Europeans into North America, then in the interest of consistency, you have to be saddened at every other terrible situation that ultimately shaped the world that you live in. No one can possibly be THAT sensitive, so shut up and worry about bad things that happen in the present.
lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future.
Everyone, please promise that if you look out your window and see Congregationalists threatening Native Americans with blunderbusses, you'll politely ask them to stop.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:39 AM on November 28, 2003
Right, just as Europe and India were physically and especially culturally devastated by the arrival of Steppe People who forced their language and way of life upon the folks who were already there. And then there are those awful, awful Romans who devastated the Picts and Brythonic people when they invaded Britain. And then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes did the same thing.
The history of human existence is the history of culture clash at spear-, and later gunpoint. If you're saddened by the push of Europeans into North America, then in the interest of consistency, you have to be saddened at every other terrible situation that ultimately shaped the world that you live in. No one can possibly be THAT sensitive, so shut up and worry about bad things that happen in the present.
lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future.
Everyone, please promise that if you look out your window and see Congregationalists threatening Native Americans with blunderbusses, you'll politely ask them to stop.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:39 AM on November 28, 2003
Thanksgiving is an excuse to get together with family and have a much needed break from work
How sad it is that anyone would need an "excuse" for either of these things.
Cho, like so many others, wants to hold the modern observance of so many of our holidays to an ancient standard.
"Ancient"?!? OMFG
Metafilter: Passing the ignance.
posted by rushmc at 10:48 AM on November 28, 2003
How sad it is that anyone would need an "excuse" for either of these things.
Cho, like so many others, wants to hold the modern observance of so many of our holidays to an ancient standard.
"Ancient"?!? OMFG
Metafilter: Passing the ignance.
posted by rushmc at 10:48 AM on November 28, 2003
Everyone, please promise that if you look out your window and see Congregationalists threatening Native Americans with blunderbusses, you'll politely ask them to stop.
ha ha ha, good one mayor.
I just know you are similarly unimpressed by the Jewish efforts to keep the Holocaust memory alive? You know, to prevent it from ever happening again. What a waste of time....!
posted by sic at 11:50 AM on November 28, 2003
ha ha ha, good one mayor.
I just know you are similarly unimpressed by the Jewish efforts to keep the Holocaust memory alive? You know, to prevent it from ever happening again. What a waste of time....!
posted by sic at 11:50 AM on November 28, 2003
Thanksgiving is an excuse to get together with family and have a much needed break from work.
Perhaps that's true for many Americans, but for many others, Thanksgiving remains an important symbolic holiday. Lots of Catholics make a special point of going to Mass on Thanksgiving, and many people gather for Thanksgiving services and dinners at both religious and secular community centers. For much of America, Thanksgiving is more than an excuse to gather together with family. It's a solemn occasion to come together with others in their community and give thanks to God for the blessings this country enjoys.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 11:52 AM on November 28, 2003
Perhaps that's true for many Americans, but for many others, Thanksgiving remains an important symbolic holiday. Lots of Catholics make a special point of going to Mass on Thanksgiving, and many people gather for Thanksgiving services and dinners at both religious and secular community centers. For much of America, Thanksgiving is more than an excuse to gather together with family. It's a solemn occasion to come together with others in their community and give thanks to God for the blessings this country enjoys.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 11:52 AM on November 28, 2003
The Mohawks celebrated 9 thanksgivings during the Harvest season. The one we celebrate is the last of that series.
Here's the Mohawk Thanksgiving prayer:
There are plenty of moments in our history to be ashamed of. The Mohawks offering food to the colonists is an act of true human grace and compassion, and should be celebrated as such, even if the favor was returned, by our asshole forefathers, with manifest destiny and genocide.
posted by condour75 at 11:54 AM on November 28, 2003
Here's the Mohawk Thanksgiving prayer:
To be a human is an honor, and we offer thanksgiving for all the gifts of life.This holiday's no more about pilgrims than Christmas is about Jesus. It predated the pilgrims, just as Saturnalium predated the Christians, and it's there to provide a common moment in everyone's life, to count blessings. I don't think it's sad that people need holidays to get together with family. I think it's human nature; we lead busy lives, and sometimes it's nice to have a societal prod to say "hey, take a break."
Mother Earth, we thank you for giving us everything we need.
Thank you deep blue waters around Mother Earth, for you are the force that takes thirst away from all living things.
We give thanks to green green grasses that feel so good against our bare feet, for the cool beauty you bring to Mother Earth's floor.
Thank you, good foods from Mother Earth, our life sustainers, for making us happy when we are hungry.
Fruits and berries, we thanks you for your color and sweetness.
We are thankful to good medicine herbs, for healing us when we are sick.
Thank you, all the animals of the world, for keeping our precious forests clean.
All the trees of the world, we are thankful for the shade and warmth you give us. Thank you all the birds in the world, for signing your beautiful songs for all to enjoy.
We give thanks to you gentle Four Winds, for bringing clean air for us to breathe from the four directions.
Thank you, Grandfather Thunder Beings, for bringing rains to help all living things grow.
Elder Brother Sun, we send thanks for shining your light and warming Mother Earth.
Thank you Grandmother Moon, for growing full every month to light the darkness for children and sparkling waters.
We give you thanks, twinkling stars, for making the night sky so beautiful and sprinkling morning dew drops on the plants.
Spirit Protectors of our past and present we thank you for showing us ways to live in peace and harmony with one another.
And most of all, thank you Great Spirit, for giving us all these wonderful gifts, so we will be happy and healthy every day and every night.
There are plenty of moments in our history to be ashamed of. The Mohawks offering food to the colonists is an act of true human grace and compassion, and should be celebrated as such, even if the favor was returned, by our asshole forefathers, with manifest destiny and genocide.
posted by condour75 at 11:54 AM on November 28, 2003
I just know you are similarly unimpressed by the Jewish efforts to keep the Holocaust memory alive?
Jesus H. Christ! Where did that come from? We're discussing the rantings of Margaret Cho. The only way I could even remotely see that analogy working is if Cho were a Native American.
Even then I'd tell her to shut up for trying to equate watching the Lions game with genocide. (Which, by the way, used to be a powerful term but now is mainly indicative that a flake is going to make the Sensible Left look insane by association.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:11 PM on November 28, 2003
Jesus H. Christ! Where did that come from? We're discussing the rantings of Margaret Cho. The only way I could even remotely see that analogy working is if Cho were a Native American.
Even then I'd tell her to shut up for trying to equate watching the Lions game with genocide. (Which, by the way, used to be a powerful term but now is mainly indicative that a flake is going to make the Sensible Left look insane by association.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:11 PM on November 28, 2003
Sorry Margaret. Your people were so displaced and anarchistic that a colonial takeover was relatively easy. If another group of people on ships had the same chance to do it they would have have instead of us.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:24 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:24 PM on November 28, 2003
No, actually we are discussing the connection between Thanksgiving and the revision of history that ignores that the genocide of the native americans ever happened.
To refresh your memory here's Ignatius' comment that you were responding to:
lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future.
and here was your clever response:
Everyone, please promise that if you look out your window and see Congregationalists threatening Native Americans with blunderbusses, you'll politely ask them to stop.
The stupid Cho piece has litttle to do with as far as I can tell.
