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What Did Jesus Do?!
April 21, 2004 8:34 PM   Subscribe

I shared life's Growing Pains with him, and even winced through a video taped copy of Left Behind after finding the books interesting enough, but even my Christian friends think that this is just plain over the top. Ah, the born-again B-list celebrity.
posted by robbie01 (83 comments total)

 
Its not the religion thats wrong, its how people use it.
posted by Keyser Soze at 8:35 PM on April 21, 2004


I don't see anything outrageous about the guy's preaching - it seems like fairly typical evangelical rhetoric to me (I'm thinking of the campus preachers etc. I've encountered and comparing what I read to them). The Flash site, on the other hand, is hilarious. I liked it when the logos boomed into place with cavernous reverb, and there are these kind of kung-fu punch sounds every time you change pages. Is it the marketing that your Christian friends don't like, or just that the site is so overdone and the whole tone is kind of cheesy? I didn't check out the prices for the courses...
posted by crunchburger at 8:47 PM on April 21, 2004


Oh, such an excellent domain name, and such disappointing content.
It strikes me as a little odd that if you say "No, I'm not Christian", it tries to make you worry about hell and salvation. Wouldn't you have already, you know, discounted that?
I'm not sure that the rest of the site is that bad, though.
posted by mote at 8:53 PM on April 21, 2004


I suppose it's the insanely over-produced website mixed with the, uh, poignant copywriting. I've never heard an entire website narrated before. But, jeez, the intro alone makes me want to make rescuing my family from a hell a high priority. If Cameron weren't a self-professed born-again Christian, I'd say this site was a gag. And there's a TV show, too?!
posted by robbie01 at 8:54 PM on April 21, 2004


Maybe I've just lowered my expectations for this kind of thing over the years. I did cheat on the commandment part....
posted by crunchburger at 8:56 PM on April 21, 2004


If it was trying to convert me, it failed. A Chick tract is more entertaining/scary, and has the same aim, no?
posted by amberglow at 8:56 PM on April 21, 2004


Its about 60 bucks for the set of VHS tapes. Not too bad considering the price of Tony Robbins stuff. Sheesh.

Did you go to the "I am not a christian" button and get taken through the 10 commandments. Whee! I am a sinner!

The whole way it is structured is:

Here are the rules. You, being human, have broken one. Therefore, according to this book, you are going to hell. As a Christian, I must try and save you from this hell stuff. To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Ta-da!

Ok, great. But. I guess my big irritation with some religion is the inability to get to God through any road but the one the religion is handing you. I cannot, according to Christianity, get to heaven through Hinduism or Taoism or via just about any other -ism.

How the Bible is any more valid than the Koran is maybe a question for AxeMe, but I have problems with vehement belief systems based on a single book.
posted by jopreacher at 9:07 PM on April 21, 2004


I'm changing my ID to BornAgainHippy. Be right back.
posted by NewBornHippy at 9:12 PM on April 21, 2004


good to see Boner Stabone is still working these days.
posted by shoepal at 9:17 PM on April 21, 2004


Is this an Al-Qaeda sponsored site designed to make Christians look bad?
posted by troutfishing at 9:18 PM on April 21, 2004


It could be worse. Much, much worse.
posted by bdk3clash at 9:24 PM on April 21, 2004


jopreacher, it does bother me that the entire pitch is based totally on self-interest - better save your ass! - and fear of purported metaphysical punishment. That, to me, (a non-believer) is hardly the finest that religion has to offer, and I imagine that many Christian ministers spend most of their energy trying to get people beyond that deal-making theology into something that is a deeper or more authentic Christianity.

It does seem that eternal-life-with-Heaven-and-Hell is just a given for a lot of these guys, and that's all they've got to get people's attention. I think they've worked themselves to a point where they see the existence of God and the immortality (and existence) of the soul as logically identical notions, and probably self-evident ones. Which, of course, they are not. So, they are quite unable to engage a sceptic who doesn't halfway agree with them already.
posted by crunchburger at 9:25 PM on April 21, 2004


They stole those "yes" and "no" samples from Tron.
posted by sklero at 9:30 PM on April 21, 2004


good to see Boner Stabone is still working these days.

