Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks

August 31, 2004 2:27 AM

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5. This is probably bad news for Rudy Giuliani.
posted by jackspace (112 comments total)

{zips lips}
posted by Witty at 2:44 AM on August 31, 2004

And how many believe the bible is the literal truth?
posted by Postroad at 3:02 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy for prez!
posted by riffola at 3:44 AM on August 31, 2004

Another Prophet of Disaster
Who says the ship is lost,
Another Prophet of Disaster
Leaving you to count the cost.
Taunting us with Visions,
Afflicting us with fear,
Predicting War for millions,
In the hope that one appears.No point asking when it is,
No point asking who's to go,
No point asking what's the game,
No point asking who's to blame.
'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die,
'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die,If you're gonna die, die with your boots on.
If you're gonna try, just stick around,
Gonna cry, just move along,
If you're gonna die, you're gonna die.
In 13 the Beast is rising,
The Frenchman did surmise,
Through earthquakes and starvation,
The warlord will arise.
Terror, Death, Destruction,
Pour from the Eastern Sands,
But the truth of all predictions,
Is always in your hands.If you're gonna die, die with your boots on,
If you're gonna try, just stick around,
Gonna cry, just move along,
If you're gonna die, you're gonna die.
posted by black8 at 4:13 AM on August 31, 2004

Woah, what is that last link? One small statement on a PBS documentary about pulling the fire fighters from WTC 7 and they're claiming that it's proof that 911 was "an inside job." Allegedly, according to that link, there were explosives inside the building placed by...?
posted by crazy finger at 4:31 AM on August 31, 2004

An intelligent comment from Postroad. There's a first time for everything, I guess...
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2004

and how many believe the bible is the literal truth?/i>

An intelligent comment from Postroad. There's a first time for everything, I guess...
posted by tomcosgrave at 5:06 AM on August 31, 2004

But it was a _historical_ document!!!

/d'uh.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:41 AM on August 31, 2004

crazy finger, even weirder is that the Zogby poll covered that claim specifically:

"SCOPE: The poll covered five areas of related interest...
3) the inexplicable and largely unreported collapse of the third WTC skyscraper on 9/11 - what was its number (28% of NYC area residents knew)"
posted by Onanist at 5:41 AM on August 31, 2004

9-11 stinks like a big 'ol rotting fish that's been varnished and dropped down the chimney, to lodge in the flu and from there stink up the whole house.

New Yorkers are apparently more knowledgeable about the swarms of bizarre "anomalies" surrounding 9-11 than average Metafilter members. That's not surprising, as many of them watched firsthand as the towers came down.

Just off the top of my head - number of Pentagon officials cancelled travel plans one day prior to 9-11, while various other "don't fly" warnings a day prior were issued - seemingly quite at random - to various government officials. Instant messages from an Israeli instant messaging service sent hours prior and warning of the impending attack have been confirmed. Israeli spies seem to have been tailing the 9-11 hijackers quite closely : "It is reported that many spies in the uncovered Israeli spy ring seemed to have been trailing the 9/11 hijackers. For instance, five Israeli spies are intercepted in the tiny town of Hollywood, Florida, and four 9/11 hijackers are known to have spent time in Hollywood, Florida. [Le Monde, 3/5/02, Reuters, 3/5/02, Jane's Intelligence Digest, 3/15/02] In one case, some Israeli spies lived at 4220 Sheridan Street, only a few hundred feet from where Atta was living at 3389 Sheridan Street. Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least 10 of the 19 9/11 hijackers. [Salon 5/7/02]"

A group of Israelis, observed filming the tower's collapse and cheering, were working for a fly by night Israeli owned moving company that closed down immediately after 9-11 as it's members all hopped flights out of the US. The rather extensive Israeli "Art Student" espionage operation - widely noted at the time - cleared out after 9-11 as well. In the months after the attack, two Israeli men were found driving a truck which contained traces of bomb-making materials (later, the finding of those traces was declared to be an error and the men were allowed to leave the US). In a possibly related incident, "Police in the Midwest stop six men carrying suspicious documents. They possess photos and descriptions of a nuclear power plant in Florida and the Trans-Alaska pipeline, and also have “box cutters and other equipment.” All six have Israeli passports. They are let released the same day after their passports are shown to be valid, but before anyone interviews them. The FBI is reportedly furious about their release. [Miami Herald, 10/3/01, Knight Ridder, 10/31/01, London Times, 11/2/01] "

There's more - for links to mainstream news reports on the Israeli-9-11 connection, see here

This is not to directly implicate Israel in the 9-11 attacks. Israeli intelligence was, it is likely, far more aware of the impending attacks than the US' FBI or CIA, and Israel - it is worth noting - issued general warnings to the US, shortly prior to 9-11, about impending terrorist strikes. These were ignored by the Bush Administration. But Israeli politics are quite fractious, and the 9-11 attacks did mesh quite neatly with the agenda of Sharon's and other related Israeli politcal factions that are closely tied to the US Neoconservative tendency now dominating US foreign policy.

The 9-11 attacks have certainly worked strongly to Israel's benefit (from a certain perspective anyway), as the US now serves as Israel's Gurkha Regiment in Iraq.

For those who need to brush up on the acnowledged facts, here's Paul Thompson's massive, superbly and scrupulously reseached Complete 9-11 Timeline

"A Washington Post article completely denies the existence of any Israeli spy ring. A “wide array of US officials” supposedly deny it, and Justice Department spokeswoman Susan Dryden says: “This seems to be an urban myth that has been circulating for months. The department has no information at this time to substantiate these widespread reports about Israeli art students involved in espionage.” [Washington Post, 3/6/02] The New York Times fails to cover the story at all, even months later. [Salon 5/7/02] By mid-March, Jane's, the respected British intelligence and military analysis service, notes: “It is rather strange that the US media seems to be ignoring what may well be the most explosive story since the 11 September attacks—the alleged breakup of a major Israeli espionage operation in the USA.” [Jane's Intelligence Digest 3/13/02]" (from the first of the above two related links)

Nothing at all to see here folks. Just put your media-foil hats back on and go back to sleep.
posted by troutfishing at 5:44 AM on August 31, 2004

