Michael Moore Hates America

May 19, 2004 1:23 PM

Michael Moore Hates America is a new documentary looking to discredit filmmaker Michael Moore. Moore's new film, Fahrenheit 9/11 is causing quite a stir at the Cannes Film Festival, where it has been met with rave reviews, and standing ovations lasting upwards of 20 minutes. With Moore's recent distribution problems with the film, a new project seeks to challenge Moore to distribute his film for free via the internet to prove that "the message is more important than the money," and to silence his critics, who contend that with the immense profits his controversial film is sure to garner, he is a "war profiteer" just like Halliburton.
posted by banished (70 comments total)

Heh.
posted by ColdChef at 1:27 PM on May 19, 2004

Chief difference being, Halliburton supported the war.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 1:29 PM on May 19, 2004

'he is a "war profiteer" just like Halliburton.'

oh man, that cracks me up.
posted by hackly_fracture at 1:30 PM on May 19, 2004

I read an interview with this guy in the conservative San Francisco Herald newsletter.

It was hilarious. He said he'd disproven Michael Moore's assertion that most people in America won't get rich. How? He found a few people who'd gotten really rich. Classic silliness.
posted by inksyndicate at 1:36 PM on May 19, 2004

DISCLAIMER: I do not work for Miramax, Disney, or Michael Moore.

However, I guarantee Michael Moore's movie will be freely distributed on the internet.
posted by ejoey at 1:36 PM on May 19, 2004

If Michael Moore is a "war profiteer," then so is every single media organization that has seen an increase in audience since September 11th. And that certainly includes Fox News. But I don't see anybody calling for them to forego all advertising revenue.

Seriously, that's a ridiculously inane argument. You can pick a fight with Michael Moore on a lot of things, and you'd probably be right, but that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.
posted by logovisual at 1:37 PM on May 19, 2004

A standing ovation from the French. Ridiculement approprié!!
posted by hama7 at 1:38 PM on May 19, 2004

Newsmax and Drudge Report links on the news page. This guy is already automatically less credible than Moore.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:39 PM on May 19, 2004

Uh the Title says it all : why do you hate the name of a country ? Yeah cause you know America is just a geographical denomination. At least Fahrenheit 911 has a reference to a very interesting movie...hope Moore did something as good as the original Fahrenheit 451 which I recommend, excellent movie.
posted by elpapacito at 1:41 PM on May 19, 2004

Does the right (as represented by the radio host in the trailer) really think "taking on Michael Moore" makes someone the bravest man in America?
posted by turaho at 1:43 PM on May 19, 2004

So why DO you beat your children, Mike?
posted by muppetboy at 1:48 PM on May 19, 2004

elpapacito, dunno if you were being sardonic or what, but, um, there was also a pretty good book by that name.

The guy's poster is cute, but come on. It's 2004. The turn-the-tables-on-Michael-Moore joke is more tired than today's Hagar the Horrible.
posted by soyjoy at 1:51 PM on May 19, 2004

I understand how people can argue against Michael Moore's movies. He does tend to mix opinions and facts together sometimes, and I think there are some blatant factual errors here and there. I just hate how people nitpick at tiny points in the film that aren't necessarily central to Moore's thesis, and then try and discredit his films ALTOGETHER based on these tiny problems. Anytime you're editing a film, people are going to be taken out of context sometimes, facts may be slightly misrepresented, etc. It's just the shortcoming of the medium, and the price you pay for dumbing the facts down so the American public can digest it, salting it with Moore's classic satire and wit.

However, to say Moore HATES America... I think that's going to far. I think he takes his work quite seriously and puts his heart into it and really believes in what he's saying and doing, and trying to make our country a better place. I will say though, that it wouldn't surprise me if he was an overly-prideful person, very self-oriented and conceited, and has become a different person now that he is wealthy. I don't know him in person, though, so I really couldn't say. In any event, I don't think his personality should have anything to do with his work. Let the work speak for itself.
posted by banished at 1:51 PM on May 19, 2004

What does 'hating America' mean? Can anyone give some kind of definition?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 1:57 PM on May 19, 2004

I am not a huge Michael Moore fan, but I really don't like this "if you criticize a country you must hate it" bullplop. And really, does finding some people who "are living the American Dream" really prove anything other than that there are some people who are living the American dream?