Whoa, check out that hair. In a perfect world, celebrity boxing would've matched Boner Stabone v. Waldo Geraldo Faldo.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:31 PM on April 21, 2004


Man, that is one ethnically-implausible family they trot out as examples of people who aren't saved. "Your father?" Black guy. "Your sister?" Blonde white girl. "Your mother?" Asian woman. Okay, I can buy that some hypothetical guy is half-black and half-Asian and and his sister is adopted.

But that's not my family... which is who Kirk's asking me to think of.
posted by kindall at 9:33 PM on April 21, 2004


I was just at this site the other day - I had caught the television show while flipping channels, and googled around, trying to find out what the heck it was.

The show I saw had Ray and Kirk outdoors, next to a creek, and Kirk was hiding behind some shrubbery, because he was shy. Ray was cajoling him into coming out from behind said shrubbery, telling him he could start conversations with people about God by asking where they went to church.

It was ... I dunno. I used to have a magazine pic of him playing air guitar on Growing Pains taped up inside my locker in junior high.

I am totally bound for Gehenna, according to the website, btw.
posted by wells at 9:37 PM on April 21, 2004


From the "not a Christian" section: "Jesus said to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength--so much, that your love for your parents, brothers and sisters, friends, and even your own life is like hatred compared to your love and devotion for God."

Did Jesus really say that? I remember "love your neighbour" and "love your enemy", but I don't remember "love me way, way, way more". It sounds a bit crazy. I'd like a verse reference on that one.
posted by teg at 9:42 PM on April 21, 2004


jopreacher,

the bible is a collection of books.

and to decide which is most valid, the Tora, Bible, or Koran start with what they have in common.
posted by Recockulous at 9:42 PM on April 21, 2004


Is it any more annoying than Bob Barker and his crusade to have pets spayed and neutered? Ok, maybe it is.
posted by scarabic at 9:43 PM on April 21, 2004


It looks like none of you are good enough to go to heaven.
posted by rhyax at 9:47 PM on April 21, 2004


It could be worse. Much, much worse.
posted by bdk3clash at 9:24 PM PST on April 21


Not PARKER!!!

(throws self prostrate on floor, weeping)
posted by Guy Smiley at 9:51 PM on April 21, 2004


I liked the slick flash site. The little talking Kirk was cool. I wish he was my search assistant.
posted by smackfu at 9:54 PM on April 21, 2004


Matthew 10:34-39
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
   " 'a man against his father,
       a daughter against her mother,
   a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
        a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


the quoted part is a reference to Micah 7:6

don't think i am crazy or anything, i just had to go to a lot of bible classes ;)
posted by rhyax at 9:56 PM on April 21, 2004


hey, as long as it keeps kirk out of the real entertainment industry, this project of his is a good thing. very annoying site design tho'.

Matthew 10:34-39

good grief, what a nasty little prick. no wonder so many people don't feel this god is worthy of devotion.
posted by t r a c y at 10:13 PM on April 21, 2004


Thanks, Rhyax. We didn't spend a lot of time on that passage in Sunday School for some reason.
posted by teg at 10:29 PM on April 21, 2004


From gentle Jesus to macho Messiah
posted by homunculus at 10:41 PM on April 21, 2004


: "Warrior Jesus" will make your unbelieving heart pop out right through your sternum. But you won't be dead, and so he'll then skewer you on a spit and hurl you into the fires of hell, to be BBQ'ed for all eternity.

Warrior Jesus dispenses "tough love".
posted by troutfishing at 10:52 PM on April 21, 2004


I got a Jesus action figure for my birthday. It has "poseable arms & gliding action". I'm going to hell.
posted by whatever at 12:10 AM on April 22, 2004


Good to see fanatical fundamentalism is on the rise again.