As far as Thanksgiving goes, I understand that most people don't celebrate it for the revisionist reasons that many were fed as a children, but to deny that revisionism exists, or worse, just laugh at that particular part of history.... Well, lets just say that no lessons will be learned from it.
posted by sic at 12:25 PM on November 28, 2003
To refresh your memory here's Ignatius' comment that you were responding to:
lying to ourselves about history is sure to prevent similar atrocities in the future.
and here was your clever response:
Everyone, please promise that if you look out your window and see Congregationalists threatening Native Americans with blunderbusses, you'll politely ask them to stop.
The stupid Cho piece has litttle to do with as far as I can tell.
As far as Thanksgiving goes, I understand that most people don't celebrate it for the revisionist reasons that many were fed as a children, but to deny that revisionism exists, or worse, just laugh at that particular part of history.... Well, lets just say that no lessons will be learned from it.
posted by sic at 12:25 PM on November 28, 2003
By the way, my analogy stands only if you give the same importance to the genocide of the native americans as you do to the holocaust. If not, my bad
(he said ironically).
posted by sic at 12:27 PM on November 28, 2003
(he said ironically).
posted by sic at 12:27 PM on November 28, 2003
Look at it this way: At least your people weren't taken over by the spanish and used as slaves while they stole your statues and jewelry for gold.
What? Oh. That sucks.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2003
What? Oh. That sucks.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2003
hey curley: IT'S THE LIES, STUPID.
now go back to your assinine football game.
posted by quonsar at 12:38 PM on November 28, 2003
now go back to your assinine football game.
posted by quonsar at 12:38 PM on November 28, 2003
Sic, your analogy only stands if the execution of Native Americans was systematic, not incidental. The motives involved were so different as to not be compatible.
Ascribing malicious motivations to the Puritans is just as short-sighted as telling kids that the Native Americans were friends. Killing people because they were in the way is horrible, but it's a result of indifference not hate.
Dead, of course, is dead, so this argument is teetering on the edge of stupid, but I'm going to follow it because I'm fine with that on a lazy day.
What I take exception to is the depiction of the Massachusetts Bay puritans as evil instead of ignorant. You want to charge them with Murder One when they're guilty of Manslaughter.
Also, and this is important, why does everyone who wants to paint Puritans as terrible, scheming murderers, think that they had an advanced knowledge of virology? Did they somehow use 17th century containment labs to stockpile smallpox serum in Holland in the knowledge that it would kill the Indians? Do you think that read "War of the Worlds" and said "there's something we can use?"
(Blah, blah, General Amherst etc.-- that was much later)
(This is all besides the obivous idiocy of trying to guilt people over a holiday that has no connection save name to the incidents in question.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:58 PM on November 28, 2003
Ascribing malicious motivations to the Puritans is just as short-sighted as telling kids that the Native Americans were friends. Killing people because they were in the way is horrible, but it's a result of indifference not hate.
Dead, of course, is dead, so this argument is teetering on the edge of stupid, but I'm going to follow it because I'm fine with that on a lazy day.
What I take exception to is the depiction of the Massachusetts Bay puritans as evil instead of ignorant. You want to charge them with Murder One when they're guilty of Manslaughter.
Also, and this is important, why does everyone who wants to paint Puritans as terrible, scheming murderers, think that they had an advanced knowledge of virology? Did they somehow use 17th century containment labs to stockpile smallpox serum in Holland in the knowledge that it would kill the Indians? Do you think that read "War of the Worlds" and said "there's something we can use?"
(Blah, blah, General Amherst etc.-- that was much later)
(This is all besides the obivous idiocy of trying to guilt people over a holiday that has no connection save name to the incidents in question.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:58 PM on November 28, 2003
(and before anyone questions it: yes, I have a Massachusetts Bay Colony pedigree and my grandparents were in the Winthrop Society and I think that William Brewster shat soft-serve ice cream. So what? I like to think that I'd feel the same way regardless.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by Mayor Curley at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2003
I thought margaret cho was parodying people who politicize giving thanks day - "the turkey is stuffed with raped women"? How can that be taken to seriously question the holiday? The turkey is generally stuffed with stale bread...
anyway, yeah, people are jerks, but this is just a harvest celebration. It's not a bad thing to put aside a day as a group to appreciate what we have. Fasting on thanksgiving isn't a terrible idea, though, or at least fasting today, rather than shopping. it's too bad this holiday has become about corporate floats, silly games, getting fat, and spending disposable income, because it really symbolizes reflection and connection and feeling grateful for the good things in our lives.
posted by mdn at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2003
anyway, yeah, people are jerks, but this is just a harvest celebration. It's not a bad thing to put aside a day as a group to appreciate what we have. Fasting on thanksgiving isn't a terrible idea, though, or at least fasting today, rather than shopping. it's too bad this holiday has become about corporate floats, silly games, getting fat, and spending disposable income, because it really symbolizes reflection and connection and feeling grateful for the good things in our lives.
posted by mdn at 1:06 PM on November 28, 2003
Let's be clear about what we are arguing here, mayor. I agree 100% that to blame the Puritans for bringing diseases to the Native Americans is unfair, they had no idea. But to say that America is not built on the systematic genocide of the native americans is, it's that revisionism word again. Just because they weren't as efficient as the nazis doesn't mean it wasn't planned and executed with premeditation. The US army slaughtered native american men women and children, that is a fact. What we will never know is just how many. You can rest assured that they started blasting away in terror anytime those godless naked heathens came near them. Or at least when they were sure that they could kill them without being killed first...
Now this isn't strictly the Pilgrims, of course, but those terrified, humorless, witch burning freaks were definitely the first wave of the slaughter to come. And the pilgrims didn't just kill by accidently sweating bacteria all over the place you know.
What rankles about the propaganda that I'm sure each and every american in the room has heard in their childhood, is that it paints such a cheerful picture of what was a bloody and genocidal and yes systematic process.
posted by sic at 1:23 PM on November 28, 2003
Now this isn't strictly the Pilgrims, of course, but those terrified, humorless, witch burning freaks were definitely the first wave of the slaughter to come. And the pilgrims didn't just kill by accidently sweating bacteria all over the place you know.
What rankles about the propaganda that I'm sure each and every american in the room has heard in their childhood, is that it paints such a cheerful picture of what was a bloody and genocidal and yes systematic process.
posted by sic at 1:23 PM on November 28, 2003
edit/
You can rest assured that the Pilgrims started blasting away.....
posted by sic at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2003
You can rest assured that the Pilgrims started blasting away.....
posted by sic at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2003
sic, why don't you start making amends by giving all your material possessions to the nearest tribe and taking the next boat back to europe?
posted by keswick at 1:26 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by keswick at 1:26 PM on November 28, 2003
why don't you start making amends by giving all your material possessions to the nearest tribe and taking the next boat back to europe?
keswick, why don't you address the topic of discussion instead of irrelevant items you chose at random? you see, as sic pointed out, it's the revision of history under discussion, not material possessions, not making amends, not going back to europe.
posted by quonsar at 1:57 PM on November 28, 2003
keswick, why don't you address the topic of discussion instead of irrelevant items you chose at random? you see, as sic pointed out, it's the revision of history under discussion, not material possessions, not making amends, not going back to europe.
posted by quonsar at 1:57 PM on November 28, 2003
it's the revision of history under discussion
Recent presidential Thanksgiving proclamations, recent federally funded research on American history, and contemporary curricula at public middle schools and high schools, are not revisionist. Elementary schoolers still dress up as pilgrims and indians, but the focus is primarily on the generosity of the indians in welcoming the pilgrims to this land.
So where exactly is the revisionism you and others are talking about?