I agree with banished's second paragraph-- the idea that saying a bad thing about a country means you hate it is ridiculous. How will anything improve if nobody complains? Besides, regardless of what this Michael Wilson says, there are people living in terrible poverty in the US, there are people who are profiting from war, and there are a great number of problems that need to be addressed. That's what Michael Moore does, if nothing else-- he may sensationalize things, and he may edit things carefully so they promote his own agenda, but at least he is pointing out that things are far from perfect.
posted by synecdoche at 2:01 PM on May 19, 2004

agreed soyjoy. hollywood's not the only one out of ideas. an unoriginal idea by a small-time wannabe.

doesn't merit the time and attention it took to visit the site.
posted by drgonzo at 2:01 PM on May 19, 2004

Sometimes, in the moment, I'm taken by a cause. You know, I might change my mind later but this is no excuse against immediate action....

It's true - I know various parties who might want to contribute quite substantial amounts of money to such a venture.

But, this would require discussion and at least a little time.

And that, in turn, would require the time and attention of those parties who are organizing this project. After all, sizable patronage demands, in turn, substantial personal attention.

Yes, not all such contacts and time so invested result in the actual disbursement of funds. This is to be expected. The agents of such projects as this will solicit the goodwill of those who would fertilize such courageous and promising fields, but not all of those fields will indeed bear fruit and - if a drought should strike - they should not be dismayed : for this is the very nature of their enterprise.

[e-mail]
posted by troutfishing at 2:02 PM on May 19, 2004

Why does this man hate freedom?

Seriously, this is the dumbest argument I've heard in some time. Sure Moore's wealthy and annoying, but if anyone should be encouraged to give up the profits they've made from the war it should be Dick Cheney.
posted by haqspan at 2:07 PM on May 19, 2004

Hmm, check out the fact sheet.
Using pictures of a smiling kid waving an American flag, the declaration of independence, the Statue of Liberty, and a picture of Michael Moore holding a gun displays just a few signs of how this movie will turn out.

Everyone already knows the US offers a lot more freedom and liberty than other countries. Any patriotic movie can tell you about the wonders of the States. I can't find a direct quote but I'm sure I remember Moore saying something along the lines of loving his country and wanting it to be better. Logically, if you hated your country so much you'd move to another location but if you're making these films in an attempt to raise awareness and hopefully get things changed, then you must love living in it enough to care.

If Michael Wilson was going after Moore because of his political inaccuracies and sensationalist manners or other things he's been accused of doing or being, then fine. But to make a movie just to prove how great the US in correlation to Moore's accusations doesn't do much for him other than stirring up more propaganda that most people, American or not, are getting quite tired of.
posted by mojo80 at 2:10 PM on May 19, 2004

Be the "Right's" bitch, or be accused of hating America.

sigh

What else they got?
posted by Blue Stone at 2:16 PM on May 19, 2004

What's funny is that most of us on MeFi would make some sarcastic, overused comment on a threat like this such as "Why Does Michael Moore Hate America?" and then some of us would laugh, and other would roll their eyes at seeing this cliche for the umpteenth time, and we'd all have a good time.

It's unclear whether Michael Wilson is saying "Michael Moore Hates America" in the MeFi sense, or whether he actually means it seriously. If the former, then "ha, ha." If the latter, then he's too far gone.
posted by deanc at 2:16 PM on May 19, 2004

Might Magazine was making fun of Michael Moore and following him around back in the early '90s. It is no longer the early '90s. They didn't try to bite off more than they could chew, and concentrated on the allegation that Moore wasn't funny.

