Comments on: Paper Tiger?

Paper Tiger?

FormlessOne — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:38:18 -0800

By: XQUZYPHYR

XQUZYPHYR — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:45:16 -0800

"Since sanctions were imposed in the early 90's, Chalkzone has constantly sought chemical and nuclear weapons, including yellowcake from Niger."

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:00:43 -0800

so, all those tanks and rifles where paper? right, read the link for which i need to sign in.

By: grabbingsand

grabbingsand — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:03:48 -0800

"The broad picture emerging from the investigation to date suggests that, whatever its desire, Iraq did not possess the wherewithal to build a forbidden armory on anything like the scale it had before the 1991 Persian Gulf War." So Iraq wanted WMDs, but Iraq didn't have WMDs. Of course, under the current administration, there's little difference between wanting and having.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:08:46 -0800

When I saw the sketches I laughed. Then I cried. Then I forwarded them to my siblings who actually had to deal with this bullshit and leave their families behind. And if you're wondering, they don't buy the bullshit, either.

By: inksyndicate

inksyndicate — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:12:09 -0800

In a similar vein, it turns out that our Orange Alert X-Mas was fueled by a homeless guy with a radioactive cancer pellet he'd put in a storage locker, setting off the Feds' Geiger Counters (scroll down)

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:21:13 -0800

If they'd folded those sketches into paper airplanes, they could've put our eyes out. And they had lots of pieces of paper. Funny how the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq doesn't mention Iraq's menacing sketches, just a lot of nonexistant weapons and unproven terrorist connections. (It also doesn't mention liberating Iraq or restoring democracy, yadda yadda yadda). And has Bush been making the reports to Congress that the resolution requires every 60 days?

By: rdone

rdone — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:29:15 -0800

This article conclusively demonstrates that the "mobile biological laboratories" once so vaunted as "WMDs" were in fact British-made mobile hydrogen generators. It is beyond distressing that the President of the United States lied about this issue to the American people and the world at large. Somewhere the shade of David Kelly looks on and weeps.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:31:55 -0800

Paper Tiger, the threads title, was used by BinLaden describing The US Army after the Marines had left Beirut Iran.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:37:30 -0800

Add: US Army in Iran during the 80's.

By: hama7

hama7 — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:42:50 -0800

Iraq's Arsenal: What was found where. Salman Pak. Muthanna State Establishment. Iraq Special Weapons Guide. Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs. Iraq WMD - [55 page British Government pdf] At Salman Pak - Deroy Murdock

By: hoskala

hoskala — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:54:25 -0800

And your point Hama? Are trying to show us how distorted the prewar hype was?

By: rdone

rdone — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:56:31 -0800

Thanks for the link to the "dodgy dossier," hama7. And for all the other "sexed up" prewar speculation that hasn't proven true.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:00:22 -0800

Hama, you should pass that on to the administration, because apparently they didn't get the memo. But what the heck, I'll play. Let's say that all those weapons did exist and were a threat. Who has them now? Should we feel safer yet?

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:01:46 -0800

...whats your point. classic foo-fa whattamean tactic. Please live with the fact. he had them as to where they went and of what nature and quanties is another question. Why not try and ask him a question. when I watch the nightly news I see distortion. hype by its nature is somewhat distorted if only that it has not be verified.

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:22:47 -0800

pre-war hype...salman Pak. Please. A half dozen books have Pak as a WMD/ Training/Conventional weapons complex. Why not say that verifying the sources is difficult if not impossible because the nature of these people wanting their names protected. Credibility is what lends weight to the evidence. So, the game is on. Stick with Salman Pak as evidence. Did it produce WMD. I ring in with:Yes. were are those WMD?... also remember there is that old thing called MOTIVE and intent. Saddam had strong motive for the intention to use these weapons don't you agree? Hey, Bush I back-channeled to Saddam -you use WMD and I will turn your country into glass. perhaps the son did the same. feel safe now? dont know about you but i feel the creep of fundamentalism in my back yard

