Free-Speech Zones come to Boston this July
February 20, 2004 11:56 AM Subscribe
Free-Speech Zones come to Boston this July.
Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined to a cozy triangle of land off Haymarket Square, blocked off from the FleetCenter and convention delegates by a maze of Central Artery service roads, MBTA train tracks, and a temporary parking lot holding scores of buses and media trucks.
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers, the "free-speech zone" would be a small plot bounded by Green Line tracks and North Washington Street, in an area that until recently was given over to the elevated artery. The zone would hold as few as 400 of the several thousand protesters who are expected in Boston in late July.
Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined to a cozy triangle of land off Haymarket Square, blocked off from the FleetCenter and convention delegates by a maze of Central Artery service roads, MBTA train tracks, and a temporary parking lot holding scores of buses and media trucks.
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers, the "free-speech zone" would be a small plot bounded by Green Line tracks and North Washington Street, in an area that until recently was given over to the elevated artery. The zone would hold as few as 400 of the several thousand protesters who are expected in Boston in late July.
That's incredibly lame. I hope the DNC isn't doing this because Bush has been doing it for the past year or two. They should take the high road and allow hecklers and protesters to stand where they want.
posted by mathowie at 12:03 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by mathowie at 12:03 PM on February 20, 2004
You watch and see the horrendousness that'll happen here for the Repub. convention...there's no place to put all the protestors that'll be here.
This will be shot down, if only to serve as a political counterpoint to how Bush deals with free speech--we won't let ourselves be seen to be the same as him.
posted by amberglow at 12:05 PM on February 20, 2004
This will be shot down, if only to serve as a political counterpoint to how Bush deals with free speech--we won't let ourselves be seen to be the same as him.
posted by amberglow at 12:05 PM on February 20, 2004
I'm dying to hear anyone get up in arms about this AND discuss the NY Republican convention's 9/11 invocation to end all invocations, Tom DeLays' "charity" cruises in the harbor and any other manner of times Bush has kept people with issues far greater than "John Kerry looks funny!" from appearing on camera.
posted by machaus at 12:08 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by machaus at 12:08 PM on February 20, 2004
I live in a free speech zone (purportedly) - the USA.
Whoever does this, either political party, it is just wrong.
Will Boston city officials be requesting 5000 soldiers to reinforce police for their convention the way NYC did?
posted by nofundy at 12:10 PM on February 20, 2004
Whoever does this, either political party, it is just wrong.
Will Boston city officials be requesting 5000 soldiers to reinforce police for their convention the way NYC did?
posted by nofundy at 12:10 PM on February 20, 2004
Whoever does this, either political party, it is just wrong.
And stupid. Here's to a voter turnout of zero. If no one votes, they can't declare a winner.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:16 PM on February 20, 2004
And stupid. Here's to a voter turnout of zero. If no one votes, they can't declare a winner.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:16 PM on February 20, 2004
So this makes the remainder of the area a "not free-speech zone"? Doesn't the Consitution say something about about this... some gibberish about the right to assemble.
posted by cedar at 12:41 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by cedar at 12:41 PM on February 20, 2004
Doesn't the Consitution say something about about this... some gibberish about the right to assemble.
Oh, they're working on that right now. And it seems to have become a bipartisan effort. Hey maybe that whole bipartisanship=date rape thing isn't so far off anyway!
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:44 PM on February 20, 2004
Oh, they're working on that right now. And it seems to have become a bipartisan effort. Hey maybe that whole bipartisanship=date rape thing isn't so far off anyway!
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 12:44 PM on February 20, 2004
Wait wait. S@L is *upset* about this?
Let me look out the window, see if I can spot any pigs aloft.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:44 PM on February 20, 2004
Let me look out the window, see if I can spot any pigs aloft.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:44 PM on February 20, 2004
Post-Vietnam protesting is basically public masturbation. I'm a leftist, but if the Boston police want to give me a baton and help really make a difference, I'd be happy to do it. Shrieking hippes are not going to influence public policy; they're just going to make moving about in a crowded city less pleasant.
If any Chicago cops who remember '68 want to come back for one last bout, I've got a spare bed and my apartment is close enough to the action that you won't have to press against hippies and their dirty sweaters on the T.
(Yeah, yeah, we shall not be moved, hug a rainbow, etc. We lost about 25 years ago and Corporate America is not giving back the Democratic Party no matter how clever our signs are or how piercing our shouts. Let me have my nice city the way that I like it.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:46 PM on February 20, 2004
If any Chicago cops who remember '68 want to come back for one last bout, I've got a spare bed and my apartment is close enough to the action that you won't have to press against hippies and their dirty sweaters on the T.
