Comments on: Paoli, Indiana doesn't look so bad anymore...

Paoli, Indiana doesn't look so bad anymore...

PenDevil — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:50:45 -0800

The 60 best cheapest places to live in America.

By: PenDevil

PenDevil — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:54:21 -0800

Rich Karlgaard, author of the list and publisher of Forbes, has published Life 2.0: How People Across America Are Transforming Their Lives by Finding the Where of Their Happiness from which most of the list was taken.

By: psmealey

psmealey — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:04:59 -0800

I'm not sure how Portland, OR managed to make it into a list of "Bargains" (Bohemian or not). I love Portland. In the 8 years I lived in Seattle I made about 3 distinct attempts to try to relocate there (once with my band, and the other two times professionally). Even in boom times it seemed impossible to find a job without taking a 15% pay cut from Seattle, and rent and other living expenses were just as high. Since 2001, it has been ravaged by high unemployment, but from what I had gathered from friends that researched relocating there last year, it seems that little has changed. Regardless, it will always be my favorite small city in America, even if I never live there.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:13:36 -0800

Why didn't they just include Tashkent or Ulan Bator? They're less remote than some of the places Forbes chose. And some of the places that aren't remote I can state are awful from personal experience. Albany? I can smell its bus terminal from Boston on a hot day. Cleveland is pretty nice, and so are Wisconsin and Minnesota. But if Forbes loves Idaho and friggin' Texas so much, why doesn't it marry them?

By: jester69

jester69 — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:15:53 -0800

Man, was that a crappy UI or am I just dense. What ever happened to just giving people a nice list on one page?

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:16:29 -0800

I'm not so sure how Austin got on the list either. If a $312,000 house price (Austin, TX) indicates a cheap place to live, I'd hate to see expensive. I've lived in Austin for almost 15 years now (and in the general area my whole life), and recently, I've decided it really isn't all that cheap a place to live at all. I still like it here though, so until I can move to New Zealand, I'm not going anywhere. BTW, you can get many wonderful houses in Austin for well below $312K, but you might actually have to live IN the city and not out in the suburbs (and it won't be a spanking brand new house with a pool in the back yard). But no one seems to want to live IN the city anymore. There are about 6 really great older houses in good shape that have been on the market for over a year and under $125,000, but we are sort of "downtown-ish" so no one has been looking at them. Oh, and having a major university in your home town is only a good thing in one of two situations: you are either attending it or teaching at it. Otherwise, it's a pain in the butt.

By: ursus_comiter

ursus_comiter — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:17:53 -0800

Athens' music scene zapped onto the national radar screen in recent years with such homegrown bands as R.E.M, the Indigo Girls and the B-52s. Recent years? Wow.

By: Eekacat

Eekacat — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:17:59 -0800

SACRAMENTO? BOHEMIAN? Yeah right.

By: brownpau

brownpau — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:18:48 -0800

Man, was that a crappy UI or am I just dense. No, it was crappy. I gave up after I couldn't get past Birmingham, AL in "Steroid Cities." Their target attributes behave strangely. Must be geared towards popup-jaded AOL users.

By: Danf

Danf — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:19:21 -0800

psmealy, I agree, and how they could have *Ashland* and *cheap* in the same thought. Well it's beyond me. Maybe outer Medford. . . It IS a crappy format and I gave up on it before very long.

By: ursus_comiter

ursus_comiter — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:20:38 -0800

Even crappier, they're set by default to slide show mode. I was reading about one city and suddenly the window advances to the next one without so much as a by your leave!

By: fungible

fungible — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:24:57 -0800

Branson, MO? I guess if your quality-of-life requires easy access to Mel Tillis concerts.

By: leotrotsky

leotrotsky — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:26:57 -0800

Forget idaho: Bismarck N.D.? It's like living in the Gobi desert, but full of really white people. There is NOTHING there, or even remotely nearby. It is ridiculously flat & either ungodly hot, or ungodly cold. yeck.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:30:11 -0800

Cleveland a "bohemian bargain"? Gah. My company at the time asked me to move there about 5 years ago. I talked to a few residents around my age, and no one could really say anything except "it's not as bad as it used to be" and "there are some great suburbs." I've walked around downtown at night on multiple occasions, and it's dead dead dead. Sure, there are some bars in the Flats, and, yes, there's a good symphony and a museum or two, but eveyone I know with any gumption has gotten the hell outta there.