Why doesn't this guy make a move about how steady Bush's leadership was after 9/11, or how wholesome gun nuts are, if he's so upset with Moore's claims?
posted by inksyndicate at 2:17 PM on May 19, 2004

"To whom it may concern,

I am sympathetic to this project of exposing those who hate America - all of them, and wherever they hide. Why not wrap up all the America-Haters in the title though ? that I could heartily support.

I would very much enjoy an informational packet concerning your project.


Thank you and, sincerely,
_______________


P.S. - I think your website color scheme strikes a great note."


I post this only for inspirational value. Please do not cut-and-paste. It ruins the effect.

Write your own - the more original, the better.
posted by troutfishing at 2:19 PM on May 19, 2004

Let's just remember that Fahrenheit 451 was a book before a movie, k?
posted by agregoli at 2:20 PM on May 19, 2004

And before that, it was a temperature.
posted by soyjoy at 2:26 PM on May 19, 2004

Simple, pathetic grandstanding - the interesting bit is that it's not a direct confrontation/refutation of Michael Moore's work, but instead sounds like a "rah-rah" piece with little real substance.

I agree with mojo80's last paragraph. If this movie was meant to be a serious refuation of Moore's claims, then I'd be interested. But, it just sounds like sensationalist tripe.
posted by FormlessOne at 2:30 PM on May 19, 2004

Everyone already knows the US offers a lot more freedom and liberty than other countries.

Really? I think that's a matter of opinion. (And an opinion usually expressed by Americans who don't really see that much of 'other countries'.)

Wasn't it Al Franken who said that conservatives love America like a five-year-old loves his mummy, and liberals love America like an adult loves his mother? Now, I'm sure that Michael Moore considers America a far from perfect mother, but I'd rather have machine-gun polemicism than googoogaga.

And I'm sure that if Michael Moore were to give his movie away for free, rather than selling it, he'd be accused by some of an anti-American disrespect for capitalism.
posted by riviera at 2:32 PM on May 19, 2004

If he really hated America, he'd have called it Celsius 4/88.
posted by smackfu at 2:36 PM on May 19, 2004

4/88? How about 11/9?
posted by crazy finger at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2004

4/88? How about 11.9?
posted by crazy finger at 2:40 PM on May 19, 2004

Weird. I got an error "failed to connect" or something. I changed the slash to a dot and tried again... Semi-double post.

Speaking of errors - is everybody else also having intermittent difficulty getting into MeFi?
posted by crazy finger at 2:42 PM on May 19, 2004

Everyone already knows the US offers a lot more freedom and liberty than other countries.

...And aren't freedom and liberty the same thing?
posted by crazy finger at 2:45 PM on May 19, 2004

I read the comments here before clicking on the link, but when I finally did look at it, I was really surprised by how professional the site looks. I was definitely expecting the standard crackpot approach to web design: animated GIFs, multicolor background with an incompatible text color, lots of font sizes, etc. I wonder if he can make movies.

Everyone already knows the US offers a lot more freedom and liberty than other countries.

Some other countries, sure. I've been to other places where I've felt more "free" in some respects than I feel in the US, though. Public drinking, as trivial example, is banned pretty much throughout the US while perfectly acceptable in lots of other places. And the cops in the US are a lot more authoritarian and in-your-face than cops in most other developed countries. I don't think anyone has better protection for freedom of speech or of the press than Americans, though.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:55 PM on May 19, 2004

Really? I think that's a matter of opinion. (And an opinion usually expressed by Americans who don't really see that much of 'other countries'.)

Sure, and Canada offers free healthcare, but that can be debated as well...

I lived in Iran when I was very young. I'm glad my parents fled to a country (Canada, by the way), where exposing my hair won't result in my death.

