Comments on: absentee ballot fun

absentee ballot fun

taumeson — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:49:59 -0800

So I saw this image online (of a Michigan absentee ballot...which arrow is for Kerry, and which is for Bush?) and it made me think, what the hell is going on with this election? On the one hand, I'm told your vote might just be worthless if you use electronic voting machines but on the other hand the alternative (in my state, at least) is to use an absentee ballot, which, according to some, might be easier, if only because I can have members of a political party help me fill it out.

By: taumeson

taumeson — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:56:16 -0800

now, i'm no poli sci major, but i'm pretty sure i know what representative democracy looks like....and this ain't it. are there any states that don't have their heads completely up their asses when it comes to this? what the hell happened to our voting process? and don't get me started on gerrymandering.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:01:38 -0800

Is it just me, or does the BUSH/CHENEY column have no, uh, thingy next to it? What are those, anyway?

By: abcde

abcde — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:04:35 -0800

To me it looks like that ballot was photoshopped or something, to move down the row of arrows. I'm finding it dificult to believe someone wouldn't catch that all along the line. Also, what's with the stunted arrows on the right side? :P

By: abcde

abcde — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:09:39 -0800

Civil_Disobedient: Well, thing is, Kerry/Edwards has the first thingy/arrow next to it, as the whole set is shifted down. Which means plausably a check next to first arrow could still be deemed to represent Bush, even though it points to Kerry.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:18:02 -0800

Taumeson - Do you know which county/township, whatever those came from ? How did you come across this ? Are they the statewide ballots ? This story deserves promotion. A quick Google search down to the first 20 hits pulled up nothing. Plus, it hasn't showed up on Unknown News

By: fenriq

fenriq — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:24:36 -0800

Um yeah, if this isn't electoral fraud then it is, at the very least, misleading and decietful. It blows my mind that they are going to still try to steal another election with this bullshit vote fixing. I would highly recommend that ANYONE with a question about their ballot ask the election officials for information. They are there to help make the election valid. And I'm sickened by the bullshit. Still happy that Bush got his ass kicked last night though. Troutfishing, I googled a couple of names on the ballot and it looks like Robert Beracy is the sheriff of Gratiot County in Michigan.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:25:48 -0800

Why doesn't someone send this to the Michigan Democratic party for validation - true or photoshopped ? Michigan Democratic Party 606 Townsend Street Lansing, MI 48933 Voice: (517) 371-5410 FAX: (517) 371-2056 midemparty@mi-democrats.com

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:29:06 -0800

fenriq - it still could be photoshopped though, to discredit people who make noise about real fraud. I sent an email. if others do it as well, we might get to truth of this. Then, it might be vetted as a valid, newsworthy story.

By: spacewrench

spacewrench — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:30:34 -0800

I just called the Michigan Secretary of State, elections department. The lady hadn't heard of any stink about the ballot, and send me to Brad ... forgethislastname's voicemail. I left a message asking whether I could find an official copy of the ballot online. It's just ~~inconceivable~~ barely conceivable that something like this could happen.

By: stopgap

stopgap — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:44:24 -0800

Also, what's with the stunted arrows on the right side? I think with this type of ballot, you complete the arrow with your pencil, and it then gets read by an optical scanner. It's a similar concept to fil-in-the-ovals, but less intuitive, or at least less familiar.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:46:18 -0800

The jpg of the ballot is on personal website which contains nothing but pics, a video clip one level up, and nothing but "foo" at the root URL. It was just set up in the last 3 months and seems to be merely a travel pic site. That would be consistent if the owner is overseas. Still, why wouldn't he complain to anyone ? Nonetheless, this could be real.

By: tenseone

tenseone — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:50:55 -0800

Has any one else taken a look at this jpeg in Photoshop at 700+%? I am by no means a professional debunker, though compared to the rest of the ballot at this magnitude: it seems real.

By: evening

evening — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:51:21 -0800

this is what I love about mefi. keep up the great investigative work!

