Poll reveals world anger at Bush
October 15, 2004 2:45 AM Subscribe
George Bush has squandered a wealth of sympathy around the world towards America since September 11 with public opinion in 10 leading countries - including some of its closest allies - growing more hostile to the United States while he has been in office.
Except for Israel and Russia (!) the rest of the countries polled are pissed off with Bush, although they still like Americans. What do they know that Americans still don't?
What do they know that Americans still don't?
my two cents:
1. God is an assertion.
2. Good and Evil are subjective matters.
3. bulldozing countries spreads terror.
posted by nims at 3:12 AM on October 15, 2004
my two cents:
1. God is an assertion.
2. Good and Evil are subjective matters.
3. bulldozing countries spreads terror.
posted by nims at 3:12 AM on October 15, 2004
Well I'll say this - if you want to learn how to squander a position as a world power, become a clamoring pig at the trough of UN corruption and make a lifes work at attacking the few nations still capable of enforcing their own independance the listening to most of Europe is a great idea.
This idea that somehow just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me. It's common in all human endeavour though - those who are succeeding are always the first to be attacked.
posted by soulhuntre at 3:17 AM on October 15, 2004
This idea that somehow just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me. It's common in all human endeavour though - those who are succeeding are always the first to be attacked.
posted by soulhuntre at 3:17 AM on October 15, 2004
It's common in all human endeavour though - those who are succeeding are always the first to be attacked.
Yes, because no other country had ever suffered a terrorist attack before the United States.
Hmm, I wonder what we could know..
posted by The God Complex at 3:28 AM on October 15, 2004
Yes, because no other country had ever suffered a terrorist attack before the United States.
Hmm, I wonder what we could know..
posted by The God Complex at 3:28 AM on October 15, 2004
those who are succeeding
By what measure is America currently succeeding?
If anything America is in the start of a decline..
posted by srboisvert at 3:35 AM on October 15, 2004
By what measure is America currently succeeding?
If anything America is in the start of a decline..
posted by srboisvert at 3:35 AM on October 15, 2004
I am not sure what you are on about soulhuntre, but you sound angry. Maybe it is time for a holiday?
posted by asok at 3:39 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by asok at 3:39 AM on October 15, 2004
"This idea that somehow just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me."
Funny you should mention this, soulhuntre. It's exactly how the world feels about America. You see, your actions reflect on the rest of the world, not just America.
posted by acrobat at 3:44 AM on October 15, 2004
Funny you should mention this, soulhuntre. It's exactly how the world feels about America. You see, your actions reflect on the rest of the world, not just America.
posted by acrobat at 3:44 AM on October 15, 2004
This idea that somehow just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me.
Didn't know you lived in Iraq Soulhuntre
posted by fullerine at 3:51 AM on October 15, 2004
Didn't know you lived in Iraq Soulhuntre
posted by fullerine at 3:51 AM on October 15, 2004
The Myth of 'Squandered Sympathy'
> If anything America is in the start of a decline..
...said he, hopefully.
posted by jfuller at 4:07 AM on October 15, 2004
> If anything America is in the start of a decline..
...said he, hopefully.
posted by jfuller at 4:07 AM on October 15, 2004
just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me
That special insight is to be able to view a culture from outside the filter of its local assumptions (for instance, the belief that it offers the best possible system of government and can do no wrong internationally).
posted by raygirvan at 4:34 AM on October 15, 2004
That special insight is to be able to view a culture from outside the filter of its local assumptions (for instance, the belief that it offers the best possible system of government and can do no wrong internationally).
posted by raygirvan at 4:34 AM on October 15, 2004
Apropos of nothing, but the author of jfuller's linked article has some rather nice pictures on his website
posted by ar0n at 4:42 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by ar0n at 4:42 AM on October 15, 2004
Since I'm about to leave for work, where mefi is blocked by our netnanny, let me just roundly assert that this "squandered synpathy" notion is a hysterical figment, cherished exclusively by those given to hysterical figments. What actually happened is: Europe, particularly France, was virulently anti-American previous to 9/11, and America barely noticed. For a day or three after 9/11 there was a poof of sympathetic world noise for the 9/11 victims. Thereafter, Europe, particularly France, went back to being virulently anti-American, and America barely notices. Plus ça change ...
posted by jfuller at 5:12 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by jfuller at 5:12 AM on October 15, 2004
This 'hate the govt, love the people' thing is because the world knows America did not elect its current president. If Bush wins the upcoming election, count on what little goodwill we have left to be completely trashed.
srboisvert, it's not just a decline. America learned nothing from the downfall of the USSR, a military-based economy (ala USA). We're the world's largest debtor nation, and not even our nuclear arsenal will save us from economic collapse. Carrying a big stick won't make the world turn a blind eye, and now that we've pissed virtually every country off, the most sympathetic countries are even shaking their heads.
posted by fleener at 5:17 AM on October 15, 2004
srboisvert, it's not just a decline. America learned nothing from the downfall of the USSR, a military-based economy (ala USA). We're the world's largest debtor nation, and not even our nuclear arsenal will save us from economic collapse. Carrying a big stick won't make the world turn a blind eye, and now that we've pissed virtually every country off, the most sympathetic countries are even shaking their heads.
posted by fleener at 5:17 AM on October 15, 2004
jfuller, while I'm also sceptical of this squandered sympathy notion (I think it was more credibility that was wasted with Iraq and other mistakes like Guantanamo Bay), I would point out to you that the world does not consist solely of France and the US, nor Europe and the US.
posted by Onanist at 5:23 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by Onanist at 5:23 AM on October 15, 2004
The idea of internationalism is much stronger outside of the US. As soon as you get above a peasant level understanding of economics one realizes that endeavors in business, politics, and culture have to work with neighboring states and cultures. In Europe, for example, the idea that your little country is going to be able to "go it alone" becomes ridiculous as soon as you hit your tenth birthday.
Back in the US, however, there is a myth that Americans can stand alone without allies and who cares about alliances since "They all watch our Hollywood movies, don't they?"