I'm sorry I wasn't more specific when I mentioned the US and its freedoms, I thought it would be fairly obvious. Freedom of speech and religion are only a few liberties you'll find in the US. Try it in Iran.. Let me know how it works out for you. ;)
posted by mojo80 at 3:15 PM on May 19, 2004

Even if Michael Moore hated America, it wouldn't necessarily subtract from his ability to create a biased (but not necessarily distorting - haven't seen it!) documentary about an administration which he does indeed hate. That's such a low blow, and it only works on those who are unable to distinguish say, between the two meanings of, "wrong."
posted by abcde at 3:17 PM on May 19, 2004

...And aren't freedom and liberty the same thing?

Not exactly. For the differences, there's a really good explanation in Going Nucular, a really good book on linguistics and politics.
posted by drezdn at 3:50 PM on May 19, 2004

"Fahrenheit 9/11" seems assured of U.S. release, however. Miramax bosses Harvey and Bob Weinstein are buying back the film from Disney and finding another distributor, with Moore hoping to have it in theaters by Fourth of July weekend.
Harvey Weinstein showed up outside the Cannes theater after the first "Fahrenheit 9/11" screening. He declined to speak at length, but as reporters asked if the film would be released, he said, "Have I ever let you down?"
The film takes its title from Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451," which refers to the temperature needed to burn books in an anti-Utopian society.
Moore calls "Fahrenheit 9/11" the "temperature at which freedom burns."

that's a good tagline.
posted by matteo at 4:00 PM on May 19, 2004

What's so wrong about hating America, anyway?

It's no sillier (and I would argue a lot more sensible, actually, in these times) than loving America.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:44 PM on May 19, 2004 [1 favorite]

have I told you all the story in which Mike devoured a Torch Burger? (infamous bar in Flint Mi. were all us "writers" use to hang and get drunk)
my god that man can pack it away.

I love how he outsourced web work for his site to Canada.
posted by clavdivs at 5:33 PM on May 19, 2004

soyjoy: yup I forgot mentioning the book itself that I still don't own (can't find paperbacks of it in my bookstores and libraries right now). I guess I just took for granted people now like movies better then books so maybe these days the movie is the vector to the book and mentioning the movie before the book is a good strategy ; unfortunately I forgot mentioning the book (Disclaimer: I don't work for Amazon neither care if you buy from them, I suggest you first look at local library)
posted by elpapacito at 5:43 PM on May 19, 2004

Someone already touched on this.. so I was wondering.. does he hate Chile and Guatemala too? Cause last I checked, they are both in "America"
posted by afx114 at 6:14 PM on May 19, 2004

Is anyone surprised that this received "rave reviews" and "standing ovations" at the Cannes? Big whoop.

I'll reserve judgement as to the film's quality when I see it. Opinions from a place where the US is reviled don't quite cut it.

As for Fahrenheit 451, is there actually a good movie version out there somewhere? All I could find was this ridiculously crappy British version which omitted the best parts of the book. Is there a better film?
posted by Krrrlson at 6:14 PM on May 19, 2004

What's so wrong about hating America, anyway?

I consider America to be the collection of people who live in it, and the culture and ideas that (most of us) embrace. And I happen to be one of those people. And my ancestors went through an awful lot of trouble to get here. So, on some levels we'd be inclined to take it personally.

You asked.

Actually, countries are kind of like mothers. We can rag on our own all we want, but if someone outside the family says anything, it's "whatchoo say about my mother?" and a right to the jaw.
posted by jonmc at 6:19 PM on May 19, 2004

Freedom of speech and religion are only a few liberties you'll find in the US. Try it in Iran.. Let me know how it works out for you

The difference between what you can get away with saying in the US and in Canada is something that only a negligible minority of Americans would ever run into problems with. Most of us just go about our lives, saying things that anyone in a modern, first-world country could say. So, what's the difference, practically speaking? Rhetorical question. None. There is only a technical difference, at least that I can see.

