The Curious Case of George's Medals
August 23, 2004 10:42 PM Subscribe
The Curious Case of George's Medals. Does this picture contain a medal that GW Bush did not earn? All day at the Democratic Underground they've been congratulation themselves for finding the smoking gun. Is it really that easy? Acutally looking at a picture? Must the president *now* release his records to prove that he wasn't wearing a medal that isn't documented in any of his records?
I don't know. I was photographed in academic regalia for my BS in Math long before I earned it. I know, I eventually did earn it and I'd guess that's the point here, that maybe Bush didn't, but my point is that those photos that my family took of my in cap and gown weren't made to document my diploma.
So ... is this really that big a deal? Is this the kind of triviality that's really worth attacking someone over? Wouldn't it be better to bring up stuff like Abu Ghraib and the missing WMDs and deficits, the costs and risks of trying to use military power to reshape the world politically? Or is most of the electorate really going to be swayed by the swift boat vets and photos of Bush with unearned medals?
posted by weston at 11:09 PM on August 23, 2004
So ... is this really that big a deal? Is this the kind of triviality that's really worth attacking someone over? Wouldn't it be better to bring up stuff like Abu Ghraib and the missing WMDs and deficits, the costs and risks of trying to use military power to reshape the world politically? Or is most of the electorate really going to be swayed by the swift boat vets and photos of Bush with unearned medals?
posted by weston at 11:09 PM on August 23, 2004
Maybe he caught the medal Kerry flung.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:16 PM on August 23, 2004
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:16 PM on August 23, 2004
So ... is this really that big a deal? Is this the kind of triviality that's really worth attacking someone over? Wouldn't it be better to bring up stuff like Abu Ghraib and the missing WMDs and deficits, the costs and risks of trying to use military power to reshape the world politically? Or is most of the electorate really going to be swayed by the swift boat vets and photos of Bush with unearned medals?
Sadly, yes. See this article
I fear, though, that people on both sides of the major parties would rather quibble over ancient history that present cogent arguments for future policy.
I'm dismayed that Kerry, for example, seems to prefer making more of his four months in 'Nam than his 20 years in the Senate. People will tire of this, and he might do better, then, to point out the major legislation he has triumphed, and show that he has in fact always stood up for a strong military and a fiscally-responsible government.
posted by Ayn Marx at 11:35 PM on August 23, 2004
Sadly, yes. See this article
I fear, though, that people on both sides of the major parties would rather quibble over ancient history that present cogent arguments for future policy.
I'm dismayed that Kerry, for example, seems to prefer making more of his four months in 'Nam than his 20 years in the Senate. People will tire of this, and he might do better, then, to point out the major legislation he has triumphed, and show that he has in fact always stood up for a strong military and a fiscally-responsible government.
posted by Ayn Marx at 11:35 PM on August 23, 2004
People will tire of this...
No they won't. People are idiots.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:40 PM on August 23, 2004
No they won't. People are idiots.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:40 PM on August 23, 2004
Here is a scathing look at George Bush's medals. When this breaks, it's going to be big.
posted by 2sheets at 11:47 PM on August 23, 2004
posted by 2sheets at 11:47 PM on August 23, 2004
Argh! Both parties are filled with asshats. There are so many legitimate things to attack Bush (or Kerry) for that seeing this fills me with loathing for the Democrats now. First, the Swift Boat thing made me consider voting for Kerry, but if this does break and the Democrats persue it, I will swing back to Badarnick.
Our country is in the crapper and this is the best they can come up with?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:42 AM on August 24, 2004
Our country is in the crapper and this is the best they can come up with?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:42 AM on August 24, 2004
Heh. Now that I've read Ayn Marx's link, maybe this is the best the country can come up with. Let's just dump democracy and put the Church in charge again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:11 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:11 AM on August 24, 2004
Granted, it seems juvenile on the surface. OTOH, it will be amusing to see the Right suddenly scramble to plead for a more mature level of discussion in the face of this after their earlier jackassery. That is their usual modus operendi.
posted by RavinDave at 2:33 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by RavinDave at 2:33 AM on August 24, 2004
> Let's just dump democracy and put the Church in charge again.
City-states. They're the biggest political entity where all the voters understand all the issues because they have personal experience with all the issues. Make that small city-states.
posted by jfuller at 2:34 AM on August 24, 2004
City-states. They're the biggest political entity where all the voters understand all the issues because they have personal experience with all the issues. Make that small city-states.
posted by jfuller at 2:34 AM on August 24, 2004
The trouble with pulling a turnabout on something like this is that while republicans are very very good at manufactured outrage, liberals can't seem to stir themselves up into a proper level of anger unless they actually mean it. So it will come off as simply the petty attack that it is. Meanwhile, the way the republicans do it is to round up a bunch of bitter old veterans, give them a righteous-sounding name, and send them on a holy quest for the truth. It's effective because they do it all with a straight face, no matter how stupid it all looks. Rove and Co. seem to hvae very little respect for their base, but it appears, at least so far, that they can get away with it.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:09 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 3:09 AM on August 24, 2004
As turnabout -- I was pretty impressed with Al Franken's parody spot on AA today: "Alabama Reservists for Truth". Too bad that won't see a wider audience.
posted by RavinDave at 3:20 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by RavinDave at 3:20 AM on August 24, 2004
When you only have two parties, this is what tends to happen to politics.
posted by reklaw at 3:24 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by reklaw at 3:24 AM on August 24, 2004
Wait....
Did you really just link to the DU forums as an FPP?
Are you fucking kidding me?
So, there is a discussion going on about this over there, and now you want us to chat about it on the blue? If people want to say that a degree of newsy stuff should be permitted, could we please at least agree that links to a discussion board from a overtly partisan site not be permitted? Or do we want to call open season and begin to link to MoveOn forums, Kos, LGF, Freeperland, etc.?
posted by Seth at 7:32 AM on August 24, 2004
Did you really just link to the DU forums as an FPP?
Are you fucking kidding me?