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:52:58 -0800

WTF aren't these forms being designed by experts? There's no way in hell that form had any input from an appropriately-educated human interactions designer. I don't think the USA takes its elections very seriously.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:53:08 -0800

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:01:00 -0800

tenseone - I could be real, it could be a fake. Anyone with even a moderate level of Photoshop expertise could have faked it. Here's the U/Michigan newspaper staff contact info : they might be willing to hop on and verify or debunk this ballot. Other news orgs in Michigan might be interested in this as well. But, I'm off to other tasks. _____________________________ NEWS 734.763.2459 news@michigandaily.com Tomislav Ladika, Managing Editor EDITORS: Alison Go, Carmen Johnson, Andrew Kaplan, Emily Kraack STAFF: Farayha Arrine, Melissa Benton, David Branson, Adrian Chen, Ashley Dinges, Adhiraj Dutt, Victoria Edwards, Yasmin Elsayed, Chloe Foster, Cianna Freeman, Donn M. Fresard, Michael Gurovitsch, Marie Handfield, Aymar Jean, Anne Joling, Michael Kan, Genevieve Lampinen, Melton Lee, Justin Miller, Naila Moreira, Jameel Naqvi, Kristin Ostby, Lindsey Paterson, Koustubh Patwardhan, Kristin Przybylski, Mona Rafeeq, Lucille Vaughan OPINION 734.763.2459 opinion@michigandaily.com Jason Z. Pesick, Editor ASSOCIATE EDITORS: Daniel Adams, Jennifer Misthal, Suhael Momin, Sam Singer STAFF: Katherine Cantor, Jasmine Clair, Zachary Denfeld, Sara Eber, Daniel Faichney, Jared Goldberg, Emily Hanan, Jeff Segal, Chris Zbrozek CARTOONISTS: Sam Butler, Colin Daly COLUMNISTS: Sravya Chirumamilla, Jasmine Clair, Steve Cotner, Joel Hoard, Sowmya Krishnamurthy, D.C. Lee, Elliot Mallen, Zac Peskowitz, Jordan Schrader

By: dig_duggler

dig_duggler — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:07:02 -0800

jebus, I hoped this is photoshopped.

By: dig_duggler

dig_duggler — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:08:06 -0800

and I also hope this is photoshopped : )

By: FreezBoy

FreezBoy — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:09:54 -0800

The ballot has now also been mentioned at Daily Kos. With a different image of the ballot Here

By: abcde

abcde — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:27:03 -0800

five fresh fish: It would be fairly usable if it weren't for the alignment error in the presidential section.

By: ulotrichous

ulotrichous — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:28:54 -0800

This just seems bogus. First of all, this is only a ballot for the 93rd district in Michigan, which is part of Gratiot and Clinton Counties, so even if it's real, it is not a statewide ballot. If you look at Clinton County's website, they actually (wow) have a pdf of the ballot, which doesn't have that error. The 93rd district ballot is in the PDF, under Bengal township. At least Clinton County got it right. I guess that it's hard to believe that this is real, because absentee ballots would be in a lot of peoples hands, and it would make good press. Plus, I know everything there possibly is to know about Nintendo Entertainment System games from 1982-1989, so I know what I'm talking about on this. Fear Me, Dan Rather!

By: abcde

abcde — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:33:04 -0800

Maryscott's reply on Kos says that the printing error has already been corrected and the new ballots sent out. I would find it difficult to believe that it wasn't some Republican operative that did this.

By: spacewrench

spacewrench — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:42:49 -0800

Just got a return call from Brad Wittman, the gentleman I left a message for earlier. He hadn't heard of the problem, and wasn't able to get to the websites while I was on the phone with him. I've sent the following letter with URLs; perhaps we'll hear more from him shortly. Thank you very much for returning my call. Here are links to several images that people have posted, that purport to be Michigan absentee ballots. I don't know whether they're just galley proofs, doctored scans, or actual ballots sent to voters. However, if they're real, they certainly look confusing. I hope this doesn't turn into too much of a headache for you. Best of luck with your operations next month. dave madden The first image I saw: http://www.scsworldwide.com/greg/pics/ballot.jpg A story at a website I'm not familiar with; I don't know if they're reliable. However, one of the comments states that the ballots were sent out, and that correction ballots have been mailed. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/1/135446/991 Another image of the ballot: http://www.livejournal.com/community/ann_arbor_ypsi/455987.html

By: RavinDave

RavinDave — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:23:00 -0800

Slightly off topic: Am I reading this correctly? You have an option on this ballot to vote a straight partyline ticket? Do I take this to mean that all you do is check this -- voila -- you're done? If so, that's soooo-ooo wrong (and not an option where I live). If someone can't be troubled to go through, read the friggin' ballot and vote for the person they want they shouldn't be voting. Democrat or Republican.