Meanwhile, we in the US have given up freedoms and rights that a lot of other countries have, and we justify it by saying that to protect bigger, more important freedoms, we should be willing to give away smaller, less important ones. Consequently, our nebulously-defined Freedom slowly erodes, even as we perceive it as more secure.
posted by Hildago at 6:25 PM on May 19, 2004

I really like the documentary where Moore ate only McDonald's food for a month and ballooned to 300 lbs. He couldn't muster the energy to shave, brush his hair or created unbiased journalism. I have eliminated McDonald's from my diet to avoid his fate.
posted by Frank Grimes at 6:25 PM on May 19, 2004 [1 favorite]

from fact sheet: America is the greatest nation on earth. It's about time that someone stood up and told the truth.

oh yeah, i'm sure his film won't be filled with any hyberbolic rhetoric.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:35 PM on May 19, 2004

Pretty_Generic - "hating America" means you use the freedoms in the Bill of Rights to question your government and society - they ought to pass a law ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:35 PM on May 19, 2004

Moore is a fossil, God bless him. He's old school Wobbly at heart. Maybe that is part of his threat - his critique appeals to the populism of 1933, not the activism of 1968.
posted by crunchburger at 6:45 PM on May 19, 2004

Why does _________ hate America?

Honestly, it's probably that song about the desert, and the horse with no name. Buncha Crosby, Still, Nash and Young wanna-be's.

Although I must admit I do kinda like "Ventura Highway".
posted by 40 Watt at 7:51 PM on May 19, 2004

Michael Wilson is, supposively, floating this documentary on his own nickel.

However, he actually has a manager in the project - noted motivational dpeaker Carr Hagerman

Wilson's "Little Fish vs. the Michael Moore whale" line looks a bit ragged to me :

I suspect there are deep pockets backing up Wilson.

I smell the stink of political attack money.
posted by troutfishing at 8:38 PM on May 19, 2004

Opinions from a place where the US is reviled don't quite cut it.

First, the attendees at Cannes are not necessarily French.

Second, reviling the current administration is not the same as reviling the US.

Third, in giving a standing ovation to an American who criticizes this administration they are applauding basic American principles; hardly the act of someone who reviles the US.

But this is not to deny that there are places where the US is reviled; more every day, it seems. If Bush continues in office much longer, there won't be any place on Earth where opinions, by your definition, "cut it."
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:48 PM on May 19, 2004

Actually, countries are kind of like mothers. We can rag on our own all we want, but if someone outside the family says anything, it's "whatchoo say about my mother?" and a right to the jaw.

I think we had this discussion before, Jon, so I'll just repeat that I don't get that analogy even a weenie little bit. Ah well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:58 PM on May 19, 2004

Todd Rundgren once did a pop tune called -

"Everybody else is wrong."

(from his "Swing to the Right" album, I think)
posted by troutfishing at 9:59 PM on May 19, 2004

I'd just add (without trying to imply anything about you personally, Jon, 'cause I don't know your history, really) that I find that those who subscribe to that kind of 'my country is the greatest' bullshit are frequently also those who have never actually travelled outside their own country.

FWIW.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:13 PM on May 19, 2004

What's so wrong about hating America, anyway?

It ain't America. It's what some unelected fascistoid does in America's name, using a manipulated media and polarizing opinion to deflect democratic debate. For a long time it was absolutely OK to 'hate Germany' because the vision of one man misled an entire nation.

Oops, times a running out. Gotta go help the Bin Ladens make more money....
posted by zaelic at 11:02 PM on May 19, 2004

No, trout, it was from Deface the Music. It was a Beatles parody, remember? (a melange of Walrus+Strawberry Fields, basically) But it wouldn't be out of place on Swing to the Right (technically a Utopia album, as was DTM) - which looks ever more prescient today (there's actually a song version of "Fahrenheit 451") - or in fact on Todd's current album, Liars, which implicitly and explicitly excoriates the Bush administration.
posted by soyjoy at 7:31 AM on May 20, 2004

With Moore's recent distribution problems with the film, a new project seeks to challenge Moore to distribute his film for free via the internet to prove that "the message is more important than the money," and to silence his critics, who contend that with the immense profits his controversial film is sure to garner, he is a "war profiteer" just like Halliburton.