No they don't. I'm an American living in Europe for fifteen years. The outpouring of sympathy for America after 9/11 was genuine, and surprising, given the generally negative view of the levels of sophistication in American political culture after Bush stole the election. Bush's arrogant and misleading approach to the War on Terror didn't simply squander good will, it evaporated any idea that this administration could govern ethically or efficiently on a national or international level. This view was strengthened when Bush sent Colin Powell and others to lie to the UN. Nobody was surprised that the US went to war in Iraq. But outside of the US it is still legitimate to speculate on the reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism) without having to answer to the Patriot Act.
Nobody likes to be lied to.
posted by zaelic at 5:44 AM on October 15, 2004
Back in the US, however, there is a myth that Americans can stand alone without allies and who cares about alliances since "They all watch our Hollywood movies, don't they?"
No they don't. I'm an American living in Europe for fifteen years. The outpouring of sympathy for America after 9/11 was genuine, and surprising, given the generally negative view of the levels of sophistication in American political culture after Bush stole the election. Bush's arrogant and misleading approach to the War on Terror didn't simply squander good will, it evaporated any idea that this administration could govern ethically or efficiently on a national or international level. This view was strengthened when Bush sent Colin Powell and others to lie to the UN. Nobody was surprised that the US went to war in Iraq. But outside of the US it is still legitimate to speculate on the reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism) without having to answer to the Patriot Act.
Nobody likes to be lied to.
posted by zaelic at 5:44 AM on October 15, 2004
> outside of the US it is still legitimate to speculate on the
> reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism)
> without having to answer to the Patriot Act
:-D
Ok, so just to sum up this thread, the rest of the world opposes Bush because they are smarter and freer than Americans. They're probably nicer people, too.
posted by Turtle at 5:57 AM on October 15, 2004
> reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism)
> without having to answer to the Patriot Act
:-D
Ok, so just to sum up this thread, the rest of the world opposes Bush because they are smarter and freer than Americans. They're probably nicer people, too.
posted by Turtle at 5:57 AM on October 15, 2004
It's not going to be a laughing matter when our debts and trade deficits cripple us, and that support we'll need from our friends and partners just isn't there anymore.
posted by amberglow at 6:06 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by amberglow at 6:06 AM on October 15, 2004
What do they know that Americans don't?
Another interesting question: What do the Russians and Israelis know -- or, rather, believe -- that the rest of the world doesn't?
They're not actually the only ones on our side, in this, so you can expand your field of inquiry to the bulk of "right"-leaning totalitarian regmines throughout the world, starting with Pakistan. What do they "know" that Europeans don't? Perhaps...something to do with power...and cynicism...?
Eh, I haven't had enough coffee yet. My own cynicism needs to be jittered away by a little hot caffeine.
posted by lodurr at 6:10 AM on October 15, 2004
Another interesting question: What do the Russians and Israelis know -- or, rather, believe -- that the rest of the world doesn't?
They're not actually the only ones on our side, in this, so you can expand your field of inquiry to the bulk of "right"-leaning totalitarian regmines throughout the world, starting with Pakistan. What do they "know" that Europeans don't? Perhaps...something to do with power...and cynicism...?
Eh, I haven't had enough coffee yet. My own cynicism needs to be jittered away by a little hot caffeine.
posted by lodurr at 6:10 AM on October 15, 2004
lodurr, what makes you think that, if Pakistan were included in the poll, the results would be favourable to US policies? They asked people, not governments, you know?
posted by acrobat at 6:19 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by acrobat at 6:19 AM on October 15, 2004
While I believe that the US squandered the goodwill of the world after 911, I don't think that the way to make the point is to beat Americans over the head with it. If there's one quality Americans share, it's a negative reaction to any "foreign interference." The more you push, the more we resist (rightly or wrongly).
Looking over the history of the US and its interaction with the world, I'm struck by two things:
1/ We've made a lot of mistakes in the world and pissed off a lot of people.
2/ At least we weren't literal imperialists like Great Britain and France (and the Netherlands, and Portugal, and Spain, and...).
I guess I'd be more impressed with the advice of europeans if they didn't have so much blood on their hands, as well.
posted by jpburns at 6:36 AM on October 15, 2004
Looking over the history of the US and its interaction with the world, I'm struck by two things:
1/ We've made a lot of mistakes in the world and pissed off a lot of people.
2/ At least we weren't literal imperialists like Great Britain and France (and the Netherlands, and Portugal, and Spain, and...).
I guess I'd be more impressed with the advice of europeans if they didn't have so much blood on their hands, as well.
posted by jpburns at 6:36 AM on October 15, 2004
Good and Evil are subjective matters.
Do you really think this?
posted by ed\26h at 6:43 AM on October 15, 2004
Do you really think this?
posted by ed\26h at 6:43 AM on October 15, 2004
(What amberglow said)
and
How anyone can look at the current economic climate, and say we are still being successful, is beyond me. We manufacture next to nothing, we go to war over natural resources, trade is totally imbalanced, government debt is at an all time high, heck, personal debt is at an all time high. In the debates, both candidates said (I'm paraphrasing) that the tax cuts are needed so people can consume more, and get the economy out of this hole.
So the message is: America, ignore the fact that our debt is eventually going to bring us to our knees, go out and spend some more. This is our wise economic plan? Jesus, no matter who we pick, domestically, we are totally screwed!
Of course, I'm still for Kerry, 'cause if Bush gets re-elected, all of that "love America, just hate their government" sentiment is just going to go down the tubes. After that, they're gonna say that we get what we deserve. On top of all of that, more hate is the last thing we need. (Scary, isn't it?)
posted by lilboo at 6:48 AM on October 15, 2004
and
How anyone can look at the current economic climate, and say we are still being successful, is beyond me. We manufacture next to nothing, we go to war over natural resources, trade is totally imbalanced, government debt is at an all time high, heck, personal debt is at an all time high. In the debates, both candidates said (I'm paraphrasing) that the tax cuts are needed so people can consume more, and get the economy out of this hole.
So the message is: America, ignore the fact that our debt is eventually going to bring us to our knees, go out and spend some more. This is our wise economic plan? Jesus, no matter who we pick, domestically, we are totally screwed!