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:08 PM on November 28, 2003
Recent presidential Thanksgiving proclamations, recent federally funded research on American history, and contemporary curricula at public middle schools and high schools, are not revisionist. Elementary schoolers still dress up as pilgrims and indians, but the focus is primarily on the generosity of the indians in welcoming the pilgrims to this land.
So where exactly is the revisionism you and others are talking about?
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:08 PM on November 28, 2003
But who'll think of the Carthaginians?!?! Oh god, their ghosts keep me awake at night, ridden with guilt and angst over my role in their brutal defeat!!
posted by aramaic at 2:34 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by aramaic at 2:34 PM on November 28, 2003
quonsar, I have some kids still in elementary school, and I just sat them down and asked them to tell me everything they learned about Thanksgiving at school. From what I can tell, they were presented with a description of how the Pilgrims came to America, and how the first Thanksgiving came to be. They even learned that the reason one of the indians knew English and could communicate with the Pilgrims was that he had earlier been kidnapped (by English speaking pirates? I didn't get a clear story about that) and had escaped.
None of my kids in elementary school had picked up the impression that the pilgrims and indians lived happily ever after, or that the pilgrims were heros.
I don't see what your complaint is.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:35 PM on November 28, 2003
None of my kids in elementary school had picked up the impression that the pilgrims and indians lived happily ever after, or that the pilgrims were heros.
I don't see what your complaint is.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:35 PM on November 28, 2003
John Wayne! Now THERE was a man with a horn of plenty!
</flaming>
posted by sharpener at 3:17 PM on November 28, 2003
</flaming>
posted by sharpener at 3:17 PM on November 28, 2003
Did you know that the first Thanksgiving was a celebration of the triumph of private property and individual initiative?
All the more reason not to celebrate it. If there's two things this goddamned country needs a hell of a lot less of, it's personal property and individual initiative.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:03 PM on November 28, 2003
All the more reason not to celebrate it. If there's two things this goddamned country needs a hell of a lot less of, it's personal property and individual initiative.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:03 PM on November 28, 2003
Sic: I agree 100% that to blame the Puritans for bringing diseases to the Native Americans is unfair
Actually, there was this one part where the early colonists traded blankets that had been used by smallpox patients to the natives in an attempt to wipe out whole tribes.
Here http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9307/0015.html are some sources.
They did know enough about how to transmit deadly diseases to engage in simple biological warfare.
posted by yoz420 at 4:51 PM on November 28, 2003
Actually, there was this one part where the early colonists traded blankets that had been used by smallpox patients to the natives in an attempt to wipe out whole tribes.
Here http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9307/0015.html are some sources.
They did know enough about how to transmit deadly diseases to engage in simple biological warfare.
posted by yoz420 at 4:51 PM on November 28, 2003
Yoz420-
That was done 150 years AFTER the Puritans settled, by General Amherst. I alluded to it earlier.
Of course, Amherst was white, so we can probably just lump him in with the Puritans. Or we can just assume that the knowledge level of Europeans was static until say, 1910, and if Amherst knew the principles of contageous diseases then the Puritans did too.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:24 PM on November 28, 2003
That was done 150 years AFTER the Puritans settled, by General Amherst. I alluded to it earlier.
Of course, Amherst was white, so we can probably just lump him in with the Puritans. Or we can just assume that the knowledge level of Europeans was static until say, 1910, and if Amherst knew the principles of contageous diseases then the Puritans did too.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:24 PM on November 28, 2003
Mayor Curley: Of course, Amherst was white, so we can probably just lump him in with the Puritans
Huh? Probably OK to lump him in with the people that took part in the genocide of the Native Americans, though, don't you think? This thread is about them, after all, so that should be OK. Actually, that guy can be the core of that lump. He can be the little brown nugget around which the rest of the lump forms, no? Can he still be a brown nugget even though he was white? Or is that also a semantic incongruity which you will not abide?
posted by yoz420 at 6:06 PM on November 28, 2003
Huh? Probably OK to lump him in with the people that took part in the genocide of the Native Americans, though, don't you think? This thread is about them, after all, so that should be OK. Actually, that guy can be the core of that lump. He can be the little brown nugget around which the rest of the lump forms, no? Can he still be a brown nugget even though he was white? Or is that also a semantic incongruity which you will not abide?
posted by yoz420 at 6:06 PM on November 28, 2003
yoz420, I thought this thread was about the supposed illegitimacy of Thanksgiving as a holiday, because the first Thanksgiving has been misrepresented. What are you talking about?
posted by peeping_Thomist at 6:47 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by peeping_Thomist at 6:47 PM on November 28, 2003
Yoz420-
Semantics? Little brown lumps? Tell you what, Yoz-- tomorrow afternoon, when you're not as high as you are now, do your best to explain to me what you were thinking when you wrote this.
Taking one little bit of my comment and running incoherently with it is a VERY weak diversionary tactic. You ascribed the actions of a mid 18th century historical figure to people of the early 17th century and I called you on it. Please tell us what connection General Amherst and his infected blankets have to the Puritans except geography.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:07 PM on November 28, 2003
Semantics? Little brown lumps? Tell you what, Yoz-- tomorrow afternoon, when you're not as high as you are now, do your best to explain to me what you were thinking when you wrote this.
Taking one little bit of my comment and running incoherently with it is a VERY weak diversionary tactic. You ascribed the actions of a mid 18th century historical figure to people of the early 17th century and I called you on it. Please tell us what connection General Amherst and his infected blankets have to the Puritans except geography.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:07 PM on November 28, 2003
Also, explain why a link to a UseNet post should be taken at face value as a reliable source of information for anything.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:08 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:08 PM on November 28, 2003
quonsar, I have some kids still in elementary school, and I just sat them down and asked them to tell me everything they learned about Thanksgiving at school. From what I can tell, they were presented with a description of how the Pilgrims came to America, and how the first Thanksgiving came to be.
My objection is with the teaching of these simplistic myths even to elementary school students. Why not teach them instead about Lincoln's proclamation? To me its less about revisionism than about selective memory. As James Loewen writes:
Starting the story of America's settlement with the Pilgrims leaves out not only the Indians but also the Spanish. The first non-native Settlers ... were African slaves left in South Carolina in 1526. Our first pilgrims ... were Spanish Jews who settled in New Mexico in the late 1500s. The Spanish introduced horses, cattle, sheep, pigs and the basic elements of cowboy culture, including its vocabulary: mustang, bronco, rodeo, lariat etc. Horses that escaped from the Spanish ... triggered the rapid flowering of a new culture among the Plains Indians.
"How refreshing it would be" wrote James Axtell "to find a textbook that began on the west coast before treating the traditional eastern colonies"
Beginning the story in 1620 also omits the Dutch who were living in what is now New Albany by 1614. Indeed, 1620 is not even the date of the first permament British settlement, for in 1607, the London company sent settlers to Jamestown, Virginia.
No matter. The mythic origin ...is at Plymouth Rock and the year is 1620
posted by vacapinta at 7:25 PM on November 28, 2003
My objection is with the teaching of these simplistic myths even to elementary school students. Why not teach them instead about Lincoln's proclamation? To me its less about revisionism than about selective memory. As James Loewen writes:
Starting the story of America's settlement with the Pilgrims leaves out not only the Indians but also the Spanish. The first non-native Settlers ... were African slaves left in South Carolina in 1526. Our first pilgrims ... were Spanish Jews who settled in New Mexico in the late 1500s. The Spanish introduced horses, cattle, sheep, pigs and the basic elements of cowboy culture, including its vocabulary: mustang, bronco, rodeo, lariat etc. Horses that escaped from the Spanish ... triggered the rapid flowering of a new culture among the Plains Indians.