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
posted by troutfishing at 5:48 AM on August 31, 2004

Didn't I see something about this on FOX News troutfishing?
No? :-)
Note to self: the time honored and proven practice of following the money to find out the who and why of a crime has been studiously avoided in this investigation. Why?
posted by nofundy at 5:56 AM on August 31, 2004

Unfortunately it is stupid statements like this that result in the left being dismissed as "wingnuts" by many. I believe Bush is incompetent as a leader and can produce evidence for this in his day to day actions as President, but I don't believe he is the antichrist and I don't believe that he would stand by and allow a few thousand innocents to burn to a crisp just to allow his comrades and corporate masters to exercise Operation: BOMBDARKIES.
I think a calm discussion of his failures would do more good than this jibber-jabber. Unfortunately I believe Kerry has dropped the ball as of now and that Bush is in line to win the race. I really don't think the Democrats are taking it all seriously and I believe the results in November will shock people quite significantly. I'm also hoping that I am wrong
posted by longbaugh at 5:57 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy for prez!

Loathsome sack of shit. (Giuliani, I mean, not you, riffy.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:14 AM on August 31, 2004

Black8, you are tops !!
posted by a3matrix at 6:18 AM on August 31, 2004

Suddenly, the otherwise very vocal MeFi rightwingers are silent. My respect to you trout
posted by acrobat at 6:26 AM on August 31, 2004

longbaugh - a heroic diversionary tactic to avoid discussing the mountain of evidence I just cited (above) !

Go put your horse-blinders back on, to pull your shabby cart of moldy apples through the streets of amnesia and denial. One day, you'll be off to the glue factory. But, that's mortality.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............

nofundy - No one even tried to follow the money trail, but somebody sure made a pile of dough in the hours preceeding the 9-11 attacks.

"....Inside trading based on advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks may have begun on this date, if not earlier. Investigators later discover a large number of put option purchases (a speculation that the stock will go down) at the Chicago Board Options Exchange bought on this date that expire on September 30 (see also September 6-10, 2001). These would have led to large profits. One analyst says, “From what I'm hearing, it's more than coincidence.” [Reuters 9/20/01] .....       German central bank president Ernst Welteke says a study by his bank indicates, “There are ever clearer signs that there were activities on international financial markets that must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge,” not only in shares of heavily affected industries such as airlines and insurance companies, but also in gold and oil. [Telegraph, 9/23/01 (C)] His researchers have found “almost irrefutable proof of insider trading.” [Miami Herald, 9/24/01] “If you look at movements in markets before and after the attack, it makes your brow furrow. But it is extremely difficult to really verify it.” Nevertheless, he believes that “in one or the other case it will be possible to pinpoint the source.” [Fox News, 9/22/01] Welteke reports “a fundamentally inexplicable rise” rise in oil prices before the attacks [Miami Herald, 9/24/01] and then a further rise of 13% the day after the attacks. Gold rises nonstop for days after the attacks. [Telegraph 9/23/01 (C)].....[ Early September 2001 ] There is a sharp increase in short selling of the stocks of American and United airlines on the New York Stock Exchange prior to 9/11. A short sell is a bet that a particular stock will drop. There is an increase of 40 percent of short selling over the previous month for these two airlines, compared to an 11 percent increase for other big airlines and one percent for the exchange overall. A significant profit was to be made: United stock dropped 43 percent and American dropped 39 percent the first day the market reopened after the attack (see also September 6-10, 2001). Short selling of Munich Re, the world's largest reinsurer, is also later noted by German investigators. Inquiries into short selling millions of Munich Re shares were made in France days before the attacks. [Reuters, 9/20/01, San Francisco Chronicle, 9/22/01] Munich Re stock plummets after the attacks, as they claim the attacks will cost them $2 billion. [Dow Jones Business News, 9/20/01] There is also suspicious trading activity involving reinsurers Swiss Reinsurance and AXA. These trades are especially curious because the insurance sector “was one of the brightest spots in a very difficult market” at this time. [Los Angeles Times, 9/19/01] There is also a short spike on Dutch airline KLM stock three to seven days before 9/11, reaching historically unprecedented levels. [USA Today, 9/26/01].....After 9/11 both the SEC and the Secret Service announce probes into an unusually high volume trade of five-year US Treasury note purchases around this time. These transactions included a single $5 billion trade. The Wall Street Journal explains: “Five-year Treasury notes are among the best investments in the event of a world crisis, especially one that hits the US. The notes are prized for their safety and their backing by the US government, and usually rally when investors flee riskier investments, such as stocks.”The value of these notes has risen sharply since the events of September 11. The article also points out that with these notes, “tracks would be hard to spot.” [Wall Street Journal, 10/2/01]........The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) later announces that they are investigating the trading of shares of 38 companies in the days just before 9/11. The San Francisco Chronicle states that the New York Stock Exchange sees “unusually heavy trading in airline and related stocks several days before the attacks.” All of the 38 companies logically stood to lose from the attacks. They include parent companies of major airlines American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, Southwest, United and USAirways as well as cruise lines Carnival and Royal Caribbean, aircraft maker Boeing and defense contractor Lockheed Martin. The SEC is also looking into suspicious short selling of numerous insurance company stocks. [AP 10/2/01; San Francisco Chronicle 10/3/01].....Suspicious trading occurs on American and United, the two airlines used in the 9/11 attacks. “Between 6 and 7 September, The Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put option contracts [a speculation that the stock will go down] in UAL versus 396 call options—where a speculator bets on a price rising. Holders of the put options would have netted a profit of $5 million once the carrier's share price dived after September 11. On 10 September, more trading in Chicago saw the purchase of 4,516 put options in American Airlines, the other airline involved in the hijackings. This compares with a mere 748 call options in American purchased that day. Investigators cannot help but notice that no other airlines saw such trading in their put options.” One analyst says: “I saw put-call numbers higher than I've ever seen in 10 years of following the markets, particularly the options markets.” [Associated Press, 9/18/01, San Francisco Chronicle, 9/19/01] “To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the ‘put’ options … on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by ‘Buzzy’ Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.” Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc., which was bought by Deutsche Bank. “His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust—Alex Brown's private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world.” [Independent, 10/14/01] FTW.... [ September 6-10, 2001 ] The Chicago Board Options Exchange sees suspicious trading on Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, two of the largest WTC tenants. An average of 3,053 put options in Merrill Lynch are bought between September 6-10, compared to an average of 252 in the previous week. Merrill Lynch, another WTC tenant, see 12,215 put options bought between September 7-10, when the previous days had seen averages of 252 contracts a day. [Independent, 10/14/01] Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg Business News: “This would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence.” [ABC News, 9/20/01] [FTW].....[ September 10, 2001 ] The trading ratio on United Airlines is 25 times greater than normal at the Pacific Exchange. Pacific Exchange officials later decline to state if this abnormality is being investigated. [San Francisco Chronicle 9/19/01].....[ September 11, 2001 ] Data recovery experts later looking at 32 hard drives salvaged from the 9/11 attacks discover a surge in credit card transactions from the WTC in the hours before and during the attacks. Unusually large sums of money were rushed through computers even as the disaster unfolded. Investigators say, “There is a suspicion that some people had advance knowledge of the approximate time of the plane crashes in order to move out amounts exceeding $100 million. They thought that the records of their transactions could not be traced after the main frames were destroyed.” [Reuters 12/19/01]
          