Of course, I'm still for Kerry, 'cause if Bush gets re-elected, all of that "love America, just hate their government" sentiment is just going to go down the tubes. After that, they're gonna say that we get what we deserve. On top of all of that, more hate is the last thing we need. (Scary, isn't it?)
posted by lilboo at 6:48 AM on October 15, 2004
jpburns: Was there something non-literal about the US's presence in the Philippines for most of the first half of the 20th century? Maybe if you hadn't been too busy with Manifest Destiny you could really have had something to be ashamed of.
posted by biffa at 7:02 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by biffa at 7:02 AM on October 15, 2004
What The World Thinks Of THe Us - A Survey Of Ten Countries
The Guardian's Flash interactive feature for the article above. The countries are Canada, France, The United Kingdom, Spain. Russia, Japan, Australia, Mexico and South Korea.
In the Worsened column of Over The Past Two Or Three Years, Has Your Opinion Of The United States Improved Or Worsened,
We have, in order, among others,
Japan 74%,
France 70%,
South Korea 67%,
Mexico 57%
and Australia 54%.
Apart from the possible exception of France--remember Le Monde's post 9/11 declaration We Are All Americans Now, by the way ?--I don't recall the rest to have been notably virulently anti-American.
Interesting: on Bush or Kerry for President, only Russia and Israel favor Bush.
posted by y2karl at 7:07 AM on October 15, 2004
The Guardian's Flash interactive feature for the article above. The countries are Canada, France, The United Kingdom, Spain. Russia, Japan, Australia, Mexico and South Korea.
In the Worsened column of Over The Past Two Or Three Years, Has Your Opinion Of The United States Improved Or Worsened,
We have, in order, among others,
Japan 74%,
France 70%,
South Korea 67%,
Mexico 57%
and Australia 54%.
Apart from the possible exception of France--remember Le Monde's post 9/11 declaration We Are All Americans Now, by the way ?--I don't recall the rest to have been notably virulently anti-American.
Interesting: on Bush or Kerry for President, only Russia and Israel favor Bush.
posted by y2karl at 7:07 AM on October 15, 2004
Good and Evil are subjective matters.
False. Well... at least from a philosophical perspective, Good and Evil are the only concepts that aren't subjective. I think the problem is that those terms or either incorrectly procscribed, or too frequently used.
bulldozing countries spreads terror
On this we agree. 100%
posted by psmealey at 7:23 AM on October 15, 2004
False. Well... at least from a philosophical perspective, Good and Evil are the only concepts that aren't subjective. I think the problem is that those terms or either incorrectly procscribed, or too frequently used.
bulldozing countries spreads terror
On this we agree. 100%
posted by psmealey at 7:23 AM on October 15, 2004
one does not want to kick a dead horse, but jfuller's zombie of an argument needs to be (rhetorically) shot in the head, Resident Evil-style, once again. I'm just sorry I don't look as good as Milla Jovovich. anyway:
jfuller, I won't even mention cultural issues: any moron can notice how all over the world, American musicians, American film directors, American writers (even, sometimes, those who aren't fully appreciated at home like, say, the great Hubert Selby who ended on front pages all over Europe the day after he died) are daily honored and appreciated. let's stick to anti-Americanism in the world regarding politics, because in the cultural field it doesn't exist (insert Jerry Lewis joke here).
the hated (by American wingnuts) Bill Clinton, while traveling, enjoyed a hero's welcome all over world when he was President. just check out old news stories about his worldwide travels.
my parents -- like most Italians their age -- still talk excitedly about JFK's Italian visit, where at the height of the Cold War hundreds of thousands of (obviously America-hating) furriners cheered for the US President's visit in the streets of Rome and -- in a memorable event -- at the Campidoglio, where JFK gave a quick, funny, eloquent speech (with small, elegant Latin quote).
Berlin's Kennedy Platz is named after, you guessed right jfuller, the US President of the same name.
and then, let's see what the hated surrender Frenchies actually think: the damn frogs have even named a very pretty avenue after that most American icon, JFK. and of course Bill Clinton, the President of peace & prosperity & blowjobs for all, remains enormously popular there.
and so forth.
the world likes so many things about your country, jfuller. quite often, we really like your (saner) politicians. we just don't like your dangerous, irresponsible current President. and we have the Iraqi neocon-approved slaughter, the nonexistent wmd's and Abu Ghraib as blood-dripping evidence. the world is ready to cheer a new American President, less hell-bent on blowing up the world for the sake of the Book of Revelation. Kerry doesn't strike foreigners as an Armageddon kind of a guy, that's all. he may even believe -- the horror -- in Evolution. I mean, he looks saner than Bush. more sober, even. not that that's saying much, ok.
I will also remind you, jfuller, that older Europeans know war very well, for personal experience, and they have seen the bombed-out streets of their own cities. millions of people worldwide get a daily taste of war, the same war Lower Manhattan experienced just for a few hours 3 years ago (I won't even mention the nice Central and South mericans who have been dealing with CIA-approved dictators and Langley-style nation-building for the last 55 years).
so please, American wingnuts, don't lecture the world about war and peace. be ashamed, for a change. the world doesn't watch FoxNews and listens to Rush Limbaugh, remember.
posted by matteo at 7:45 AM on October 15, 2004
jfuller, I won't even mention cultural issues: any moron can notice how all over the world, American musicians, American film directors, American writers (even, sometimes, those who aren't fully appreciated at home like, say, the great Hubert Selby who ended on front pages all over Europe the day after he died) are daily honored and appreciated. let's stick to anti-Americanism in the world regarding politics, because in the cultural field it doesn't exist (insert Jerry Lewis joke here).
the hated (by American wingnuts) Bill Clinton, while traveling, enjoyed a hero's welcome all over world when he was President. just check out old news stories about his worldwide travels.
my parents -- like most Italians their age -- still talk excitedly about JFK's Italian visit, where at the height of the Cold War hundreds of thousands of (obviously America-hating) furriners cheered for the US President's visit in the streets of Rome and -- in a memorable event -- at the Campidoglio, where JFK gave a quick, funny, eloquent speech (with small, elegant Latin quote).