(Yeah, yeah, we shall not be moved, hug a rainbow, etc. We lost about 25 years ago and Corporate America is not giving back the Democratic Party no matter how clever our signs are or how piercing our shouts. Let me have my nice city the way that I like it.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 12:46 PM on February 20, 2004
Let me have my nice city the way that I like it.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Christ almighty.
posted by jon_kill at 1:00 PM on February 20, 2004
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Christ almighty.
posted by jon_kill at 1:00 PM on February 20, 2004
That's incredibly lame. I hope the DNC isn't doing this because Bush has been doing it for the past year or two.
This is nothing new, the same thing happened at the DNC in Chicago in 96. I would not be at all surprised to hear it went back a good deal further.
posted by thirteen at 1:10 PM on February 20, 2004
This is nothing new, the same thing happened at the DNC in Chicago in 96. I would not be at all surprised to hear it went back a good deal further.
posted by thirteen at 1:10 PM on February 20, 2004
adamgreenfield: I've not said that I was upset or not upset. I simply posted this.
In fact I've not registered an opinion this matter at all. So keep you assumptions and snide comments to yourself.
happened at the DNC in Chicago in 96. I would not be at all surprised to hear it went back a good deal further.
Agree or disagree with this tactic, I've never understood why this in particular has been blamed on Bush. This has been going on for quite sometime, in both political parties.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:14 PM on February 20, 2004
In fact I've not registered an opinion this matter at all. So keep you assumptions and snide comments to yourself.
happened at the DNC in Chicago in 96. I would not be at all surprised to hear it went back a good deal further.
Agree or disagree with this tactic, I've never understood why this in particular has been blamed on Bush. This has been going on for quite sometime, in both political parties.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:14 PM on February 20, 2004
All right - so what can we do to crush this un-American concept of "free speech zones" so that we can return to living in nofundy's U.S.A. where the whole country is a free speech zone? Any ideas?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:16 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:16 PM on February 20, 2004
happened at the DNC in Chicago in 96. I would not be at all surprised to hear it went back a good deal further
supporting link?
posted by terrapin at 1:18 PM on February 20, 2004
supporting link?
posted by terrapin at 1:18 PM on February 20, 2004
I can't vouch for their integrity, but a quick Google turned up Democratic Convention: Police State Chicago and Democratic Convention '96: The Iron Fist After All.
posted by turbodog at 1:35 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by turbodog at 1:35 PM on February 20, 2004
Also don't forget 2000 in Philadelphia in which multiple people were arrested on charges of posessing weapons of mass protest only to be released by judges in some cases laughing the charges out of court.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:46 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:46 PM on February 20, 2004
i'm shrieking
And I'm sure that our elected official will hear your shrill rhymes and adjust policy accordingly.
Yeah, you'll be Takin' It To The Streets, just like the Doobie Brothers said to. No ignoring it this time, unlike every single other time it's been tried.
(Also keep in mind that the media will show only the most obnoxious dicks, ensuring that your cause is damaged rather than furthered.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:29 PM on February 20, 2004
And I'm sure that our elected official will hear your shrill rhymes and adjust policy accordingly.
Yeah, you'll be Takin' It To The Streets, just like the Doobie Brothers said to. No ignoring it this time, unlike every single other time it's been tried.
(Also keep in mind that the media will show only the most obnoxious dicks, ensuring that your cause is damaged rather than furthered.)
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:29 PM on February 20, 2004
supporting link?
Looks like Turbo-dog covered it. The statement was based on my memory of the event. The conventioneers would have had to take a nice long walk out of their way to find protesters.
posted by thirteen at 2:42 PM on February 20, 2004
Looks like Turbo-dog covered it. The statement was based on my memory of the event. The conventioneers would have had to take a nice long walk out of their way to find protesters.
posted by thirteen at 2:42 PM on February 20, 2004
You know, you're right, Mayor Curley.
We should all just sit at home, angry at the politicians and the media for failing to represent us, for willfully distorting the picture of America, and just knit some new socks or something. Because doing nothing is clearly going to make all of those assholes up top stop and say, 'Oh, even the protesters are too despondent to come out anymore; maybe we really are horrible people, after all. Let's change everything for the better!'
You're right in that we are, politically, fucked from both ends the way things have been going. But things aren't going to get unfucked without a little coaxing. If you have any better ideas than protesting for thousands of people to get together for free exchange of ideas, and see that there really is a massive, angry portion of the society being improperly represented by the mass media, then I'm all ears.
But if you're thesis is that we should sit with our thumbs up our asses and our pacifiers in our mouths and wait for the robber-barons to see the error of their ways, I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
I think protest is capable of changing things. Maybe it doesn't do much to the issue at hand, in most cases, but I seriously doubt that Dean would have been allowed to give the Dems their recent course correction if it hadn't been for events like the world-wide anti-war protests last winter. I doubt that half as many people would be informed on the down sides of globalization if it hadn't been for the WTO protests in Seattle and beyond.
