Comments on: Censor Michael Moore!

Censor Michael Moore!

Slagman — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:12:33 -0800

Even paranoids have enemies... A Web site posing as nonpartisan that is funded by a GOP PR outfit and a Senate candidate urges people to call theaters to complain about their plans to show the Michael Moore film "Farenheit 9/11" when it opens. Some theater owners report death threats. The movie's infamous trailer has already been called one of the most effective anti-Bush campaign ads in circulation. So who is behind the censorship effort? Cosmic Iguana, "the voice of the evildoers", has some clues. Why, it's Howard Kaloogian, one of the men behind the Gray Davis recall, who also ran a successful campaign to kill an unfavorable CBS biopic of His Holiness the Gipper. Small world.

By: Slagman

Slagman — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:13:55 -0800

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore. I think he's a blowhard, and his film is no doubt a partisan polemic. But I hate censorship. We let Mel Gibson prance around the country with his S&M show; we can tolerate a little political dissent.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:24:13 -0800

we can tolerate it--obviously other people can't tolerate any criticism of our dear leader. The more they try to stop it, the more people will want to see it.

By: stifford

stifford — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:26:26 -0800

Where does that website claim to be nonpartisan? It talks about the "shamelessly liberal news media and left-wing politicians" right in the first paragraph.

By: stifford

stifford — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:32:15 -0800

Also, who needs the Cosmic Iguana to give us clues about who Howard Kaloogian is, when Kaloogian says all the same stuff on the "Daily File" section of the webpage? About Me Name:Howard Kaloogian Location:San Diego, California, United States The Honorable Howard Kaloogian served as a Member of the California State Assembly from 1994-2000. Mr. Kaloogian made history as Chairman of the Recall Gray Davis Committee, leading the historic effort that replaced failed California governor, Gray Davis, with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Considering former President and California Governor Ronald Reagan to be one of his political heroes, Kaloogian was Chairman of the Defend Reagan Committee (www.DefendReagan.org) which successfully rallied millions of Americans to oppose the airing of the CBS' hatchet piece "The Reagans."

By: Guy Smiley

Guy Smiley — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:34:33 -0800

On Friday a friend of mine told me about all these odd emails he and some co-workers had been getting lately. (He works in payroll for one of the theater chains, although he does review films online.) Sure enough, there's his email address on the list.

By: quam

quam — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:49:07 -0800

This question may seem off-topic, but in a way it is on-topic: the trailer is hosted by Apple. Numerous movie trailers are hosted by Apple. How does Apple profit from hosting such trailers? Does Apple not profit and merely seeks brand recognition?

By: stifford

stifford — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:51:14 -0800

Ok, answered one of my own questions. They claim to be Non-partisan on their "About Us" section of the website. My mistake, it just seemed that everything else I read on the site was obviously partisan.

By: billsaysthis

billsaysthis — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:51:52 -0800

Guy, I would suggest your friends get the corporate counsel to send these jizzwads a strongly worded letter since, due to spam harvesters, their business email addresses are now useless and the company will now have to spend significant resources changing them.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:58:46 -0800

"Now watch this drive..."

By: fatbobsmith

fatbobsmith — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:08:25 -0800

How does Apple profit from hosting such trailers? All the trailers are posted in Quicktime format. Apple wants Quicktime to become the standard video format on the web, so it's in their best interests if the most easily accessible trailers on the web are available through Apple via Quicktime.

By: pmurray63

pmurray63 — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:12:24 -0800

We would like to thank those individuals at Lions Gate Entertainment and IFC Films who support our efforts. What the hell is that statement about? What, did those two companies decline to distribute the movie, so now they're heroes or something? More importantly, is there a good way to communicate to these theatre chains that they shouldn't be intimidated by these thugs? Without sending them even more e-mail, I mean?

By: BentPenguin

BentPenguin — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:21:41 -0800

Behold the teh Rovian handiwork. And while Moore might push hard, he's no blowhard, and he stays closer to the truth than Limbaugh & Hannity, by a longshot. Face it, if the film was so far fetched, they wouldn't be fearing it like this shows they are.

By: crunchland

crunchland — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:23:06 -0800

is there a good way to communicate to these theatre chains that they shouldn't be intimidated by these thugs? Without sending them even more e-mail, I mean? Yeah. Go to the movie when it opens. There are quite a few venues where the movie opens in a week or two, and no amount of email from anyone will keep those theatres from going ahead with it. Go to the movie and vote with your dollar.