By: taumeson

taumeson — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:25:25 -0800

folks, this is an absentee ballot from a student at the university of michigan. it was the real deal. i don't know who that ann_arbor_ypsi person is, but that clipped photo was off of the original scan (whose address i'm not giving out for bandwidth reasons) as far as the company goes: Miller Consultations & Elections, Inc., 231-869-4349 dailykos didn't mention that. and as to where this ballot is from: it's from a town called "Alma", near Ann Arbor. and on preview: yeah, straight party line....i used to think that was always an option. weird, hmm?

By: abcde

abcde — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:38:35 -0800

RavinDave: It's standard practice. Most party members go down the list and vote for their party anyway when they don't know anything about a given race. I like the idea of expediting that really.

By: putzface_dickman

putzface_dickman — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:58:35 -0800

Enter at your own risk. No matter how many times you've voted, you're not ready for what you'll find on Election Day 2004. (The Other Paper - Columbus Ohio)

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:32:37 -0800

I'm thinking it's time to build a coalition of willing nations and bring you guys democracy.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:44:31 -0800

taumeson - that's quite helpful. Miller Consultations & Elections, Inc. printed the apparently deceptive ballots, eh ? That's a big, smelly "oops" on their business rep, it seems.

By: clevershark

clevershark — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:44:33 -0800

"If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election cycle." -- State Rep. John Pappageorge, R-Troy Yup, that's a direct quote. Commentary here. Perhaps this quote and this latest flap (if it is genuine) could be related?

By: spacewrench

spacewrench — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:18:45 -0800

From Brad Wittman in the Michigan Secretary of State's office:

Thanks for the sites. The ballot printing error is confined to a single precinct in the City of Alma. Approximately 69 ballots containing the error were released to voters on Monday, September 27. On Tuesday, September 28, a voter called the clerk to alert her to the error. Arrangements have been made to send the 69 voters replacement ballots. The clerk expects to receive corrected ballots on Monday, October 4. In the meantime, a voter who received one of the misprinted ballots posted a scan of the ballot on the web. This has created far more interest (an outrage) than what is warranted.

It seems weird that each precinct would print its own ballots, but who knows? I hope the printers & election officials in the other precincts / counties are a little more careful...

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:46:19 -0800

This has created far more interest (an outrage) than what is warranted. Um, bullshit. This kind of printing/design job could have been handled better by a 9th grader. Any ninth grader. This ninth grader.

By: thirteen

thirteen — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:09:27 -0800

Everything is about Bush and Kerry. What about me? I would be trying to go Libertarian and end up casting a vote for those Natural Law freaks!

By: contessa

contessa — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:09:46 -0800

This kind of printing/design job could have been handled better by a 9th grader. Any ninth grader. This ninth grader. Thing is, C_D? I don't think they are supposed to let George Bush design the ballots.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:54:39 -0800

Approximately 69 ballots containing the error were released to voters on Monday, September 27. I don't see any reason why the guy would lie, but this sounds like such complete and utter bullshit. How the hell would a mere 69 ballots get misprinted out of the thousands upon thousands of identical forms they printed? Someone please present me a sensible explanation.

By: gyc

gyc — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:01:12 -0800

69 ballots Damn those kinky Republicans.

