September 7, 2000

7:56 AM

Today's world-gone-to-hell story: "Middle-class" teens kill delivery person to avoid paying for food.They left him to die with $600 in his pockets.
posted by rcade (35 comments total)

I'm glad the article listed what these kids ordered. I think that gave real insight into the criminal mind.

So there was another bag of food. Did they look to see which was theirs before or after they killed the guy? This article is very confusing.


posted by Doug at 8:12 AM on September 7, 2000

The government really ought to do something about this. Do you realize how many unregistered fists and bricks there are in Americas cities? Now if a mandatory 5-day waiting period for purchasing bricks had been in place, it would've given these children a chance to calm down and this senseless act of violence could've been avoided. ;)
posted by mildew at 8:31 AM on September 7, 2000

Sure, we *could* have fist registration and background checks prior to brick purchases...but I think we can all agree that a better approach would be to have me seize power and institute a dictatorial government. Once in power, I promise to institute nationwide death-squads, complete with roving execution trucks and Insta-Judge videoconferencing. Support me in my bid for absolute power, and I promise these children will suffer for their crimes!
posted by aramaic at 8:35 AM on September 7, 2000

This isn't exactly funny folks...
posted by meaning at 8:56 AM on September 7, 2000

A vote for Aramaic is realy a vote for George Bush! Please don't do it.
posted by thirteen at 8:56 AM on September 7, 2000

So, explain to me as a foreigner - Are the NRA and NBA in favour of guns and bricks respectively?
posted by Markb at 9:14 AM on September 7, 2000

Is anyone else reminded of the "Deliverator" passage at the beginning of Snow Crash? Maybe paired samurai swords should be standard issue for delivery personnel.
posted by harmful at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2000

No, it's not funny at all.

A man living out the 'American Dream' is brutally murdered. It's a tragic and most disturbing story.

But of course, on the occaision that a crime of the nature is committed without a gun - a rare occurrance - the gun nuts are all over it, making their usual inane arguments.

It's sickening.

posted by aladfar at 10:15 AM on September 7, 2000

That story upset me greatly and the actions of those children disappointed me. I'm glad I read these comments though, now I feel much better!

Perhaps the off-handed way in which these occurences are often handled lessened the 'This is Terribly Wrong' thoughts that should have gone through these children's heads?
posted by Mick at 10:21 AM on September 7, 2000

A vote for aladfar is really a vote for Bush, please do not vote for aladfar!
posted by thirteen at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2000

The way you gun nuts have jumped all over this story to make a political point, I'm beginning to think it was a hired killing funded by some kind of NRA outreach program.
posted by rcade at 11:40 AM on September 7, 2000

The funny thing is, I'd like to consider myself pro-second amendment, and think I have sane, rational beliefs, but the NRA and gun nuts in America give this point of view such a bad name I'm almost embarrassed. Their arrogance and just general smarmy nature are something I'd really not like to be associated with.


posted by Doug at 11:55 AM on September 7, 2000

Which gun nuts? I don't even own a weapon -- all I want to do is acquire absolute power, immediately execute these kids (they're obviously monsters), and then go on a Stalin-style binge of devastation and mass oppression. Surely, in this day and age, all civilized peoples can agree that I ought to wield supreme power.
posted by aramaic at 12:12 PM on September 7, 2000

I thought we decided the American dream was playing all nine positions in a single baseball game?

posted by luke at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2000

be careful aramaic - the true goals of your left leaning are showing. I admit though, it is refreshing to see someone on the left admit their eerie similarity to Stalin (and other dictators of that era).
After all - isn't it the liberals that propose a government that controls everything from health care and firearms to automobile emissions and school lunches? :)

Honestly, this is a tragedy and I'm as upset as anyone that this did happen. My prayers are with the family of the victim (and the offenders & their families as well).

I see my comment has really changed the emphasis of the discussion here. That really wasn't my intent, and in hindsight, I should've waited. I don't mind a good discussion of values/morality/religion/politics, but this might not be the best news item to start with.