Berlin's Kennedy Platz is named after, you guessed right jfuller, the US President of the same name.
and then, let's see what the hated surrender Frenchies actually think: the damn frogs have even named a very pretty avenue after that most American icon, JFK. and of course Bill Clinton, the President of peace & prosperity & blowjobs for all, remains enormously popular there.
and so forth.
the world likes so many things about your country, jfuller. quite often, we really like your (saner) politicians. we just don't like your dangerous, irresponsible current President. and we have the Iraqi neocon-approved slaughter, the nonexistent wmd's and Abu Ghraib as blood-dripping evidence. the world is ready to cheer a new American President, less hell-bent on blowing up the world for the sake of the Book of Revelation. Kerry doesn't strike foreigners as an Armageddon kind of a guy, that's all. he may even believe -- the horror -- in Evolution. I mean, he looks saner than Bush. more sober, even. not that that's saying much, ok.
I will also remind you, jfuller, that older Europeans know war very well, for personal experience, and they have seen the bombed-out streets of their own cities. millions of people worldwide get a daily taste of war, the same war Lower Manhattan experienced just for a few hours 3 years ago (I won't even mention the nice Central and South mericans who have been dealing with CIA-approved dictators and Langley-style nation-building for the last 55 years).
so please, American wingnuts, don't lecture the world about war and peace. be ashamed, for a change. the world doesn't watch FoxNews and listens to Rush Limbaugh, remember.
posted by matteo at 7:45 AM on October 15, 2004
oh, I forgot:
jfuller, do you own an actual passport? it's that little navy-blue book with your picture in it and little stamps for all the places one has visited: Nebraska, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Alabama...
;)
posted by matteo at 7:47 AM on October 15, 2004
jfuller, do you own an actual passport? it's that little navy-blue book with your picture in it and little stamps for all the places one has visited: Nebraska, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Alabama...
;)
posted by matteo at 7:47 AM on October 15, 2004
How anyone can look at the current economic climate, and say we are still being successful, is beyond me. We manufacture next to nothing
Almost nothing.
There are the aircraft, satellites, automobiles, car parts, CPUs, integrated circuits, chip fabs, machine tools, mining equipment, farming equipment, plastics bases, medicines, housing products (doors, windows, bathtubs, etc), construction equipment, and, of course, weapons.
Apart from these minor sectors though, that only contribute a trillion or two dollars to the gdp, yeah, there's no manufacturing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2004
Almost nothing.
There are the aircraft, satellites, automobiles, car parts, CPUs, integrated circuits, chip fabs, machine tools, mining equipment, farming equipment, plastics bases, medicines, housing products (doors, windows, bathtubs, etc), construction equipment, and, of course, weapons.
Apart from these minor sectors though, that only contribute a trillion or two dollars to the gdp, yeah, there's no manufacturing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2004
This idea that somehow just because they don't live here these people have some special insight into how we shoudl act is odd to me
The idea that you live on this earth and can't understand that some actions have global consequences is odd to me. I'll give you a few hints: Acid rain, SARs, ocean pollution, endangering species, A.I.D.s, terrorism, nuclear war, global warming.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:15 AM on October 15, 2004
The idea that you live on this earth and can't understand that some actions have global consequences is odd to me. I'll give you a few hints: Acid rain, SARs, ocean pollution, endangering species, A.I.D.s, terrorism, nuclear war, global warming.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:15 AM on October 15, 2004
I wanted to answer some comments in this thread, but matteo said it a whole lot better.
posted by sebas at 8:15 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by sebas at 8:15 AM on October 15, 2004
Was there something non-literal about the US's presence in the Philippines for most of the first half of the 20th century?
Obviously that falls under the "We've made a lot of mistakes in the world and pissed off a lot of people" part of my posting.
Now I'd be the first to say that my knowledge of history is sketchy at best, but it's my understanding that the US presence in the Philippines was largely due to the US fighting with a European Imperialist power, namely Spain.
The US claimed that it's occupation was to help the people throw off their colonial masters, the Spanish, but I'm willing to admit that they probably had ulterior motives, like wanting a military base in that part of the world and access to the natural resources there. So that's an example of an evil decision by an expansionist administration. How many more can you cite?
My point was, how clean are the European's hands? They exploited colonies for centuries, and oppressed untold numbers of people. The US generally have had nobler aspirations when they become involved in the world...
posted by jpburns at 8:26 AM on October 15, 2004
Obviously that falls under the "We've made a lot of mistakes in the world and pissed off a lot of people" part of my posting.
Now I'd be the first to say that my knowledge of history is sketchy at best, but it's my understanding that the US presence in the Philippines was largely due to the US fighting with a European Imperialist power, namely Spain.
The US claimed that it's occupation was to help the people throw off their colonial masters, the Spanish, but I'm willing to admit that they probably had ulterior motives, like wanting a military base in that part of the world and access to the natural resources there. So that's an example of an evil decision by an expansionist administration. How many more can you cite?
My point was, how clean are the European's hands? They exploited colonies for centuries, and oppressed untold numbers of people. The US generally have had nobler aspirations when they become involved in the world...
posted by jpburns at 8:26 AM on October 15, 2004
(responding to jfuller)
Please, please, please!
Do not confound being against the current administration and being antiamerican.
I am not from the USA, and I am concerned about who's going to be the next president, because it will affect me!
My own and humble opinion is that Bush and his team are really bad for YOUR country and my country.
But please, please, please, that doesn't make antiamerican.
posted by samelborp at 8:33 AM on October 15, 2004
Please, please, please!
Do not confound being against the current administration and being antiamerican.
I am not from the USA, and I am concerned about who's going to be the next president, because it will affect me!
My own and humble opinion is that Bush and his team are really bad for YOUR country and my country.
But please, please, please, that doesn't make antiamerican.
posted by samelborp at 8:33 AM on October 15, 2004
ignore the fact that our debt is eventually going to bring us to our knees
Little side track here.
I asked my Sister-in-Law, my window into the world of the Christian Right, how she was voting, and she said Bush, "Because I don't trust Kerry." When I listed a number of reasons why she should not trust Bush including the massive deficit she replied "I don't understand that."