By: spacewrench

spacewrench — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:59:45 -0800

Someone please present me a sensible explanation fff: I thought it was weird, too, that ballots would be printed on a precinct level. But, on further reflection, I realized that ballots have to be different on at least the congressional district scale, because you wouldn't want to list all the congresscritters on every ballot. Also, there are probably local bond measures and other things that are only relevant within one subportion of the state or another. So that explains not having a consistent, statewide ballot. It doesn't explain why they don't have a statewide template, with the main races & etc. listed first, and then blanks for each locality to fill in its own local candidates and ballot propositions before printing, though. 69 ballots seems like a rather small number, but on the other hand, it is absentee ballots, which must be requested. Perhaps it's not that surprising that only 69 people in a little town in the middle of Michigan were going to be away from their regular polling place on election day.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:10:48 -0800

well, i am one voter in one county in one township, but i have a michigan absentee ballot in my hand at this moment. it does not contain the "error". i'm very suspicious of that photo. here's the (poorly lit) ballot i have in hand, received last week.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:12:31 -0800

and upon reading the rest of the comments - never mind!

By: quonsar

quonsar — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:24:16 -0800

thousands upon thousands of identical forms there are a lot of elections on that day. down to the district level and beyond, in michigan. it is quite possible and not at all unusual that absentee ballots would differ when the residents live only a few miles apart. or even on opposite sides of the street, if it's a district or township boundary. you are too gullible.

By: anastasiav

anastasiav — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 21:42:19 -0800

How the hell would a mere 69 ballots get misprinted out of the thousands upon thousands of identical forms they printed? Someone please present me a sensible explanation. He didn't say only 69 were misprinted. He said only 69 were sent out.

By: zsazsa

zsazsa — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:31:43 -0800

I think it's possible this may have happened. Here in Boone County, Missouri, the logos for the Democratic (Donkey) and Libertarian (Statue of Liberty) parties were switched on all our ballots for about three years. That's not so serious, but if someone wanted to vote a straight party line ticket and just saw the logo and not the text, it'd lead to confusion.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:35:01 -0800

it's clearly a error that a printer made ... these things do happen, people ... and close inspection of the form reveals that the arrows weren't moved down a notch ... but the arrow that's supposed to indicate a vote for bush is just missing i hardly think the republicans would want that, would they?

By: taumeson

taumeson — Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:40:07 -0800

nah, it's not missing...they ARE moved down a notch. do a count of candidates (plus the write in) and then do a count of the arrows. 69, cause it's only absentee ballots...that really does NOT sound that bad...but it shows you the level of respect people have for the voting process anymore.

By: troutfishing

troutfishing — Sat, 02 Oct 2004 07:10:49 -0800

I'm going to some assertions : 1) These ballots are quite real, and the mistake was intentional - because absentee voters will tend to vote democratic. 2) This sort of bullcrap is happening in a thousand places or more across the US, and through a wide variety of sleazy methods. 3) There are LOTS of people watching for these types of sleazy, traitorous attacks on American Democracy, and those traitors who perpetrate these vicious assaults on America itself should realize that if John Kerry wins, they WILL be called to account and brought to justice. So - mr. "Sneaky terrorist-like attack on the American Democratic process" - how lucky do you feel?

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sat, 02 Oct 2004 10:10:11 -0800

Ah, only sixty-nine sent out, out of a couple hundred printed. That makes much more sense. Although I still don't understand in the least how the arrows could get misaligned. Especially the arrows for the one part of the form that would never, ever differ between forms.

By: luser

luser — Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:13:17 -0800

It's ridiculous that they can't coordinate a templating process statewide, so that each element (national races, or statewide races, or county races, etc.) is proofed once and printed on all the ballots to which it applies. Instead you have x opportunities for mistakes to creep in, where x is the total number of different contests in the state. They're literally producing a brandnew ballot for each neighborhood, and from scratch! Unbelievable. On preview: I came here from an October 6 doublepost callout link, and I just realized this thread is basically dead. I just spent five full minutes talking to myself. I hate that. ECHO! Echo echo echo echo

By: luser

luser — Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:17:42 -0800

I mean October 7. I'm talking to myself again.

By: caution live frogs

caution live frogs — Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:23:56 -0800

alma? alma's nowhere near ann arbor. it's like 150 miles northwest of ann arbor. but as a michigan resident i'm glad to see this was limited to just a few people, and that the problem had been corrected. and luser, some of us are also still chiming in....