What an absolutely dumbfuck concept. Of course the message is more important than the money. That doesn't mean magical fairies who live on sunshine and rainbows distribute films, copy prints, manage PR, provide the cost-of-living for the crew, etc. Christ, This film wouldn't have had any backing in the first place if Moore's previous film wasn't a runaway success. With the exception of Homestar Runner and those Halo guys I'm hard-pressed to think of any filmmakers who make a living off of internet distrubution.

I love how Moore's "critics" (who just happen to be hosting this "independent challenge" through their right-wing anti-Moore website) have this dimwitted little fantasy that only Republicans believe in the concept of Capitalism, and that anyone who believes in better economic fairness is OBVIOUSLY a communist who is a complete hypocrite if they want to actually (gasp!) work hard on a project and be rewarded for said hard work financially. Dipshits.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 7:41 AM on May 20, 2004

soyjoy - well then, I was wrong : it's been a long time since I've listened to Rundgren.
posted by troutfishing at 7:56 AM on May 20, 2004

that I find that those who subscribe to that kind of 'my country is the greatest' bullshit are frequently also those who have never actually travelled outside their own country.

I've been to Canada once, and when I was a young tyke I accompanied my Mom back to the old Country to visit her grandmother, so I'm not much of a globetrotter, I admit. And I don't walk around going "USA #1!" all the time, but generally, I like it here.

Maybe this is a better way of putting it. Living in America is a part of what shaped me and other Americans as people, it's a part of our identity. So, when someone says they "hate America," it's hard not to see them as hating us, personally. I doubt that's what you intended, but that's the response it awakens.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2004

"Hating America" for us non-Americans means hating the American government. If you buggers elect Bush again, knowing now what you didn't know in November 2000, that means you are collectively supporting his record, and we'll feel free to hate the population as well.

(Only half-joking)
posted by salmacis at 9:18 AM on May 20, 2004

"but instead sounds like a "rah-rah" piece with little real substance."

Well, since that about covers everything Moore's ever done, it might as well be true of a movie against him.

Me? I think its a sarcastic tribute. I mean, take someone rich and powerful then attack them in ways that can't really be proven, mix fact with opinion and package the whole thing up as a sensationalistic publicity stunt.

I mean hell, Moore's basically made that his whole career!

On the topic of "hating America". I think many people do. They dislike what the country is based on as they see it and wish to radically alter that to suit their whims. In the meantime they consider the US the source of all evil.

Do I feel that "hating America" should be a crime? No. Censored? Of course not.

However I don't need to pretend I don't feel anger to those who do hate the country or the people/society that make it up. There is nothing uncivilized about feeling anger or lack of sympathy to those who hate you and wish your downfall.
posted by soulhuntre at 10:42 AM on May 20, 2004

On the topic of "hating America". I think many people do. They dislike what the country is based on as they see it
and wish to radically alter that to suit their whims.

Let's see: USA-PATRIOT Act, doctrine of pre-emption, federal support for faith-based initiatives... By jove, soulhuntre is right; there really are people who dislike what the country is based on and wish to alter it to suit their whims. We just haven't been looking in the right place for them.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:11 AM on May 20, 2004

Everyone already knows the US offers a lot more freedom and liberty than other countries

Public drinking, as trivial example, is banned pretty much throughout the US while perfectly acceptable in lots of other places. And the cops in the US are a lot more authoritarian and in-your-face than cops in most other developed countries. I don't think anyone has better protection for freedom of speech or of the press than Americans, though

*cough*

If I felt like it, I could write an anti-British govt. poem and nobody would care much. As far as I know, it's called freedom of speech and expression, and we don't need it written down in a Constitution either.

yeah, yeah, US has more liberties than say Iraq, Iran but freedom of speech? you're losing that battle.

end of rant.
posted by knapah at 1:11 PM on May 20, 2004

I forgot how one incident in a New Mexico High School composed of morons means that freedom of speech in American is null and void.