Now, since I'm a naughty, naughty boy, will I go to Gehenna, the Christian Hell, the Muslim Hell or will I be reborn a snail?
Perhaps I, due to ancestry, will go to Hel (where vikings not slain in honorable battle end up)?

Nah, I think I'll give it a miss and just, you know, rot.
posted by spazzm at 12:55 AM on April 22, 2004


I knew when I wrote my post I was going to be told it was a collection. Always listen to the inner voice.

The 'love god so much that you have hatred for everyone else' thing reminded me of the marine corps. I remember being in the DEP and having that same speech from a sgt. with the corps substituted for God once. Of course, God WAS above the corps in the speech, but still. It made my girlfriend want to wretch when she heard it.

(This is funnier when you know I am a girl.)

I'll stick to the "If I am going to hell, I am going for something good" mantra.
posted by jopreacher at 1:12 AM on April 22, 2004


I'm not clicking on either one, but I could mouse between "yes" and "no" and make Kirk my little dancing monkey for days.
posted by dong_resin at 2:35 AM on April 22, 2004


Yes, you're my little Brillo-haired bitch, aren't you.
Dance for dong resin, you whore. DANCE.
posted by dong_resin at 2:37 AM on April 22, 2004


All in all, Bibleman is a healthy guy in Spandex.
posted by Smart Dalek at 3:13 AM on April 22, 2004


Speaking as an atheist with an evangelical minister/missionary sister, I'd like to point out that not all evangelical proselytizing depends upon the "fire and brimstone" rhetoric. My sister, for example, is very oriented towards the positive side of things, including eschewing the "I'm opposed to you bad people" rhetoric that is so common from Christian conservatives. (Also, I should mention that although my sister probably considers herself a Christian conservative; it is definitely the case that there is a thriving leftist Christian evangelical community in the US and elsewhere.)

In her community, she and her husband are highly respected and expected to eventually be very influential within the Christian evangelical community. They both are astonishingly good and good-hearted people. Anyway, I said to her recently that my wish is that she and her husband would become powerful forces within the evangelical community for fighting against the hate rhetoric and mindset that I think is poisoning American civic life.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:52 AM on April 22, 2004


Don't miss the point, which is that Christians don't want people to go to hell. I, for example, would much rather hang out with all of y'all for eternity...(actually, there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and our ultimate destination is the new earth. But till then heaven's more than way cool.)

Now THAT would be a Mefi meetup...
posted by konolia at 4:55 AM on April 22, 2004


I suspect that you may be pretty lonely at that meetup, konolia ....

The whole site is pretty innocuous, in my opinion (although I had the audio off), but it perpetuates the selfishness that is displayed by most evangelists - don't be a christian or obey the word of God because it is right to treat yourself and others with respect, do it so that you personally will benefit by going to heaven. I know that is a bit simplistic, but it is the basic message that I see from the whole born-again crowd.
posted by dg at 5:15 AM on April 22, 2004


I like these Christians better than Kirk.
posted by amberglow at 5:41 AM on April 22, 2004


man.

holy shit.
posted by glenwood at 5:42 AM on April 22, 2004


What has always me away about this kind of conversion attempts is the total myopia, the total absence of any acknowledgement that someone, somewhere, might not automatically believe in the literal truth of the bible. If you're going to proselytize, offer peace, offer hope, but don't expect to sway a whole lot of people by telling them that a book somewhere says they're going to burn for all eternity. It's so circular, you know? You need to believe me, because if you believe me, it's clear that you're going to hell if you don't believe me.

And then I realized that this kind of stuff isn't for the benefit of the non-believer. No one's really expecting any kind of meaningful conversion from crap like this -- it's all about self congratulation and self righteousness.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 6:01 AM on April 22, 2004


OK, I took the Ten Commandments "test" for non-Christians. Twice. The first time, I answered guilty to all. The second time, innocent. Not surprisingly, both times I ended up in hell. Oh well.

