Comments on: The emerging self

The emerging self

the fire you left me — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:51:53 -0800

The postmodern Church. Called "emerging" or "postmodern" churches, they are diverse in theology and method, linked loosely by Internet sites, Web logs, conferences and a growing stack of hip-looking paperbacks. Some religious historians believe the churches represent the next wave of evangelical worship, after the boom in megachurches in the 1980's and 1990's.

By: the fire you left me

the fire you left me — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:35:56 -0800

By: footballrabi

footballrabi — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:23:15 -0800

Protestant churches are certainly taking some funny turns in their search for the next big thing (is there life after megachurch?). This site is like the mothership for this movement. There is also another trend going on which borrows some of the same content as the emergent movement (like, old and funky is better) while not breaking the church form quite as much (like, organs and pianos instead of drumkits and electric guitars). Both 'hip' and 'conservative'. The press hasn't been so kind. I'm not so sure I want my church to be hip. It would make me suspicious or something.

By: konolia

konolia — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:32:35 -0800

Good post.

By: konolia

konolia — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:36:31 -0800

I'm not so sure I want my church to be hip. It would make me suspicious or something I want MY church to be real. To me a lot of the traditional stuff is just traditional stuff. I take my faith seriously...I go to a church with more than 2000 members, biblically very sound but we do have things like worship bands (I'm part of that.) The neat thing is that there are a smorgasboard of styles out there for church. From the beauty and majesty of a liturgical service to the simplicity of a house church to the ebullience and joy of a charismatic fellowship, etc etc-all that matters is that God is worshiped and that His sheep are fed. He does like variety, and He knows we do, too.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:44:57 -0800

I'm not so sure I want my church to be hip. Depends on your definition of "hip." If you mean "hip" as in "knowing, cynical, blase." Then I can see your point. If you mean "hip" as in "aware, open to new ideas/variety, accepting of people," then that would be cool, methinks.

By: footballrabi

footballrabi — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:46:55 -0800

I want MY church to be real. Exactly. Church should be about being, not about trying to be.

By: MattD

MattD — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:48:41 -0800

Religion fulfills a need for people to believe in something bigger than themselves and more absolute than the uncertain and mutable propositions by which they'd otherwise live their lives. The ritual and structure of liturgical and hierarchical churches fulfill this need naturally. Evangelical churches, lacking either liturgy or hierarchy, need something else. The fundamentalist churches among them have the only signifier they need in absolutely centering on the Bible, but the rest are left chasing signifiers of structure and transcendence. The sheer scale of the megachurches was one solution, although your average megachurch has no more congregants than your typical suburban Catholic church -- the megachurch just packs them all in at one 10 a.m. Sunday service, instead of spreading them out through the 6 p.m. Saturday masses and six Masses throughout the day Sunday. I'm very interested in the development of liturgical or quasi-liturgical practices in evangelical churches. I suspect that it will end up not really getting the job done -- sort of the way that high church Anglicanism seems to have two endings, equally unsatisfactory from the standpoint of Anglicanism -- the high churcher decides to go all the way and becomes Catholic or Orthodox, or the high church ceremony devolves into an empty theatricalism.

By: RylandDotNet

RylandDotNet — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:52:43 -0800

I find this fascinating, although some of the descriptions make it sound like marketing people coming up with a church for Generation Y - EXTREME JESUS! or something. But it may have something going for it: Like discussion groups on the Internet, the churches are nonhierarchal and open to multiple points of view, which has drawn criticism from some leaders of established churches who say the emerging churches undercut absolute truths for the vagaries of multiple interpretations. That line, more than anything, made me feel like there is something more than just pandering to hipsters. If it makes the church elders sputter, it may be worth listening to.

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:56:55 -0800

Churches take these lunges into the hip new fads, grow to epic proportions and then burn out in turn for the next new thing. The "reproducers" had their big shot in the 60's, but blew out, then you've got your "Young Life" and "Guitar Mass" crap. This is what happens when people stop believing that they are going to hell if they don't blindly adhere to the dogma. Damn free will.

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:56:55 -0800

I don't care what these "believers" do as long they don't flaunt their "lifestyle" in public.

By: footballrabi

footballrabi — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:09:08 -0800

Well, jonmc, I guess I do mean 'hip' as knowing and cynical. This exposes me, because that's how I tend to be. If grace exists, it certainly isn't knowing or cynical. I hope that it would be totally unlike me. Which is why these movements, (megachurch, emergent, missional, etc) wrankle me. They smell too much like marketing. I'm wary of that because of the old medium is the message argument (which originated, for my money, with St. Paul in his letters to Corinth: weakness and fear vs. power and eloquence). It seems that when grace is marketed it simply becomes another commodity. And, really, God help us all if grace is just that. If, on the other hand, these forms are coming out of the fact that this is how these ministers and people actually are, then I should be less pessimistic (if they are real, as konolia wrote). I think that MattD is right about this 'trending up' in evangelical circles. It seems to have been going on for about 10 years now. Why do you think this is the case?

By: jennyb

jennyb — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:54:40 -0800

See also Jesus Plus Nothing. This article made me want to vomit in terror. For real, yo.

By: 4easypayments

4easypayments — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:55:27 -0800

"Why are so many women so passionate about shopping at Anthropologie? Because Glen Senk and his colleagues aren't just selling clothes and furnishings. They're selling a sense of adventure and originality -- and the promise of self-discovery." See also: Urban Outfitters.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:25:51 -0800

i got a bang out of emergentvillage.com, which footballrabi linked above. not only do they have that edgy, 'nu-tech' name, they have a stylized "e" and - get ready for it - a swooshy logo. whoa, like dude, when's the IPO?!

By: billsaysthis

billsaysthis — Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:26:38 -0800

quonsar, I'm down with the "image pilgrimage for your spiritual formation" over at eV. I mean, they have to use that cool, tech-like acronym, right?

By: stavrosthewonderchicken

stavrosthewonderchicken — Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:43:29 -0800

If I had a church, I'd want my church to be as far from other human beings as it could possibly get.

By: boltman

boltman — Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:32:56 -0800

open source theology is a particularly facinating "emerging church" blog that I've been keeping my eye on for some time. It's "Outline of an emerging theology" gives a general sense of where they're coming from theologically, as does this recent dialogue between the site's founder and a more orthodox Lutheran pastor that criticized the site. One can debate the theological soundness of their specific beliefs (or, more accurately, their range of beliefs) but I think the idea of theology as a dialectic rather than a set of immutable truths is quite facinating and potentially far more useful for at least some believers. Reminds me of Kierkegaard.

By: Skwirl

Skwirl — Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:24:42 -0800

Please, please, please tell me that Jesus Plus Nothing is fiction.