          
"

Etc.

*tips hat*

acrobat - thanks. Now, I must be off to toil for my daily bread.

*toils, assiduously*
posted by troutfishing at 6:31 AM on August 31, 2004

I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to agree with the statement "US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and Consciously Failed To Act." The "Bin Laden Determined to strike in US" PDB alone could be construed by some as foreknowledge of a coming attack.

I don't think for a second that anyone knew this particular attack was coming, but poll questions can interpreted differently by different people.
posted by jpoulos at 6:42 AM on August 31, 2004

...And Ashcroft cut anti-terrorism funding from his budget. He "consciously failed to act".
posted by jpoulos at 6:46 AM on August 31, 2004

We owe that much and more to the loved ones and heroes that we lost on Sept. 11. The families of some of those we lost on Sept. 11 are here with us. To them, and to all those families affected by Sept. 11, we recognize the sacrifices your loved ones made. We recognize the sacrifices that you’re making. You’re in our prayers and we are in your debt.

Thanks, Rudy, you fucking sack of shit. I'm sure that those who died that day are smiling down from heaven, happy in the knowledge that their deaths could further the GOP agenda. There are no bounds hate in my bones for you at this moment.
posted by mkultra at 6:50 AM on August 31, 2004

Well, not to spoil the conspiracy party, but speaking as a New Yorker, I can tell you that New Yorkers believe all kinds of shit. The guy who used to work as the front desk security guard believes that the CIA devised 9/11 on their own. A co-worker believes AIDS was invented in a government laboratory as a genocidal plot. There were three guys who used to stand outside port authority and claim that white people were invented by an evil black scientist. There's a guy I saw on Downing Street who believes the Warren Commission has put implants in his brain.

I believe that 9/11 possibly could've been prevented, but there reason it wasn't was due to arrogant incompetence on the part of leadership not grand conspiracies. On preview, more or less what jpoulos said.

As far a Rudy goes: good prosecutor, mediocre mayor.
posted by jonmc at 6:58 AM on August 31, 2004

Troutfishing - neat timeline. Definitely would make an awesome Oliver Stone film.
posted by crazy finger at 7:02 AM on August 31, 2004

"awesome Oliver Stone film"

I can't parse that phrase for some reason.
posted by dhoyt at 7:16 AM on August 31, 2004

it's obvious that the poster aims to distract everyone from the awesome events at the RNC last night.

It won't work--at least in the real, non-Mefi world.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:37 AM on August 31, 2004

Well, not to spoil the conspiracy party, but speaking as a New Yorker, I can tell you that New Yorkers believe all kinds of shit.

Wow, make an assertion and proof just pops right up, thanks Paris.
posted by jonmc at 7:39 AM on August 31, 2004

the awesome events at the RNC last night

AWESOME!!! Check out Rudy with all new war-on-terror-speech action!
posted by crazy finger at 7:53 AM on August 31, 2004

I am so looking forward to President Bush losing. Will Metafilter turn black in mourning? (or is it white?) It will feel at least as good as the Yankees losing the World Series.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:54 AM on August 31, 2004

Yes, that was sarcasm.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:55 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy made it clear: the connection between all international terrorism: between Yasser and Saddam and (implicitly) Syria, Iran and North Korea. It's the broken window theory on a larger scale. Its why Saddam had to go, and why there will be future invasions (in all probability). On my To Do List for this week: get a few Democrats for Bush buttons.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:59 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy Giuliani is a mammal...
posted by jpoulos at 8:02 AM on August 31, 2004

I don't give a tin shit about the convention. I want this anomalous short-selling - and the names of the people who stood to gain from it - thoroughly and openly aired.

We can catch and 'prosecute' Osama's caddy, but we can't come up with the name of a single monied pin-striped goon who tried to make a buck off this?

I call bullshit and shenanigans.
posted by trondant at 8:02 AM on August 31, 2004

I can't wait until PP finally finishes this Modern Internet Sociology dissertation he's been working on. We'll all be famous!
posted by jpoulos at 8:03 AM on August 31, 2004

"there will be future invasions (in all probability)"

The number one reason to vote for Kerry.
posted by Outlawyr at 8:07 AM on August 31, 2004

the broken window theory on a larger scale

The broken window theory, of course, being racist bullshit.
posted by sudama at 8:08 AM on August 31, 2004

ParisParanus: it's obvious that the poster aims to distract everyone from the awesome events at the RNC last night.

First, let me say that I thought the post was mediocre at best. But "distract?" No one was even talking about that festival of suck; how exactly were we being distracted?

And "obvious?" Who are you to infer meaning on someone's choice to post?

As always, your vitriolic, broken-record ranting prevents one from considering the original post on its merits because it's invariably better than what you had to say.

