Comments on: Secular government, extremist population

Secular government, extremist population

ewkpates — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:58:38 -0800

Secular government, extremist population? How is this going to play out? Where is America headed? Europe, France in particular, may face secular challenges because of imigration and subculture integration, but what's the excuse on the other side of the Atlantic? Is the US prepared to challenge the Middle East and Africa for the coveted Most Fundamentalist Population Prize?

By: ewkpates

ewkpates — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:02:31 -0800

...and another thing. Why is "liberal" politics always at odds with "fundamentalist" religion? Jesus was as fundamentalist as it gets, and yet so sweetly liberal. How did this happen?

By: trharlan

trharlan — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:07:33 -0800

The second link: "This page is not available in a printer-friendly format, sorry (0)."

By: trharlan

trharlan — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:10:00 -0800

Jesus was as fundamentalist as it gets, and yet so sweetly liberal. How did this happen? Easy. Jesus was a libertarian.

By: ewkpates

ewkpates — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:11:29 -0800

My bad. Extremist Population?

By: plemeljr

plemeljr — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:24:25 -0800

A small group of Baptists leaving another group of Baptists is hardly indicative of extremist population [16 million SBC's/~280 million est. Americans = 5%]. I like Kevin Drum's analysis: it all comes down to the division between urban/rural not secular/religious people.

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:25:11 -0800

The states with the highest proportion of Southern Baptists are Mississippi, Alabama, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Kentucky. Hello from the economic and cultural powerhouses of the nation!

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:38:27 -0800

*blinks* So you're saying that based on Southern Baptists quitting the World Alliance that the U.S. population at large qualifies as "extremist"? Doesn't that sound a bit....cartoonish? Or hyperbolic. Coupled with the fact that our Bill of Rights' First Amendment "Freedom of Religion" doesn't exist as such in most of Africa and the Middle East, I'm not too convinced by the post of... Actually, ewkpates I guess I'm not sure what your post is trying to say. Preview: what plemeljr said

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:40:44 -0800

Jesus was a libertarian. You'd think he could have chilled a bit more on those guys down at the temple who were, after all, only providing a service.

By: callmejay

callmejay — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:01:30 -0800

Jesus was as fundamentalist as it gets No, he wasn't. He was decidedly undogmatic. More specifically than urban/rural, there's an educated/uneducated split which contributes to fundamentalism/liberalism. (I said "contributes." This does not imply all fundamentalists are uneducated or vice versa.) For those who question the US's fundamentalism, think about the fact that evolution is still controversial in many school districts. Much of the support for one side of the stem cell, abortion, and gay marriage debates comes from fundamentalism, not mere conservatism.

By: sfenders

sfenders — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:03:59 -0800

Well, the Southern Baptists may be a relatively small part of it, but Americans do tend to be quite religious, on average. To judge by this set of poll data, anyway. 46% of Americans describe themselves as "born-again or evangelical" Christians. Meanwhile, 59% believe that the events of the Book of Revelation will come to pass as described. I'd say that counts as "extreme" religion. 23% claimed to believe that the 2001 terrorist attacts were predicted in Revelation, with another 13% "not sure." I'd say that counts as "insane." On average, you've got about two thirds of the population who are very religious (ie. 66% belong to a church, 70% think it's okay to display the "Ten Commandments" in gov't buildings, 71% believe in the existence of "The Devil", 59% think religion "can answer all or most of today's problems"). About half of those, one third the total population, are really hard-core fundamentalist, believing various things that seem absolutely crazy to most of the rest of us. You know, the 30% who think the "Bible is the literal, word-for-word Truth as dictated by God" crowd. Also, 34% belive that the teachings of Islam encourage violance against non-Muslims. 34% believe in ghosts. Somewhere around 36% believe it's okay to post the Ten Commandments in public buildings, but not a verse from the Koran. 40% believe the government "can promote the teachings of a religion without harming the rights of people who do not belong to that religion". So yeah, extremist. Still has a way to go to catch up with (parts of) Africa, though.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:51:03 -0800

May I just say, as a New Zealander, how absolutely incredible those poll numbers seem? Not to mention terrifying? (About 10% of us go to church more than once a year).

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:54:13 -0800

how absolutely incredible those poll numbers seem? Not to mention terrifying? They're scary to us non-Christians here too. The biggest problem tho, is that some of them feel entitled to shape our laws and government and culture to their beliefs, or else.

By: mcsweetie

mcsweetie — Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:29:37 -0800

Is the US prepared to challenge the Middle East and Africa for the coveted Most Fundamentalist Population Prize? of course. we're number one!

By: nofundy

nofundy — Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:34:04 -0800

Aah! Sweet! A conversation regarding my favorite subject! I say too bad we can't put all the fundies in one place, like, say, South Carolina, and let them make their own little country. It is a fundie idea that I wholeheartedly endorse. That would raise the average education and intelligence levels of the US (according to callmejay), a nice little unintended side effect.

By: callmejay

callmejay — Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:08:12 -0800

I didn't say anything about intelligence, nofundy.

By: KirkJobSluder

KirkJobSluder — Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:58:50 -0800

I think the story is a bit more complex than what is described here. The SBC took a hard turn to the right in the late 70s and early 80s as fundamentalists gained control over the institutional structures of the church. This page has a nice overview of the conflict (scroll down). The SBC went through the same storming and norming that are currently rocking the Methodists and Episcopalians a generation ago and for the most part, moderates either left on their own accord or were forced out. Meanwhile, 59% believe that the events of the Book of Revelation will come to pass as described. Oh dear. The question was not "come to pass as described" and you have to match this up against the problem that only 36% of the population believes that the bible is the literal word of god. The question is phrased quite badly because non-fundamentalists believe that some of the metaphors of Revelation will happen in some way (ala the Apostolic Creed. Note that the lower-case catholic does not equate to Roman Catholicism) without a literal rapture or battle of Armageddon. Examples of this include the view popularized by C. S. Lewis that the fires of hell are a metaphor for eternity estranged from God. This would fit into the %59 who believe in the book of Revelation. Also FTR, I'm not a Christian and find that the basic theology of Chistianity is pretty darn sadistic when you get down to it. However, I don't think that it is really possible to talk intelligently about these issues based on stereotypes and misconceptions.