By: PenDevil

PenDevil — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:34:12 -0800

Before the big-city-or-nothing types wail on the link even further I should mention the list is skewed to people with families who are looking to cut down on 2 hour commutes to work in order to actually have some time to spend with their kids.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:32:24 -0800

i'll say a good word for hendersonville nc ... my mother lives there and it's really quite nice and punta gorda fl? ... well, not anymore, i'm afraid

By: JanetLand

JanetLand — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:37:23 -0800

Were there any cities with a house price under $200,000? I don't think so. Yeesh. Not my idea of "cheap." Yeah, Punta Gorda made me laugh.

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:48:38 -0800

I see Baltimore's HBO-based ad campaign (aka The Wire) continues to draw folks in to a city whose cosmopolitan shell rests lightly on a yolk of poverty and serious social problems. That and there's not a whole lot to do in the Inner Harbor. Or places to park. The only thing Bohemian about that city is the beer.

By: 40 Watt

40 Watt — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:00:36 -0800

Ann Arbor, "CHEAP"?? Good lord, people. I moved to Chicago FROM Ann Arbor and was able to afford twice the apartment in a significantly better neighborhood. My wife and I even eventually bought ourselves a place, something that we'd never have been able to do without moving to Ypsilanti or Plymouth. Ann Arbor only appears cheap if you're from New York, like half the U-M population.

By: QuestionableSwami

QuestionableSwami — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:04:21 -0800

I see Baltimore's HBO-based ad campaign (aka The Wire) continues to draw folks in to a city whose cosmopolitan shell rests lightly on a yolk of poverty and serious social problems. I second that. I practically spewed coffee all over my monitor when I saw Baltimore listed as a Bohemian Bargain. It is neither of those things. But poverty and social ills it has in spades.

By: shinynewnick

shinynewnick — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:12:05 -0800

Branson, MO? I guess if your quality-of-life requires easy access to Mel Tillis concerts. Sadly, Mel isn't here full time anymore. He does shows occasionally in town, though. That being said, it is a nice area, and relatively cheap living expenses. Much more to offer than your average Missouri town with a population less than 10,000. Not a bustling metro area of course, but it works for me.

By: glenwood

glenwood — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:30:49 -0800

jesus that may be the actual worst website ever. i cannot find the fucking list! ARg. I live in Greensboro, NC. 2 hours from the mountains, 2 hours from the beach, 1 hour from RTP. I live in a 2000 sq foot home in an old neighborhood that cost 130k. I can ride my bike downtown to work. NC has lots of great little cities that are cheap to live in.

By: j

Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:45:37 -0800

I live in Austin and I love it, but it is the most expensive place to live in Texas. Even Houston and Dallas have lower housing costs than Austin. And frankly, I think that "average" of $312k is pretty low. Orb, just out of curiosity, where are those cool old houses that are in the city? I would love to find something like that. Averything I've seen downtown is 600k or more..

By: Mars Saxman

Mars Saxman — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:49:29 -0800

SACRAMENTO? BOHEMIAN? Yeah right. My thought exactly. Sacramento is "bohemian" to about the same degree that it is a suburb of San Francisco. i cannot find the fucking list! There isn't one; it's some weird little slideshow gadget that only shows you one city at a time. Before the big-city-or-nothing types wail on the link even further I should mention the list is skewed to people with families who are looking to cut down on 2 hour commutes to work in order to actually have some time to spend with their kids. Ahh, well, that was their mistake - everyone knows you have to wait to have kids until you retire, if you want any chance at an interesting, fulfilling life.

By: shepd

shepd — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:12:22 -0800

Ummm, if you want cheap housing and growing cities, why don't you just move to Canada? :-D I can easily find quality housing within 30 minutes of Canada's busiest city (Toronto) that's under $150k US. If you don't mind what/where you're living in, you could probably get a place for about $75k US.

By: moonbird

moonbird — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:49:26 -0800

Gawd, not Hendersonville... they play muzak from speakers blasting along Main Street and the have one of the highest per-capita rates of sex offenders in the Southeast. I suppose if you're at the brink of death, it's pleasant enough, what with its quaint overpriced antique shops and pig races. I think that approximately one democrat lives in town. Surprisingly, two almost as equally affordable towns within the same geogrpahic radius (but much funkier, more diverse and ecologically friendly) were left out: Boone and Asheville. Hell, they may be on there, but I couldn't stand the UI anymore either.

By: rushmc

rushmc — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:54:37 -0800

Iowa City, eh? Anyone know the place? Ummm, if you want cheap housing and growing cities, why don't you just move to Canada? Recommendations?