It won't work--at least in the real, non-Mefi world.

Are you sure? Because I expect every post and every comment made here to ring out through the firmament, overwhelming the efforts of the media, political parties and the world at large. So if that were not to happen with this post in particular, I'd be as shocked as Peter Gabriel's monkey.

Idiot.
posted by Sinner at 8:08 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy's in trouble? Bush is the one who was given a memo titled, "Bin Laden Determined To Strike in US." Talk about being asleep at the switch.

That's what bothers me about Republicans. They're for ethics, character, and moral values, but they're re-electing the antithesis of everything they value. The bottom line is that politics trumps morals for them. It's sick.
posted by fleener at 8:08 AM on August 31, 2004

/me raises an eyebrow

dissertating mammals? Ok, I guess. Gotta feed the young 'uns somehow.
posted by trondant at 8:11 AM on August 31, 2004

Didn't we dismiss that timeline as little more than vague conspiracy wishing the last time that troutfishing decided to dust it off and display it. I mean when you come to a conclusion like this
"The 9-11 attacks have certainly worked strongly to Israel's benefit (from a certain perspective anyway), as the US now serves as Israel's Gurkha Regiment in Iraq."
I've gotta think something is amiss with the logic.

Firstly, Israel didn't care much about an Iraqi threat. They don't because they pretty much took care of it when they blew up Osirak. Oh sure they're glad Saddam's gone but if he had hung around not much would've changed. I mean in Gulf War I, Saddam launched 30 or so SCUDs into Israel and got all of one fatality. Iran has always been a much greater threat to Israel than Iraq, pre- or post-Saddam will ever be. If Israel was behind 9/11 then why oh why was the final outcome a toppling of a regime (Iraq) that was little more than an irritant to Israel at the time thanks to the UN no-fly zone and sanctions.

Secondly, the 9/11 attacks "mesh neatly" with Sharon's policies like cheese sticks "mesh neatly" with cordon bleau., that is, not at all. Likud is only in power because they are seen by the majority of Israeli's as offering some kind of security and stopping attacks on Israeli civilians. The US invasion of Iraq just gave terrorist groups more of a reason to attack Israel. Heck I'd wager that if the various factions currently fighting a low level civil war amongst the Palestinians can get together and actually put some some effort into a decent negotiating team willing to do some actual bargaining Sharon would be out of power in a flash.
posted by PenDevil at 8:21 AM on August 31, 2004

Trout - I'm sorry that you feel that way. I am about as left wing as it's possible to be but your attitude has pissed me off now. Can't you see that by going on about "the conspiracy" you are making us look utterly ridiculous? Joe Sixpack (the infamous "Average American") doesn't give a flying fuck if Bush himself piloted one of the planes into the towers and parachuted out at the last minute.
I have always respected your posting history but this is stupid. Shit like this is going to get Kerry caned at the elections and it will be our fault for diluting the issues to such a point that we can be dismissed via association.
I've read the timeline and It seems obvious that something was happening and that the Bush crew dropped the ball. That isn't the point. If you want to get rid of them you have to concentrate on convincing the undecided people and conspiracy theory doesn't work for that.
posted by longbaugh at 8:22 AM on August 31, 2004

PenDevil: Secondly, the 9/11 attacks "mesh neatly" with Sharon's policies like cheese sticks "mesh neatly" with cordon bleau., that is, not at all.

LIES.
posted by Sinner at 8:25 AM on August 31, 2004

Rudy is a conniving opportunist who showed some genuine humanity in the aftermath of unspeakable tragedy. That's about it. He's about as much of a Republican icon as Zell Miller is a Democratic one.
posted by psmealey at 8:33 AM on August 31, 2004

I take comfort in the Left being incapable of marshaling its irrational hatred beyond the point of staging wacky protests. Instead of constructively participating in, say, moderating the President's environmental or econ policy shortsightedness, the "Left" is too full of itself.

So, enjoy your continued myopic loser masturbation.

And have a nice day.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:34 AM on August 31, 2004

(err, the cheese sticks/cordon bleau [sic] part, at least)
posted by Sinner at 8:35 AM on August 31, 2004

I take comfort in the Left being incapable of marshaling its irrational hatred beyond the point of staging wacky protests... the "Left" is too full of itself.

So, enjoy your continued myopic loser masturbation.

Another lesson in "constructive participation" from ParisParanus.
posted by Sinner at 8:38 AM on August 31, 2004

Since when did the "Left" become this monolithic thing?

I'm not a member of an organized political party. I'm a Democrat. - Will Rogers

Also, are bifocals generally thge preferred method of correcting myopic loser masturbation?
posted by psmealey at 8:39 AM on August 31, 2004

So, enjoy your continued myopic loser masturbation.

I know you are but what am I?

*puts finger to nose and wiggles fingers*
posted by goethean at 8:42 AM on August 31, 2004

{unzip} Sinner - you best check yo'self befo' you wreck yo'self... er sumthin'.
posted by Witty at 8:46 AM on August 31, 2004

Wouldn't a myopic attempting to masturbate probably wind up passionately stroking his knee?

Since when did the "Left" become this monolithic thing?

It isn't and it never was, but people tend to get very dug in to their positions these days, left or right. And people on both sides seem unwilling to crticize those within their own ranks, unless it's for not being "left" or "right" enough, rather than just being plain wrong or stupid or dangerous, and they're are plenty of people who need and deserve criticism on both sides.

That's not fence sitting, that's just honesty.
posted by jonmc at 8:48 AM on August 31, 2004

The Left is monolithic enough to have staged a protest on Sunday organized by Ms. Kagan, a woman who even opposed going into Afghanistan. Left Lemmings Index (LLI): pretty high.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:50 AM on August 31, 2004

Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks

and the other half think osama is saddam. we are doomed.
posted by quonsar at 8:52 AM on August 31, 2004

there are plenty of people who need and deserve criticism on both side

Amen.
posted by psmealey at 8:53 AM on August 31, 2004

Witty, the irony was not lost on me.
posted by Sinner at 8:54 AM on August 31, 2004

Can't you see that by going on about "the conspiracy" you are making us look utterly ridiculous? ... Shit like this is going to get Kerry caned at the elections and it will be our fault for diluting the issues to such a point that we can be dismissed via association.