"Think of it as a huge loan from China, that we will have to start paying back when your son is grown."
"What if we just don't pay it back?"
I explained some of the things that could happen if we defaulted, but to me it was stunning that she could be so dismissive of the situation because she doesn't understand it.
Apparently, if you don't understand something-- it just goes away.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:35 AM on October 15, 2004
Little side track here.
I asked my Sister-in-Law, my window into the world of the Christian Right, how she was voting, and she said Bush, "Because I don't trust Kerry." When I listed a number of reasons why she should not trust Bush including the massive deficit she replied "I don't understand that."
"Think of it as a huge loan from China, that we will have to start paying back when your son is grown."
"What if we just don't pay it back?"
I explained some of the things that could happen if we defaulted, but to me it was stunning that she could be so dismissive of the situation because she doesn't understand it.
Apparently, if you don't understand something-- it just goes away.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:35 AM on October 15, 2004
matteo wins : >
(it is really shameful that we've taken such a wrong turn--hopefully we'll be starting to fix that in the election, and in a Kerry administration.)
posted by amberglow at 8:40 AM on October 15, 2004
(it is really shameful that we've taken such a wrong turn--hopefully we'll be starting to fix that in the election, and in a Kerry administration.)
posted by amberglow at 8:40 AM on October 15, 2004
For the record: I spent this summer driving almost the entire breadth of Canada and back, and I spent a week in London, England, in early September, and anecdotally I can tell you this:
I have never, ever seen the kind of fear and disappointment directed toward an American government that there is toward this one. Never so widespread, never so palpable. Anger or hatred - which would presumably give rise to this hazily defined anti-Americanism I keep hearing about - are actually pretty rare.
What I kept running into was a pervasive sense that America as a state (as opposed to Americans as people) has lost its way in a profound and possibly irrevocable manner, and that this is a source of enormous dread for the world as a whole, given America's primacy and unprecedented power in global affairs.
Americans, of course, are free to completely ignore this strange trend in distant lands and stay the course behind an administration whose foreign policy looks dangerously, pathologically reckless from almost any point of view other than a certain kind of American one. They are free to point out that European colonialism lies deep in the roots of most of the globe's current conflicts, and free to tell Canadians that they'd have essentially no national defence and a decimated economy without American support and partnership. All of this is true, and completely beside the point, which is that nearly all of America's traditional allies are losing faith in it.
[/lecture]
posted by gompa at 8:49 AM on October 15, 2004
I have never, ever seen the kind of fear and disappointment directed toward an American government that there is toward this one. Never so widespread, never so palpable. Anger or hatred - which would presumably give rise to this hazily defined anti-Americanism I keep hearing about - are actually pretty rare.
What I kept running into was a pervasive sense that America as a state (as opposed to Americans as people) has lost its way in a profound and possibly irrevocable manner, and that this is a source of enormous dread for the world as a whole, given America's primacy and unprecedented power in global affairs.
Americans, of course, are free to completely ignore this strange trend in distant lands and stay the course behind an administration whose foreign policy looks dangerously, pathologically reckless from almost any point of view other than a certain kind of American one. They are free to point out that European colonialism lies deep in the roots of most of the globe's current conflicts, and free to tell Canadians that they'd have essentially no national defence and a decimated economy without American support and partnership. All of this is true, and completely beside the point, which is that nearly all of America's traditional allies are losing faith in it.
[/lecture]
posted by gompa at 8:49 AM on October 15, 2004
ROU, OK, maybe our manufacturing is not nothing, but comparatively speaking, you have to agree, it's not what it used to be, and at the current rate, it's not going to get us out of trouble any time soon.
When you have pols from both parties pushing spending over savings, in an already over-spent environment - I'm gonna cal shenanigans.
posted by lilboo at 9:20 AM on October 15, 2004
When you have pols from both parties pushing spending over savings, in an already over-spent environment - I'm gonna cal shenanigans.
posted by lilboo at 9:20 AM on October 15, 2004
How anyone American can not be concerned what other countries think of the USA in the grand scheme of things is beyond me. Seriously.
I am dumbfounded by the lack of humility, humanity and understanding, not to mention the glut of self-confidence and misplaced pride, present in your administration and many of your citizens.
How can you vote for a man who cannot even admit that he's made a single error in 4 years? How can you even consider voting for such a person?
Yes, the rest of the world is afraid, disappointed, and angry--but mostly I think we're baffled. "How can this be?" is easily the question I hear most often from my fellow Canadians. "Do they really *want* that administration?"
Not only did your country have the sympathy of much of the rest of the world after 9/11. You had it after the 2000 elections. What a fucking crime that was! But now, after 4 years of this monster of a human being representing you, it's *possible* (perhaps even probable) that he will again be in power? What is wrong with you people?
Have you forgotten the base fundamental: We reap what we sow. It's that fucking simple.
posted by dobbs at 9:21 AM on October 15, 2004
I am dumbfounded by the lack of humility, humanity and understanding, not to mention the glut of self-confidence and misplaced pride, present in your administration and many of your citizens.
How can you vote for a man who cannot even admit that he's made a single error in 4 years? How can you even consider voting for such a person?
Yes, the rest of the world is afraid, disappointed, and angry--but mostly I think we're baffled. "How can this be?" is easily the question I hear most often from my fellow Canadians. "Do they really *want* that administration?"
Not only did your country have the sympathy of much of the rest of the world after 9/11. You had it after the 2000 elections. What a fucking crime that was! But now, after 4 years of this monster of a human being representing you, it's *possible* (perhaps even probable) that he will again be in power? What is wrong with you people?
Have you forgotten the base fundamental: We reap what we sow. It's that fucking simple.
posted by dobbs at 9:21 AM on October 15, 2004
Dobbs:
You seem to think that populations are some monolithic sorta thing; that they all think alike and are all reasonable human beings. I'm sorry to tell you that they aren't.