Then again, I realized I haven't actually broken as many commandments as I thought. Technically, I don't worship any other god ahead of the Christian one, nor do I worship any idols (including the crucifix). So that must count for something right?

(flips through pages)

Nope, still going to hell. Oh, well. See you all there!
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:41 AM on April 22, 2004


I like this Kirk better than that Kirk.
posted by brownpau at 6:45 AM on April 22, 2004


As much as I dislike this kind of wacky-ward level religious fanaticism, I gotta admit to a weird respect for Kirk Cameron. The guy had what many young men dream of: fame, money, women at his beck and call. He coulda gone on to become yet another bloated dope-addled Hollywood lowlife a la Adam Rich but he turned his back on it, because he wanted something deeper.

The sad part is he seems to have made the wrong choice.
posted by jonmc at 7:05 AM on April 22, 2004


What the hell is that, bdk3clash?

 I began the process of taking on this present physical form in February of 1971 and was born into this world on November 5 of that same year.

Staggering.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 7:14 AM on April 22, 2004


LittleMissCranky -- you are on to something, of course, but not exactly the right thing.

The main thrust of Evangelical evangelism in the developed world is not to win over atheists and agnostics, what have you, but to bring over people who were raised and think of themselves already as Christian, but either don't practice, or practice some variety which Evangelicals deem unacceptably soft (say, mainstream Lutheranism or Presbyterianism) or materially erroneous (Catholicism, Adventism).

In that context, quoting and reemphasizing the Bible isn't self-defeatingly circular, but exceptionally powerful. The central move in Evangelical spirtitual formation is "asking Jesus into your heart" (or, its variation "accepting Jesus as your savior." The only people who do that are people who are already inclined to believe in Christian theology and Biblical truth.

Evangelical missionaries to the Third World have a really different m.o. However, they have a very different audience, which responds well to a Biblically-centered message. Generally speaking, the kind of secular agnosticism / irreligion which is so common in the developed world is pretty hard to find there. There, people are convinced of the need to rely upon some ancient text and faith and it's really a battle of which ancient text and faith is better and generates better results. The Gospels of the New Testament are exceptionally direct and impactful in tone, narrative and message, and the entry-level theology derived from them is powerful and simple. All of the vast prosperity and power of America is attributed to the benefits of church-going Christianity, and that's pretty compelling, too.
posted by MattD at 7:25 AM on April 22, 2004


A coworker and I were looking at all the pictures and I was saying its funny that Kirk was with mostly different nationalities. He says because if he was with white people then all they would do would say "Hey, aren't you that dude from 'Growing Pains'". I actually sent this link to HowardStern.com. They used to have these ABC execs in who told stories of when Kirk was on Growing Pains and would start in with the religious stuff and how he got that girl who was on the show, who also did Playboy, fired.
posted by LouieLoco at 7:38 AM on April 22, 2004


The guy had what many young men dream of: fame, money, women at his beck and call.

Doesn't he get, like, 40 virgins when he dies or something?
posted by jpoulos at 8:00 AM on April 22, 2004


jpoulos, I'm not supporting what the website says, just saying that Cameron pretty much had the world by the balls, by the average young American male's standards and he chose to turn his back on it. And he didn't have much to gain and a lot to lose.* And he chose to follow what he believes instead. I gotta admire the resolve of that on a certain level.

*yes, I realize that he's a celebrity(probably fairly well-paid) among the Christian entertainment market, but he already had mainstream celebrity which had to be more lucrative and rewarding in the worldly sense.
posted by jonmc at 8:22 AM on April 22, 2004


Hey, I just noticed their logo doesn't say WWJD, it says WDJD... what is that? What Did Jesus Do?

Hellfire stuff is sad. I've asked Konolia before, but I'll bring it up again... how could heaven be heavenly, a perfect world, when you know that people you love are suffering unremittingly and eternally? eternal sunshine of the spotless mind?
posted by mdn at 8:26 AM on April 22, 2004


I was always liked Kirk's wife: Chelsea Noble. Any good links about her out there? All I could find was this.
posted by scalz at 8:47 AM on April 22, 2004


Kirk Cameron. Once a lightweight, always a lightweight.