While the protests might look like just a bunch of kids getting beat up by angry cops on TV, there is a massive exchange of information going on off-camera. Protests are a gathering point for activists, and are great for creating new activists, who can start organizations and movements with the people they meet. It's an important social event, and I think it keeps resistance alive.
Does protest fix everything over night? No, never. Does it lead to change? You betcha.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:48 PM on February 20, 2004
We should all just sit at home, angry at the politicians and the media for failing to represent us, for willfully distorting the picture of America, and just knit some new socks or something. Because doing nothing is clearly going to make all of those assholes up top stop and say, 'Oh, even the protesters are too despondent to come out anymore; maybe we really are horrible people, after all. Let's change everything for the better!'
You're right in that we are, politically, fucked from both ends the way things have been going. But things aren't going to get unfucked without a little coaxing. If you have any better ideas than protesting for thousands of people to get together for free exchange of ideas, and see that there really is a massive, angry portion of the society being improperly represented by the mass media, then I'm all ears.
But if you're thesis is that we should sit with our thumbs up our asses and our pacifiers in our mouths and wait for the robber-barons to see the error of their ways, I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
I think protest is capable of changing things. Maybe it doesn't do much to the issue at hand, in most cases, but I seriously doubt that Dean would have been allowed to give the Dems their recent course correction if it hadn't been for events like the world-wide anti-war protests last winter. I doubt that half as many people would be informed on the down sides of globalization if it hadn't been for the WTO protests in Seattle and beyond.
While the protests might look like just a bunch of kids getting beat up by angry cops on TV, there is a massive exchange of information going on off-camera. Protests are a gathering point for activists, and are great for creating new activists, who can start organizations and movements with the people they meet. It's an important social event, and I think it keeps resistance alive.
Does protest fix everything over night? No, never. Does it lead to change? You betcha.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:48 PM on February 20, 2004
If our office move goes as planned, I'll be a half a block from the Fleet Center, and I plan to free my speech as much or as little as I'd like.
posted by jalexei at 3:18 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by jalexei at 3:18 PM on February 20, 2004
and to what kaibutsu said, every protestor beaten by cops on tv will sway moderates against Bush. It's pathetic, but true.
posted by amberglow at 3:20 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by amberglow at 3:20 PM on February 20, 2004
My inner cynic would like to point out that putting that many expected protestors in that little space is just asking for a disaster of the people getting hurt and maybe dying variety.
My inner cynic agrees that as bad as this would be, it would make the evening news and somebody might notice the protests as a result. Yes, my inner cynic thinks that would be the best possible outcome should this fiasco proceed as planned.
posted by ilsa at 4:16 PM on February 20, 2004
My inner cynic agrees that as bad as this would be, it would make the evening news and somebody might notice the protests as a result. Yes, my inner cynic thinks that would be the best possible outcome should this fiasco proceed as planned.
posted by ilsa at 4:16 PM on February 20, 2004
So these Democrat politicians, they behave as reprehensibly as their Republican counterparts?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:23 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by inpHilltr8r at 4:23 PM on February 20, 2004
None, including Democrats, should try to avoid dissent.
However, it's clear who has been really afraid of dissent in this country:
Free Speech Zones and John Ashcroft
Bursey was singled out for arrest not because he was in an area restricted to official personnel. He wasn't singled out because he was in a location the Secret Service needed to keep clear for security reasons. He was singled out becaue he was holding an anti-Bush sign while standing in an area reserved for Republicans enthusiastically greeting Bush. As the New York Times reported, Bursey was one of thousands of civilians standing on the tarmac at Columbia Metropolitan Airport to greet President Bush. He was the only one protesting his arrival, however.
Quarantining dissent
How the Secret Service protects Bushfrom free speech
Similar suppressions have occurred during Bush visits to Florida. A
recent St. Petersburg Times editorial noted, "At a Bush rally at
Legends Field in 2001, three demonstrators -- two of whom were
grandmothers -- were arrested for holding up small handwritten protest
signs outside the designated zone. And last year, seven protesters
were arrested when Bush came to a rally at the USF Sun Dome. They had
refused to be cordoned off into a protest zone hundreds of yards from
the entrance to the Dome."
One of the arrested protesters was a 62-year-old man holding up a
sign, "War is good business. Invest your sons." The seven were charged
with trespassing, "obstructing without violence and disorderly
conduct."
Police have repressed protesters during several Bush visits to the St.
Louis area as well. When Bush visited on Jan. 22, 150 people carrying
signs were shunted far away from the main action and effectively
quarantined.
Denise Lieberman of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern
Missouri commented, "No one could see them from the street. In
addition, the media were not allowed to talk to them. The police would
not allow any media inside the protest area and wouldn't allow any of
the protesters out of the protest zone to talk to the media."