Any group of people are composed of artists and consumers, thinkers and luddites, saints and sinners, geniuses and morons, as well as thinking individuals and wastes of genetic material. Unfortunately the bad element doesn't believe in birth control or reasonable consumption, so they're outbreeding the reasonable element. So now we're about 50-50. Next year we'll be 60-40, and it's a slippery slope from there.
Can you tell that I'm depressed? I worry about the US, and what it's becoming, and what that will mean for my 12-year-old daughter. I vote at every election, I voice my opinion, and I try to make a difference, but it's like trying to swim up a waterfall...
posted by jpburns at 9:33 AM on October 15, 2004
You seem to think that populations are some monolithic sorta thing; that they all think alike and are all reasonable human beings. I'm sorry to tell you that they aren't.
Any group of people are composed of artists and consumers, thinkers and luddites, saints and sinners, geniuses and morons, as well as thinking individuals and wastes of genetic material. Unfortunately the bad element doesn't believe in birth control or reasonable consumption, so they're outbreeding the reasonable element. So now we're about 50-50. Next year we'll be 60-40, and it's a slippery slope from there.
Can you tell that I'm depressed? I worry about the US, and what it's becoming, and what that will mean for my 12-year-old daughter. I vote at every election, I voice my opinion, and I try to make a difference, but it's like trying to swim up a waterfall...
posted by jpburns at 9:33 AM on October 15, 2004
Good and Evil are subjective matters. / False. Well... at least from a philosophical perspective, Good and Evil are the only concepts that aren't subjective.
Hmmm, there are plenty of matters you’d be on far safer ground in asserting are not subjective.
Agreed, i should have say "good and evil".
Wouldn’t that mean – Other countries know good and evil but the US doesn’t? If so, what do you mean by that?
posted by ed\26h at 9:49 AM on October 15, 2004
Hmmm, there are plenty of matters you’d be on far safer ground in asserting are not subjective.
Agreed, i should have say "good and evil".
Wouldn’t that mean – Other countries know good and evil but the US doesn’t? If so, what do you mean by that?
posted by ed\26h at 9:49 AM on October 15, 2004
Dobbs, people who are voting for Bush aren't blind to his flaws.
Rather, they see Bush as clearly differentiated, to the better, on the issues they care about, such as taxes, death penalty, terrorism, abortion, secularization, gun rights, etc.
If you subscribe to all, or a majority, of those beliefs, you'll vote for Bush, warts and all. Frankly silly rhetorical moves, like whether or not one "admits" mistakes in a psuedo-debate, are completely immaterial.
I'm authentically curious as to how Americans came to differ from Canadians and Europeans so substantially on these points, but the fact is that rational and principled acts follow from those differences. There's no mystery.
On preview -- jpburns, why is it that the sensitive elite is having so few children? The sensitive elite is much richer than the average Republican, and kids are fun!
posted by MattD at 9:51 AM on October 15, 2004
Rather, they see Bush as clearly differentiated, to the better, on the issues they care about, such as taxes, death penalty, terrorism, abortion, secularization, gun rights, etc.
If you subscribe to all, or a majority, of those beliefs, you'll vote for Bush, warts and all. Frankly silly rhetorical moves, like whether or not one "admits" mistakes in a psuedo-debate, are completely immaterial.
I'm authentically curious as to how Americans came to differ from Canadians and Europeans so substantially on these points, but the fact is that rational and principled acts follow from those differences. There's no mystery.
On preview -- jpburns, why is it that the sensitive elite is having so few children? The sensitive elite is much richer than the average Republican, and kids are fun!
posted by MattD at 9:51 AM on October 15, 2004
I'd like to add a bit more depth to lilboo's thought above. Requoting ROU:
"There are the aircraft, satellites, automobiles, car parts, CPUs, integrated circuits, chip fabs, machine tools, mining equipment, farming equipment, plastics bases, medicines, housing products (doors, windows, bathtubs, etc), construction equipment, and, of course, weapons.
With the exception of plastics bases and medicines, and of things like doors and windows made out of wood products, almost all the other items in that list are assembled here in the US using components manufactured outside this country - most especially automobiles and other power-driven equipment. While engines and other parts machined from high-quality steel are still mostly made here, much of the other components are fabricated and part-assembled elsewhere, and put together here on assembly lines.
As a small example, there are no more domestic manufacturers of bicycle tires. A small thing, I know, but part of the trend.
Also, I'd point out that plastics, medicines, and anything that runs on an internal combustion engine are based on and completely dependent upon the oil economy. We build lots of cars and trucks here because we have oil. That could take a big hit; the "ripple effect" of high oil prices has only just begun here, and though oil prices are cyclical by nature, they're only going to go up from here on out, with worldwide demand getting higher and production capacity only 1% greater than demand at this point.
I have friends in cold-weather states who have only half-filled their heating oil or kerosene tanks, because the price of it is already very very high compared to the last few years. They couldn't afford to fill the tanks right now, and they're hoping that the price will come down by the time they need more. I've told them it's a forlorn hope, but they're holding on to it.
Anyway, the manufacturing base of this country has lessened drastically in the last decade, and the most "vital" parts of it are standing on ground that's getting shakier.
I'm starting to wonder if we're going to have to depend on the rest of the world to rescue us, for a change.
posted by zoogleplex at 9:56 AM on October 15, 2004
"There are the aircraft, satellites, automobiles, car parts, CPUs, integrated circuits, chip fabs, machine tools, mining equipment, farming equipment, plastics bases, medicines, housing products (doors, windows, bathtubs, etc), construction equipment, and, of course, weapons.
With the exception of plastics bases and medicines, and of things like doors and windows made out of wood products, almost all the other items in that list are assembled here in the US using components manufactured outside this country - most especially automobiles and other power-driven equipment. While engines and other parts machined from high-quality steel are still mostly made here, much of the other components are fabricated and part-assembled elsewhere, and put together here on assembly lines.
As a small example, there are no more domestic manufacturers of bicycle tires. A small thing, I know, but part of the trend.
Also, I'd point out that plastics, medicines, and anything that runs on an internal combustion engine are based on and completely dependent upon the oil economy. We build lots of cars and trucks here because we have oil. That could take a big hit; the "ripple effect" of high oil prices has only just begun here, and though oil prices are cyclical by nature, they're only going to go up from here on out, with worldwide demand getting higher and production capacity only 1% greater than demand at this point.