By: John Kenneth Fisher

John Kenneth Fisher — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:24:04 -0800

Actually, i think it was very nice of them to give us a list of emails where we could encourage them to show the film.

By: matteo

matteo — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:50:21 -0800

"Now watch this drive..." that line's already a classic I think it'll become more popular as a catchphrase than "son we don't read the bills here..."

By: skallas

skallas — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:03:13 -0800

The Party™ thinks for us! Hail the Patry™!

By: skallas

skallas — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:06:52 -0800

"Are you tired of the constant stream of America-bashing from the shamelessly liberal news media" If the media is so "liberal" why isn't Howard Kaloogian a household name? Why did so many Americans believe the fictional Iraq and 9/11 connection? Why was Bush given a free ride for his war? I guess liberal means "whatever we don't like." And they've got millions of people believing that myth. Hell, this guy is proud of removing the Reagans from the air and believes the media is liberal? I doubt a liberal media would have pulled it. These people are nutters and the pretty much control the media through tactics like these.

By: wendell

wendell — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:08:46 -0800

Patry™? All beff Patry™?

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:09:36 -0800

lists tell you alot about the people who make them. that should be "hail the pastry" in mikes case there skallas

By: Zurishaddai

Zurishaddai — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:12:22 -0800

How does Apple profit from hosting such trailers? Every time you watch a trailer, Apple reinstalls the little QuickTime fellow that crops up (visibly or invisibly) in your system tray. Their general corporate strategy: world domination, starting from your system tray. Once a week I get curious about a movie and have to go fix my registry.

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:15:04 -0800

This film is going to be huge. The theatre chains are as likely to drop it as they are to throw bundles of hundred dollar bills in their furnace. They won't be intimidated by this because they know that for every email they get they'll sell a thousand tickets. By all accounts this is a much better film than Bowling for Columbine, it's on a topic that's on the front of everyone's mind, and it has everything that the news organizations have been so obligingly quiet about. It would not be going too far to say that Americans are starved for the material that's (reportedly) in this film, and I'd be very surprised if it didn't end up being the highest grossing documentary ever made. No way in hell are theatres walking away from that. Not one.

By: skallas

skallas — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:20:19 -0800

I just wrote a whole bunch of emails telling them where all this "public outcry" is coming from. GS: The theatre chains are as likely to drop it as they are to throw bundles of hundred dollar bills in their furnace True, but some outlets are still on the fence, at least according to these people.

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:21:25 -0800

hows about a hug big mikey

By: Sxyzzx

Sxyzzx — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:52:54 -0800

Zurishaddai, just delete C:\Program Files\Quicktime\qttask.exe.

By: milovoo

milovoo — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:26:26 -0800

Theatres that are willing to cave in to conservative pressure will suffer economically. Fair enough.

By: kozad

kozad — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:38:42 -0800

Imagine (in a parallel universe) (or in our own USA) what would happen if a powerful pro-Bush film were to appear in the multiplexes? First of all, Liberals would not mount a boycott. Liberals support free speech. Secondly, it would be pretty much what we've seen on TV for three and a half years, so the box office figures would be pretty lame. Unless they made up stuff. Lastly, HEY! Since when is protesting public policy a criminal thing to do? I am old enough to recall that a recent president was IMPEACHED about lying about intimate affairs. (OK, I'm old enough to recall a President lying about breaking into the enemy's camp to try to win an election.) If Reality Movies break into Reality and influence an election...well, boo-hoo G.W. Hope your book sells as well as Clinton's.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:39:13 -0800

clavdivs - you love the "facts", eh? Why not stick to them ?

By: Slagman

Slagman — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:55:44 -0800

Note: The response so far has been overwhelming! Thousands upon thousands of you have already joined this effort. We've had over 350,000 hits to our website in the last 3 days alone - and this has been over a weekend (a time when Internet traffic is usually at it's lowest). I also note that we've received a handful of emails from those who support Michael Moore who are dismayed that we are speaking up. I wonder why they are so afraid of the opinion of the American public?

By: trharlan

trharlan — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:56:04 -0800

The market is still putting a Bush re-election at 60%. I again encourage those of you who feel that this is a(nother) death knell to make some hay.

By: Slagman

Slagman — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:56:55 -0800

Why does Howard Kaloogian hate America?