So, there is a discussion going on about this over there, and now you want us to chat about it on the blue? If people want to say that a degree of newsy stuff should be permitted, could we please at least agree that links to a discussion board from a overtly partisan site not be permitted? Or do we want to call open season and begin to link to MoveOn forums, Kos, LGF, Freeperland, etc.?
posted by Seth at 7:32 AM on August 24, 2004
That picture is troubling indeed. Can a real American vote for a MAN who PLUCKS his EYEBROWS? It's gonna take, I dunno, four or five news stories about Bush clearing brush on his ranch to remind be that he is in fact a real man.
posted by crank at 7:34 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by crank at 7:34 AM on August 24, 2004
Argh! Both parties are filled with asshats. There are so many legitimate things to attack Bush (or Kerry) for that seeing this fills me with loathing for the Democrats now.
That's an understandable reaction, but consider this: Kerry has been attacking Bush on the legitimate issues for months now. The press won't cover it. It's a sad reality that to reach the average American voter, you need to sling shit about stuff like this.
I wish everyone could take the high road, too. But to win an election, you need to get the most votes, and the high road doesn't pass through enough towns.
posted by jpoulos at 7:40 AM on August 24, 2004
That's an understandable reaction, but consider this: Kerry has been attacking Bush on the legitimate issues for months now. The press won't cover it. It's a sad reality that to reach the average American voter, you need to sling shit about stuff like this.
I wish everyone could take the high road, too. But to win an election, you need to get the most votes, and the high road doesn't pass through enough towns.
posted by jpoulos at 7:40 AM on August 24, 2004
Did you really just link to the DU forums as an FPP?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Did you really just post another comment that offers nothing to the debate but more meta-bitching? Are you fucking kidding me?
posted by jpoulos at 7:41 AM on August 24, 2004
Are you fucking kidding me?
Did you really just post another comment that offers nothing to the debate but more meta-bitching? Are you fucking kidding me?
posted by jpoulos at 7:41 AM on August 24, 2004
Either the charge is true or it isn't. It stands on its own legs. Moaning about the source seems like a frantic attempt to shift attention away from the crux of the matter.
posted by RavinDave at 7:43 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by RavinDave at 7:43 AM on August 24, 2004
RavinDave,
Your argument would be valid if my point it raising it was to avoid the topic. But that isn't my point. My point is how this is a shitty FPP. I don't give a shit about the substance of the post. The fact is that this kind of crap is a HORRIBLE FPP. Basically, the FPP is this: "They are discussing this over at TinFoilLand, what do you guys think?" If Metafilter is supposed to be something, surely it cannot bear the reading that it exists to chat about things that are being chatted about elsewhere.
Surely... surely, Matt can't let a DU Forum link stand as an FPP. If he does, then its open season for PP to link to LGF or Freeperland.
posted by Seth at 7:48 AM on August 24, 2004
Your argument would be valid if my point it raising it was to avoid the topic. But that isn't my point. My point is how this is a shitty FPP. I don't give a shit about the substance of the post. The fact is that this kind of crap is a HORRIBLE FPP. Basically, the FPP is this: "They are discussing this over at TinFoilLand, what do you guys think?" If Metafilter is supposed to be something, surely it cannot bear the reading that it exists to chat about things that are being chatted about elsewhere.
Surely... surely, Matt can't let a DU Forum link stand as an FPP. If he does, then its open season for PP to link to LGF or Freeperland.
posted by Seth at 7:48 AM on August 24, 2004
The Outstanding Unit Award is a decoration of the United States Air Force which was first created in 1954. The decoration is awarded as a ribbon to any command of the U.S. Air Force which performs exceptionally meritorious service, accomplishes specific acts of outstanding achievement, excels in combat operations against an armed enemy of the United States, or conducts with distinction military operations involving conflict with, or exposure to, a hostile action by any opposing foreign force.
If it's indeed valid, I'm curious as to how he obtained it, as the criteria for the medal focuses primarily on combat. There are some vague rumors that perhaps his military history during that period is being deliberately obfuscated for a good reason, and this may be a hint towards the truth.
If it's not valid, then he's committed a crime merely by wearing it on his uniform, according to AR 670-1, section 1-19:
The wear of any HQDA-prescribed decoration, service medal, badge, service ribbon, lapel button, or
insignia by persons not authorized to do so, or their use of such items to defraud or to misrepresent their identification or status, is prohibited. Persons violating this provision are subject to punishment under the statutes listed in sections
701 and 704, title 18, U.S. Code (18 USC 701, 704).
It's not a big deal compared with some of the more pertinent problems he's introduced, but it does add just one more question to the overwhelming pile of unanswered questions building up around him.
posted by FormlessOne at 8:04 AM on August 24, 2004
If it's indeed valid, I'm curious as to how he obtained it, as the criteria for the medal focuses primarily on combat. There are some vague rumors that perhaps his military history during that period is being deliberately obfuscated for a good reason, and this may be a hint towards the truth.
If it's not valid, then he's committed a crime merely by wearing it on his uniform, according to AR 670-1, section 1-19:
The wear of any HQDA-prescribed decoration, service medal, badge, service ribbon, lapel button, or
insignia by persons not authorized to do so, or their use of such items to defraud or to misrepresent their identification or status, is prohibited. Persons violating this provision are subject to punishment under the statutes listed in sections
701 and 704, title 18, U.S. Code (18 USC 701, 704).
It's not a big deal compared with some of the more pertinent problems he's introduced, but it does add just one more question to the overwhelming pile of unanswered questions building up around him.
posted by FormlessOne at 8:04 AM on August 24, 2004
Wait....
Did you really just link to the DU forums as an FPP?
Are you fucking kidding me?
*cries*
posted by matteo at 8:04 AM on August 24, 2004
Did you really just link to the DU forums as an FPP?
Are you fucking kidding me?
*cries*
posted by matteo at 8:04 AM on August 24, 2004
Seth ...
I hate clowns. Understand this.
However, if some guy in a clown suit walks up to me and lets me know that my house is on fire, I'm still going to reach for a bucket of water. Why? Because the information is more important than the source. Admittedly, I might find out later that he was wrong, but ... better safe than sorry.
posted by grabbingsand at 8:10 AM on August 24, 2004
I hate clowns. Understand this.