"How refreshing it would be" wrote James Axtell "to find a textbook that began on the west coast before treating the traditional eastern colonies"
Beginning the story in 1620 also omits the Dutch who were living in what is now New Albany by 1614. Indeed, 1620 is not even the date of the first permament British settlement, for in 1607, the London company sent settlers to Jamestown, Virginia.
No matter. The mythic origin ...is at Plymouth Rock and the year is 1620
posted by vacapinta at 7:25 PM on November 28, 2003
It's funny how jingoistic insanity can grip a populous in a little more than a decade.
Look what they were writing about Dances With Wolves" back in 1990.
The dominant American culture was nearsighted, incurious and racist, and saw the Indians as a race of ignorant, thieving savages, fit to be shot on sight. Such attitudes survived until so recently in our society - just look at the B Westerns of the 1940s - that we can only imagine how much worse they were 100 years ago. In a sense, "Dances With Wolves" is a sentimental fantasy, a "what if" movie that imagines a world in which whites were genuinely interested in learning about a Native American culture that lived more closely in harmony with the natural world than any other before or since. But our knowledge of how things turned out - of how the Indians were driven from their lands by genocide and theft - casts a sad shadow over everything.
How enlightened we've become in just 13 short years! Luckily, you could never get a film like that made today. Remember how you felt when you left that theater back in 1990 with this gripping line resonating in your mind?
Dances With Wolves, I am Wind in His Hair. Do you see that you are my friend? Can you see that I will always be your friend?
We're looking forward to the day no one can ever have that feeling again.
We're America for Christ's sake.
posted by crasspastor at 9:26 PM on November 28, 2003
Look what they were writing about Dances With Wolves" back in 1990.
The dominant American culture was nearsighted, incurious and racist, and saw the Indians as a race of ignorant, thieving savages, fit to be shot on sight. Such attitudes survived until so recently in our society - just look at the B Westerns of the 1940s - that we can only imagine how much worse they were 100 years ago. In a sense, "Dances With Wolves" is a sentimental fantasy, a "what if" movie that imagines a world in which whites were genuinely interested in learning about a Native American culture that lived more closely in harmony with the natural world than any other before or since. But our knowledge of how things turned out - of how the Indians were driven from their lands by genocide and theft - casts a sad shadow over everything.
How enlightened we've become in just 13 short years! Luckily, you could never get a film like that made today. Remember how you felt when you left that theater back in 1990 with this gripping line resonating in your mind?
Dances With Wolves, I am Wind in His Hair. Do you see that you are my friend? Can you see that I will always be your friend?
We're looking forward to the day no one can ever have that feeling again.
We're America for Christ's sake.
posted by crasspastor at 9:26 PM on November 28, 2003
it's too bad this holiday has become about corporate floats, silly games, getting fat, and spending disposable income
Don't be silly. Thanksgiving is about making duty visits to your dysfunctional family and leaving mildly traumatized and thoroughly reminded of why you left home.
posted by jonmc at 9:31 PM on November 28, 2003
Don't be silly. Thanksgiving is about making duty visits to your dysfunctional family and leaving mildly traumatized and thoroughly reminded of why you left home.
posted by jonmc at 9:31 PM on November 28, 2003
Sic, your analogy only stands if the execution of Native Americans was systematic, not incidental. The motives involved were so different as to not be compatible.
You mean like those smallpox-infested blankets they passed around to keep everyone warm? Too much tryptophan? ;)
posted by The God Complex at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2003
You mean like those smallpox-infested blankets they passed around to keep everyone warm? Too much tryptophan? ;)
posted by The God Complex at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2003
Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Sand Creek massacre, btw.
posted by homunculus at 10:26 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by homunculus at 10:26 PM on November 28, 2003
So, what's with her and her big gay following? It's not like she even sings or wears sparkle dresses or anything.
posted by HTuttle at 10:30 PM on November 28, 2003
posted by HTuttle at 10:30 PM on November 28, 2003
I think the damage done by warm and fuzzy ahistorical half-truths is made abundantly clear when people actually suggest that the "extermination" of the American Indians was anything other than systematic. What about the Plains Wars? Systematic enough for ya? Yeesh. I think I've spotted some posters who haven't spent much time in Indian Country.
In a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with kids thinking that some happy buckle-shoed Dutchmen stumbled onto the shores of ManifestDestinyLand, shivered a bit, and then had a nice meal with some of the scattered red folk who didn't have their shit together enough to properly, well, manifest the right destiny, all before spreading the seeds of freedom from sea to shining sea. But along with all the other crap they teach kids in school, the reality of genocide gets downplayed or outright omitted, as does the entire fucking point of learning about history, incidentally.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:37 PM on November 28, 2003
In a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with kids thinking that some happy buckle-shoed Dutchmen stumbled onto the shores of ManifestDestinyLand, shivered a bit, and then had a nice meal with some of the scattered red folk who didn't have their shit together enough to properly, well, manifest the right destiny, all before spreading the seeds of freedom from sea to shining sea. But along with all the other crap they teach kids in school, the reality of genocide gets downplayed or outright omitted, as does the entire fucking point of learning about history, incidentally.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 10:37 PM on November 28, 2003
Sorry Margaret. Your people were so displaced and anarchistic that a colonial takeover was relatively easy.
I'm not sure if that's a dig against Koreans, or a dig against Americans, or just a random senseless brainfart. If #1, er, what? If #2, OK, then. If #3, well, OK, then.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:01 AM on November 29, 2003
I'm not sure if that's a dig against Koreans, or a dig against Americans, or just a random senseless brainfart. If #1, er, what? If #2, OK, then. If #3, well, OK, then.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:01 AM on November 29, 2003
You mean like those smallpox-infested blankets they passed around to keep everyone warm? Too much tryptophan?
Third time's a charm. Actually, I addressed the issue of timing in the same comment.
Thought you saw a weakness and jumped, eh? ;)
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:04 AM on November 29, 2003
Third time's a charm. Actually, I addressed the issue of timing in the same comment.
Thought you saw a weakness and jumped, eh? ;)
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:04 AM on November 29, 2003
Ignatius J. Reilly:
What about the Plains Wars? Systematic enough for ya?
You're blaming the Puritans for that, too? Because that's clearly who I was referencing when I said "not systematic."
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:09 AM on November 29, 2003
What about the Plains Wars? Systematic enough for ya?
You're blaming the Puritans for that, too? Because that's clearly who I was referencing when I said "not systematic."
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:09 AM on November 29, 2003
Quite a few Native Americans fast on Thanksgiving, especially AIM members and local New England Wampanoags and Abnaki descendants. In the 1980s there used to be an annual silent protest at the Plymouth Rock Celebrations - New England Indians used to gather to stand on a Hill overlooking the Pilgrim ceremonies and stand with their backs to the proceedings.
The single largest cause of Native AMerican depopulation in the 1600s - especially in New England - was disease. the Indians simply had no immunity to poxes and flus that Europeans had become accustomed to. The ripple effect was a chaotic period of Native history that lead to migrations, wars, and in many cases in New England, slavery or social extinction.
