Comments on: How long, Catiline, will you continue to abuse our patience?

How long, Catiline, will you continue to abuse our patience?

kenko — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:51:31 -0800

In 63 B.C., Cicero gave his first speech against Catiline. You can hear the opening paragraph read in Latin, or read a translation into English. Though Cicero was a consul denouncing a rebel, the famous opening sentence is now frequently used by those challenging authority (even if it's just the tyranny of Richard Stallman).

By: matteo

matteo — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:09:02 -0800

it's interesting to note how poor Cicero (the unfortunate came from a pea-sized cancer -- a 'cicer' -- that one of his forefathers had on the tip of his nose) ended up being beheaded. moriar in patria saepe servata -- I'll die in the Fatherland I so often saved. bad, narcissistic politician, fantastic writer

By: kenko

kenko — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:05:41 -0800

I understand his poetry (like his epic about how he saved the Republic) is rather, uh, sub-par, though.

By: matteo

matteo — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:27:30 -0800

"how poor Cicero (the unfortunate name came from ..." my bad. well, kenko, you just have to discard his self-promoting stuff, as I said the man had an incredibly narcissistic personality. but usually his Latin just soars -- i suggest you check out his political science texts and the philosophical stuff

By: ltracey

ltracey — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:41:03 -0800

Indeed, his rhetoric is without equal in Latin, at least as far as my Latin teacher for six years was concerned. Interesting in the reading audio how he elides the "em" endings of some words: I never knew that. Then again, my Latin teacher (props to Dr. Kizner) was Bronx born and bred. :)

By: rdone

rdone — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:59:19 -0800

A grand FPP, amicus kenko. It was interesting to listen to Prof. Tarrant's rendition--except for the " W" pronunciation. Indoctrinated (to coin a phrase) in "Church Latin" as a youth, I am, horresco referens , overcome by comedic echoes of Baba Wawa (or Lily von Stupp) when I hear "v" sounded as "w." Tarrant employs a distinct Italian accent except for the Teutonic "v." Given that modern Romani pronounce their "v's, " is there a rational basis to presume the "walidity" or the "werisimilitude" of this? Nor have I ever heard of the elision of the genitive plural such as bonorum. It doesn't help the oratorical flow, either.

By: snarfodox

snarfodox — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:26:59 -0800

Philosophically he's actually a very good source on Epicurianism as well as Stoicism, particularly in his letters. Had he been a little less sluggish in response to these sorts of threats (or a little more ruthless) he may very well have made the transition from imperial advisor to emperor himself and saved Rome from the discord of Nero's reign (and subsequent contenders for the throne).

By: WolfDaddy

WolfDaddy — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:02:11 -0800

"Marc Tully" -- that was the name of my 11th grade math teacher. heh. Great post!

By: kenko

kenko — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:27:21 -0800

Thanks WolfDaddy—it was partially prompted by your comment in the election-postponement thread.

By: WolfDaddy

WolfDaddy — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:55:14 -0800

Well, I blush, kenko. Thanks. I amuse myself--not to mention make myself more than a bit paranoid--by noting the similarities between the state of the Roman Republic before its fall to the current state of our own.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:06:18 -0800

You're not the only one.

By: jaut

jaut — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:02:34 -0800

rdone: The explanation for the 'w' sound is that a 'V' in a Latin name is usually translated to 'OY' (Omicron Upsilon) in Greek writings of the time. For example, VITELLIUS ends up as OYITE??IOS.

By: jaut

jaut — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:04:44 -0800

On that last word, pretend the ?? are two Lambdas, and the S is a Sigma. My entities looked fine on preview. Rats.

By: kenko

kenko — Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:07:38 -0800

I thought that at the time "u" was used for both "u" and "v" (or at least, what we would now use a "v" for). That's the way it is in my edition of the Georgics, anyway (published by Cambridge) (though I note now that it's not that way in my editions of Horace or Catullus, or in Wheelock's Latin Reader and a book on Latin prose composition).

By: alumshubby

alumshubby — Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:25:09 -0800

For perhaps the millionth time, I'm wishing that there were a Babelfish transator between English and Latin.

By: stopgap

stopgap — Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:26:33 -0800

alumshubby: The closest thing is probably William Whitaker's Words program, which is really only a dictionary. It can parse almost any Latin word (or sentence) into its number, case, voice, tense, &c., but you have to be able to interpret how each word should be used in a sentence. It's almost necessary to know Latin anyway, and jsut use it as a tool to speed up parsing. There's also a handy web interface.