I'd wager you speak for many many of us, longbaugh, especially those who are foolishly silent when it comes to rebutting someone (troutfishing) within their own political ranks. Well-put.

So, enjoy your continued myopic loser masturbation.

Myopic Loser Masturbation just played a small club here in town recently, opening for Guiliani is a Mammal. Really tight set, good dynamics, good stage presence. Anyone know if they're still doing that split 7-inch in the fall?
posted by dhoyt at 8:58 AM on August 31, 2004

The Left is monolithic enough to have staged a protest on Sunday organized by Ms. Kagan, a woman who even opposed going into Afghanistan.

Paris, I was at that protest, and along the way I shot the breeze with people ranging from firefighters, drag queens, vietnam veterans, "young communists," animal rights folk,and rastafarians. While everybody was relatively civil, I can tell you with absolute assurance that there was large gulfs of disagreement there on plenty of issues. The problem is not that the left is "monolithic," just that (like the right) it's afraid to disagree in public.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 AM on August 31, 2004

Perhaps, jonmc, but at some point, reasonable dissent over Iraq is tainted, in not poisoned by association with the Bu$Hitler crowd, the communists, the Mumia freaks, etc.

But hey, the guilt-by-association (not criminal guilt; moral, intellectual guilt) will be judged in November.

So go wild!
posted by ParisParamus at 9:06 AM on August 31, 2004

They're for ethics, character, and moral values, but they're re-electing the antithesis of everything they value.

Those who scream the loudest should, in most cases, be paid the least attention to.
posted by rushmc at 9:06 AM on August 31, 2004

The poll still seems a little dubious to me: the listed methodology is just their standard, so there's little information there. Most importantly, they don't list the questions so we have no real way of knowing if the questions were leading (i.e. is this a push poll?) or if there was some other factor that might have affected the results. Given that the poll was sponsored by 911truth.org ("a coalition of researchers, journalists and victim family members working to expose and resolve the hundreds of critical questions still swirling around 9/11"), it pays to be a bit skeptical and inquisitive.
posted by elvolio at 9:08 AM on August 31, 2004

Perhaps, jonmc, but at some point, reasonable dissent over Iraq is tainted, in not poisoned by association with the Bu$Hitler crowd, the communists, the Mumia freaks, etc.

Only if people like myself don't make themselves heard to change that impression. I'm probably more anti-communist than you are, I think Mumia's right where he belongs, I'm a meat-eating, porn-watching American male with zero tolerance for terrorism, and I still think W. is a shitty president and I did my part to help get him gone.
posted by jonmc at 9:11 AM on August 31, 2004

Fair enough. Porn?! Ick!
posted by ParisParamus at 9:13 AM on August 31, 2004

Hasn't it already been proven that people in power had all sorts of warnings, some specific and some more vague, from a wide wide variety of domestic and international sources? It's not conspiracy, but fact. Why weren't we on alert? Why weren't airlines being more security-conscious? Why didn't the FBI tell the airlines about the hijackers? There were watch lists pre-9/11. Why weren't they on it? Why did Ashcroft and others stop flying commercial planes? There are way way too many unanswered questions.

Make that 49.4%. Add me to the list.
posted by amberglow at 9:14 AM on August 31, 2004

But hey, the guilt-by-association (not criminal guilt; moral, intellectual guilt) will be judged in November.

Yup, criminal guilt is all on the GOP side.
posted by amberglow at 9:16 AM on August 31, 2004

ParisParamus, you and Ru-Paul both believe the world is round. Hence, you, too, must be a drag queen.

No?
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:21 AM on August 31, 2004

I'd wager you speak for many many of us, longbaugh, especially those who are foolishly silent when it comes to rebutting someone (troutfishing) within their own political ranks. Well-put.

Add me to that list ("political ranks" being somewhat broadly defined to mean "Democrat" in my case, of course). In any case, well said, longbaugh.

This is probably bad news for Rudy Giuliani.

I think it's bad news about the reasoning abilities of 49.34% of New Yorkers.
posted by pardonyou? at 9:25 AM on August 31, 2004

Except I didn't march up 7th Ave with Ru-Paul at a "world isn't flat" protest, while Ru-Paul carried a "I am a drag queen" placard.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:26 AM on August 31, 2004

Perhaps, jonmc, but at some point, reasonable dissent over Iraq is tainted, in not poisoned by association with the Bu$Hitler crowd, the communists, the Mumia freaks, etc.

Just as the "Invade all Muslim countries and convert them to Christianity" folks taint the pro-war crowd, I guess...? How about we spend less time talking about the fringes of either side?
posted by gwint at 9:26 AM on August 31, 2004

Oh, gwint. The fringes are apparently where the fun is.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:40 AM on August 31, 2004

Maybe if both the mainstream right and left weren't half-assed apologists for their fringes, we could actually get down to serious constructive discussion.
posted by jonmc at 9:46 AM on August 31, 2004

Suddenly, the otherwise very vocal MeFi rightwingers are silent. My respect to you trout

I didn't know they were supposed to waste time addressing the concerns of paranoiacs. Where's the link to whatreallyhappened.com?

Otherwise, I think Postroad has the winning comment in this thread. Nailed it right in the start.


Maybe if both the mainstream right and left weren't half-assed apologists for their fringes, we could actually get down to serious constructive discussion.

Yep, that would be nice. And if grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon. Though I guess it's possible the fringe groups will one day become extreme enough that they will completely alienate even their mainstream apologists. Or, alternatively, pull the mainstream down with them. Let's hope for the former.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:09 AM on August 31, 2004

Though I guess it's possible the fringe groups will one day become extreme enough that they will completely alienate even their mainstream apologists. Or, alternatively, pull the mainstream down with them.

Like the neocons and fundamentalists did with the GOP?
posted by amberglow at 10:18 AM on August 31, 2004

Jonmc, I couldn't agree more.

The whole "our guys, no matter how crazy" vs. "their guys, no matter how sane" mentality is so profoundly alienating to unaffiliated voters like me.