By: guidedbychris

guidedbychris — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:01:18 -0800

Holy crap! I hadn't seen the trailer yet. If the rest of the film is anywhere near as slick (and hopefully missing the bits of faux-puppy dog eyed "Mr. Heston, will you look at this picture..." lameness of Moore's previous effort) you can bet I'll not only watch it, but pay for an on the fence friend or two to see it.

By: obfusciatrist

obfusciatrist — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:02:41 -0800

A group of like minded people getting together to tell corporate entities what they should do? This is a problem? (Not that I support his effort any more than efforts such as those to get Dr. Laura's TV show dropped by stations or efforts way back when to get The Simpsons off the air.)

By: KirkJobSluder

KirkJobSluder — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:15:40 -0800

kozad: First of all, Liberals would not mount a boycott. Liberals support free speech. Not necessarily the case. Both liberals and conservatives argue for using one's pocketbook as a political statement by supporting businesses with policies you support and not supporting businesses with policies you don't support. One can certainly ridicule the logic behind the boycott, but saying boycotts are free speech issues is very flawed.

By: milovoo

milovoo — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:39:57 -0800

Just FYI, fact-index.com (from the Gray Davis link) is just copied info from wikipedia with ads. (stuart_s pointed this out in ask.me)

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:45:25 -0800

As far as organizing boycots go, I'm with Kozad that if I support liberal boycots of conservative stuff (and I do), I can't really complain about conservative boycotts of liberal stuff. (Well, I can complain about the aim, not the tactic.) On the other hand, this is pretty close to astroturfing¹, which is evil; and I oppose it as a tactic utilized for any cause. 1 I make no claims about the reliability of that link. I just searched for something that defined "astroturfing".

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:53:07 -0800

trharlan - Editor and Publisher magazine did a survey prior to the 2000 election - editors and publisjers of major print media in the US thought Bush would win by both a numerical and electoral landslide. Not. In fact - reports E&P - major print media in the US has endorsed Republican Presidential candidates in most elections since the 1930's. I don't know whether those opinion-makers constitute a "market" or not, but I'd make that call myself. "The magazine Editor & Publisher has been tracking newspaper endorsements of presidential candidates since 1932. Contrary to the myth of the liberal media, in only two elections since then -- 1964 and 1992 -- have more endorsements gone to the Democratic candidate than the Republican. The 2000 election was no exception, according to a survey E&P (11/6/00) commissioned of newspaper executives: 48 percent said their paper would support George W. Bush, while only 23 percent were picking Al Gore. Personally, 59 percent of publishers said they planned to vote for Bush, v. just 20 percent inclined to Gore." (Extra! (FAIR), January/February, 2001). (passed on via this site, and also see here Here, almost in it's entirety, is the Rosetta Stone of modern American Editorial and Publisher bias, this, pre-2000 election E&P survey : "George W. Bush is heading for a surprisingly comfortable win in Tuesday's presidential election, according to a new E&P/TIPP survey of the nation's newspaper editors and publishers, completed Tuesday."

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:24:14 -0800

Predictions are not the same thing as endorsements. And the political affiliation and leanings of people in journalism moves rightward as you move up the chain from reporters to editors to publishers. Publishers are predominately conservative. Reporters are predominately liberal. Whether this means their reporting is slanted to the left or right is another matter. A good argument can be made that the two largely cancel each out. And, I personally think, political bias is swamped by the much greater biases that exist (access to sources, corporate connections, etc.).

By: jaronson

jaronson — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:26:49 -0800

"We would like to thank those individuals at Lions Gate Entertainment and IFC Films who support our efforts. What the hell is that statement about?-pmurray63 Where did you get that quote, pmurray63? I'm not sure what it is about either, but if you check the link that crunchland posted above^ you will see the the logos of Lions Gate Entertainment and IFC Films prominently displayed. And if you click on their respective links you will see that "Fahrenheit 911" is definitley being promoted. Also, with regards to the website, I thought it was interesting that their Message Group is a link to a YahooGroup under the category of "World Trade Center and Pentagon Attacks."

By: calwatch

calwatch — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:13:11 -0800

Why does Howard Kaloogian hate America? Why is Howard Kaloogian despised by fellow conservatives? (Answer: because he's a liar and takes credit for the handiwork of others and appropriates them for his own.)

By: techgnollogic

techgnollogic — Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:57:34 -0800

he stays closer to the truth than Limbaugh & Hannity Set that bar sky-high didn't ya, Mike?