Concerning the Massachusett Indians, " three separate epidemics... swept across New England between 1614 and 1617 destroying 3/4 of the original native population. During the same period, unidentified rival tribes from the north attacked the Massachuset villages. In 1620 the Pilgrims found most of the Massachuset villages in the region were empty and only recently abandoned. When the first Puritans settled at Boston in 1629, only 500 Massachuset were left in the immediate area, and smallpox killed many of these in 1633."
One of the least known historic tsunamis of the period was the "Beaver Wars." Colonial demand for furs led to expansionist wars between the Iroquois, Huron, and Algonkian tribes, who roamed farther afield for furs, exposing more remote tribes to western disease. The shamans associated disease with totem animals. Since no shamanic cure could be effected, the shamans decided that the beavers, the only animal that could speak all the animal languages, had for some unknown reason, conspired among the animal world to throw all diseases against the human race at once. So the only response was to acquire guns from the whites, and go out and kill more beavers, which got you more guns and made your tribe go farther afield to get more beavers, infecting even more remote populations. The result was a complete transformation of Native American society east of the Mississippi.
It lasted more than fifty years and killed on a scale comparable to the Jewish Holocaust.
Sure, it's nice to have dinner with your family, and Margaret Cho is a raving knee-jerk. But there is a lot of history behind the thanksgiving holiday scenes that is far from celebratory.
posted by zaelic at 5:37 AM on November 29, 2003
The single largest cause of Native AMerican depopulation in the 1600s - especially in New England - was disease. the Indians simply had no immunity to poxes and flus that Europeans had become accustomed to. The ripple effect was a chaotic period of Native history that lead to migrations, wars, and in many cases in New England, slavery or social extinction.
Concerning the Massachusett Indians, " three separate epidemics... swept across New England between 1614 and 1617 destroying 3/4 of the original native population. During the same period, unidentified rival tribes from the north attacked the Massachuset villages. In 1620 the Pilgrims found most of the Massachuset villages in the region were empty and only recently abandoned. When the first Puritans settled at Boston in 1629, only 500 Massachuset were left in the immediate area, and smallpox killed many of these in 1633."
One of the least known historic tsunamis of the period was the "Beaver Wars." Colonial demand for furs led to expansionist wars between the Iroquois, Huron, and Algonkian tribes, who roamed farther afield for furs, exposing more remote tribes to western disease. The shamans associated disease with totem animals. Since no shamanic cure could be effected, the shamans decided that the beavers, the only animal that could speak all the animal languages, had for some unknown reason, conspired among the animal world to throw all diseases against the human race at once. So the only response was to acquire guns from the whites, and go out and kill more beavers, which got you more guns and made your tribe go farther afield to get more beavers, infecting even more remote populations. The result was a complete transformation of Native American society east of the Mississippi.
It lasted more than fifty years and killed on a scale comparable to the Jewish Holocaust.
Sure, it's nice to have dinner with your family, and Margaret Cho is a raving knee-jerk. But there is a lot of history behind the thanksgiving holiday scenes that is far from celebratory.
posted by zaelic at 5:37 AM on November 29, 2003
"Founded in 1769 by the descendants of the Pilgrims, the Old Colony Club (a social organization dedicated to civic and self-improvement and commemorations honoring the accomplishments of their ancestors) was opened only to "respectable" young Mayflower offspring; the organization added a clause to its bylaws forbidding members to mix with the company of the town's taverns" Forefather's Day - it's not for everyone!
posted by zaelic at 6:27 AM on November 29, 2003
posted by zaelic at 6:27 AM on November 29, 2003
Mayor Curly, I suspect that you are purposely ignoring what this discussion has become, so as not to have to ever listen to the true history of America. The Puritans came, did some bad things to the indians and to themselves (A WITCH!! A WITCH!!), then came the endless wave of european settlers that was followed by an increasingly systematic elimination of the inalienable rights of the indians, most importantly the right to exist. This was slaughter on a scale never before seen on the continent. True the Puritans were not the sole cause of what became genocide, but they were the first step, consciously or not.
Thanksgiving, while it has morphed into something else for most people, still represents a disneyfication of the truly grotesque results of the founding of America, that is still taught in primary schools "from sea to shining sea" as somebody said earlier. One of the major figures in that myth is the Puritan, the other of course is the "welcoming" indian.
Does this mean that other slaughters haven't happened over the course of history? Of course not, I don't even understand why somebody would bring up this point, but it has been brought up repeatedly in this thread (as a justification for what exactly?). The important point, in my opinion, is that not only did (yet another) this slaughter take place, but that it is one of the most downplayed human tragedies of recorded history. So downplayed that most Americans are unaware of how ironic linking "Thanksgiving" to such a hideous thing.
I agree with somebody who said that linking it to Lincoln's call for national unity would be much more positive and less misleading.
posted by sic at 7:04 AM on November 29, 2003
Thanksgiving, while it has morphed into something else for most people, still represents a disneyfication of the truly grotesque results of the founding of America, that is still taught in primary schools "from sea to shining sea" as somebody said earlier. One of the major figures in that myth is the Puritan, the other of course is the "welcoming" indian.
Does this mean that other slaughters haven't happened over the course of history? Of course not, I don't even understand why somebody would bring up this point, but it has been brought up repeatedly in this thread (as a justification for what exactly?). The important point, in my opinion, is that not only did (yet another) this slaughter take place, but that it is one of the most downplayed human tragedies of recorded history. So downplayed that most Americans are unaware of how ironic linking "Thanksgiving" to such a hideous thing.
I agree with somebody who said that linking it to Lincoln's call for national unity would be much more positive and less misleading.
posted by sic at 7:04 AM on November 29, 2003
This is going to make me appear to be a smug, self-righteous conservative (but I'm not really a conservative):
Know what? I do give thanks on Thanksgiving for the Puritans coming here and toughing it out and doing whatever they needed to survive. My existence is made possible by the fact that a group of people left southern England and settled Plymouth and then Boston. If my ancestors hadn't left Plymouth and Dorchester, circumstances would have been very different with regards to subsequent generations and I wouldn't be here to type this. So I feel justified in giving thanks to those long-dead people who made it possible for me to enjoy this neat life that I have.
As for the disease and broken promises that the Native Americans got, I've made a half-hearted show of saying "yeah, it was awful," but I don't really care. History is always painful for the losers. No matter how many cases I list of wanton destruction brought by folks with superior technology, someone's going to insist that this case is special. It isn't. North America wasn't going to be left as a museum to Stone Age people-- the settling was inevitable and someone had to get displaced. I'm glad that the Puritans won. As Malcolm X said: "By any means necessary."
[As for the reference to the witch hunts: don't trash that. It worked. We don't have real witches here anymore.]
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:53 AM on November 29, 2003
Know what? I do give thanks on Thanksgiving for the Puritans coming here and toughing it out and doing whatever they needed to survive. My existence is made possible by the fact that a group of people left southern England and settled Plymouth and then Boston. If my ancestors hadn't left Plymouth and Dorchester, circumstances would have been very different with regards to subsequent generations and I wouldn't be here to type this. So I feel justified in giving thanks to those long-dead people who made it possible for me to enjoy this neat life that I have.
As for the disease and broken promises that the Native Americans got, I've made a half-hearted show of saying "yeah, it was awful," but I don't really care. History is always painful for the losers. No matter how many cases I list of wanton destruction brought by folks with superior technology, someone's going to insist that this case is special. It isn't. North America wasn't going to be left as a museum to Stone Age people-- the settling was inevitable and someone had to get displaced. I'm glad that the Puritans won. As Malcolm X said: "By any means necessary."