However, if some guy in a clown suit walks up to me and lets me know that my house is on fire, I'm still going to reach for a bucket of water. Why? Because the information is more important than the source. Admittedly, I might find out later that he was wrong, but ... better safe than sorry.
posted by grabbingsand at 8:10 AM on August 24, 2004
I would imagine that any link provided, no matter it's source is available for debunking, not based on the origin but on alternate sources? If PP wants to post from LGF or Free Republic I'm sure there are many people capable of finding opposing viewpoints. If the post is not inflammatory and produces a measured and reasonable discussion (as if...) then the source of the comment should not be the point of discussion.
Not caring about the subject of the post makes your comment a waste of time - if you have something to add that shows it to be false or misguided then post it. Don't poop in the blue, stick to the grey.
Personally I could less than a crap about GWB's alleged history in the military - it makes not one jot of difference to his capabilities as President, in the same way that Kerry's service is not in any way related to his possible future role as President.
posted by longbaugh at 8:14 AM on August 24, 2004
Not caring about the subject of the post makes your comment a waste of time - if you have something to add that shows it to be false or misguided then post it. Don't poop in the blue, stick to the grey.
Personally I could less than a crap about GWB's alleged history in the military - it makes not one jot of difference to his capabilities as President, in the same way that Kerry's service is not in any way related to his possible future role as President.
posted by longbaugh at 8:14 AM on August 24, 2004
But I joined the AF in 1980, spent 14 years serving and remember early in my career people wearing the AFOUA when the unit they were in had previously earned the award, even when those people had not been assigned to the unit when the award was awarded.
This practice ended shortly after I enlisted, and I never was allowed to do it.
folks, it certainly was common practice to wear ribbons your unit earned from before you were a part of it. an air force general (creech, i think) stopped the practice.
posted by taumeson at 8:27 AM on August 24, 2004
This practice ended shortly after I enlisted, and I never was allowed to do it.
folks, it certainly was common practice to wear ribbons your unit earned from before you were a part of it. an air force general (creech, i think) stopped the practice.
posted by taumeson at 8:27 AM on August 24, 2004
Jesus, doesn't anyone think it's at least interesting and potentially relevant that W may have DISGUISED himself as a Small Arms Expert Marksman? It bears further research. A liar is one thing: somebody who gets a freaking COSTUME in order to facilitate a lie is quite another, and speaks volumes about the character of a man.
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:28 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:28 AM on August 24, 2004
Most of us are already under the impression that he is a conniving little weasel - why not concentrate on convincing those set on voting for him that his policies directly harm them?
I really think this SBVFT vs. dopehead-deserter stuff is diverting attention from the genuine issues surrounding the decisions made by the President. The petty squabbling around who served and who didn't is causing damage to both causes by drawing resources away from genuine debate.
I lose count of how many posts we have had about these side issues and I can assure you that the hardcore Republican voters don't care about the arguments on both sides. Change the record and try making them see how they would be better off under Kerry's command...
That is, unless you'd rather spend another four years under Bush.
posted by longbaugh at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2004
I really think this SBVFT vs. dopehead-deserter stuff is diverting attention from the genuine issues surrounding the decisions made by the President. The petty squabbling around who served and who didn't is causing damage to both causes by drawing resources away from genuine debate.
I lose count of how many posts we have had about these side issues and I can assure you that the hardcore Republican voters don't care about the arguments on both sides. Change the record and try making them see how they would be better off under Kerry's command...
That is, unless you'd rather spend another four years under Bush.
posted by longbaugh at 8:39 AM on August 24, 2004
The petty squabbling around who served and who didn't is causing damage to both causes by drawing resources away from genuine debate.
Are you sure one or other cause is not best served by avoiding genuine debate?
posted by biffa at 8:46 AM on August 24, 2004
Are you sure one or other cause is not best served by avoiding genuine debate?
posted by biffa at 8:46 AM on August 24, 2004
Yeah, no kidding... Kerry doesn't want to talk about his past 25 years, that's why he won't shut up about Vietnam.
posted by techgnollogic at 8:54 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by techgnollogic at 8:54 AM on August 24, 2004
On the validity of the source, Seth might have a valid point in general, but I submit that this particular link distinguishes itself from (say) the partisan bluster of a NewsMax article by virtue of:
Webliography:
USA Today source of documents used in this report: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-02-14-bush-docs.htm
Source for ARG22: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/2-Discharge.pdf
Source for AF11: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-4_2004_Personn...
Source for "military biography": http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-1_2004_Personn...
Even if you disagree with the sources, at least it is taking the trouble to cite them, rather than dropping Malkinesque inuendo.
posted by RavinDave at 8:57 AM on August 24, 2004
Webliography:
USA Today source of documents used in this report: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-02-14-bush-docs.htm
Source for ARG22: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/2-Discharge.pdf
Source for AF11: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-4_2004_Personn...
Source for "military biography": http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-1_2004_Personn...
Even if you disagree with the sources, at least it is taking the trouble to cite them, rather than dropping Malkinesque inuendo.
posted by RavinDave at 8:57 AM on August 24, 2004
That is exactly my point biffa, I just phrased it so that those on the other side of the fence wouldn't get too miffed.
; )
Call it a subtle call for reasonable debate.
posted by longbaugh at 9:08 AM on August 24, 2004
; )
Call it a subtle call for reasonable debate.
posted by longbaugh at 9:08 AM on August 24, 2004
My Tinfoil(tm) contribution:
You heard it here first. If I add up the strange medals, the missing service time and the oddly amended and "lost" records it almost has all the earmarks of someone who was participating in some sort of operational capacity that isn't going to want to be on the records.
Imagine the scene... the left continues to whip it all into a frenzy, pinning more and more rhetoric ont he "Kerry served you didn't" thing and buying into the idea that service - fitness for Presidency because they think this time it is in their favor.
Then BLAM - under pressure to "reveal the records" the Republicans reluctantly let out that GWB was on some sort of covert op at the time - he's no SEAL or anything, but maybe flying cover or doing ferry work.
WHAM - instant, reluctant hero and all the work Kerry put into the "he's a deserter" thing looks stupid and we have 4 more years of GWB.
It would almost be worth it to see the stupid look on Michael Moores face.
posted by soulhuntre at 9:44 AM on August 24, 2004
You heard it here first. If I add up the strange medals, the missing service time and the oddly amended and "lost" records it almost has all the earmarks of someone who was participating in some sort of operational capacity that isn't going to want to be on the records.