By: soulhuntre

soulhuntre — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:52:43 -0800

"First of all, Liberals would not mount a boycott. Liberals support free speech." Right. Sure. No liberal protests about movies or books or radio. Gotcha.

By: pmurray63

pmurray63 — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:26:15 -0800

jaronson: I found the line about Lion's Gate and IFC on this page. I actually found the answer to my question after I rewatched the trailer, and I was exactly wrong with my guess: Lion's Gate and IFC are the ones distributing the film. So perhaps a few of their employees have expressed unhappiness about it.

By: Slagman

Slagman — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:20:39 -0800

On the boycott issue... Liberals and the left should not support boycotts, in my opinion, though this is not a universally held belief among liberals and the left. You can certainly choose not to use or buy a product, and that is good, but to organize a campaign aimed at keeping others from using or buying the product is the real problem. If churches want to buy bulk tickets to Gibson's Passion, that's fine -- I won't, and I will gladly shout from the mountain tops why you should not. But that's not what is happening here. It's true that some organized boycotts like the one against Nestle have produced humanitarian victories. But the history of boycotts shows that they are far more often used to silence liberal and left voices. For example, the McCarthy era blacklists were in effect a boycott. But there are many other examples where publications and broadcasts were shut down by organized boycotts. These were cases where some work had a potentially sizeable audience that was denied access to the work because of intimidation. In the end, this sort of thing is more than a boycott. It is one thing to distribute a polemic and have it be a flop, quite another -- as was the case with Moore -- to have your own publisher warehouse your book for months after it was supposed to be released or to have a broadcaster be intimidated by death threats and the like. Take the Reagan thing -- by all accounts, this biopic sucked. It would have been on the air for a night and disappeared. Instead, it never appeared on broadcast TV, was shown in edited form on Showtime. I believe in a free marketplace of ideas. If someone wants to make a movie out of one of Ann Coulter's fictions, and it is as powerful and damning as I expect Moore's propaganda piece to be, so be it.

By: trharlan

trharlan — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:23:11 -0800

troutfishing-- I would say that a bunch of editors and publishers (though they may fit a definition of a market) are a poor sample. The market does a good job. A better job than polls. You can win $60 for a bet of $40 (and you get your $40 back, too) if you correctly predict a Kerry win.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:26:13 -0800

I guess liberal means "whatever we don't like." Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:35:26 -0800

hey trout, WTF are you talking about?

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:50:10 -0800

clavdivs - It was in response to trharlan's comment on this thread, "The market is still putting a Bush re-election at 60%. I again encourage those of you who feel that this is a(nother) death knell to make some hay." I'm noting that the "market" (not the same "market" harlan refers to but, instead, the media "market" of editor and publisher opinion) was not especially objective in predicting the 2000 election results and that this was true to a long term pattern of right-leaning bias dating back to the 1930's (per the two Editor & Publisher studies I referred to).

By: mkultra

mkultra — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:10:59 -0800

OK, look, there's some confusion here about what constitutes a "boycott". A boycott is when a person/group of people refuse to buy/use some good, usually as some means of protest. There's no "free speech" issue- YOU can go buy X, but I'M not going to. What this site advocates IS NOT a boycott. They're trying to rally people to coerce theatres/distributers into not showing the film. The (hoped for) net effect of this action is not only that I, as a "concerned patriot", do not get to see it, but you, as a disinterested third party, do not get to see it either. See the difference?

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:01:57 -0800

But a boycott is usually intended to have the same effect, isn't it? It's intended to exert influence on the behavior of the boycottee, which will inevitably have an effect on third parties—most of whom probably had no problem with the company or product. So, a boycott is not merely the exercise of a personal choice.

By: mkultra

mkultra — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:18:58 -0800

EB- the intent is the same, but the means are different- "lead by example" vs. "harassment".

By: techgnollogic

techgnollogic — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:34:18 -0800

So when Michael Moore took that injured kid to the K-Mart headquarters, to get them to stop selling ammunition to disinterested third parties, that was harrassment and coersion, right?