I have friends in cold-weather states who have only half-filled their heating oil or kerosene tanks, because the price of it is already very very high compared to the last few years. They couldn't afford to fill the tanks right now, and they're hoping that the price will come down by the time they need more. I've told them it's a forlorn hope, but they're holding on to it.
Anyway, the manufacturing base of this country has lessened drastically in the last decade, and the most "vital" parts of it are standing on ground that's getting shakier.
I'm starting to wonder if we're going to have to depend on the rest of the world to rescue us, for a change.
posted by zoogleplex at 9:56 AM on October 15, 2004
Oops sorry, I didn't close my quote. ROU's quote is that single paragraph, and I meant to emphasize:
With the exception of plastics bases and medicines, and of things like doors and windows made out of wood products, almost all the other items in that list are assembled here in the US using components manufactured outside this country - most especially automobiles and other power-driven equipment.
And that's my lesson for today in previewing more thoroughly. *chagrin*
posted by zoogleplex at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2004
With the exception of plastics bases and medicines, and of things like doors and windows made out of wood products, almost all the other items in that list are assembled here in the US using components manufactured outside this country - most especially automobiles and other power-driven equipment.
And that's my lesson for today in previewing more thoroughly. *chagrin*
posted by zoogleplex at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2004
On preview -- jpburns, why is it that the sensitive elite is having so few children? The sensitive elite is much richer than the average Republican, and kids are fun!
Is that what group I'm in? If that's the case, why aren't I rolling in the dough?
I'd call myself "upper middle-class" but not rich by any stretch of the imagination. We have some savings and a house, but still worry about paying for our daughter's education.
Why we decided to have one kid is pretty simple. We're both pretty serious people (maybe too serious in my case). We were both so nervous having kids, and so grateful that our one kid turned out so swell, that we didn't want to tempt fate. Also, we felt no huge urge to repopulate the planet, and love having the time and energy to devote to a single kid.
Plus, when she has a sleep-over at a friend's house... free baby-sitting. Woo Hoo!
posted by jpburns at 10:21 AM on October 15, 2004
Is that what group I'm in? If that's the case, why aren't I rolling in the dough?
I'd call myself "upper middle-class" but not rich by any stretch of the imagination. We have some savings and a house, but still worry about paying for our daughter's education.
Why we decided to have one kid is pretty simple. We're both pretty serious people (maybe too serious in my case). We were both so nervous having kids, and so grateful that our one kid turned out so swell, that we didn't want to tempt fate. Also, we felt no huge urge to repopulate the planet, and love having the time and energy to devote to a single kid.
Plus, when she has a sleep-over at a friend's house... free baby-sitting. Woo Hoo!
posted by jpburns at 10:21 AM on October 15, 2004
Europe, particularly France, was virulently anti-American previous to 9/11
Let me just roundly assert that this is complete bullshit.
posted by homunculus at 10:28 AM on October 15, 2004
Let me just roundly assert that this is complete bullshit.
posted by homunculus at 10:28 AM on October 15, 2004
Dobbs, people who are voting for Bush aren't blind to his flaws.
i disagree. ever been to east texas? i think that for many (though by no means all and possibly not even most) bush supporters any "flaws" they do acknowledge are things that differentiate him from the comm'nist, elitist, bible-hating Left: lack of curiousity about the world, reliance on god to guide his decisions, "unpolished" behavior, lack of high falutin' vocabulary and sentence structure, etc.
additonally, i don't recall hearing even the most ardent kerry supporter (and there are some, even though it's oh so uber-cool to proclaim loudly and longly how much you dislike him even though you're voting for him) saying things like they think god hand-picked kerry to lead the nation or that he must be a good person b/c he prays to god.
further, i think that dislike of america supports a belief held by many bush supporters (again, not all and probably not even most) that they're god's chosen people. as god's chosen people, they must be persecuted and hated by those who are not god's people.
i'm also of the opinion that these people tend to think europeans aren't grateful for u.s. efforts during ww2 and the cold war ("if it warn't for the u.s.a., you'd all be speaking german or russian now!"), and this angers them and makes them apathetic about any perceived or real antipathy coming from europe -- or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
further, i think these people also tend to be very much unaware of the history of u.s. foreign policy in the middle east...they probably have never seen the photo of donald rumsfield shaking saddam's hand or if they have, i bet they're suspicious of it. hence, they may think we've always been opposed to saddam and always seen him as a dire threat to the entire world, and that only pres. george w. bush has had the stones to do something about it.
but these are just my observations, guesses, and feelings based on my interactions with bush supporters in real life. i do acknowledge that there are some people who are fully aware of all the things i've claimed significant numbers of bush-backers are unaware of, and who do care about antipathy toward the united states...but are still 110% pro-bush. these ppl are a complete mystery to me.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2004
i disagree. ever been to east texas? i think that for many (though by no means all and possibly not even most) bush supporters any "flaws" they do acknowledge are things that differentiate him from the comm'nist, elitist, bible-hating Left: lack of curiousity about the world, reliance on god to guide his decisions, "unpolished" behavior, lack of high falutin' vocabulary and sentence structure, etc.
additonally, i don't recall hearing even the most ardent kerry supporter (and there are some, even though it's oh so uber-cool to proclaim loudly and longly how much you dislike him even though you're voting for him) saying things like they think god hand-picked kerry to lead the nation or that he must be a good person b/c he prays to god.
further, i think that dislike of america supports a belief held by many bush supporters (again, not all and probably not even most) that they're god's chosen people. as god's chosen people, they must be persecuted and hated by those who are not god's people.
i'm also of the opinion that these people tend to think europeans aren't grateful for u.s. efforts during ww2 and the cold war ("if it warn't for the u.s.a., you'd all be speaking german or russian now!"), and this angers them and makes them apathetic about any perceived or real antipathy coming from europe -- or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
further, i think these people also tend to be very much unaware of the history of u.s. foreign policy in the middle east...they probably have never seen the photo of donald rumsfield shaking saddam's hand or if they have, i bet they're suspicious of it. hence, they may think we've always been opposed to saddam and always seen him as a dire threat to the entire world, and that only pres. george w. bush has had the stones to do something about it.