[snip]
And so how odd that this little front page post doesn't mention what's been happening in this country under president AWOL over the past few years:
Steve@Linnwood: In fact I've not registered an opinion this matter at all. So keep you[r] assumptions and snide comments to yourself.
Oh, right. We're sure it was just completely random that you happened to post about Democrats contemplating doing something like this, despite the fact that your favorite poster chimp for urinating on himself at the first sign of dissent, President AWOL hisself, has been hiding for practically every public appearance in his presidency.
So keep your silly, dishonest protestations of impartiality to yourself.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 4:59 PM on February 20, 2004
However, it's clear who has been really afraid of dissent in this country:
Free Speech Zones and John Ashcroft
Bursey was singled out for arrest not because he was in an area restricted to official personnel. He wasn't singled out because he was in a location the Secret Service needed to keep clear for security reasons. He was singled out becaue he was holding an anti-Bush sign while standing in an area reserved for Republicans enthusiastically greeting Bush. As the New York Times reported, Bursey was one of thousands of civilians standing on the tarmac at Columbia Metropolitan Airport to greet President Bush. He was the only one protesting his arrival, however.
Quarantining dissent
How the Secret Service protects Bushfrom free speech
Similar suppressions have occurred during Bush visits to Florida. A
recent St. Petersburg Times editorial noted, "At a Bush rally at
Legends Field in 2001, three demonstrators -- two of whom were
grandmothers -- were arrested for holding up small handwritten protest
signs outside the designated zone. And last year, seven protesters
were arrested when Bush came to a rally at the USF Sun Dome. They had
refused to be cordoned off into a protest zone hundreds of yards from
the entrance to the Dome."
One of the arrested protesters was a 62-year-old man holding up a
sign, "War is good business. Invest your sons." The seven were charged
with trespassing, "obstructing without violence and disorderly
conduct."
Police have repressed protesters during several Bush visits to the St.
Louis area as well. When Bush visited on Jan. 22, 150 people carrying
signs were shunted far away from the main action and effectively
quarantined.
Denise Lieberman of the American Civil Liberties Union of Eastern
Missouri commented, "No one could see them from the street. In
addition, the media were not allowed to talk to them. The police would
not allow any media inside the protest area and wouldn't allow any of
the protesters out of the protest zone to talk to the media."
[snip]
And so how odd that this little front page post doesn't mention what's been happening in this country under president AWOL over the past few years:
Steve@Linnwood: In fact I've not registered an opinion this matter at all. So keep you[r] assumptions and snide comments to yourself.
Oh, right. We're sure it was just completely random that you happened to post about Democrats contemplating doing something like this, despite the fact that your favorite poster chimp for urinating on himself at the first sign of dissent, President AWOL hisself, has been hiding for practically every public appearance in his presidency.
So keep your silly, dishonest protestations of impartiality to yourself.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 4:59 PM on February 20, 2004
I live in Boston. All opinions aside, I simply can't imagine where protestors could gather in large numbers within sight and sound of the Fleet Center. This is a very, very small city.
posted by swerve at 5:10 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by swerve at 5:10 PM on February 20, 2004
The location in the city is a great planning tactic. They could have held it at the new convention center - which is outside the city but too close to the airport for safekeeping, or at Hynes which is more central, but probably has too much city space around it. They probably couldn't get the camera angles, or have the ready cameras that are used for Bruin and Celtic games. This is a sporting event, after all.
I am very interested to see what will happen, and I'll have my video camera with me at all times.
posted by grimley at 5:30 PM on February 20, 2004
I am very interested to see what will happen, and I'll have my video camera with me at all times.
posted by grimley at 5:30 PM on February 20, 2004
Good post.
posted by the fire you left me at 6:20 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by the fire you left me at 6:20 PM on February 20, 2004
commondreams.org is very reputable.
posted by the fire you left me at 6:21 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by the fire you left me at 6:21 PM on February 20, 2004
S@L posted a link without any opinion or commentary -- quite simply, a "new-filter" type post. He did nothing wrong, nor did he fan any flames.
And Mayor Curley's attitude is very rational and mature. I appreciate that.
posted by davidmsc at 10:43 PM on February 20, 2004
And Mayor Curley's attitude is very rational and mature. I appreciate that.
posted by davidmsc at 10:43 PM on February 20, 2004
Remember how the Wall came down, Mayor Curley?
"Wir sind das Volk!"
posted by muckster at 10:52 PM on February 20, 2004
"Wir sind das Volk!"
posted by muckster at 10:52 PM on February 20, 2004
commondreams.org is very reputable
How can a site which produces no origianl content be disreputable? Are you saying they unethically doctor the pieces they decide to pick up or mirror?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:23 PM on February 20, 2004
How can a site which produces no origianl content be disreputable? Are you saying they unethically doctor the pieces they decide to pick up or mirror?