Imagine the scene... the left continues to whip it all into a frenzy, pinning more and more rhetoric ont he "Kerry served you didn't" thing and buying into the idea that service - fitness for Presidency because they think this time it is in their favor.
Then BLAM - under pressure to "reveal the records" the Republicans reluctantly let out that GWB was on some sort of covert op at the time - he's no SEAL or anything, but maybe flying cover or doing ferry work.
WHAM - instant, reluctant hero and all the work Kerry put into the "he's a deserter" thing looks stupid and we have 4 more years of GWB.
It would almost be worth it to see the stupid look on Michael Moores face.
posted by soulhuntre at 9:44 AM on August 24, 2004
soulhuntre, that's not the first time it's been suggested, but think about it. It's not as if the Administration hasn't been in the position of choosing between political advantage and maintaining the secrecy of classified information, and they've never hesitated to choose the former. Second, to all accounts Dubya was *ahem* not a very distinguished pilot; it seems extravagantly improbable that of the pool available he'd be chosen for anything sensitive, or even anything that mattered at all.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:57 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:57 AM on August 24, 2004
I certainly understand the point, but then again this is a matter of political advantage. A sandbag like this is MUCH better saved till a week or so before the election. Play it too early and you just show you're hand.
posted by soulhuntre at 10:10 AM on August 24, 2004
posted by soulhuntre at 10:10 AM on August 24, 2004
(off topic)
A liar is one thing: somebody who gets a freaking COSTUME in order to facilitate a lie is quite another, and speaks volumes about the character of a man.
On the Eve of the last Presidential election, PBS compared the lives of Bush & Gore which were oddly similar. When they were on the campaign trail for their father elections for Congress both were in the military. In the photographs during the campaign Gore is wearing his uniform, Bush is out of uniform. FWIW
posted by thomcatspike at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2004
A liar is one thing: somebody who gets a freaking COSTUME in order to facilitate a lie is quite another, and speaks volumes about the character of a man.
On the Eve of the last Presidential election, PBS compared the lives of Bush & Gore which were oddly similar. When they were on the campaign trail for their father elections for Congress both were in the military. In the photographs during the campaign Gore is wearing his uniform, Bush is out of uniform. FWIW
posted by thomcatspike at 10:19 AM on August 24, 2004
"Who cares if it isn't true. Make the bastard deny it."
--Hunter S. Thompson in Better Than Sex
The ABB in me says this is a perfect opportunity for one of those pesky 527 groups. The cynic in me realizes this is what passes for political discourse in the USA. The stoic in me notes that we can expect no better. The voter in me would prefer to hear discussion about policy questions as opposed to questions of character [assassination]. The Mefi in me realizes this post should probably just be deleted so we can move on to grounds less trod.
<tongue position="in-cheek">
Me? I hope this gets play and turns into soulhuntre's fantasy for the sheer entertainment value.
</togue>
posted by Fezboy! at 10:20 AM on August 24, 2004
--Hunter S. Thompson in Better Than Sex
The ABB in me says this is a perfect opportunity for one of those pesky 527 groups. The cynic in me realizes this is what passes for political discourse in the USA. The stoic in me notes that we can expect no better. The voter in me would prefer to hear discussion about policy questions as opposed to questions of character [assassination]. The Mefi in me realizes this post should probably just be deleted so we can move on to grounds less trod.
<tongue position="in-cheek">
Me? I hope this gets play and turns into soulhuntre's fantasy for the sheer entertainment value.
</togue>
posted by Fezboy! at 10:20 AM on August 24, 2004
the left continues to whip it all into a frenzy, pinning more and more rhetoric ont he "Kerry served you didn't" thing
Then someone says Bill Clinton was President.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:27 AM on August 24, 2004
Then someone says Bill Clinton was President.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:27 AM on August 24, 2004
You heard it here first.
No, I heard it here first (Tom Tomorrow). Only that time, it was meant as a ludicrous joke.
I'm hoping that's your intent as well.
posted by soyjoy at 10:28 AM on August 24, 2004
No, I heard it here first (Tom Tomorrow). Only that time, it was meant as a ludicrous joke.
I'm hoping that's your intent as well.
posted by soyjoy at 10:28 AM on August 24, 2004
wait wait wait wait wait. screw all that medal crap just for a minute here. look carefully at that first bit of evidence on the linked page. you mean to tell me that w's degree from yale was in history? history????? then why the hell is he spending so much time not paying any goddamn attention to history? christ.
ok. that's all i got. go back to bickering about whether or not the guy earned one of the ribbons he was wearing in the photo.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:44 AM on August 24, 2004
ok. that's all i got. go back to bickering about whether or not the guy earned one of the ribbons he was wearing in the photo.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:44 AM on August 24, 2004
Soulhuntre:
You've got the kind of imagination that the Bush campaign is looking for.
posted by mygoditsbob at 10:50 AM on August 24, 2004
You've got the kind of imagination that the Bush campaign is looking for.
posted by mygoditsbob at 10:50 AM on August 24, 2004
You're not even close, Soulhuntre.
Dubya's REAL secret mission was test-flying a reverse-engineered alien aircraft made with metal rubber and see-through aluminum, which he used to airlift a basketful of drowning puppies from a location which cannot be disclosed due to its sensitive nature.
Hey, it's possible! He has the medal to prove it!
posted by briank at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2004
Dubya's REAL secret mission was test-flying a reverse-engineered alien aircraft made with metal rubber and see-through aluminum, which he used to airlift a basketful of drowning puppies from a location which cannot be disclosed due to its sensitive nature.
Hey, it's possible! He has the medal to prove it!
posted by briank at 11:21 AM on August 24, 2004
"I'm hoping that's your intent as well."
If you mean do I think GWB was a Spec Ops guy with Eambo like skill? Of course not.
If you mean do I think there is something going to come sandbagging out of left field ont his issue to slap Kerry in the face? Actually, I kind of do. What it will be I have no idea.
Do I think the focus on this stuff is a bit extreme? Yeah. However how the campaigns are dealing with it turns out to be revealing. It is also revealing much about the supporters and the lengths they will go to.