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:55:33 -0800

I think that "average" of $312k is pretty low. Agreed. We were living in an apartment on the south-side (78704 Not just a zip code - a way of life.) and wanted to buy a house in that same area having lived there for 12 years, but ... in that area (run down as it was) houses were already going for a quarter million bucks last year. And they were no better than the one we finally got on the north-central side for under $100k (needs a little work but not too much - HUGE yard, nice neighbors). Some of the houses our real estate agent kept trying to show us were TINY, with no yards at all, almost in the 'burbs and yeah ... well over $300k. Well over. j: I'll email you later with some information about the location.

By: MattD

MattD — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:02:00 -0800

Me three (or is eight) on hating that UI. I also (more substantively) dispute the premise. People don't buy $650,000 houses in Suffolk County and ride the LIRR for 2 hours roundtrip every day because they love New York culture. They do it because all those cheap cities are cheap for supply/demand reasons, most of important of which is low salaries. Every time I've looked at opportunities in "cheap" areas, I've always concluded that I'm financially better off working in NYC even net of the bill to live within commuting range.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:18:31 -0800

Shepd -- Shhhhhhh!! And I can attest to Lincoln, NE's porch-style, cheap living. Here's the list (PLACE/CITY POP/HOUSE PRICE): PORCH-SWING COMUNITIES

Ashland, OR 22,000 $320,000
Bismark, ND 56,000 $210,000
Boise, ID 186,000 $260,000
Bowling Green, OH 30,000 $211,000
Columbia, MO 85,000 $255,000
Des Moines, IA 199,000 $251,000
Fayetteville, AR 58,000 $239,000
Lincoln, NE 226,000 $245,000
Punta Gorda, FL 14,000 $310,000
Spokane, WA 196,000 $227,000

HAPPY HOOTERVILLES

Bisbee, AZ 6,700 $255,000
Douglas, GA 10,639 $206,000
East Stroudsburg, PA 9,888 $259,000
Fairhope, AL 12,480 $250,000
French Lick, IN 1,941 $214,000
Grants Pass, OR 24,470 $320,000
Hendersonville, NC 10,420 $217,000
McCall, ID 2,084 $265,000
Oxford, MS 11,756 $235,000
Traverse City, MI 14,532 $234,000

IQ CAMPUSES

Albany, NY 876,000 $328,000
Ann Arbor, MI 579,000 $377,000
Athens, GA 153,000 $239,000
Boulder, CO 291,000 $539,000 (!!)
Charlottesville, VA 160,000 $395,000
Iowa City, IA 74,000 $248,000
Lawrence, KS 100,000 $218,000
Madison, WI 427,000 $268,000
Missoula, MT 72,000 $253,000
State College, PA 136,000 $215,000

STEROID CITIES

Austin, TX 1,200,000 $312,000
Birmingham, AL 921,000 $275,000
Colorado Springs, CO 517,000 $274,000
Las Vegas, NV 1,600,000 $310,000
McAllen, TX 569,000 $248,000
Naples, FL 251,000 $498,000
Provo, UT 369,000 $329,000
Reno, NV 340,000 $470,000
Tucson, AZ 844,000 $325,000
Yuma, AZ 160,000 $308,000

BOHEMIAN BARGAINS

Baltimore, MD 651,000 $369,000
Cleveland, OH 478,000 $255,000
Denver, CO 572,000 $361,000
Milwaukee, WI 597,000 $332,000
Pittsburgh, PA 335,000 $288,000
Portland, OR 529,000 $312,000
Raleigh, NC 276,000 $268,000
Sacramento, CA 426,000 $349,000
St. Louis, MO 348,000 $247,000
St. Paul, MN 269,000 $397,000

TELECOMMUTING HEAVENS

Alburquerque, NM 449,000 $255,000
Bend, OR 52,000 $381,000
Branson, MO 7,000 $212,000
Burlington, VT 39,000 $348,000
Durango, CO 14,000 $273,000
Hilton Head, SC 34,000 $312,000
Hot Springs, AR 36,000 $232,000
Moab, UT 5,000 $364,000
Sandpoint, ID 6,835 $287,000
Sedona, AZ 10,000 $499,000

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:19:19 -0800

(Dammit, preview took away all my hard-spaces. Sorry!)

By: gyc

gyc — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:30:40 -0800

Ann Arbor, MI 579,000 $377,000 Whoa, Ann Arbor has nowhere close to 579,000 people. They're only off by 460,000+.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:46:16 -0800

Hmm. For that one it says, "Metro Area" which may just be everything including the burbs. But still, that's a huge discrepancy. Also, I'd like to add that I think their housing price numbers are way off, in both directions. There's no way that the average home in Lincoln, NE costs $245,000. For that kind of money you could get a very nice place. It's more like $150,000. And if the average price for a roof over your head in Boulder, CO is over $500,000, the nice people over at Forbes need to re-examine their definition of "CHEAP".