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:23 PM on February 20, 2004
Stealing the primary election from the rank and file membership was bad enough, but coupled with this latest jackassery I cannot see myself supporting the Democratic party this time around. If they blackball Nader from the debates again, I'll consider that the third and final strike and will henceforth drop them from my radar screen for good.
posted by RavinDave at 11:29 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by RavinDave at 11:29 PM on February 20, 2004
That was sarcasm, right?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:44 PM on February 20, 2004
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:44 PM on February 20, 2004
We're sure it was just completely random that you happened to post about Democrats contemplating doing something like this
Well first off, Doctor, they are not "contemplating" anything. They are doing it.
Secondly, I had seen two previous posts on this subject here that had generated great discussion, and thought that the membership would find this interesting. If I wanted to add commentary like "Oh look at those leftys being hypocrites" I very well could have. But I didn't.
I'm not sure what I think of this, but I do know that this is as nonpartisan of an issue as you get. Neither party wants bad press, or people to turn focus from the image they are trying to present to the nation. Has more to do with public relations than ideology.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:07 AM on February 21, 2004
Well first off, Doctor, they are not "contemplating" anything. They are doing it.
Secondly, I had seen two previous posts on this subject here that had generated great discussion, and thought that the membership would find this interesting. If I wanted to add commentary like "Oh look at those leftys being hypocrites" I very well could have. But I didn't.
I'm not sure what I think of this, but I do know that this is as nonpartisan of an issue as you get. Neither party wants bad press, or people to turn focus from the image they are trying to present to the nation. Has more to do with public relations than ideology.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 12:07 AM on February 21, 2004
Guerilla protesting.
Banners that say "This politician/party is great" on a false front, and "This politician/part is evil" underneath.
When they arrest you, you say that all the people praising the politician/party were freely expressing, so you obviously were in a free-speech zone.
They play dirty, you play sneaky (until they get their arses kicked in court for pulling this shit, that is.)
(That's going to happen someday soon, right?)
posted by Blue Stone at 2:07 AM on February 21, 2004
Banners that say "This politician/party is great" on a false front, and "This politician/part is evil" underneath.
When they arrest you, you say that all the people praising the politician/party were freely expressing, so you obviously were in a free-speech zone.
They play dirty, you play sneaky (until they get their arses kicked in court for pulling this shit, that is.)
(That's going to happen someday soon, right?)
posted by Blue Stone at 2:07 AM on February 21, 2004
Mr. Timoney is coming. The Miami Model will be implemented.
posted by grimley at 6:57 AM on February 21, 2004
posted by grimley at 6:57 AM on February 21, 2004
And Mayor Curley's attitude is very rational and mature. I appreciate that.
So do the thugs who run the country. They wish everyone were like Mayor Curley.
posted by languagehat at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2004
So do the thugs who run the country. They wish everyone were like Mayor Curley.
posted by languagehat at 7:57 AM on February 21, 2004
S@L,
For once I wholeheartedly agree with you. The attacks you've received in this thread are completely baseless and antagonistic. This is something that should have been posted as there are a great deal of us who dislike both sides of the political spectrum equally.
So now after the Republicans have plowed through our freedoms the Democrats hope to dislodge them and nestle down in their spot. Tsk. Tsk. Boo.
posted by velacroix at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2004
For once I wholeheartedly agree with you. The attacks you've received in this thread are completely baseless and antagonistic. This is something that should have been posted as there are a great deal of us who dislike both sides of the political spectrum equally.
So now after the Republicans have plowed through our freedoms the Democrats hope to dislodge them and nestle down in their spot. Tsk. Tsk. Boo.
posted by velacroix at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2004
So do the thugs who run the country. They wish everyone were like Mayor Curley.
No, they absolutely don't care. I assume that cops love it because it gives them plenty of overtime and politicians are barely conscious of it.
My argument is very rational-- it's based on the observation that people protest for everything, and yet nothing ever changes.
I speak from personal experience. My parents were activists, and I've marched against a nuclear plant several times, defended abortion clinics (which is an exception because it's actually effective) and marched on the picket lines of unions that I didn't belong to. Know what? Things got worse. So, while in my early 20's, I decided to stop setting myself up for disappointment.
Know what else? I can tell you the demographics of any political protest. It will be 25% idealists who belong there; 25% pathetic Jeff Lebowskis; 25% morons who have never read anything even tangentally related to the topic except "Rage Against The Machine" liner notes and want to break shit; and 25% faux-idealists who are really just looking to fuck a hippie chick.
The only ones who will ever make a difference to anyone are the ones cynically trying to get laid. And even then the odds are pretty poor.