No one can really stand up to the scrutiny candidates deal with these days. Bush's medal thing, Kerry's having a purple heart for what might be a self inflicted wound... it's all just nit picking in and of itself - but the reactions and spin are telling.
I dsliek and distrust Bush, and I distrust Kerry and think he is too weak to lead. So my choice comes down to:
1) Hope Bush wins and prey that the congress, senate and public can keep him from damaging our rights too badly... something we can do theough the legal system.
2) Hope Kerry wins (he's no real threat domestically) and hope that no one outside the US realises how weak he is and how beholden to A.N.S.W.E.R. and MoveOn he will be. If they do, they are goign to drop a whole lot of hurt on us.
The thing is, the system allows us to put checks and balances on Bush. The systems give us no tools to fight Kerrys inherant weakness.
The choice truly sucks.
posted by soulhuntre at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2004
If you mean do I think GWB was a Spec Ops guy with Eambo like skill? Of course not.
If you mean do I think there is something going to come sandbagging out of left field ont his issue to slap Kerry in the face? Actually, I kind of do. What it will be I have no idea.
Do I think the focus on this stuff is a bit extreme? Yeah. However how the campaigns are dealing with it turns out to be revealing. It is also revealing much about the supporters and the lengths they will go to.
No one can really stand up to the scrutiny candidates deal with these days. Bush's medal thing, Kerry's having a purple heart for what might be a self inflicted wound... it's all just nit picking in and of itself - but the reactions and spin are telling.
I dsliek and distrust Bush, and I distrust Kerry and think he is too weak to lead. So my choice comes down to:
1) Hope Bush wins and prey that the congress, senate and public can keep him from damaging our rights too badly... something we can do theough the legal system.
2) Hope Kerry wins (he's no real threat domestically) and hope that no one outside the US realises how weak he is and how beholden to A.N.S.W.E.R. and MoveOn he will be. If they do, they are goign to drop a whole lot of hurt on us.
The thing is, the system allows us to put checks and balances on Bush. The systems give us no tools to fight Kerrys inherant weakness.
The choice truly sucks.
posted by soulhuntre at 11:48 AM on August 24, 2004
"Hey, it's possible! He has the medal to prove it!"
He might be wearing it. The "Stargate" award is invisible. :)
posted by soulhuntre at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2004
He might be wearing it. The "Stargate" award is invisible. :)
posted by soulhuntre at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2004
Soulhuntre:
You've got the kind of imagination that the Bush campaign is looking for.
"I couldn't believe it," he said. "It was the guy from the bar. And since then, I've often wondered: What on earth was George W. Bush doing in Vietnam?"
posted by thomcatspike at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2004
You've got the kind of imagination that the Bush campaign is looking for.
"I couldn't believe it," he said. "It was the guy from the bar. And since then, I've often wondered: What on earth was George W. Bush doing in Vietnam?"
posted by thomcatspike at 12:00 PM on August 24, 2004
Hope Kerry wins (he's no real threat domestically) and hope that no one outside the US realises how weak he is and how beholden to A.N.S.W.E.R. and MoveOn he will be.
You're doing it again, right?
posted by soyjoy at 12:27 PM on August 24, 2004
You're doing it again, right?
posted by soyjoy at 12:27 PM on August 24, 2004
John Kerry's on The Daily show tonight.. should be interesting.
But, to this DU forum.. those people are nuts. I have to echo agreement with jpoulus and others that have already said that we shouldn't be looking at if Bush wore a metal he wasn't awarded, but instead focus on what he's done to our schools, firefighters, police, civil liberties, economy, foreign relations, and other infrastructures.
As for Kerry being 'weak'.. well, now.. I don't know why people say that, or what they base their opinion on. He's not a crazy mofo that'll nuke your ass like Bush.. but who said having a mind and using it to think critically was weak?
posted by rich at 12:30 PM on August 24, 2004
But, to this DU forum.. those people are nuts. I have to echo agreement with jpoulus and others that have already said that we shouldn't be looking at if Bush wore a metal he wasn't awarded, but instead focus on what he's done to our schools, firefighters, police, civil liberties, economy, foreign relations, and other infrastructures.
As for Kerry being 'weak'.. well, now.. I don't know why people say that, or what they base their opinion on. He's not a crazy mofo that'll nuke your ass like Bush.. but who said having a mind and using it to think critically was weak?
posted by rich at 12:30 PM on August 24, 2004
"You're doing it again, right?"
No, I'm not. That one is dead serious.
Look, if Kerry gets in he will realize that there is a very large, rabid and nonsensical anti-corporate and anti-military power base that put him in - and it is not going to go away once he is there. Large, violent, European style "protest" complete with "solidarity" and "worker" rhetoric is here to stay
Combined with his natural reluctance to take a strong position and his innate lack of a projection of strength and anyoen outside the US will realize the simple truth...
With Kerry in office you can hit us and we won't hit back.
I honestly don't think the guy has the spine needed to pull the trigger - even if he was Rambo 20+ years ago he isn't anything like it now. He also doesn't have the balls to go against the UN.
This does not mean I agree with how the war on terrorism is being conducted - but I do believe we ARE in such a war. I don't think Kerry does - and I don't believe he will take strong action int he face of the howling ANSWER led protests for "peace" that he will face any time he contemplates doing something.
Further, they won't even let him relax. Even if Kerry gets in it won't end. They will start demonstrating almost daily for an Iraq pull out (they know he is easily swayed)... and if he balsk the old "both parties are the same" fallback will come out and they will agitate against on that basis.
I don;t think Kerry has the fortitude to make his own decisions. I think Bush does but I don't agree with many of the ones he makes.
Like I said, the choice sucks. Where oh where is Admiral Stockdale when you need him?
posted by soulhuntre at 12:53 PM on August 24, 2004
No, I'm not. That one is dead serious.
Look, if Kerry gets in he will realize that there is a very large, rabid and nonsensical anti-corporate and anti-military power base that put him in - and it is not going to go away once he is there. Large, violent, European style "protest" complete with "solidarity" and "worker" rhetoric is here to stay
Combined with his natural reluctance to take a strong position and his innate lack of a projection of strength and anyoen outside the US will realize the simple truth...
With Kerry in office you can hit us and we won't hit back.