And yet, no matter how much the vital importance of the unaffiliated "swing" voter is touted by media and political parties alike, the sad truth is that the US electoral process becomes more and more like a football match and less and less like a discussion about issues of public interest every year.

Why do we even bother? Why don't we just have a cage-match-to-the-death between an actual elephant and an actual donkey every four years and let the winning team run things?

The TV ratings would be a hell of a lot better than they are for the embarrassing festivals of posterior osculation that the Democans and Republicrats hold now.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:26 AM on August 31, 2004

Shit like this is going to get Kerry caned at the elections and it will be our fault for diluting the issues

yeah, it'll be MeFi's fault. after all, we are the ones who told Kerry to let the Swift Boat Liars dictate an entire month's agenda and do maximum damage to his (lackluster) campaign
posted by matteo at 11:11 AM on August 31, 2004

Like the neocons and fundamentalists did with the GOP?

*hugs amberglow*
posted by matteo at 11:13 AM on August 31, 2004

Let's not forget that on 9/10/01 Rudy was probably the most hated person in all of NYC.
posted by clevershark at 11:24 AM on August 31, 2004

matteo, it's not MeFi - it's all of us in the Anti-Bush squad. If we don't focus on the important matters we will lose. Rove is a fucking evil genius with his divide and conquer tactics and right now I don't hold a lot of hope for a Kerry win.

Which scares me.

And if we do go down the cage-match route can the donkey get a big spike on it's head or whirling blades'o'death on it's hooves? Considering the weight difference it's only fair.
posted by longbaugh at 11:25 AM on August 31, 2004

"Bush Hug."
posted by thomcatspike at 11:31 AM on August 31, 2004

Daschle is a joke. We've never had weaker Senate leadership.

Rove is a fucking evil genius with his divide and conquer tactics and right now
If Rove was such a genius the polls wouldn't have been tied for the past year (and history shows incumbents lose when they're not ahead in the polls). The Repubs haven't gotten Hispanic, Black, Jewish, or first-time voter/college student support--all groups they were shooting for. If turnout is high, they lose.
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on August 31, 2004

Aren't we already discussing this? Me, I think it's the 5th dimensional beings who caused it all. Make sure you hang up your tinfoil blankets so that this whole 9/11 thing becomes clear.

This is one of the reasons these demonstrations NYC are so pointless. Anyone looking will see the well meaning opposition but also see them standing side by side with anti-US communists, conspiracy morons and extreme wingnuts of all kinds.

It leads one to conclude that most of these people just love protesting and don't really care for the cause much.

"Anyone but Bush" is just a current cry. For many of these people its "protest against.... umm... whatever it is that's happening!"
posted by soulhuntre at 11:46 AM on August 31, 2004

Except I didn't march up 7th Ave with Ru-Paul at a "world isn't flat" protest, while Ru-Paul carried a "I am a drag queen" placard.

But you do tend to identify heavily with the party of racism, sexism, homophobia and hatred. Paint your own wagon. Given a choice, RuPaul or "free Mumia" either one sounds much better.
posted by nofundy at 11:54 AM on August 31, 2004

amberglow - the polls shouldn't be tied. That's the point. With all the shit thrown at Bush in the past four years you'd have thought more would stuck. It seems he has been hanging with Tony "Teflon Boy" Blair for too long.
As far as the minority vote - Republicans don't care about those votes because they have an active voting block who actually bother to get off their arses come the day. I really hope the Democrat voters can conjure up that level of dedication.

soulhuntre - that displays such a complete misunderstanding of protesting that I can only assume that you are one of the Illuminati. Only that could explain the fact that nothing in this world has ever caused you such annoyance that you would add your voice to the multitude and cry for change.
posted by longbaugh at 12:02 PM on August 31, 2004

hang up your tinfoil blankets...this image came to mind.
posted by thomcatspike at 12:08 PM on August 31, 2004

I really hope the Democrat voters can conjure up that level of dedication.
Watch and see. We've never been fired up and looking forward to it. Take everyone that voted Gore last time (a bigger base to begin with than Bush's), and add more. There are more of us--a lot more.
posted by amberglow at 12:11 PM on August 31, 2004

so fired up : >
posted by amberglow at 12:13 PM on August 31, 2004

Rove is a fucking evil genius with his divide and conquer tactics and right now I don't hold a lot of hope for a Kerry win.

Ahem: No Change in Presidential Race Despite Attack Ads

Since May, the race between Bush and Kerry among likely voters has varied within a small range -- with Kerry having a six-point lead in early June, and Bush a four-point lead at the end of July.

Although Bush's lead in the current poll is within the poll's margin of error, Bush has maintained this lead in three successive polls, with a combined sample size of more than 2,000 likely voters. This consistency of support suggests that Bush enjoys a real, though small, lead among likely voters nationally.

The race is tighter among registered voters. Kerry receives 48% support to Bush's 47%, while the numbers were reversed in the Aug. 9-11 poll. In the July 30-Aug. 1 poll, each candidate received 48% support. All these results suggest that little has changed since the Democratic National Convention took place in Boston during the last week in July, and that neither candidate has an advantage among all registered voters.

Let the hand wringing desist for the time being...
posted by y2karl at 1:07 PM on August 31, 2004

This election isn't about ideas anymore. It's the world's biggest pissing match.

Why bother with an intricate 9-11 plot when the GOP has Diebold in their back pocket AND their Voter suppession squads operating right out in the open?

Nobody's protesting that.
posted by black8 at 1:08 PM on August 31, 2004

does anyone know how they ACTUALLY poll people? are they solely relying on lan-line phones?
posted by nyoki at 1:18 PM on August 31, 2004

Why has no-one called out the whole "Israel did it" theory for the anti-semitism it is? And I don't use that term lightly, either.
posted by reklaw at 1:29 PM on August 31, 2004

"Israel did it" and "Israel knew about it, and warned the US" are two very different things tho. The vast majority of people are saying the latter, except in Arab countries.
posted by amberglow at 1:32 PM on August 31, 2004

A conspiracy theory is the idea that Saddam was working on getting nukes in 2002. A conspiracy theory is the belief that Iraq was a den of terrorists before we invaded. A conspiracy theory is the belief that our government did everything it could to prevent the attacks on 9/11.