I've met some really amazing people at rallies and protests, but that's not supposed to be the point, is it? Face facts-- folks will show up, folks will wave signs, folks will yell wince-inducing chants and then the Party of the People will continue on their march towards sameness with the Republicans and there's not a thing we can do about it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:08 AM on February 21, 2004
No, they absolutely don't care. I assume that cops love it because it gives them plenty of overtime and politicians are barely conscious of it.
My argument is very rational-- it's based on the observation that people protest for everything, and yet nothing ever changes.
I speak from personal experience. My parents were activists, and I've marched against a nuclear plant several times, defended abortion clinics (which is an exception because it's actually effective) and marched on the picket lines of unions that I didn't belong to. Know what? Things got worse. So, while in my early 20's, I decided to stop setting myself up for disappointment.
Know what else? I can tell you the demographics of any political protest. It will be 25% idealists who belong there; 25% pathetic Jeff Lebowskis; 25% morons who have never read anything even tangentally related to the topic except "Rage Against The Machine" liner notes and want to break shit; and 25% faux-idealists who are really just looking to fuck a hippie chick.
The only ones who will ever make a difference to anyone are the ones cynically trying to get laid. And even then the odds are pretty poor.
I've met some really amazing people at rallies and protests, but that's not supposed to be the point, is it? Face facts-- folks will show up, folks will wave signs, folks will yell wince-inducing chants and then the Party of the People will continue on their march towards sameness with the Republicans and there's not a thing we can do about it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:08 AM on February 21, 2004
"My argument is very rational-- it's based on the observation that people protest for everything, and yet nothing ever changes."
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2004
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:47 AM on February 21, 2004
"My argument is very rational-- it's based on the observation that people protest for everything, and yet nothing ever changes."
posted by Skwirl at 6:06 AM on February 22, 2004
posted by Skwirl at 6:06 AM on February 22, 2004
George_Spiggott- Why didn't you link to a site about the Boston Massacre? It's about as timely.
Skwirl- Even earlier and competely alien situation to the topic at hand. And that one's largely a fairy tale anyway.
If the protestors take the party back, I'll buy everyone else in this thread an ice cream. I like my chances for no payout.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:58 AM on February 22, 2004
Skwirl- Even earlier and competely alien situation to the topic at hand. And that one's largely a fairy tale anyway.
If the protestors take the party back, I'll buy everyone else in this thread an ice cream. I like my chances for no payout.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:58 AM on February 22, 2004
I am cynically posting solely for the chance at free ice cream, for the same reason the 25% faux-idealists go to protests looking to fuck a hippie chick. "You know, it could happen."
posted by kindall at 11:24 AM on February 22, 2004
posted by kindall at 11:24 AM on February 22, 2004
MC, what does timeliness have to do with basic issues of free speech and free assembly? You approve of the past instances of dissent that helped create the way of life that you presently enjoy, but would deny it to anyone in the present, even, as you would have it, to the point of taking up a baton and cracking heads.
You're perfectly entitled to your personal disillusion but it's a terrible shame that you take it to the extreme of supporting the repression of others.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:31 AM on February 22, 2004
You're perfectly entitled to your personal disillusion but it's a terrible shame that you take it to the extreme of supporting the repression of others.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:31 AM on February 22, 2004
what does timeliness have to do with basic issues of free speech and free assembly?
My contention has always been that things are now well beyond the point where screeching and waving signs will do any good. I'm serious about my previous comment-- if you give me democracy, I'll buy you a delicious ice cream. And we both know that you're not getting an ice cream.
it's a terrible shame that you take it to the extreme of supporting the repression of others
Oh, how my heart sings! Those kids with disposable incomes and free time enough to attend a protest! They're just like Solzhenitsyn or Wei Jingsheng!
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:25 PM on February 22, 2004
My contention has always been that things are now well beyond the point where screeching and waving signs will do any good. I'm serious about my previous comment-- if you give me democracy, I'll buy you a delicious ice cream. And we both know that you're not getting an ice cream.
it's a terrible shame that you take it to the extreme of supporting the repression of others
Oh, how my heart sings! Those kids with disposable incomes and free time enough to attend a protest! They're just like Solzhenitsyn or Wei Jingsheng!
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:25 PM on February 22, 2004
Mayor Curley - Most of those Boston protestors will fit that bill of yours. But some will not - some will be solidly blue collar and not so well off at all. There actually (believe it or not) exist a number of left leaning counterparts of those '68 Chicago cops who clubbed so many of their fellow citizens.
