Extra points for not using the word Monkeyfilter

April 13, 2004 2:09 PM

Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of bullies and bad habits.Among a troop of savanna baboons in Kenya, a terrible outbreak of tuberculosis 20 years ago selectively killed off the biggest, nastiest and most despotic males... With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit. "And if baboons can do it, why not us? The bad news is that you might have to first knock out all the most aggressive males to get there." Wishful thinking from nerdy academics, or a harbinger of our future?
posted by soyjoy (15 comments total)

Except what happens when a marauding male baboon from a neighbouring territory decided to wander in and take over?
posted by PenDevil at 2:14 PM on April 13, 2004

BaboonFilter
posted by pizzasub at 2:21 PM on April 13, 2004

Apparently, one of the head female raps him on the knuckles and tells him to "stop monkeying around."
posted by NedKoppel at 2:23 PM on April 13, 2004

Why am I immediately reminded of this Simpsons episode?
posted by krakedhalo at 2:27 PM on April 13, 2004

And if baboons can do it, why not us?

The article tells us about a really interesting scientific finding. One should be careful about projecting findings from the animal kingdom onto human society, however. For example, we humans feel our society works best without rape and infanticide, while those practices are important parts of some animals' social order.
posted by Triplanetary at 2:28 PM on April 13, 2004

And if baboons can do it, why not us?

Because the same impulses which lead me to be, while not a pure pacifist, one who endorses violence only as a very last resort, also lead me to be one who rejects a solution which involves "knock[ing] out all the most aggressive males."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:39 PM on April 13, 2004

One should be careful about projecting findings from the animal kingdom onto human society, however.

I agree, Triplanetary. Reading through it, it seemed like the scientists wanted so much for this to work as an allegory, it made me wonder how applicable it really would be, and how much of what's going on is colored by their perceptions.

Conversely, though, if an animal society can change this radically in the course of a decade or two, it raises the question of how much we really know about animal societies in general, vs. just the ones we've closely observed, at the time we were observing them.
posted by soyjoy at 2:42 PM on April 13, 2004

"Dr. Sapolsky has no idea how long the good times will last. "I confess I'm rooting for the troop to stay like this forever, but I worry about how vulnerable they may be," he said. "All it would take is two or three jerky adolescent males entering at the same time to tilt the balance and destroy the culture.""

Baboons didn't get where they are today in the evolutionary landscape by playing nice and friendly; if they did, then the big aggressive males would all have been nice and friendly.
posted by Blue Stone at 2:44 PM on April 13, 2004

"With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit. "And if baboons can do it, why not us?"

It hasn't already happened?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:48 PM on April 13, 2004

"....what happens when a marauding male baboon from a neighbouring territory decided to wander in and take over?" - Pendevil, you've just destroyed my dreams of a pacifistic utopia filled with sensitive metrosexual males.

"And if baboons can do it, why not us? The bad news is that you might have to first knock out all the most aggressive males to get there." - but this does sound promising......I have a plan!

We'll encourage men to eat lots of soy, and flood the environment with chemicals that mimic estrogen! Hey, wait a minute.....
posted by troutfishing at 2:54 PM on April 13, 2004

Craaab people... craaaaab people...
posted by Pink Fuzzy Bunny at 3:40 PM on April 13, 2004

It's been 20 years since this occurred, so the marauding male thing evidently isn't a factor. More plausible would one or two "transfer males" entering the group and refusing to play by the rules. But the interesting thing is that as a survival model, this seems to work out great: instead of a "survival of the fittest" passing-along-the-strong-genes thing, all the members of the tribe are in better condition physically because of the lower levels of stress related ailments.

The actual research article is here, and it brings up an interesting point of conjecture: it could be that young males leaving this tribe to join a traditional troop may find themselves at a disadvantage, but on the other hand, two males from this group joining another troop might actually have a competitive edge, and could even transmit this style of social interaction.
posted by taz at 3:50 PM on April 13, 2004

very old news
posted by firestorm at 9:08 PM on April 14, 2004

"The article tells us about a really interesting scientific finding. One should be careful about projecting findings from the animal kingdom onto human society, however. For example, we humans feel our society works best without rape and infanticide, while those practices are important parts of some animals' social order."

Well, you can just say that we are the 'nice' ones who denounce rape and infanticide, and it just so happens that the general kind of humans who tend to denounce such things show an overall advantage against those who, might love doing such. Who might ? Nobody human, anymore, but a deviant.

"Baboons didn't get where they are today in the evolutionary landscape by playing nice and friendly; if they did, then the big aggressive males would all have been nice and friendly."

Except that this troop IS nice and friendly, and they are nice and friendly because being nice and friendly was adaptive for their ancestors.
posted by firestorm at 9:12 PM on April 14, 2004

"It's been 20 years since this occurred, so the marauding male thing evidently isn't a factor. More plausible would one or two "transfer males" entering the group and refusing to play by the rules. But the interesting thing is that as a survival model, this seems to work out great: instead of a "survival of the fittest" passing-along-the-strong-genes thing, all the members of the tribe are in better condition physically because of the lower levels of stress related ailments.

The actual research article is here, and it brings up an interesting point of conjecture: it could be that young males leaving this tribe to join a traditional troop may find themselves at a disadvantage, but on the other hand, two males from this group joining another troop might actually have a competitive edge, and could even transmit this style of social interaction."

Yes, it is interesting to see evolution in the making. Simplistically and theoretically, for generations baboons have been mean. Now, there is this new society that arose luckily. And this peace loving society confers huge advantages, that displace all the rest.. would be textbook example of evolution, and a parallel to the development of modern humans
posted by firestorm at 9:14 PM on April 14, 2004