I enjoy Stav's America-hating because it riles up the overly sensitive people here.

I hate the PC pricks in this place.
posted by john at 3:17 PM on May 20, 2004

"Let's see: USA-PATRIOT Act, doctrine of pre-emption, federal support for faith-based initiatives... By jove, soulhuntre is right; there really are people who dislike what the country is based on and wish to alter it to suit their whims."

You may be right. In fact, if someone was to make an argument (as you did) that these things mean the president hates America then I'll listen... I have myself discussed that I feel he is a threat to the nation on some levels.

The point is that it is not an invalid thing to discuss or contemplate. Some people do "hate america" and it is not incumbent upon us to condone it or support it. It does into make one a right wing nazi to evaluate and/or discuss whether someone hates us as a people, as a nation or as a concept.
posted by soulhuntre at 6:08 PM on May 20, 2004

my ancestors went through an awful lot of trouble to get here

My ancestors didn't go through any trouble to get to America. So does that makes me any worse a person than you?
posted by tapeguy at 6:34 PM on May 20, 2004

Michael Moore: He's improving with age. I've used to read his crap in the "Flint Voice" paper he published. I saw his "Roger and Me", which was more his usual crap than anything else. But entertaining and had some valid points (Michael usually has valid points, although he usually hides them well in the propagandy).

Then I saw Bowling for Columbine. Wow. I could hardly believe it was Michael's work. I'm happy for him, and look forward to his latest effort.

Today, Michael is a bit larger than life, thanks to his success and the political climate in the States. Okay, we need, DESPERATELY, people who can stand up and point out that Bush's Brain is naked.

But "hate America"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Impossible. Michael is a Flintoid, a subspecies of Michigander. He can't hate America, he IS America, in a very real way. No fancy Manhattan apartment can make him other than what he is.

clivdavis: Torch? I can not place that bar, although something rings familiar. But my hangouts would not have been Michael's. The Track, on Clio Road and the State on Dort Hwy were my main hangouts (VERY different! hehehe)
posted by Goofyy at 11:43 AM on May 21, 2004

What an absolutely dumbfuck concept. Of course the message is more important than the money.

Exactly so. In fact, it occurred to me that film-making isn't really classical capitalism, in the sense that it's not about making a product and sellling it at a price the consumer demands. On the supply side, films are a loss-leading, fixed-price blind purchase that facilitates a restrictive, monopolistic system of above-market pricing.

That's to say, it's all about the £5 Coke that's 60% ice and 39% water, baby.

And salmacis is right: the American electorate has the benefit of the doubt until November.
posted by riviera at 1:19 PM on May 22, 2004

Second, reviling the current administration is not the same as reviling the US.

And you can of course prove that the anti-American sentiments in France are solely due to Bush. Go for it.

Third, in giving a standing ovation to an American who criticizes this administration they are applauding basic American principles; hardly the act of someone who reviles the US.

This is stupid. Who are you to say what they are applauding? Is it impossible for someone who hates the U.S. to applaud this movie? Did the Somalians not cheer at Black Hawk Down, crappy movie as it was?


But this is not to deny that there are places where the US is reviled; more every day, it seems. If Bush continues in office much longer, there won't be any place on Earth where opinions, by your definition, "cut it."

Again, Bush must be the *only* cause of anti-Americanism in the world. That's myopic to say the least.

----------

yeah, yeah, US has more liberties than say Iraq, Iran but freedom of speech? you're losing that battle.

I'm waiting to see some of the Americans in this thread (maybe even you?) get murdered by a secret police or a mob of religious fanatics now for speaking out here... waiting... what, nothing? Nice try though.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:07 AM on May 23, 2004

I'm waiting to see some of the Americans in this thread (maybe even you?) get murdered by a secret police or a mob of religious fanatics now for speaking out here... waiting... what, nothing? Nice try though.

America: Not as bad as the absolute worst place on Earth.

Some others think America can do better than that. Let's hope they're right and you're wrong.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:49 PM on May 23, 2004