By: matteo

matteo — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:34:23 -0800

" ... Frightening people man. ... They're arming the fucking world man. You know we armed Iraq. I wondered about that too, you know during the Persian Gulf war those intelligence reports would come out: "Iraq: incredible weapons - incredible weapons." How do you know that? "Uh, well... We looked at the receipts Haar." "Ah but as soon as that cheque clears, we're going in." "What time's the bank open? 8? We're going in at 9." "We're going in for God and country and democracy and here's a foetus and he's a Hitler. Whatever you fucking need, let's go. Get motivated behind this, let's go!" Ohoh looks like Mr. Major was on the hot seat there for a second too. Little Iraqgate, little rapscallion he is. "Did we send, did I... did... I'll have to check Maggie's old calendar." What's funny about this. Every one of your papers says that you guys sold Iraq "machine tools"... which Iraq then converted into military equipment. I have news for you folks, a cannon is a machine tool. Your Orwellian language notwithstanding, it's a fucking machine, it's a tool. Our papers in the States have the same thing. We sold Iraq "farming equipment" which Iraq then "converted". How do they do this? "Simsalabim simsalabim aa salabim sim sim sim salabim." Wow! It was a chicken coop, it's now a nuclear reactor!" "This war's for Aladdin." Farming equipment which they converted into military, okay, you got me I'm curious, exactly what kind of farming equipment is this? "Oh okay, well it's stuff for the farmers of Iraq." Yeah? What? "Ooh okay, ar well ooh one of the things we gave them was for the little farmer, a new thing we came up with called er the er, flame-throwing rake." "No it was for the farmer, see. He would rake the leaves and then just turn around Boooo." "But you know what the Iraqis did with that?" There's no trees in Iraq, what are you sending them rakes for, you asshole? "We could have done our research better perhaps yes." What else did you sell 'em? "Okay er one of the other things we gave 'em was a new thing... for the farmer." "The, er, armoured tractor." "No, see, farmers when they farm look over their shoulders at times and they won't see a tree and they'll hit it maybe and there'll be a wasps nest in the tree and the wasps will come in and sting 'em." "So we put four inches of armour all over the tractor. And a turret to shoot pesticides on the wasps." "Yeah but you know what the Iraqis did with that?" "Can't trust 'em." I'm so sick of arming the world and then sending troops over to destroy the fucking arms, you know what I mean? We keep arming these little countries then we go and blow the shit out of em. We're like the bullies of the world, you know. We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane... Throwing the pistol at the sheep herder's feet: "Pick it up." "I don't wanna pick it up mister, you'll shoot me." "Pick up the gun". "Mister, I don't want no trouble huh. I just came down town here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about 10 rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble mister." "Pick up the gun." Boom bom "You all saw him. He had a gun." -- Bill Hicks oh yes, and the usual America-hating pic is now de rigueur but of course back then Saddam was fighting the good fight against those baby-eating ayatollahs, so it was cool to arm him I mean, nobody could possibly sell weapons to Iran, right? oh, wait... "Pick up the gun." Boom bom. "You all saw him. He had a gun." He had a gun, I guess

By: SweetJesus

SweetJesus — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:44:09 -0800

Hama, globalsecurity.org is a carbon copy of fas.org (Federation of American Scientists), the only difference being that globalsecurity.org is wrong more than half the time. It's just a poorly edited mirror of FAS with a hell of a lot more ads. I use FAS and related military-industrial information sites for work, and have been conned by globalsecurity a few times (The details are far too boring to go into). In other words, know what the hell you're linking to.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:02:08 -0800

The smoking squirt gun.

By: machaus

machaus — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:14:09 -0800

The only thing that could have been worse about those drawings would be if they were done on a cocktail napkin. No, I take that back. They could have been done during study hall and had "true love always" written on them. Jeebus.

By: hama7

hama7 — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:36:46 -0800

Iraq WMD Dossier Statement. Government publishes assessment of Iraqi WMD. Claims and evaluations of Iraq's proscribed weapons. Iraq: Weapons of Mass Destruction. Iraqi Weapons Potential. Al Qaeda videos found in Iraq weapons raid. US official stands by Iraq weapons report .

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:53:58 -0800

By: jammer

jammer — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:21:31 -0800

Just give it up, hama7. I'm with you, but the people you're trying to convince will never change their minds. Let them get their jollies, vote for Dean, lose, and just comfort yourself knowing that they're in the minority.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:31:04 -0800

It's just too easy: from this link Government publishes assessment of Iraqi WMD. "Page Modified: 24th September 2002" Hama - you're a fucking idiot.

By: romanb

romanb — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:38:21 -0800

Have you guys actually read Hama's links? Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:51:07 -0800

No, wait, he's on to something: Iraqi Nuclear Site is found looted Nuclear Experts Search for 'Dirty Bombs' [Dirty Harry]Now, do you feel safer, punk? Do you? [/Dirty Harry] Hat tip to Billmon, of course!

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:10:44 -0800

Hama - you're a fucking idiot. Whether that's true or not, it's out of line, dude. I'm with you, but the people you're trying to convince will never change their minds. You're right, jammer. I will never change my mind that Iraq doesn't have WMDs, despite the mountains of evidence...that Iraq doesn't have WMDs.