:::toddles off to compose his RSVP in the negative to send to konolia:::
posted by rushmc at 8:47 AM on April 22, 2004


The whole site is pretty innocuous, in my opinion (although I had the audio off), but it perpetuates the selfishness that is displayed by most evangelists - don't be a christian or obey the word of God because it is right to treat yourself and others with respect, do it so that you personally will benefit by going to heaven. I know that is a bit simplistic, but it is the basic message that I see from the whole born-again crowd.

Well, most people start out with a bit of self interest, and many people go searching for God specifically because they are concerned about where they go when they die. But in my experience, after awhile, that concern fades into the background and you really do get more concerned with treating others with respect, doing good and so on. In my case I really enjoy helping people-it kinda even feels a wee bit selfish in one sense cuz I really do get enjoyment from it. Not because I'm all that but because God designed it that way.

how could heaven be heavenly, a perfect world, when you know that people you love are suffering unremittingly and eternally? eternal sunshine of the spotless mind?

Excellent question. I read somewhere (and I believe it) that the saddest day Jesus will ever have is the day He has to send people away from Him. I can only think that by then we will have such a deeper and detailed understanding of why things are the way they are, that all-including the hellbound-will agree that God's ways are just. But I also think that God will indeed take certain memories out of our minds, because you are right-the thought of someone you know suffering like that, whether you loved or hated them, is not pleasant.

Having said all that, I don't really know for sure.
posted by konolia at 8:55 AM on April 22, 2004


Having said all that, I don't really know for sure.

Ah, you would be SUCH a better person if you said that a whole lot more often...
posted by rushmc at 9:04 AM on April 22, 2004


...and they're off!
posted by jonmc at 9:11 AM on April 22, 2004


jpoulos, I'm not supporting what the website says,

No worries. I made a joke riffing on what you said. I didn't think you'd been born again since the last time we spoke. :-)
posted by jpoulos at 9:14 AM on April 22, 2004


I'm sorry, but they lost me at the first one:

You shall have no other gods before Me

They can pry my golden calf from my cold, dead hands!
posted by filmgoerjuan at 9:15 AM on April 22, 2004


I didn't think you'd been born again since the last time we spoke. :-)

Well, in some ways, you'd be wrong.
posted by jonmc at 9:18 AM on April 22, 2004


all-including the hellbound-will agree that God's ways are just.

"Wow, that makes perfect sense. I deserve to burn in hell for all eternity because I coveted my neighbor's wife that time in '84. Thanks God!"
posted by InfidelZombie at 10:05 AM on April 22, 2004


heh, missionaries. i get pissed whenever this is brought up. did they ever consider that maybe the people in the backwoods of indonesia / brazil / africa / wherever were perfectly happy without having to have the christian guilt of being born flawed and in need of saving? they already have a religion, and it's worked for them for thousands of years in many cases. bringing in medicine or teaching them how to protect their homeland from exploitation by timber harvesters, etc. is well and good, but don't cart in the bible. missionary work just undermines and destroys the already vanishing primitive cultures that are left. we do enough damage as is exporting american culture overseas, we don't need to be exporting religion as well. if they want it, let them come to us - not the other way around.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:20 AM on April 22, 2004


But... but... Jesus *lurrrrvs* them and we only want to bring the lurrrrv to them. Is that so wrooooong?
posted by scarabic at 10:25 AM on April 22, 2004


I liked the slick flash site. The little talking Kirk was cool. I wish he was my search assistant.

Or an Office Assistant! Man, that would be sweet.

"It looks like you're going to Hell. Would you like to...