[As for the reference to the witch hunts: don't trash that. It worked. We don't have real witches here anymore.]
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:53 AM on November 29, 2003
linking it to Lincoln's call for national unity would be much more positive and less misleading.
If you go back and read through the presidential Thanksgiving proclamations since Lincoln instituted the holiday, you won't find much in the way of Pilgrim fetishizing. Every year before Thanksgiving dinner, my family reads aloud Lincoln's proclamation and the current President's proclamation. Then we say grace and eat. Margaret Cho is full of shit.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 8:08 AM on November 29, 2003
If you go back and read through the presidential Thanksgiving proclamations since Lincoln instituted the holiday, you won't find much in the way of Pilgrim fetishizing. Every year before Thanksgiving dinner, my family reads aloud Lincoln's proclamation and the current President's proclamation. Then we say grace and eat. Margaret Cho is full of shit.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 8:08 AM on November 29, 2003
North America wasn't going to be left as a museum to Stone Age people-- the settling was inevitable and someone had to get displaced.
Again you are willfully missing the point, but thats what smug, self-righteous conservatives tend to do.
To clarify, nobody is saying that the continent should be left as a "museum to stone age people", this is a made up debate, as useless as the endless pointing out that History is filled with injustice. The point being made, the one that you refuse to confront directly, is that Thanksgiving is largely based on a misrepresentation of history. Nobody is demanding reparations, only recognition. Maybe the President doesn't talk about the Pilgrims and Indians anymore, as peeping_Thomist says, but they still do in grammar school, where the children are at an age when these types of myths can really set in for an uncurious lifetime. What I mean is that most people stick to this childish disneyfied myth, or make up new ones, so that they don't have to even think about for a split second, let alone recognize the fact that a genocide is at the very foundation of the history of the United States.
Anyway, I already knew that you didn't care about the genocide of the Indians, that has been obvious from your first post, but I find it gratifying that this discussion has made you overcome your fear of truthfulness, that at least you are finally admitting out loud who you are and where you stand, instead of cowardly hiding behind the idea that Thanksgiving doesn't have anything to do with anything except eating turkey and watching TV.
posted by sic at 8:33 AM on November 29, 2003
Again you are willfully missing the point, but thats what smug, self-righteous conservatives tend to do.
To clarify, nobody is saying that the continent should be left as a "museum to stone age people", this is a made up debate, as useless as the endless pointing out that History is filled with injustice. The point being made, the one that you refuse to confront directly, is that Thanksgiving is largely based on a misrepresentation of history. Nobody is demanding reparations, only recognition. Maybe the President doesn't talk about the Pilgrims and Indians anymore, as peeping_Thomist says, but they still do in grammar school, where the children are at an age when these types of myths can really set in for an uncurious lifetime. What I mean is that most people stick to this childish disneyfied myth, or make up new ones, so that they don't have to even think about for a split second, let alone recognize the fact that a genocide is at the very foundation of the history of the United States.
Anyway, I already knew that you didn't care about the genocide of the Indians, that has been obvious from your first post, but I find it gratifying that this discussion has made you overcome your fear of truthfulness, that at least you are finally admitting out loud who you are and where you stand, instead of cowardly hiding behind the idea that Thanksgiving doesn't have anything to do with anything except eating turkey and watching TV.
posted by sic at 8:33 AM on November 29, 2003
What I mean is that most people stick to this childish disneyfied myth, or make up new ones, so that they don't have to even think about for a split second.
sic, that's just not right. Public schools today do an admirable job of dealing honestly with American history, including the genocidal aspects of it. Furthermore, even in elementary schools, children are not taught that the pilgrims were heroes or that the indians and pilgrims all lived together happily ever after. Children are taught that the reason one of the indians spoke English was that he had earlier been kidnapped and had escaped. They learn that the pigrims came to America (which is true), endured a hard first year (which is true), and, together with some indians, gave thanks to God for having survived. Which is all true.
At my kids' public elementary school, students read Lincoln's Thanksgiving proclamation aloud, and discuss the civil war. They also know that there are serious problems with America's history with the indians. From the tone of your post, I get the impression that you don't have any clear idea of what's taught at your local public elementary school, let alone in middle school and high school.
The first Thanksgiving remains a potent symbol both of what was (bedraggled pilgrims who barely survived their first year here but remained grateful to God for the blessings they had received) and what might have been but wasn't (europeans and indians living together amicably). By itself, however, that symbol would not be an adequate basis for a national holiday. As re-founded by Lincoln, however, Thanksgiving is an honorable national holiday, and does not deserve the abuse you and others (especially the execrably ill-informed Cho -- just read some of her other rants and attend to the disordered character of her mental furniture) are heaping on it.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 10:24 AM on November 29, 2003
sic, that's just not right. Public schools today do an admirable job of dealing honestly with American history, including the genocidal aspects of it. Furthermore, even in elementary schools, children are not taught that the pilgrims were heroes or that the indians and pilgrims all lived together happily ever after. Children are taught that the reason one of the indians spoke English was that he had earlier been kidnapped and had escaped. They learn that the pigrims came to America (which is true), endured a hard first year (which is true), and, together with some indians, gave thanks to God for having survived. Which is all true.
At my kids' public elementary school, students read Lincoln's Thanksgiving proclamation aloud, and discuss the civil war. They also know that there are serious problems with America's history with the indians. From the tone of your post, I get the impression that you don't have any clear idea of what's taught at your local public elementary school, let alone in middle school and high school.
The first Thanksgiving remains a potent symbol both of what was (bedraggled pilgrims who barely survived their first year here but remained grateful to God for the blessings they had received) and what might have been but wasn't (europeans and indians living together amicably). By itself, however, that symbol would not be an adequate basis for a national holiday. As re-founded by Lincoln, however, Thanksgiving is an honorable national holiday, and does not deserve the abuse you and others (especially the execrably ill-informed Cho -- just read some of her other rants and attend to the disordered character of her mental furniture) are heaping on it.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 10:24 AM on November 29, 2003
peeping_Thomist, thanks for your input, and its good news if what you describe is true throughout the varying school systems in all the 50 states. Somehow I doubt it. Anyway, I hope that other parents take as much interest in what their children learn in school as you do.
I don't mean to trash Thanksgiving the way that Cho does, I've mentioned a couple of times that I realize that Thanksgiving has come to mean something very different than the original Pilgrims and Indians pap. Separating it for a moment from the thanksgiving debate, I still believe that the genocide of the Indians is one of the most overlooked tragedies of History. When I made an analogy to the holocaust I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was trying to point out the difference between a systematic effort to remind people of a tragedy to avoid its recurrence and the almost uniform amnesia America has over this very important part of US history. Can you honestly say that more than a tiny percentage of Americans has given any serious thought to this fact?
This point is hit home by people like Mayor Curley, who bend over backward to minimize the importance of such a thing until finally just saying, "I don't really care, it allowed me to have a neat life": which to me pretty much sums up the attitude that I criticize. Is it any wonder that the US is filled with people who either sincerely believe that the US has done nothing but fought for freedom and democracy all over the planet since WW II or don't care that the US has done horrible things in the planet as long as it means they get to drive an SUV to the supermarket?
posted by sic at 10:48 AM on November 29, 2003
I don't mean to trash Thanksgiving the way that Cho does, I've mentioned a couple of times that I realize that Thanksgiving has come to mean something very different than the original Pilgrims and Indians pap. Separating it for a moment from the thanksgiving debate, I still believe that the genocide of the Indians is one of the most overlooked tragedies of History. When I made an analogy to the holocaust I wasn't trying to be hyperbolic, I was trying to point out the difference between a systematic effort to remind people of a tragedy to avoid its recurrence and the almost uniform amnesia America has over this very important part of US history. Can you honestly say that more than a tiny percentage of Americans has given any serious thought to this fact?