By: shoepal

shoepal — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:03:06 -0800

Thanks for the list Civil_Disobedient! You rock.

By: pitchblende

pitchblende — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:09:52 -0800

...the nice people over at Forbes need to re-examine their definition of "CHEAP" Not for their target audience they don't. But this isn't supposed to be simply a median home price anyway. Look at their methodology page, the house price is for somthing they call a "median professional class home": Our price cutoff was $500,000 for a median professional-class home. Just what is a "median professional class home"? We considered it to be a 2,500-square-foot house on a quarter-acre lot, with new amenities such as kitchen, bathroom, flooring, windows and paint--located in a nice neighborhood.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:18:06 -0800

the nice people over at Forbes need to re-examine their definition of "CHEAP" it's all relative. what do you think the income of the average Forbes' subscriber (or rack buyer) is?

By: Zurishaddai

Zurishaddai — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:26:26 -0800

Ummm, if you want cheap housing and growing cities, why don't you just move to Canada? :-D Because they would pay me in Canadian dollars. Gawd, not Hendersonville... they play muzak from speakers blasting along Main Street... But I did have some really good mole enchiladas on the highway leading out of town. In that area, I think Waynesville, N.C., is where it's at, if you want a town smaller than Asheville Paoli, Indiana... Oh, and why is this page titled "Paoli, Indiana..." Having actually visited there during my Bloomington days (for a two-night "vacation" if you can believe it! — I just asked my wife what we did there and she said, "Try to find a place to eat and end up at Wendy's, right?"), I'm kinda curious... I hear the skiing is good in winter, tho... ;)

By: Shoeburyness

Shoeburyness — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:55:42 -0800

I have to agree that these guys are on crack. Boulder? CHEAP? Denver and Colorado Springs aren't real cheap, either, but the inclusion of Boulder is particularly egregious. Even towns NEAR Boulder are more expensive than other Denver metro areas. Durango, well, maybe. Never lived there. But I've lived in Denver, Colorado Springs and Boulder and they are in no way cheap.

By: moonbird

moonbird — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:38:20 -0800

Yeah, Z, I left out Waynesville and Black Mountain, both are great.

By: Vetinari

Vetinari — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:59:23 -0800

it's all relative. what do you think the income of the average Forbes' subscriber (or rack buyer) is? Significantly lower than the income the average Forbes' subscriber would like to be perceived as having. Forbes always sort of struck me as being targeted squarely at the white suburban bling-bling crowd. "Ha ha, I'm so rich I think Austin's cheap." Dumbasses. I do have to agree in a qualified way with their assessment of Pittsburgh, however - the city is cheap, pleasant to live in, and reasonably unboring.

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:17:31 -0800

Ummm, if you want cheap housing and growing cities, why don't you just move to Canada? :-D I would if I had any skills that Canada needed/wanted. Why can't my pretty face be enough?

By: FormlessOne

FormlessOne — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:43:06 -0800

Their UI was designed, apparently, with one purpose in mind - to put as much advertising real estate in front of the viewer as possible. I mean, damn.

By: willpie

willpie — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:16:27 -0800

Boy, it's a good thing they put my hometown on there. There totally weren't enough people moving there before this article came out.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:19:38 -0800

Why aren't there any Canadian cities listed? I'm pretty sure we're in America.

By: drezdn

drezdn — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:26:59 -0800

Madison is probably the most expensive place to live in the state of Wisconsin. I do think (despite the fact that I wouldn't mind moving), Milwaukee's starting to catch on, especially among chicago people.

By: Orb

Orb — Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:13:13 -0800

Thanks for posting a list, Civil. That UI had me losing interest about a milli-second after finding Austin. I can't believe McAllen is on it too. I lived there for a very brief while once, and it sucked. willpie: Oh yeah, see Austin used to be a really cool place to live (now it's just sort of cool), and then it started getting listed on all these lists of super places to live. Everyone moved here, and now it's starting to suck. Such is the way of the world. I always hate seeing Austin getting on these lists. It means more people from far away places are going to decide it's better than where they are now, they'll move here, and then they'll do their best to make it just like the place they left. I had a conversation with a recent Austin arrival a few years ago, and she said she'd moved here because it was so green and had so many trees. Two years later I ran into her at a city council meeting about putting in some new roads, and she was on the side saying "chop down the trees, we need more roads." Umm ... yeah. So much for green and trees. Hey, J ... I emailed you at the addy listed on your profile.