- Learn more about Jesus
- Accept Jesus as your Savior
- Read the Bible"
posted by mkultra at 10:31 AM on April 22, 2004


I can't believe we've gotten so far into the religion of somebody named Kirk without mentioning this...
posted by wendell at 10:56 AM on April 22, 2004


Be Good = Get a Prize

Christianity is a beautiful religion when it is not perverted by messages like this website. I'll bet Jesus would be embarrassed by this website.

That being said, I am also fascinated with the tiny Kirk, so concerned about my salvation.
posted by kamikazegopher at 11:24 AM on April 22, 2004


Silly Christians, "Every living creature dies alone."
posted by shoepal at 11:48 AM on April 22, 2004


MattD, I agree that a huge proportion of evangelical activity is aimed at other believers, but I would posit that it's much more cheerleading, us-vs.-them or my-faith-is-bigger-than-your-faith activity than it is an attempt at interdenominational conversion. Trying to get Catholics or Baptists or Mormons or choose-your-own-afterlife Christians to embrace your particular flavor is certainly present, but that doesn't really explain the fire and brimstone stuff aimed at the non-believers.

scalz: There was a big kerfuffle in Denver maybe 10 years ago when a local topless bar used Chelsea Noble's picture in its newspaper ad. She was sort of crabby.

rushmc: That's funny, since as often as I think that of konolia, I think it of you at least as often.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 11:49 AM on April 22, 2004


scalz (and anyone else so inclined)... there's always this little gem. Talk about worshipping false idols...
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:05 PM on April 22, 2004


While I have no problem deriding religions, I try to avoid deriding individuals for their adherence to their faith. Indeed, as I get older my respect for those that practice their beliefs (even if I disagree with them) grows. So I respect Mr Cameron for living his convictions and tend to agree with jonmc on this one.

What I don't like is evangelicals who won't take no for an answer and continue to try to change my behavior by interfering with my beliefs or actions.

I've met less than a handful of people who seem to live a Christian life and none of them have tried evangelizing without being asked. Instead they inspire by example.
posted by infowar at 12:35 PM on April 22, 2004


Wow, that makes perfect sense. I deserve to burn in hell for all eternity because I coveted my neighbor's wife that time in '84. Thanks God!"

Actually it would be more like a condemned prisoner getting a call from the governor right before his scheduled execution, rejecting the proffered pardon, telling the governor to f**k off, then proclaiming what a poophead the governor is all the way to the death chamber.
posted by konolia at 12:36 PM on April 22, 2004


I just emailed them the following:

Hello to both of you.

I was just wondering, if I get saved over the internet - what kind of encryption will you be using between me and Jesus?

Thanks,
Scott
posted by glenwood at 12:41 PM on April 22, 2004


Actually it would be more like a condemned prisoner getting a call from the governor right before his scheduled execution, rejecting the proffered pardon, telling the governor to f**k off, then proclaiming what a poophead the governor is all the way to the death chamber.

Only if he was being executed for littering.
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:21 PM on April 22, 2004


Actually it would be more like a condemned prisoner getting a call from the governor right before his scheduled execution, rejecting the proffered pardon, telling the governor to f**k off, then proclaiming what a poophead the governor is all the way to the death chamber.

Actually, it would be more like the governor calling, speaking only in German, then the littering offender hanging up in bewildered confusion, not knowing whether or not there is indeed a governor. Or an electric chair. Or a prison.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 1:48 PM on April 22, 2004


Oh, let Kirky be. And Tommy Bradford and Parker Lewis and everyone else.

Homeboy wants to preach, that's fine. I preach too, and so does damn near everyone who's posted in this thread. Nobody's Jim Jones or Sun Myung Moon in here. (Well, maybe jonmc. But the list is short, anyways.)

His proselytizing seems pretty benign, compared to many of the kooks out there, starting with Jack Chick and the Cap Alert guy and going off the deep end from there.

I don't believe in the dogmatic tripe he's spouting, but so what. Unless I missed something, he's not advocating genocide or anything truly evil.

As those great prophets, the Doobie Brothers, said, Jesus is just alright with me. Oh yeah.
posted by chicobangs at 2:11 PM on April 22, 2004


Why thank you, chicobangs.