I honestly don't think the guy has the spine needed to pull the trigger - even if he was Rambo 20+ years ago he isn't anything like it now. He also doesn't have the balls to go against the UN.
This does not mean I agree with how the war on terrorism is being conducted - but I do believe we ARE in such a war. I don't think Kerry does - and I don't believe he will take strong action int he face of the howling ANSWER led protests for "peace" that he will face any time he contemplates doing something.
Further, they won't even let him relax. Even if Kerry gets in it won't end. They will start demonstrating almost daily for an Iraq pull out (they know he is easily swayed)... and if he balsk the old "both parties are the same" fallback will come out and they will agitate against on that basis.
I don;t think Kerry has the fortitude to make his own decisions. I think Bush does but I don't agree with many of the ones he makes.
Like I said, the choice sucks. Where oh where is Admiral Stockdale when you need him?
posted by soulhuntre at 12:53 PM on August 24, 2004
Wake me up when one of the candidates decides to discuss matters of importance to this century....
posted by spilon at 1:09 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by spilon at 1:09 PM on August 24, 2004
I would debate that a 'large, rabid, nonsensical anti-corporate, anti-military power base' exists.
Oh, sure, there is a fringe group that looks like that, but I'd say the power base rests in the anti-war group that is not anti-coporate or anti-military, or non-sensical. Rabid, maybe, not not violently so.
posted by rich at 1:14 PM on August 24, 2004
Oh, sure, there is a fringe group that looks like that, but I'd say the power base rests in the anti-war group that is not anti-coporate or anti-military, or non-sensical. Rabid, maybe, not not violently so.
posted by rich at 1:14 PM on August 24, 2004
As much as I would love it if he did, the notion that Kerry, as president, would make any decision based on the demands of the A.N.S.W.E.R. "power base" is hilarious. I don't think Tom Tomorrow's covered that one yet!
Where oh where is Admiral Stockdale when you need him?
OK, now this time I'm sure you're doing it.
posted by soyjoy at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2004
Where oh where is Admiral Stockdale when you need him?
OK, now this time I'm sure you're doing it.
posted by soyjoy at 1:28 PM on August 24, 2004
In the National Guard or in the US military in general, aren't there codes, laws, or regulations which prohibit the display of unearned medals on one's uniform ?
I'd think so, but perhaps not.
posted by troutfishing at 1:34 PM on August 24, 2004
I'd think so, but perhaps not.
posted by troutfishing at 1:34 PM on August 24, 2004
With Kerry in office you can hit us and we won't hit back
With Kerry in office, you can hit us and we'll hit you back, not some other guy we wanted to hit anyway while you laugh your ass off and your movement gains ground in a place that used to be closed to them. But that's not as short and pithy, is it?
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:38 PM on August 24, 2004
With Kerry in office, you can hit us and we'll hit you back, not some other guy we wanted to hit anyway while you laugh your ass off and your movement gains ground in a place that used to be closed to them. But that's not as short and pithy, is it?
posted by George_Spiggott at 1:38 PM on August 24, 2004
beholden to ANSWER and MoveOn...
Thanks, that's the best laugh I've had all day.
posted by McBain at 3:05 PM on August 24, 2004
Thanks, that's the best laugh I've had all day.
posted by McBain at 3:05 PM on August 24, 2004
I honestly don't think the guy has the spine needed to pull the trigger - even if he was Rambo 20+ years ago he isn't anything like it now. He also doesn't have the balls to go against the UN.
Does he have the skills to persuade the UN?
Our current administration said the UN was intractable. I understand that it's definitely political, but I don't think it's the same thing. A Kerry administration might be less willing to go against the UN, but more able to persuade the UN to go along with it.
posted by weston at 3:50 PM on August 24, 2004
Does he have the skills to persuade the UN?
Our current administration said the UN was intractable. I understand that it's definitely political, but I don't think it's the same thing. A Kerry administration might be less willing to go against the UN, but more able to persuade the UN to go along with it.
posted by weston at 3:50 PM on August 24, 2004
Kerry's having a purple heart for what might be a self inflicted wound...
Oh for fuck's sake.
From Atrios
Oh for fuck's sake.
From Atrios
Shrapnelposted by Space Coyote at 4:01 PM on August 24, 2004
What can you say about someone like Michelle "Little LuLu" Malkin suggesting that the shrapnel in Kerry's leg might come from a self-inflicted wound. While it is true that some Swift Boat Liars have suggested that the shrapnel could have come from Kerry's own weapon, it's a bit bizarre that Malkin would suggest that it was deliberately inflicted. The shrapnel is from a grenade. While it is true that people have wounded themselves in an attempt to get out of combat, it's hard to comprehend that very many of them have chosen to wound themselves with grenades.
The loathing these people have for everything America stands for is astounding.
Note that I didn't bring the subject of shrapnel. (Got that, Keith Olbermann?) Willie Brown raised the issue.
Here is how I responded verbatim:
"Well yeah. Why don't people ask him more specific questions about the shrapnel in his leg? There are legitimate questions about whether or not it was a self-inflicted wound."
Matthews frantically stuffed words down my mouth when I raised these allegations made in Unfit for Command that Kerry's wounds might have been self-inflicted. In his ill-informed and ideologically warped mind, this transmogrified into me accusing Kerry of "shooting himself on purpose" to get an award.
I repeated that the allegations involved whether the injuries were "self inflicted wounds." I DID NOT SAY HE SHOT HIMSELF ON PURPOSE and Chris Matthews knows it. - Michelle Malkin
posted by techgnollogic at 4:36 PM on August 24, 2004
Here is how I responded verbatim:
"Well yeah. Why don't people ask him more specific questions about the shrapnel in his leg? There are legitimate questions about whether or not it was a self-inflicted wound."
Matthews frantically stuffed words down my mouth when I raised these allegations made in Unfit for Command that Kerry's wounds might have been self-inflicted. In his ill-informed and ideologically warped mind, this transmogrified into me accusing Kerry of "shooting himself on purpose" to get an award.