By: Hildago

Hildago — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:19:24 -0800

Regardless of what you guys think, Iraq did have a program to develop weapons of mass destruction, they did have chemical weapons stockpiles, they did use them on American citizens, they did hold the president's mother hostage and demand access to Hitler's DNA, they did blow up our moon base with their lasers, and they are currently occupying Washington, D.C.

By: inksyndicate

inksyndicate — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:24:47 -0800

Yeah, please be nice to Hama7. But his info is completely outdated.

By: salmacis

salmacis — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:04:04 -0800

I wonder, what is the colour of the sky on clavidivs' and hama7's planet?

By: machaus

machaus — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:28:46 -0800

Hildago, you forgot the bit about our precious fluids.

By: Mars Saxman

Mars Saxman — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:29:02 -0800

Hey, folks, I'm going to re-start the space program! All I need to do is forge a document demonstrating that the Martians have tons of oil and intend to develop nuclear weapons. Next thing you know, the U.S. will be pouring Marines into the place, building bases, protecting infrastructure, there'll be Halliburton contractors all over, it'll be great.

By: mcsweetie

mcsweetie — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:42:12 -0800

well imagine this: what if at one point, mars was a thriving ecosystem but a global catastrophe buried all life under a thick mountain of rubble several million years ago? think of all the crude that must be built up just below the surface!

By: FormlessOne

FormlessOne — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:14:41 -0800

Great..."The Martian Hillbillies."

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:22:23 -0800

"Let them get their jollies, vote for Dean, lose, and just comfort yourself knowing that they're in the minority." - Jammer Um, I'm not such a bleeding heart that I'm whining about the pretender-in-chief (commander-in-theory?) getting elected on a technicality, but the fact remains that the candidate fielded by the Democrats has won the popular vote in the last three elections, Jammer. A trend over the last 12 years in which the American voting public has picked a Democrat to live in the White House. Minority?

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:30:47 -0800

on my planet, the sky colors you.

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:41:13 -0800

i have lost track of the color of the sky, for i was crushed lifeless when it fell in the manner of an unexpected brick earthward.

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:25:50 -0800

'Figure 1. Sumerian statues from Tell Asmar, Iraq, don hard hats to help with the construction project. Photograph modification by Jason Ur'

By: homunculus

homunculus — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:37:09 -0800

U.S. Withdraws a Team of Weapons Hunters From Iraq

By: y2karl

y2karl — Wed, 07 Jan 2004 22:17:44 -0800

on my planet, the sky colors you. And that would be Uranus?

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:24:48 -0800

From homunculus's link: WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 — The Bush administration has quietly withdrawn from Iraq a 400-member military team whose job was to scour the country for military equipment, according to senior government officials. The step was described by some military officials as a sign that the administration might have lowered its sights and no longer expected to uncover the caches of chemical and biological weapons that the White House cited as a principal reason for going to war last March. A separate military team that specializes in disposing of chemical and biological weapons remains part of the 1,400-member Iraq Survey Group, which has been searching Iraq for more that seven months at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. But that team is "still waiting for something to dispose of," said a survey group member.

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:51:24 -0800

Saddam's Iraq didn't have an active WMD program nor did it have any stockpiles of weapons that could be used against coalition troops. To me, that says, "no WMD threat." So either the President and his people lied or their intelligence sucked and it got a lot of people killed. One day they'll have to admit to one or the other.

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:22:31 -0800

From homunculus's link:.....and? karl, and to think i was trying to reform well you blew the lid off cupcake. you don't like that the U.S. is winning do you. I do not care about that. I care about your bloated data dumps and how you evade direct questions. are you afraid karl, afraid of the government or the terrorists or are you one of these happy go lucky rejects who see peace by any means. I can't believe you have become worse them i ever was concerning conduct. I think most members i have talked are right. metafilter is nothing more then a message board with denizens like yourself yapping the color green up. I remember once you confronting me, way back to clarify myself and i did for the most. Now lay the fuck off. because i can 'whatta mean whatta mean' with the best and i will win. i don't want to e-mail anyone, i don't want you to respond or start a metatalk thread just lay the fuck off.

By: nofundy

nofundy — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:10:06 -0800

Ewwww!!!! Clavdivs got his wittle feelings hurt! I thought it was a clever retort myself. (kudos to y2karl) Stay out of the kitchen dude if you can't take a little heat.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:41:08 -0800

"Clavdivs got his wittle feelings hurt!" You actually understood that? I thought he was trying to do some kind of ash poopem impersonation. "because i can 'whatta mean whatta mean' with the best and i will win." You win. Here's a lollipop, sonny.