Thirsty?
posted by jonmc at 2:15 PM on April 22, 2004


Naw. But I've got a hankerin' for gettin' married to a stranger in a soccer stadium with 79,999 of my closest friends.

Can you hook a brother up?
posted by chicobangs at 2:19 PM on April 22, 2004


Heh.

My mom used to teach an adult ed ESL class at the University Of Bridgeport, which is owned by the Moonies. When my sister got hitched, we shoulda took advantage and saved my old man a few bucks on catering.
posted by jonmc at 2:23 PM on April 22, 2004


Well, most people start out with a bit of self interest, and many people go searching for God specifically because they are concerned about where they go when they die. But in my experience, after awhile, that concern fades into the background and you really do get more concerned with treating others with respect, doing good and so on.
I am glad to hear that you have moved on from the wanting to become a christian to save yourself from burning in hell, but that does not change what motivates 99.9%* of so-called christians. What seems to motivate them is not following God because it is right, not to do good for others, but the entirely selfish motivation of saving their own skin. Not that I have any problem with people wanting to save themselves from eternal fire, but the hypocrisy of saying that being a christian is a selfless thing when it clearly isn't.

*This statistic is based on the time-tested method of pulling a number out of my arse and should not be relied upon for anything
posted by dg at 3:39 PM on April 22, 2004


rushmc: That's funny, since as often as I think that of konolia, I think it of you at least as often.

Yer just being cranky. It's the assumed preface to every statement I make.
posted by rushmc at 5:07 PM on April 22, 2004


that does not change what motivates 99.9%* of so-called christians. What seems to motivate them is not following God because it is right, not to do good for others, but the entirely selfish motivation of saving their own skin

I'm gonna hafta quibble with your arse number here. I think that a far more significant motivator behind people identifying themselves with a religion is peer pressure. After all, what happens after we die is unknown, vague, and (we like to believe) far off, whereas what the neighbor, our boss, our family members, our teachers, or a stranger at the 7-11 say about us affects us RIGHT NOW.
posted by rushmc at 5:12 PM on April 22, 2004


I think that a far more significant motivator behind people identifying themselves with a religion is peer pressure. After all, what happens after we die is unknown, vague, and (we like to believe) far off, whereas what the neighbor, our boss, our family members, our teachers, or a stranger at the 7-11 say about us affects us RIGHT NOW.

I agree 99.9%.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:00 PM on April 22, 2004


DG, you did wash your hands, right? ;-)
posted by konolia at 7:30 PM on April 22, 2004


... what happens after we die is unknown, vague, and (we like to believe) far off, ...
Which is precisely why (I think) many people are attracted to christianity - by accepting the belief that you will ascend to a higher place after you die, you remove the uncertainty of the situation. People are far more comfortable with the known, so they grab onto whatever theory or belief removes the uncertainty and the fact that being a christian "guarantees" you a place in the hereafter keeps people in their comfort zone. I don't see much peer pressure in the community to become a christian - quite the opposite, in fact.

konolia, is it too late to wash them now? Or should I have done that before eating my lunch?
posted by dg at 8:53 PM on April 22, 2004


I don't see much peer pressure in the community to become a christian - quite the opposite, in fact.

We must inhabit different communities, then.
posted by rushmc at 10:20 AM on April 23, 2004


Poking around in the tools section you can get to "How should I witness to a Jew?"

Sadly, many of today’s Jews profess godliness but don’t embrace the Scriptures as we presume they do. Therefore, it is often difficult to reason with them about Jesus being the Messiah....

What a bunch of jerks.
posted by valis at 11:08 AM on April 23, 2004


We must inhabit different communities, then.

It's a big world. In some places not being Christian makes you suspected of all kinds of stuff, in other palces being one makes you suspect of all kinds of stuff. Either way it's a lousy prejudice.
posted by jonmc at 3:38 PM on April 23, 2004


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