I repeated that the allegations involved whether the injuries were "self inflicted wounds." I DID NOT SAY HE SHOT HIMSELF ON PURPOSE and Chris Matthews knows it. - Michelle Malkin
posted by techgnollogic at 4:36 PM on August 24, 2004
I JUST SUGGESTED HE MIGHT HAVE DROPPED A LIVE GRENADE DOWN HIS PANTS
posted by mr.marx at 4:45 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by mr.marx at 4:45 PM on August 24, 2004
Does not matter how you are injured during battle it's still a purple heart. Even if shot by your own side. If you want to really split hairs you may look at who put the requests in for the Purple Heart situations, not whom awarded them. Remembering when you receive a third one, you’re sent home.
Like most said above, lets talk about the current issues.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:49 PM on August 24, 2004
Like most said above, lets talk about the current issues.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:49 PM on August 24, 2004
thanks, techgno, that was hilarious. Fuck that woman is unhinged...
posted by Space Coyote at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 4:57 PM on August 24, 2004
She learned it by watching Chris Matthews, apparently. That dude is losin' it.
posted by techgnollogic at 4:59 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by techgnollogic at 4:59 PM on August 24, 2004
Whoah, "i know you are but what am I?" by proxy.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:12 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 5:12 PM on August 24, 2004
Matthews "losin' it"??? Hardly ...
He recognized the attempted slur-by-inuendo and wouldn't let her wiggle out of it. I was on my feet cheering.
If she truly meant that Kerry's wound was from misfiring the grenade launcher, she could have just as easily called it "accidental". By using a loaded term like "self-inflicted" she was obviously encouraging people to draw the wrong conclusion (although I'm willing to entertain the alternate explanation -- she's simply an imbecile).
Grimalkin was arrogant, caught off guard and too stupid to employ the usual rhetorical tricks to extricate herself. It was refreshing (and thoroughly gratifying) to see a TV journalist nail jello to a tree for once.
Equally amusing was Malkin's anemic attempt to turn the tables by thumping her chest in mock indignation, wailing: "Have you tried to ask -- have you tried ask John Kerry these questions? ... Don't you wonder?" A bit of half-wit sophistry that does double duty: It pretends that the credibility of the charge is so obious that it doesn't need actual evidence and it chides the "liberal" media for not pursuing the matter.
posted by RavinDave at 7:01 PM on August 24, 2004
He recognized the attempted slur-by-inuendo and wouldn't let her wiggle out of it. I was on my feet cheering.
If she truly meant that Kerry's wound was from misfiring the grenade launcher, she could have just as easily called it "accidental". By using a loaded term like "self-inflicted" she was obviously encouraging people to draw the wrong conclusion (although I'm willing to entertain the alternate explanation -- she's simply an imbecile).
Grimalkin was arrogant, caught off guard and too stupid to employ the usual rhetorical tricks to extricate herself. It was refreshing (and thoroughly gratifying) to see a TV journalist nail jello to a tree for once.
Equally amusing was Malkin's anemic attempt to turn the tables by thumping her chest in mock indignation, wailing: "Have you tried to ask -- have you tried ask John Kerry these questions? ... Don't you wonder?" A bit of half-wit sophistry that does double duty: It pretends that the credibility of the charge is so obious that it doesn't need actual evidence and it chides the "liberal" media for not pursuing the matter.
posted by RavinDave at 7:01 PM on August 24, 2004
"Today Bob Dole suggested that one or more of John Kerry's Purple Hearts may have been fraudulent in some way because they were for "superficial wounds."
Dole knows better.
In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here's how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."
Dole's own words - "A sliver of metal" : superficial, and technically self-inflicted. I still think he deserves that metal, but Dole's condemnation of Kerry is ugly.
And Michelle Malkin's attack ?
Fill in the blank : ______
posted by troutfishing at 9:11 PM on August 24, 2004
Dole knows better.
In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here's how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."
Dole's own words - "A sliver of metal" : superficial, and technically self-inflicted. I still think he deserves that metal, but Dole's condemnation of Kerry is ugly.
And Michelle Malkin's attack ?
Fill in the blank : ______
posted by troutfishing at 9:11 PM on August 24, 2004
brilliant, mr.marx - heartiest laugh I've had in a while! It even tops soulhuntre's "beholden to A.N.S.W.E.R." gag, and that's sayin' something.
posted by soyjoy at 9:45 PM on August 24, 2004
posted by soyjoy at 9:45 PM on August 24, 2004
"A Kerry administration might be less willing to go against the UN, but more able to persuade the UN to go along with it."
Given the attitudes and actions of the UN, and the general rampant US bashing that happens (you need look no further than MeFi to see it) and started long before GWB took office) I don't really see a prayer in hell of the UN being a useful and relevant partner any time soon.
Kerry will go hat in hand and say "May I?" and it will stroke their egos, but they'll cut him off at the knees as soon as look at him.
"Oh, sure, there is a fringe group that looks like that, but I'd say the power base rests in the anti-war group that is not anti-coporate or anti-military, or non-sensical. Rabid, maybe, not not violently so."
The thing is that it isn't clear Kerry and his handlers know the difference. They see large crowds being vocal and they just sort of have an orgasm and spout off whatever might make that crowd happy on that day.
Not a good thing to do whith the tough decisions we will have to be making.
BTW - I really did like Stockdale. He may have been crazy as a hound but anyone who will simply turn off their hearing aid so they don't have to listen to some moron babble at them would be awesome to have in office.
posted by soulhuntre at 12:54 AM on August 25, 2004
Given the attitudes and actions of the UN, and the general rampant US bashing that happens (you need look no further than MeFi to see it) and started long before GWB took office) I don't really see a prayer in hell of the UN being a useful and relevant partner any time soon.
Kerry will go hat in hand and say "May I?" and it will stroke their egos, but they'll cut him off at the knees as soon as look at him.
"Oh, sure, there is a fringe group that looks like that, but I'd say the power base rests in the anti-war group that is not anti-coporate or anti-military, or non-sensical. Rabid, maybe, not not violently so."
The thing is that it isn't clear Kerry and his handlers know the difference. They see large crowds being vocal and they just sort of have an orgasm and spout off whatever might make that crowd happy on that day.
Not a good thing to do whith the tough decisions we will have to be making.