Apologies.
posted by mildew at 1:50 PM on September 7, 2000

Me, a Lefty? Hey, I claim no specific agenda -- I just wanna have jackbooted thugs work my will among the populace. Remember: the only true morality is derived from the absolute amorality of power. My unyielding dominion over all I survey is a goal that I think people of every creed can agree on, regardless of political beliefs.
posted by aramaic at 2:05 PM on September 7, 2000

I just hope that, once banged up, the culprits are forced to make food deliveries to the inmates in solitary confinement. Without a guard present.
posted by holgate at 2:15 PM on September 7, 2000

Plug me into the Metaverse and let me practice slaying people in Pizza delivery style, while I 'poon' a ride.....SnowCrash meets real world. Same thing happened a couple years ago with pizza deliveries, so now they only carry less than $20. As for solutions, find out how much your really make bringing the food to them or else all will be dine in or carry out.
posted by brent at 4:44 PM on September 7, 2000

Are the NRA and NBA in favour of guns and bricks respectively?

How does the NBA come into this?
posted by sudama at 6:36 PM on September 7, 2000

I love how the inexplicable actions of some tenagers forces a handful of satirical posts, because there's really nothing else to say and some people need to post. That somehow degenerates into a political discussion. The jokes I can live with but the pathetic "political" commentary is deserving of a birck and fist barage.
posted by skallas at 8:15 PM on September 7, 2000

Harmful: You mean like Ninja Burger does?
posted by endquote at 8:23 PM on September 7, 2000

Oh, give me a break...
posted by harmful at 9:02 PM on September 7, 2000

Harmful: Yer second link was sicker than the first. It makes me crazy when people say things like the tender age of 17. 17 is not young. There were 17 year olds commanding men in WWII. If you are old enough to drive and consent to sex, you are old enough to know you can't go aroung crushing skulls. If you don't know that, should have known, and you are still responsible. icky all around.
posted by thirteen at 9:14 PM on September 7, 2000

Just to clarify, most parts of St. Albans and Springfield Gardens in South Jamica, Queens are not "middle class" by any means. These are working class Black neighborhoods. These people are not "middle class" by New York standards.

Earlier this year I worked for a while for an exploratory team of a person who is trying to run for the New York City Council seat from South Jamica. I had to ride a bus through the neighborhood where this murder took place to get to the district. Most people are rather God fearing and peacefull.

The CNN/AP news wire report does not say this, but it was reported in the local Fox 5 news broadcast last night that the neighbors helped the police locate and capture the five teen agers. Fox 5 also named them. This Newsday article has the names and more details of the incedent.

I think the community has done a great job of co-operating with the police and keeping peace within and has not let this turn into something racially charged. Things are very tricky in New York.
posted by tamim at 10:36 PM on September 7, 2000

How can you tell, from the window of a bus, that the residents of a neighborhood are God fearing? What does that even mean?
posted by sudama at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2000

If you are old enough to drive and consent to sex, you are old enough to know you can't go aroung crushing skulls.

The article Harmful pointed to didn't claim the teenagers didn't know right from wrong. The article pointed out that, duh, these kids doubtless didn't intend to KILL the guy when they beat him up. The five of them almost certainly didn't realize that all of them together hitting the man would actually end his life. In the original story, they say the 14 year old hit the delivery man on the head with the brick in what was probably the killing blow. What does a 14 year old know about his own strength? What 14 year old imagines he could actually kill someone with a brick?

It's fallacious to characterize this as a cold-blooded murder when it seems likely that the perpetrators didn't intend to kill anyone. They're guilty of manslaughter, and of terrible stupidity.
posted by wiremommy at 2:21 PM on September 8, 2000

When I was 14 I managed to avoid beating people with bricks. I was also well aware that a brick to the head could kill. Perhaps you are right, and they thought they were giving him a full body massage. Did Harmful's second link actualy make you feel better about this incident? It seemed like speculation, and we have no idea if they intended to kill or not, it seems it did not keep them from eating afterword. In the end, they murdered, they are murderers.
posted by thirteen at 2:35 PM on September 8, 2000

When I was 14 I managed to avoid beating people with bricks. I was also well aware that a brick to the head could kill.