This point is hit home by people like Mayor Curley, who bend over backward to minimize the importance of such a thing until finally just saying, "I don't really care, it allowed me to have a neat life": which to me pretty much sums up the attitude that I criticize. Is it any wonder that the US is filled with people who either sincerely believe that the US has done nothing but fought for freedom and democracy all over the planet since WW II or don't care that the US has done horrible things in the planet as long as it means they get to drive an SUV to the supermarket?
posted by sic at 10:48 AM on November 29, 2003
its good news if what you describe is true throughout the varying school systems in all the 50 states.
No doubt there's a lot of variation, but I'm in a conservative part of a conservative state that takes its patriotism pretty seriously, so if schools in my neck of the woods are dealing appropriately with this material, it seems likely that it's true elsewhere. Of course, it still might not be.
Can you honestly say that more than a tiny percentage of Americans has given any serious thought to this fact?
Goodness no. Consider what it took for Germans to take responsibility for their country's genocidal conduct: crushing, total military defeat. There's nothing like that on the horizon for the U.S., and certainly nothing that would lead us to revisit the annihilation of the indians (as opposed to more recent crimes).
I'm satisfied so long as we're not teaching our children a pack of lies, and I don't think a serious coming-to-grips with our genocidal past is likely to happen any time soon.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 11:21 AM on November 29, 2003
No doubt there's a lot of variation, but I'm in a conservative part of a conservative state that takes its patriotism pretty seriously, so if schools in my neck of the woods are dealing appropriately with this material, it seems likely that it's true elsewhere. Of course, it still might not be.
Can you honestly say that more than a tiny percentage of Americans has given any serious thought to this fact?
Goodness no. Consider what it took for Germans to take responsibility for their country's genocidal conduct: crushing, total military defeat. There's nothing like that on the horizon for the U.S., and certainly nothing that would lead us to revisit the annihilation of the indians (as opposed to more recent crimes).
I'm satisfied so long as we're not teaching our children a pack of lies, and I don't think a serious coming-to-grips with our genocidal past is likely to happen any time soon.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 11:21 AM on November 29, 2003
I'm satisfied so long as we're not teaching our children a pack of lies, and I don't think a serious coming-to-grips with our genocidal past is likely to happen any time soon.
Ignoring something as serious and significant as a centuries-long campaign of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and forced relocation is teaching our kids a pack of lies. Of course, as sic said, if all parents were as active in their children's educations as you are, this probably wouldn't be a problem. But how can you be satisfied that there will be no coming-to-grips with our genocidal past? Can you really take full pride in a nation or community that isn't even pursuing that essential American practice of making itself better? There are precedents for this other than "cruching military defeat." Look at Canada and New Zealand, or Japan (and there are far fewer Ainu in Japan than Indians in the US).
I also don't want to hate on Thanksgiving. In fact, it's my favorite holiday: shitloads of food, football on a weekday. I just wish that the day's observance included some customs of atonement or acknowledgment of of our real history. Why can't we give thanks for the ability to learn from our troubled past?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:19 PM on November 29, 2003
Ignoring something as serious and significant as a centuries-long campaign of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and forced relocation is teaching our kids a pack of lies. Of course, as sic said, if all parents were as active in their children's educations as you are, this probably wouldn't be a problem. But how can you be satisfied that there will be no coming-to-grips with our genocidal past? Can you really take full pride in a nation or community that isn't even pursuing that essential American practice of making itself better? There are precedents for this other than "cruching military defeat." Look at Canada and New Zealand, or Japan (and there are far fewer Ainu in Japan than Indians in the US).
I also don't want to hate on Thanksgiving. In fact, it's my favorite holiday: shitloads of food, football on a weekday. I just wish that the day's observance included some customs of atonement or acknowledgment of of our real history. Why can't we give thanks for the ability to learn from our troubled past?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:19 PM on November 29, 2003
Ignoring something as serious and significant as a centuries-long campaign of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and forced relocation is teaching our kids a pack of lies.
I wasn't advocating ignoring the truth about our history. I was claiming, rather, that public schools today do a pretty good job of accurately presenting the facts. But what sic asked was whether most Americans ever give any serious thought to those facts. The answer to that question is no, and will continue to be no for the forseeable future.
Japan, New Zealand and Canada are not models for the U.S. Japan, like Germany, came to grips with its past only after humiliating defeat. Canada and New Zealand had never engaged the larger world to any great extent, and hence they never needed to keep in place a national narrative that justified their exercise of power. I think the U.S. has done a tolerably good job of being honest about its past, given its current position in the world.
I just wish that the day's observance included some customs of atonement or acknowledgment of of our real history.
Many Americans celebrate Thanksgiving by attending public services, very often religious services, which acknowledge our past and present failings. But many more Americans celebrate Thanksgiving by eating a lot and watching football.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2003
I wasn't advocating ignoring the truth about our history. I was claiming, rather, that public schools today do a pretty good job of accurately presenting the facts. But what sic asked was whether most Americans ever give any serious thought to those facts. The answer to that question is no, and will continue to be no for the forseeable future.
Japan, New Zealand and Canada are not models for the U.S. Japan, like Germany, came to grips with its past only after humiliating defeat. Canada and New Zealand had never engaged the larger world to any great extent, and hence they never needed to keep in place a national narrative that justified their exercise of power. I think the U.S. has done a tolerably good job of being honest about its past, given its current position in the world.
I just wish that the day's observance included some customs of atonement or acknowledgment of of our real history.
Many Americans celebrate Thanksgiving by attending public services, very often religious services, which acknowledge our past and present failings. But many more Americans celebrate Thanksgiving by eating a lot and watching football.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 1:39 PM on November 29, 2003
Japan, New Zealand and Canada are not models for the U.S. Japan, like Germany, came to grips with its past only after humiliating defeat.
What does Japan's military defeat have to do with acknowledging their genocide of the Ainu hundreds of years ago? And what does New Zealand or Canada's lack of international clout have to do with them acknowledging the eradication of their indigenous inhabitants? I really don't get where you're coming from here. These are all nations that couldnot have been without genocide. Three of the four admit that and honor those "exterminiated" by frankly and honestly working to prevent such atrocities in the future--and by admitting that it was wrong. If World War II or New Zealand's lack of world power has anything to do with any of that, please explain how.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:05 PM on November 29, 2003
What does Japan's military defeat have to do with acknowledging their genocide of the Ainu hundreds of years ago? And what does New Zealand or Canada's lack of international clout have to do with them acknowledging the eradication of their indigenous inhabitants? I really don't get where you're coming from here. These are all nations that couldnot have been without genocide. Three of the four admit that and honor those "exterminiated" by frankly and honestly working to prevent such atrocities in the future--and by admitting that it was wrong. If World War II or New Zealand's lack of world power has anything to do with any of that, please explain how.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 2:05 PM on November 29, 2003
If World War II or New Zealand's lack of world power has anything to do with any of that, please explain how.
Had Japan not been defeated in WW2, Japan never would have acknowledged wrongdoing of any sort. Their emperor was a god.