BTW - I really did like Stockdale. He may have been crazy as a hound but anyone who will simply turn off their hearing aid so they don't have to listen to some moron babble at them would be awesome to have in office.
posted by soulhuntre at 12:54 AM on August 25, 2004
"....Not a good thing to do with the tough decisions we will have to be making." - Errr.....like invading Iran and Syria ?
This "tough" means "dumb" in my lexicon.
The previous railing against the UN reads, to me, like a type of borderline psychopathology : "Everybody else is wrong! The whole damn World!"
But - anyway - getting back to George W. Bush's fake medals......
posted by troutfishing at 1:03 AM on August 25, 2004
This "tough" means "dumb" in my lexicon.
The previous railing against the UN reads, to me, like a type of borderline psychopathology : "Everybody else is wrong! The whole damn World!"
But - anyway - getting back to George W. Bush's fake medals......
posted by troutfishing at 1:03 AM on August 25, 2004
didnt mean to post a link to a unauthorized source.
feel free to point me in the direction of the list of all acceptable sites.
posted by tsarfan at 1:40 AM on August 25, 2004
feel free to point me in the direction of the list of all acceptable sites.
posted by tsarfan at 1:40 AM on August 25, 2004
soul--
I think there is a difference between the intelligent, well-managed force that Kerry represents and the swaggering idiocy that, whether it exists in the Bush administration or not, you have to admit is perceived to exist. Make no mistake -- Kerry's strategy has been to let the Bush administration hang itself. See this:
http://kenlayne.com/2004/08/god-of-war-death-madness.html
Regarding the 527's -- Kerry was very much the left wing's fourth choice, behind Edwards, Dean, and Clark. They've not put him in power by anyone's perception. Indeed, that he rose to the forefront is itself relatively shocking, and is the source of some miffery (is that a word?). But it's pretty clear that somebody sat down and said, alright, if we're going to knock Bush out, we're going to replace him with someone we know and someone we trust. Kerry's quite a social liberal, definitely, but he's unabashedly corporate and military friendly (don't think the work on POW's wasn't in some way an olive branch to the services he criticized). Outside the US, there will of course be happiness if Bush is voted out -- have you noticed that pretty much every democracy in the world has handed major electoral defeats to Bush, from Britain to Spain to Venezuala almost to Canada? But a perception of weakness? Is someone going to think that a war hero isn't going to rush to the defense of his fellow Americans? He just won't do it with utter joy and wild, incompetent abandon. That's a much more dangerous foe.
There will be impacts of the type you speak of, I think. There is a definite sense, I believe, that a Kerry administration will share the wealth of Iraq with Europe and Russia, far more than "BushCo" would.
I do admit to wondering at times if the last four years have been the rule of Beast Rabban...whatever Kerry does after this will necessarily seem an improvement.
posted by effugas at 7:23 AM on August 25, 2004
I think there is a difference between the intelligent, well-managed force that Kerry represents and the swaggering idiocy that, whether it exists in the Bush administration or not, you have to admit is perceived to exist. Make no mistake -- Kerry's strategy has been to let the Bush administration hang itself. See this:
http://kenlayne.com/2004/08/god-of-war-death-madness.html
Regarding the 527's -- Kerry was very much the left wing's fourth choice, behind Edwards, Dean, and Clark. They've not put him in power by anyone's perception. Indeed, that he rose to the forefront is itself relatively shocking, and is the source of some miffery (is that a word?). But it's pretty clear that somebody sat down and said, alright, if we're going to knock Bush out, we're going to replace him with someone we know and someone we trust. Kerry's quite a social liberal, definitely, but he's unabashedly corporate and military friendly (don't think the work on POW's wasn't in some way an olive branch to the services he criticized). Outside the US, there will of course be happiness if Bush is voted out -- have you noticed that pretty much every democracy in the world has handed major electoral defeats to Bush, from Britain to Spain to Venezuala almost to Canada? But a perception of weakness? Is someone going to think that a war hero isn't going to rush to the defense of his fellow Americans? He just won't do it with utter joy and wild, incompetent abandon. That's a much more dangerous foe.
There will be impacts of the type you speak of, I think. There is a definite sense, I believe, that a Kerry administration will share the wealth of Iraq with Europe and Russia, far more than "BushCo" would.
I do admit to wondering at times if the last four years have been the rule of Beast Rabban...whatever Kerry does after this will necessarily seem an improvement.
posted by effugas at 7:23 AM on August 25, 2004
getting back to George W. Bush's fake medals......
Who the fuck cares about his medals? Who the fuck cares about what Kerry may or may not have done some Christmas night? We've already all heard enough on all sides to paint everyone involved in this election as a worthless scumbag, and I will enumerate.
posted by darukaru at 8:01 AM on August 25, 2004
Who the fuck cares about his medals? Who the fuck cares about what Kerry may or may not have done some Christmas night? We've already all heard enough on all sides to paint everyone involved in this election as a worthless scumbag, and I will enumerate.
- GWB is a wealthy, self-aggrandizing exaggerator and an ex-cocaine addict, in love with the myth of himself, supported by a slimy organization.
- john Kerry is a wealthy, self-aggrandizing exaggerator, in love with the myth of himself, supported by a slimy organization.
- Dick Cheney is a soulless lizard from the 9th dimension.
- John Edwards is a tort lawyer.
- Ralph Nader is a worthless opportunist whore who will suck anyone's cock for 1% at the polls.
- Michael Badnarik is clinically insane.
posted by darukaru at 8:01 AM on August 25, 2004
Getting "back" to the issues is all fine and dandy, had the call been made a week or so ago. But the ads have been effective enough (don't believe me? Read some letters to the editors in random online small town newspapers) that a little tit-for-tat seems entirely appropriate. If the Vet organizations of this country are going to embarass themselves by backing someone who has a record of screwing over soldier benefits, someone who routinely villifies genuine war heros, someone who lashed out at military leaders who didn't provide the "evidence" he wanted, someone who used priviledge to avoid the service -- if the Vets want this assclown as their leader, they deserve to know the whole package: that he's a gutless imposter as well. I'll be anxious to see how far they are willing to sell out their ideals and integrity just to satiate a perceived 30-year old grudge.
posted by RavinDave at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2004
posted by RavinDave at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2004
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posted by solistrato at 10:55 PM on August 23, 2004