Millions of people believe these things to be true. Guess who they're voting for.
posted by euphorb at 1:51 PM on August 31, 2004

are they solely relying on lan-line phones?

Eggcorn! (It's "land lines".)
posted by jpoulos at 1:54 PM on August 31, 2004

A conspiracy theory is the idea that Saddam was working on getting nukes in 2002. A conspiracy theory is the belief that Iraq was a den of terrorists before we invaded.

I'll buy all of that. However, say what you will about GWB, he never posted millions of lines of unformatted rat shit what interrupts a good circle jerk.
posted by yerfatma at 2:24 PM on August 31, 2004

Metafilter: If it had wheels, it would be your grandma's wagon.

With thanks to Krrrrrrrrrrlson.
posted by Sinner at 4:05 PM on August 31, 2004

nyoki: solicitors/pollsters aren't allowed to call (american, anyway) cell-phones. FCC rules prohibit them from calling anyone who would have to pay for the call.

Little bit more here.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 4:25 PM on August 31, 2004

"Anyone but Bush" is just a current cry. For many of these people its "protest against.... umm... whatever it is that's happening!"

And for the vast majority of us, it isn't. So what's your point?
posted by rushmc at 6:24 PM on August 31, 2004

Suddenly, the otherwise very vocal MeFi rightwingers are silent.

Yes ... all four of them ... versus the four hundred or so "very vocal" MeFi leftwingers?

What a hoot.

Vote for John Kerry. He's a war hero, and Sharon Stone's cousin.
posted by MidasMulligan at 6:28 PM on August 31, 2004

Left Right, same same. These inane arguments you fanatics (both sides) have daily on this site are tired.


This election isn't about ideas anymore. It's the world's biggest pissing match.

That pretty much sums it up right there.


...If turnout is high, they lose.

They lose what? The populare vote? Since when did that ever elect a POTUS? Certainly didn't do anything in that last election did it?

You are lying to yourself if you think popular vote is going to count for shit in this election. Nice thought, but somehow.......
posted by a3matrix at 7:40 PM on August 31, 2004

Suddenly, the otherwise very vocal MeFi rightwingers are silent.

Silent about what? The fact that 49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens that were polled are idiots? I didn't know that we needed "very vocal MeFi rightwingers" to point this out.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:50 PM on August 31, 2004

Take everyone that voted Gore last time (a bigger base to begin with than Bush's), and add more.

Like Ed Koch?
posted by Krrrlson at 9:13 PM on August 31, 2004

The fact that 49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens that were polled are idiots?

Steve, I generally like you for your sheer balls if nothing else, but don't diss my beloved Big Apple.
posted by jonmc at 9:25 PM on August 31, 2004

"Shit like this is going to get Kerry caned at the elections and it will be our fault for diluting the issues to such a point that we can be dismissed via association." - Kerry will triumph, or not, based on the camera angle that the news media chooses to present, which either enhances or minimizes the size of his balls.

Simple, and timeless.

Your point underscores the fact of the mainstream media's overall complicity in dismissing "via association".

But, both the Democrats and the Republicans seek to unify their own fractious coalitions, and the value of those who challenge official accounts of reality cannot be so easily dismissed.

Without that juice, the Democratic or Republican parties would be limp, dessicated things. Outrage is the Cialis of Democracy.

_____________________


euphorb wins.

"A conspiracy theory is the idea that Saddam was working on getting nukes in 2002. A conspiracy theory is the belief that Iraq was a den of terrorists before we invaded. A conspiracy theory is the belief that our government did everything it could to prevent the attacks on 9/11.

Millions of people believe these things to be true. Guess who they're voting for.
posted by troutfishing at 10:13 PM on August 31, 2004

don't diss my beloved Big Apple

I'm not. That is why I said "49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens that were polled are idiots." I am suspect of the sample.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 10:16 PM on August 31, 2004

"Unfortunately it is stupid statements like this that result in the left being dismissed as "wingnuts" by many." - Longbaugh, unles you're willing to confront my facts (and do you challenge the material I presented ?) then you're simply leading the Gravy Train of denial.

Give your fellow humans more credit - they can smell the boundaries that demarcate authenticity from lies.
posted by troutfishing at 10:29 PM on August 31, 2004

I couldn't give a fuck about your facts Trout and neither do the voting public. You are not convincing anyone. I give my fellow humans no credit at all as I have spent years surrounded by them and have no confidence whatsoever.
Yesterday on BBC News 24 which is permanently playing on a TV at my work behind me - the bombs in Israel got about 5 minutes airtime every hour compared to 15-20 minutes airtime about a football player changing teams. This is how much people care. Don't hold any hope that the average person will investigate fact vs fiction.
I know the timeline - you've posted it before, most of us here have read it. Yes there are discrepancies. Yes Bush et al fucked up. No there wasn't a conspiracy. You can disagree all you like - you cannot conceal the murder of 3000 people. The families of the victims of 9/11 will never be satisfied with the answers they receive, in the same way that people cannot accept Oswald shot JFK. I'm sorry you disagree.
I don't need to confront your "facts" because all they are is a series of events which took place over a particular timescale. People have weaved them together in an attempt to create truth, in the same way the CIA and other intelligence organs presented evidence which "showed" the existence of WMD in Iraq.
Right now you are looking for order where there is none - it's kind of like reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail - find a hypothesis and then make the evidence fit. How can you accept this? You have an intelligent, analytical, scientific mind and you don't usually talk crap. Is it because you want to believe?
posted by longbaugh at 12:35 AM on September 1, 2004

My only source of English-language TV news is BBC World as well, and I agree it sucks, but by the bouncing balls of the baby jesus, it's orders of magnitude better than the couple hours of CNN I've been exposed to in the last few years....