By: Vidiot

Vidiot — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:36:17 -0800

And it's a shame that no one found Saddam's sharks with frickin' laser beams either...

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:57:43 -0800

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace report WMD IN IRAQ: Evidence and Implications SUMMARY OF KEY FINDINGS Iraq WMD Was Not An Immediate Threat · Iraq's nuclear program had been suspended for many years; Iraq focused on preserving a latent, dual-use chemical and probably biological weapons capability, not weapons production. · Iraqi nerve agents had lost most of their lethality as early as 1991. · Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, and UN inspections and sanctions effectively destroyed Iraq's large-scale chemical weapon production capabilities. Inspections Were Working · Post-war searches suggest the UN inspections were on track to find what was there. · International constraints, sanctions, procurement, investigations, and the export/import control mechanism appear to have been considerably more effective than was thought. Intelligence Failed and Was Misrepresented · Intelligence community overestimated the chemical and biological weapons in Iraq. · Intelligence community appears to have been unduly influenced by policymakers' views. · Officials misrepresented threat from Iraq's WMD and ballistic missiles programs over and above intelligence findings. Terrorist Connection Missing · No solid evidence of cooperative relationship between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda. · No evidence that Iraq would have transferred WMD to terrorists-and much evidence to counter it. · No evidence to suggest that deterrence was no longer operable. Post-War WMD Search Ignored Key Resources · Past relationships with Iraqi scientists and officials, and credibility of UNMOVIC experts represent a vital resource that has been ignored when it should be being fully exploited. · Data from the seven years of UNSCOM/IAEA inspections are absolutely essential. Direct involvement of those who compiled the more-than-30-million- page record is needed. War Was Not the Best-Or Only-Option · There were at least two options preferable to a war undertaken without international support: allowing the UNMOVIC/IAEA inspections to continue until obstructed or completed, or imposing a tougher program of "coercive inspections." PDF And it's a shame that no one found Saddam's sharks with frickin' laser beams either... Sort of like this?

By: hincandenza

hincandenza — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:05:14 -0800

claudius: on my planet, the sky colors you. Dude, did you just rip off Yakov Smirnoff? That is so 1980's, dude.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:43:18 -0800

Powell refutes think-tank report on Iraq Secretary of State Colin Powell acknowledged Thursday that he had seen no "smoking gun, concrete evidence" of ties between Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaida terror network, but insisted that Iraq had had dangerous weapons and needed to be disarmed by force.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:04:48 -0800

What the hell is Powell thinking? It's already understood that he'll be leaving the cabinet when Bush's first term is up. I don't believe for a second that he believes this "bullshit"--why toe the party line like this? Is it a last ditch effort to keep the GOP on his side to protect his future ambitions in the party?

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:39:15 -0800

Clavdivs got his wittle feelings hurt! oh no, i was just confronting karl and he is still dumping data just wavvy words. Iraq at first denied the production of VX. When confronted with the evidence of its past VX production by UNSCOM, to explain the lack of documentary proof of the destruction of this quantity of VX, it "provided UNSCOM with handwritten notes that recorded the issuance of oral instructions, inter alia, to destroy any evidence indicating the presence of VX and a key precursor of VX, 'Iraqi choline'" ("Unresolved Disarmament Issues", 6 March 2003, p.80). "It was information [the intelligence community] presented to the Congress. It was information they had presented publicly and they stand behind it. And this game is still unfolding." Of Carnegie's finding that Iraq posed no imminent threat, Mr Powell said: "They did not say it wasn't there." Iraq has stated that 700kg of peptone were stolen when after it was evacuated from al-Hakam, Iraq's main biological weapons site, during the Gulf War. However, UNSCOM has asserted that it "has reason to believe" that this material was not stolen, hence its claim that Iraq could have produced 16 times more perfringens than it has accounted for (in its January 1999 report, Appendix III). UNSCOM does not provide the basis for its claim that the material was not stolen; and, confusingly, later in the report qualifies this assessment by describing Iraq's claim as "probably untrue". Dude, did you just rip off Yakov Smirnoff? That is so 1980's, dude. Dude, are you still hoping that terrorists will destroy the United States? Y'know, fuck it- now I'm rooting for the terrorists, any terrorists. Here's hoping that there's another attack and it's by train or bus or truck or something- anything but plane- and thermonuclear if possible, please. Why? Because fuck them and fuck us, that's why... bastards like us don't deserve the diminishing freedoms we still have. posted by hincandenza at 11:40 AM PST on October 19

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:40:54 -0800

hey loony bin laden, you feel the same as hincandenza?

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:21:17 -0800

another response to this (warning: humor)