New Zealand and Canada, on the other hand, do not project power internationally, hence they don't have to uphold a national story about how they are justified in projecting power internationally.
I think the U.S. does a pretty good job of (1) acknowledging the facts of its own history, while (2) still maintaining an understanding of itself that legitimizes its own use of power. This is achieved by, on the one hand, not suppressing the truth (as, say, Japan did until recently), while on the other hand, not thinking too hard about the unsavory aspects of that truth.
When the U.S. is no longer a major world power, we will have plenty of time to repent of our sins.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:48 PM on November 29, 2003
Had Japan not been defeated in WW2, Japan never would have acknowledged wrongdoing of any sort. Their emperor was a god.
New Zealand and Canada, on the other hand, do not project power internationally, hence they don't have to uphold a national story about how they are justified in projecting power internationally.
I think the U.S. does a pretty good job of (1) acknowledging the facts of its own history, while (2) still maintaining an understanding of itself that legitimizes its own use of power. This is achieved by, on the one hand, not suppressing the truth (as, say, Japan did until recently), while on the other hand, not thinking too hard about the unsavory aspects of that truth.
When the U.S. is no longer a major world power, we will have plenty of time to repent of our sins.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 2:48 PM on November 29, 2003
I don't get why our options have to be limited to those that are precedented. Your explanation sunds pretty good, in general, though things are obviously more complicated than that. Ultimately, it's not a cost-benefit thing, it's a simple moral decision. There were all sorts of smart-soundin' economic reasons why we couldn't dump slavery, but we got over it.
If what you say about your kids' school is true for most American schools, I am happy to say that I'm completely out of touch. When I was in grammar school (not long ago--I'm 24) we were definitely taught a carefully bundled pack of lies, with Manifest Destiny pretty much playing the key role, and maybe without that background of bullshit to draw from I wouldn't see this issue in the same light.
In general, though, our genocide of the American Indians came roughly at the same time as most of the wildest and nastiest colonial bullshit in the world, and only in the last 30 or 40 years (since Fanon, I would guess) have people really been looking at that history comprehensively and critically. I agree that it would be historically abberant for Americans to truly confront and learn from our genocidal past, but isn't execeptionalism the name of the game anyhow?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:04 PM on November 29, 2003
If what you say about your kids' school is true for most American schools, I am happy to say that I'm completely out of touch. When I was in grammar school (not long ago--I'm 24) we were definitely taught a carefully bundled pack of lies, with Manifest Destiny pretty much playing the key role, and maybe without that background of bullshit to draw from I wouldn't see this issue in the same light.
In general, though, our genocide of the American Indians came roughly at the same time as most of the wildest and nastiest colonial bullshit in the world, and only in the last 30 or 40 years (since Fanon, I would guess) have people really been looking at that history comprehensively and critically. I agree that it would be historically abberant for Americans to truly confront and learn from our genocidal past, but isn't execeptionalism the name of the game anyhow?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 3:04 PM on November 29, 2003
I agree that it would be historically abberant for Americans to truly confront and learn from our genocidal past, but isn't execeptionalism the name of the game anyhow?
We're already bucking the historical trends by allowing our own history to be honestly examined, and even incorporating realistic accounts of that history into our public education system, and doing so while we are still a global power. But I think the "truly confront" and "learn from" parts will come much later, if at all.
I should go further: not only do I think it's unlikely to happen, but given the role the U.S. currently plays in the world, I'm not sure it would even be a good idea to go through such a national reevaluation right now. I'm just glad that our national identity is based on a "noble lie" that still allows us to investigate and teach the truth about ourselves (even though it doesn't allow that truth to shape our public life).
posted by peeping_Thomist at 3:59 PM on November 29, 2003
We're already bucking the historical trends by allowing our own history to be honestly examined, and even incorporating realistic accounts of that history into our public education system, and doing so while we are still a global power. But I think the "truly confront" and "learn from" parts will come much later, if at all.
I should go further: not only do I think it's unlikely to happen, but given the role the U.S. currently plays in the world, I'm not sure it would even be a good idea to go through such a national reevaluation right now. I'm just glad that our national identity is based on a "noble lie" that still allows us to investigate and teach the truth about ourselves (even though it doesn't allow that truth to shape our public life).
posted by peeping_Thomist at 3:59 PM on November 29, 2003
Mayor Curley Taking one little bit of my comment and running incoherently with it is a VERY weak diversionary tactic.
Yeah? It's a bit akin to pouncing on the word "Puritans" which I never even used.
Mayor Curley Also, explain why a link to a UseNet post should be taken at face value as a reliable source of information for anything.
Because it lists refrences to a historical and a medical publication.
posted by yoz420 at 6:13 PM on November 29, 2003
Yeah? It's a bit akin to pouncing on the word "Puritans" which I never even used.
Mayor Curley Also, explain why a link to a UseNet post should be taken at face value as a reliable source of information for anything.
Because it lists refrences to a historical and a medical publication.
posted by yoz420 at 6:13 PM on November 29, 2003
Mayor Curley, who bend over backward to minimize the importance of such a thing until finally just saying, "I don't really care, it allowed me to have a neat life": which to me pretty much sums up the attitude that I criticize.
You're the smug one, then.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:20 PM on November 29, 2003
You're the smug one, then.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:20 PM on November 29, 2003
Again you are willfully missing the point, but thats what smug, self-righteous conservatives tend to do.
Hee hee.
posted by yerfatma at 8:54 AM on November 30, 2003
Hee hee.
posted by yerfatma at 8:54 AM on November 30, 2003
My friend Jason responded to her Thanksgiving post, and she wrote back on her blog yesterday....my opinion of her went down a couple notches when I read her condescending, rude response.
posted by Vidiot at 11:51 PM on December 2, 2003
posted by Vidiot at 11:51 PM on December 2, 2003
Oh, she wasn't being condescending at all. She was being Margaret Cho.
If there was anything condescending going on Vidiot, it was your friend's line:
3. Do you mourn for Shilla and Paekche
> (conquered by Koryo, as I'm sure you
> know) as much as you mourn for
> Anacostank and Onondaga?
Margaret Cho is an American. When an American becomes one through naturalization he is expected to know a litany of information about his new country. Margaret Cho was born here. Therefore it's suddenly expected of her to not be so much American and suddenly become, poof, a Korean history expert, because she didn't formally go through the naturalization process?
An American of Korean descent can join the Army and shoot up Muslims for the American cause. But when she criticizes the abject history of how this country she lives in and is a part of, came to be, suddenly it's off limits to female Korean smart asses?
posted by crasspastor at 2:11 AM on December 3, 2003
If there was anything condescending going on Vidiot, it was your friend's line:
3. Do you mourn for Shilla and Paekche
> (conquered by Koryo, as I'm sure you
> know) as much as you mourn for
> Anacostank and Onondaga?
Margaret Cho is an American. When an American becomes one through naturalization he is expected to know a litany of information about his new country. Margaret Cho was born here. Therefore it's suddenly expected of her to not be so much American and suddenly become, poof, a Korean history expert, because she didn't formally go through the naturalization process?
An American of Korean descent can join the Army and shoot up Muslims for the American cause. But when she criticizes the abject history of how this country she lives in and is a part of, came to be, suddenly it's off limits to female Korean smart asses?
posted by crasspastor at 2:11 AM on December 3, 2003
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posted by jbou at 8:45 AM on November 28, 2003