In other words - some protestors are not hippies ! : Would you have these clubbed as well, or only the hippies? And which image/cultural arbitrars shall we employ to abitrate the club, and to determine - based on hippieness, I suppose - who should be clubbed or not?
posted by troutfishing at 8:03 PM on February 22, 2004
In other words - some protestors are not hippies ! : Would you have these clubbed as well, or only the hippies? And which image/cultural arbitrars shall we employ to abitrate the club, and to determine - based on hippieness, I suppose - who should be clubbed or not?
posted by troutfishing at 8:03 PM on February 22, 2004
Steve_at_Linnwood - Frankly, I can't not react to this - even if it gives you political ammunition. The truth will out, and the fallout will be, in the long run, for the best ( hey - isn't that a Nader line, or something? )
First, I'd invoke Phil Ochs here (on liberals) - "In America, there are many shades of political opinion - and the shadiest of these are the liberals" (cue Phil Ochs song) :
" E A E A
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
E C#m
Tears ran down my spine
E A E
And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy,
F#7 B7
As though I'd lost a father of mine.
E A E
But Malcolm X got what was coming -
G#m A
He got what he asked for this time.
E C#m A B7 E
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I go to civil rights rallies,
And I put down the old D.A.R. .
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy -
I hope every colored boy becomes a star !
But don't talk about revolution -
That's going a little bit too far.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I cheered when Humphrey was chosen.
My faith in the system restored.
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board.
And I love Puerto Ricans and Negros,
As long as they don't move next door.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
Oh, the people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame.
I can't understand how their minds work -
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children,
I hope the cops take down your name.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I read New Republic and Nation.
I've learned to take every view.
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew.
But when it comes to times like korea,
There's no one more red, white and blue.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I vote for the Democratic party.
They want the U.N. to be strong.
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts -
He sure gets me singing those songs.
And I'll send all the money you ask for,
But don't ask me to come on along.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal
Yes, once I was young and impulsive.
I wore every conceivable pin.
Even went to the socialist meetings -
Learned all the old union hymns.
But I've grown older and wiser,
And that's why I'm turning you in.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal."
Jebeezus - I sound like Mayor Curley through the looking glass. Well then, so be it.
Mass. liberals have their not-so-secret fascistic tendencies : many such find it distasteful to order others whacked over the head with clubs - and the thought of doing so personally is even more unsavory to these types. But public order and public propriety are deeply held puritan values.
Massachusians ("Bay Staters" ?) compensate with more clinical but equally nasty tactics and so - in the end - it amounts to the same thing.
But, Steve - I have to admire well chosen Rorschach Test posting. You did well refraining from editorial comments - which others provided in your stead and to great effect.
_______________________________________________
In a left or a right leaning state equally, circumscribed "Free Speech" zones are bullshit authoritarian devices.
Period.
I generally sympathize with liberals, but less so when they claim that their shit smells better than anyone elses' .
It does not.
That said, GO KERRY !
posted by troutfishing at 8:37 PM on February 22, 2004
First, I'd invoke Phil Ochs here (on liberals) - "In America, there are many shades of political opinion - and the shadiest of these are the liberals" (cue Phil Ochs song) :
" E A E A
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
E C#m
Tears ran down my spine
E A E
And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy,
F#7 B7
As though I'd lost a father of mine.
E A E
But Malcolm X got what was coming -
G#m A
He got what he asked for this time.
E C#m A B7 E
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I go to civil rights rallies,
And I put down the old D.A.R. .
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy -
I hope every colored boy becomes a star !
But don't talk about revolution -
That's going a little bit too far.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I cheered when Humphrey was chosen.
My faith in the system restored.
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board.
And I love Puerto Ricans and Negros,
As long as they don't move next door.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
Oh, the people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame.
I can't understand how their minds work -
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children,
I hope the cops take down your name.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I read New Republic and Nation.
I've learned to take every view.
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew.
But when it comes to times like korea,
There's no one more red, white and blue.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal.
I vote for the Democratic party.
They want the U.N. to be strong.
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts -
He sure gets me singing those songs.
And I'll send all the money you ask for,
But don't ask me to come on along.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal
Yes, once I was young and impulsive.
I wore every conceivable pin.
Even went to the socialist meetings -
Learned all the old union hymns.
But I've grown older and wiser,
And that's why I'm turning you in.
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal."
Jebeezus - I sound like Mayor Curley through the looking glass. Well then, so be it.
Mass. liberals have their not-so-secret fascistic tendencies : many such find it distasteful to order others whacked over the head with clubs - and the thought of doing so personally is even more unsavory to these types. But public order and public propriety are deeply held puritan values.
Massachusians ("Bay Staters" ?) compensate with more clinical but equally nasty tactics and so - in the end - it amounts to the same thing.
But, Steve - I have to admire well chosen Rorschach Test posting. You did well refraining from editorial comments - which others provided in your stead and to great effect.
_______________________________________________
In a left or a right leaning state equally, circumscribed "Free Speech" zones are bullshit authoritarian devices.
Period.
I generally sympathize with liberals, but less so when they claim that their shit smells better than anyone elses' .
It does not.
That said, GO KERRY !
posted by troutfishing at 8:37 PM on February 22, 2004
Troutfishing is right: "free speech zones" are bullshit, no matter whom they're supposedly protecting.