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:46:25 -0800

"So when Michael Moore took that injured kid to the K-Mart headquarters, to get them to stop selling ammunition to disinterested third parties, that was harrassment and coersion, right?—technollogic

That's loaded language that we're using, but, yeah, I don't see how it's different. It's different in that I happen to support the effort to get K-Mart to stop selling guns and I don't support the effort to get theaters to stop showing Farenheit 9/11. But it seems like pretty much the same sort of tactic with (abstractly) the same sort of intended effect. I have some trouble with the tendency to see the behavior of conservatives when they're trying to change the world to be prima facie outrageous while seeing similar attempts at world-changing on the part of liberals as not. Sure, I happen to agree that the conservatives' goals are outrageous. But trying to remake the world to something that more closely confrms to their ideals...why is it (the activity of trying to change things for everyone, not just them) wrong when they do it but right when we do it?

By: clavdivs

clavdivs — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:59:40 -0800

trout, baby WTF are you talking about. i do not recall responding to anything like what you posted.

By: DevilsAdvocate

DevilsAdvocate — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:15:29 -0800

Liberals support free speech. Perhaps you ought to read Nat Hentoff's excellent (but unjustly out-of-print) book Free Speech for Me—But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other.

By: Space Coyote

Space Coyote — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:24:31 -0800

Newsflash: techgnollogic compares a boy getting shot to someone's political sensibilities being tested.

By: techgnollogic

techgnollogic — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:56:14 -0800

Um, no, I compared selling bullets to selling movie tickets, but the merits of either case have nothing to do with my point. In both cases, someone wants to prevent some business from selling something they don't like to anybody else. Neither case fits the usual definition of boycott, and if one is harrassment and coersion then so is the other. You can't criticize the tactic in one case and not in the other. Either the tactic is fair or it isn't, and if your case is that it's ok to coerce and harrass bullet retailers because bullets can kill, then please teach us all about the benign and harmless history of ideas, and how no one has ever died over political differences. My guess is that ideological wars have killed a few more people than KMart ammunition.

By: crasspastor

crasspastor — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:26:09 -0800

I have yet to see a Dear Leader, Dubya Cult choir singer ever use anything more than absurd talking points, largely based upon American exceptionalist myth, ever. Astroturfing, as with roughing people up for, heaven forefend, disagreement with the thoughts you might have coursing through your brain is the manifestation of lazy emotionalism and narcissistic ignorance. It's all right there. The GOP and their enabling, racist, proto-fascist, fundamentalist, "you lookin' at me?" foot soldiers are a case in point, the symptom to end all symptoms, of what is going to destroy this country. The end game is such that nobody can actually win it. Except! Except to wingnuts (left and right) the ends always justify the means, no matter how myopic. What we need is a little pragmatism. Unfortunately it's gotten to the point that Michael Moore is adding up to be the sole fulcrum in which our teetering civilization now balances. Think about it! We await a movie, the medium at which the first ever marketed conservative American demigod got his start, recently bodily ascended, to magically save us from destruction. Need I remind anyone of what unabashed criminals we have running the show right now? Wherever you sit on the political spectrum, shit is seriously out of whack. That any of this is necessary testifies to the autumn of our once great democracy. It's come down to black and white, each side is good fighting the other side which is evil. I'm telling you. We need to find a happy medium or we will all be destroyed. Or at least unhappy for the rest of our lives.

By: techgnollogic

techgnollogic — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:10:58 -0800

Maybe it's not as bad as some think.

By: Guy Smiley

Guy Smiley — Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:59:35 -0800

Mi amigo Matt L, who does payroll for a certain chain of movie theaters that are local Landmarks, reports that due not only to moveamericaforward.org mistakenly putting him on the we-hate-Fahrenheit-9/11-and-you-can-do-something-about-it email list, but also certain others putting that list to their own we-love-Fahrenheit-9/11-and-thanks-for-showing-it purposes, he (and several other administrative-types [read: not in control of what movies are showing] now have hundreds and hundreds of both pro- and con- emails clogging his work inbox, disrupting his efforts to process the paychecks of dozens - nay, hundreds - of teenaged ticket sellers and popcorn jockeys across this great land. If you wish to register your opinion, please send it to the official comments email address of the theater or chain you wish to influence. Please. Don't let moveonamerica.org's shoddy fact checking drag you down with it.

By: mkultra

mkultra — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:04:58 -0800

techgnollogic- your straw-man argument aside, I'm just pointing out that what this site is suggesting is not a boycott. Neither is Moore marching into K-Mart. What's your point? HOWEVER, there's a WORLD of difference between attempting to stop a huge retailer from selling bullets over the counter and attempting to stop a movie theatre from showing a film you disagree with. Do I need to spell out the difference?