Yay for you! But think back to your peers at age 14-- how many of them would understand that you can kill someone that easily? How many of them even understood the reality of death? Most people don't fully grasp the finality of death until adulthood; some don't really get it until they go through a midlife crisis.

A large chunk of teenagers don't understand human frailty; they don't fear death because they have no real comprehension of it. They drive recklessly, they beat the crap out of each other, they drink deadly amounts of alcohol. We limit the freedom of all teenagers largely because of this sizable chunk of teens who ignorantly risk their own lives and the lives of others. I knew several people in high school who drove like idiots, rolled their cars over, wound up hospitalized, were lucky to live through it-- and two unlucky ones who were killed.

Teenagers are capable of premeditated murder. Teenagers are capable of evil. But when a bunch of teenagers pulls what is essentially a childish mugging to scam some free food, and a man winds up dead, is it realistic to assume that those teenagers malevolently beat the man with the intent to murder him? Do you really think they knew he was dead when they ran away to eat their stolen food?

I don't think they meant to kill him; I don't think they realized he was dead. At this point we just don't have facts to say one way or the other, but from what has been revealed so far, I don't think they knew. I think they should be held responsible for the mugging, for assault and for manslaughter, but I don't think they are guilty of murder.
posted by wiremommy at 4:07 PM on September 8, 2000

Yes indeed, Yay for me! And yay for you growing up in a place where your friends were not dying all the time. The park near where I grew up was a popular place to dump bodies. After I was 12 there was not a school year where 1 or 3 of my classmates were not killed, more and more by my fellow students as I got older. I know more about mortality than you ever will. I have seen people shot in front of me, I even saw an old woman get decapitated. Yer totally dizzy if you think these kids didn't know what they were doing, they threw a blanket party with a brick. I think there was lots of blood, and I think they ate that food with a pretty good idea that guy was dead. A brick is a knife is a gun, if he swung it, he was using a weapon to kill. Even if they didn't plan it, intentions are meaningless, results are all that matter. Again,I feel bad for the dead guy, you feel bad for the killers, again.
Tell more stories about your drunk friends, they make me feel warm and fuzzy. sXe!
posted by thirteen at 4:39 PM on September 8, 2000

Sudama:"How can you tell, from the window of a bus, that the residents of a neighborhood are God fearing? What does that even mean?"

First of all, there are well maintained churches lining the route. Secondly, as part of the exploration of the district, I did have to walk around in other parts of St. Albans / Springfield Gardens and talk with people. (Hillary did not invent the "listening tour.")

I think I define "God fearing" to be a person who practices his faith and bases his actions on the words of his "Lord."
posted by tamim at 7:59 PM on September 8, 2000

So it's a pretty literal phrase. I never had any idea. Thanks.
posted by sudama at 9:14 PM on September 8, 2000

Let's be realistic -- even if a 14 year old doesn't know that weilding a brick can kill, he knows that it will hurt and hurt gravely. Don't cry me a river over a 14 year old who acted with the sole intention of bringing serious injury to an innocent man.

And fry the little bastard.
posted by Dreama at 8:21 PM on September 9, 2000

The fact that people so far reomoved from the actual crime can form such strong opinions with little-to-no information amuses me.

On the other hand, the recent news that the same thing is happening in Texas is a bit disturbing.
posted by Lirp at 9:25 PM on September 9, 2000

Gary Graham. Does anybody miss Gary Graham? Do his victims miss him? Do his victims feel better now that he is dead? For the record, if I am ever murdered, I would like the killer to be run through a meat slicer.
I thought we had pretty good information here. Could it have been an accident? everyone stumbled as they tried to return the man's sheet and brick?
posted by thirteen at 10:06 PM on September 9, 2000