The media have failed us all.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:46 AM on September 1, 2004

Yeah, if you're ever going to hate on the BBC or CBC, you need to spin your satellite dish around for a taste of our 24 hour news stations. There's a wide variety of flavors of suck.
posted by yerfatma at 4:09 AM on September 1, 2004

longbaugh: I give my fellow humans no credit at all as I have spent years surrounded by them and have no confidence whatsoever... I couldn't give a fuck about your facts Trout and neither do the voting public. You are not convincing anyone. [edited]

You've managed to convince me that if there's anyone who deserves "no confidence whatsoever," longbaugh, it's you. In the same post you manage to patronizingly lament the stupidity of the plebeian masses and say you "don't give a fuck about your facts." See, that - exactly that - is kind of the problem.

After all those years you must have spent waiting for a membership here, this is what you had to say?
posted by Sinner at 7:23 AM on September 1, 2004

The fact that 49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens that were polled are idiots?

Zogby International conducted interviews of 808 adults chosen at random in New York State.
posted by thomcatspike at 8:36 AM on September 1, 2004

The fact that 49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens that were polled are idiots?

Zogby International conducted interviews of 808 adults chosen at random in New York State. All calls were made from Zogby International headquarters in Utica, N.Y., from 8/24/04 through 8/26/04. The margin of error is +/- 3.5 percentage points. Slight weights were added to region, party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the population. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups.
posted by thomcatspike at 8:42 AM on September 1, 2004

Sinner - you've done a bang up job illustrating my point there. You've even edited my comment to fit your worldview. What are my politics? (clue - see the post beforehand) Seems to me like you just jumped in with an assumption of what you think I believe and have then rewritten my original comment to fit that viewpoint. I personally think Trout is a great poster - I have enjoyed reading the vast majority of his stuff but the timeline is not an indicator of conspiracy - it is a series of facts (note that I never said they were not facts).
As for these -
"See, that - exactly that - is kind of the problem." I have no idea what the hell you are talking about and this "After all those years you must have spent waiting for a membership here, this is what you had to say?" Yes, brilliant. I waited four years to make one comment. It's all been leading up to this point, my life is complete.
If you seriously believe most people are not stupid then I can only hope that one day I get to move within the circles you move where everyone is intelligent, well read, interested in the world around them and goes out checking facts for themselves. I could drop several tons of anecdote on you to prove otherwise but what would be the point in that?
You want proof of the gullibility and stupidity of the public? Ask around - see how many people believe in UFOs, the JFK conspiracy, the Iraqi WMD, Bush won the last election etc. People are dumb and if you don't get that you obviously don't know many.
posted by longbaugh at 3:59 PM on September 1, 2004

longbaugh, you continue to dodge the point here. In the same comment, you said "I give my fellow humans no credit at all," and also that "I don't give a fuck about facts." That pretty much shatters your credibility as a critic, unless you were trying to explain just how dumb you are yourself. Pot-kettle-black, physician-heal-thyself, blah blah blah. So, if your intention was to slander yourself, sure, you've done a bang-up job at it.

And sure, I re-arranged a few of your sentences - and noted it! - so as to conserve space here, but so far as I recall that's not even a misdemeanor. But as to your paranoid inferences - when exactly did I mention my worldview? What did I say about your politics?

And while I'm pleased to say that no, I don't associate with many people who place much stock in the conspiracy theories you mention are the bedrock of your social set, I can also say (with greater pleasure still) that that means I clearly don't associate with your social set.
posted by Sinner at 5:52 PM on September 1, 2004

What about the unexplained collapses of WTC 7, our air defenses, official accountability, the chain of command on 9/11, the anthrax, insider trading & FBI field probes?

I'm not a NYer, so I can't speak to many of the so-called inconsistencies. However, the items I bolded above were widely covered in the media for a time and then disappeared. What gives?

I'm not looking for some sort of "the evil Bush-Cheney-Rove cabal is behind it all" answer. A thorough and transparent investigation that comes up with a reasonable explanation and takes the appropriate action would do nicely, thank you. Even a "we're investigating it and have found some evidence but can't discuss it with the public because it would hamper our on-going investigation" would work for me. Instead, we've got nothing but silence and that lack of information is exactly what is fueling conspiracists to make wild speculations.
posted by echolalia67 at 9:52 PM on September 1, 2004

you cannot conceal the murder of 3000 people

your right, but we can conceal the # of murders the US is currently delivering to iraqi families. no one knows how many of them there are. do we rate the 3000 dead americans as more important to the possible tens of thousands of dead in iraq, for a war which no WMD have been found nor a connection to 9-11. thank god the mushroom cloud himself is sitting in a jail cell.

it's a good question - the anthrax, the insider trading, the failure of the chain of command and standard operating procedures . . . what about that?

and the fact that no evidence has been found linking saddam to 9-11 . . . inconvienient to say the least.
posted by nyoki at 12:03 AM on September 2, 2004

Sinner - exactly where did I mention who was in my social set? Exactly where did I say that I hang out with conspiracy theorists? I posted comments deriding conspiracies and then used the fact that people believe in them to illustrate my point that people are dumb. I can't believe you don't understand this. My friends will all be elated to know that someone without simple reading comprehension skills will not be allowed into our social set. I'll let them know and we'll have a party in your honour.

As I said previously - what is your point? You do understand that looking at facts and deciding there is no correlation between them other than sheer incompetence is not discarding the facts - just the inference that there is some hidden chain of evil behind them. Here is what I said earlier -

I've read the timeline and It seems obvious that something was happening and that the Bush crew dropped the ball. That isn't the point. If you want to get rid of them you have to concentrate on convincing the undecided people and conspiracy theory doesn't work for that.

Other people seemed to understand what I am talking about. Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you don't get it. In either case I don't see the point in further pandering to your desperate need to talk crap so unless you actually have something useful to add...

echolalia67 - I fully support a full investigation into the anthrax, the intelligence failures, the incompetence on the day etc. My point is that the fringe groups are drawing away attention from the policies which should be the primary issues in this election. It's easy for most of us to point out the SBVFT lies, the WMD lies and all the rest but we are not the ones who need convincing and it's this lack of direction that will turn off the independents we need to guarantee a win.
posted by longbaugh at 1:01 AM on September 2, 2004