The only big one I've seen up close was at the 2000 Democratic convention in LA -- the protesters were hemmed in by steel fencing, across a fairly wide street from the Staples Center. Delegates were certainly within earshot, though.
The best part was seeing the left-wing protesters and the right-wing protesters uneasily mixing in the same place. Like when the Rage Against the Machine fans met up with the people carrying the "Al Gore Is A Baby Killer" signs. Hilarity ensued.
posted by Vidiot at 9:35 PM on February 22, 2004
The only big one I've seen up close was at the 2000 Democratic convention in LA -- the protesters were hemmed in by steel fencing, across a fairly wide street from the Staples Center. Delegates were certainly within earshot, though.
The best part was seeing the left-wing protesters and the right-wing protesters uneasily mixing in the same place. Like when the Rage Against the Machine fans met up with the people carrying the "Al Gore Is A Baby Killer" signs. Hilarity ensued.
posted by Vidiot at 9:35 PM on February 22, 2004
The rest of Ochs' intro:
"In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. The shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects, ten degrees to left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally. So here then is a lesson in safe logic..."
the left-wing protesters and the right-wing protesters uneasily mixing
Heh...I was at a very small rally outside a Bush fundraiser recently. Eventually we got tired of one of the pro-Bush protestor's endless screaming of "Anti-Americans go home!" and drowned him out with "The Star-Spangled Banner" (meant it, too).
Those kids with disposable incomes and free time enough to attend a protest!
Yup, we're pretty lucky. Would trade it in a minute for the kind of world where working people had a true living wage and some modicum of leisure time in which to join us. Call me a marxist, but it's no accident that the people who would benefit most from reforms are kept without the resources to ask for them.
posted by hippugeek at 12:21 AM on February 23, 2004
"In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. The shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects, ten degrees to left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally. So here then is a lesson in safe logic..."
the left-wing protesters and the right-wing protesters uneasily mixing
Heh...I was at a very small rally outside a Bush fundraiser recently. Eventually we got tired of one of the pro-Bush protestor's endless screaming of "Anti-Americans go home!" and drowned him out with "The Star-Spangled Banner" (meant it, too).
Those kids with disposable incomes and free time enough to attend a protest!
Yup, we're pretty lucky. Would trade it in a minute for the kind of world where working people had a true living wage and some modicum of leisure time in which to join us. Call me a marxist, but it's no accident that the people who would benefit most from reforms are kept without the resources to ask for them.
posted by hippugeek at 12:21 AM on February 23, 2004
Well first off, Doctor, they are not "contemplating" anything. They are doing it.
You know something, Appliance Salesclerk? I'm not sure if you even read the fucking articles you post:
Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined....
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers...
Officials with the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU of Massachusetts plan to meet with Boston Police Department representatives in the weeks to come to ask that the plan be changed...
The disappointment in the preliminary plans....
Now, Appliance Salesclerk, before I refer you to www.dictionary.com for the remedial work you apparently need on those difficult underlined words, and before I refer you to the date function on your computer to give you the tiniest clue that it isn't summer and no Democratic convention has actually occured, why don't you tell us again where the real "free speech zones" have been over the past three years?
Oh. You didn't mention that in your front page post or in any of your other posts in this thread? I repeat: how odd. How partisan.
Frankly, Appliance Salesclerk, I don't care if you make a partisan front page post or partisan comments in the thread. But here's my point once more, for your benefit: when you throw a fit and try to hysterically, dishonestly deny it when you're called on it, you look pretty dishonest. I repeat: keep your silly, protestations of impartiality to yourself. They don't wash.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 2:06 AM on February 25, 2004
You know something, Appliance Salesclerk? I'm not sure if you even read the fucking articles you post:
Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined....
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers...
Officials with the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU of Massachusetts plan to meet with Boston Police Department representatives in the weeks to come to ask that the plan be changed...
The disappointment in the preliminary plans....
Now, Appliance Salesclerk, before I refer you to www.dictionary.com for the remedial work you apparently need on those difficult underlined words, and before I refer you to the date function on your computer to give you the tiniest clue that it isn't summer and no Democratic convention has actually occured, why don't you tell us again where the real "free speech zones" have been over the past three years?
Oh. You didn't mention that in your front page post or in any of your other posts in this thread? I repeat: how odd. How partisan.
Frankly, Appliance Salesclerk, I don't care if you make a partisan front page post or partisan comments in the thread. But here's my point once more, for your benefit: when you throw a fit and try to hysterically, dishonestly deny it when you're called on it, you look pretty dishonest. I repeat: keep your silly, protestations of impartiality to yourself. They don't wash.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 2:06 AM on February 25, 2004
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Is Bush even going to be there? What a slippery slope.
posted by jon_kill at 12:01 PM on February 20, 2004