but these are just my observations, guesses, and feelings based on my interactions with bush supporters in real life. i do acknowledge that there are some people who are fully aware of all the things i've claimed significant numbers of bush-backers are unaware of, and who do care about antipathy toward the united states...but are still 110% pro-bush. these ppl are a complete mystery to me.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2004
Gulliver’s travails: The U.S. in the post-Cold-War world
Towards the close of the twentieth century a metaphor entered circulation that compared the United States to Lemuel Gulliver at the start of his visit to Lilliput...
posted by dhoyt at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2004
Towards the close of the twentieth century a metaphor entered circulation that compared the United States to Lemuel Gulliver at the start of his visit to Lilliput...
posted by dhoyt at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2004
Acrobat: They asked people, not governments, you know?
Good point. I was indeed thinking of the gov'ts, not the people, w.r.t. Pakistan (and Indonesia. Malaysia, and the Phillipines).
posted by lodurr at 10:45 AM on October 15, 2004
Good point. I was indeed thinking of the gov'ts, not the people, w.r.t. Pakistan (and Indonesia. Malaysia, and the Phillipines).
posted by lodurr at 10:45 AM on October 15, 2004
Now I'd be the first to say that my knowledge of history is sketchy at best, but it's my understanding that the US presence in the Philippines was largely due to the US fighting with a European Imperialist power, namely Spain.
That's pretty shaky, the war with Spain ended in 1899, the US Government then refused to recognise the new republic and ended up staying in charge until 1946 when it finally granted independence (roughly at the same time the other Western powers were giving up their colonies).
So that's an example of an evil decision by an expansionist administration. How many more can you cite?
Well, you were very late coming to the imperial game (and indeed to being a world power) so there wasn't a lot left to grab. The expansion to take over as much of the North American continent as you could was hardly bloodless was it?
Now of course, nations generally tend not to have colonies in the old sense, but there are plenty of examples where the US has had no problem with paying for its interests in others people's blood.
posted by biffa at 10:47 AM on October 15, 2004
That's pretty shaky, the war with Spain ended in 1899, the US Government then refused to recognise the new republic and ended up staying in charge until 1946 when it finally granted independence (roughly at the same time the other Western powers were giving up their colonies).
So that's an example of an evil decision by an expansionist administration. How many more can you cite?
Well, you were very late coming to the imperial game (and indeed to being a world power) so there wasn't a lot left to grab. The expansion to take over as much of the North American continent as you could was hardly bloodless was it?
Now of course, nations generally tend not to have colonies in the old sense, but there are plenty of examples where the US has had no problem with paying for its interests in others people's blood.
posted by biffa at 10:47 AM on October 15, 2004
at least from a philosophical perspective, Good and Evil are the only concepts that aren't subjective.
I have no idea what you would mean by that. "Good" and "evil" are terms, defined within the context of a culture and a society, and to say that they're "philosophically objective" is utter nonsense.
There almost certainly are moral concepts that are universal. But to say that "Good" and "Evil" as labels somehow universally identify those concepts is quite, quite absurd.
posted by lodurr at 10:51 AM on October 15, 2004
I have no idea what you would mean by that. "Good" and "evil" are terms, defined within the context of a culture and a society, and to say that they're "philosophically objective" is utter nonsense.
There almost certainly are moral concepts that are universal. But to say that "Good" and "Evil" as labels somehow universally identify those concepts is quite, quite absurd.
posted by lodurr at 10:51 AM on October 15, 2004
Oops, didn't want to turn this into a semiotics debate. I was definitely not saying there are universal goods and universal evils that correspond to certain ethical constructs. Just from the purely metaphysical (as in Kant, not New Ageism) point that "good" and "evil" are the only two concepts that have any meaning at all. They are abstract objectives (the highest good, for example, virtue, if you will which in the act of its attainment one can realize happiness, etc), but have real meanings in these terms. Words like "chair", "bread", "need" etc. only have meanings relative to what they signify in the minds of those the speak them.
Sorry, it was a joke only I understood.
/me promises not to hit the bong quite so early in the day.
posted by psmealey at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2004
Sorry, it was a joke only I understood.
/me promises not to hit the bong quite so early in the day.
posted by psmealey at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2004
I think we should be asking what do Americans know that the rest of the world doesn't?
posted by MrAnonymous at 11:10 AM on October 15, 2004
posted by MrAnonymous at 11:10 AM on October 15, 2004
OK, so to summarize again: "Why do they hate us? Because we are such political idiots." Many people here seem to be saying Americans should vote Bush out of power because a majority of people from other countries don't like him, and Americans may need other countries to like them more, because they're such f***-ups. Of course, if the country as a whole followed this advice, it would be an act of selflessness or cowardice unprecedented in world history, as far as I know.
I live in France, so I'm an expert and I expect you to believe everything I say. People despise Bush here. People kinda feel an instinctive revulsion whenever the word "américain" is mentioned. This attitude goes a long way back, but it got worse after 9/11. After 9/11, I say, not after the US invaded Afghanistan or Iraq, though it just kept getting worse and worse with all the bad things America kept doing. Of course they also love American movies, and clothes, and music, and literature. But they hate them too. It's *complicated* OK?
What do the French know that Americans don't? Well, they learned that violence is bad, and that bombing Third World countries doesn't necessarily get you where you want to be. They like their own political system OK, they're proud of their traditions, and they wish America was more like them, and didn't do all this crazy death penalty/guns/no health care stuff. So Kerry seems more like their kind of guy. It's kind of like, "what do New Yorkers and Californians know that Americans still don't know." Except French people don't really understand a lot of American stuff. Oh, they also wish they were more powerful in every domain, and therefore wish America were less powerful, believe it or not.
So relax guys. Most of the rest of the world has been wrong about politics most of the time. Americans should take good ideas from other countries whenever possible, but when it's time to vote for a President, don't worry too much what people in other countries think.
posted by Turtle at 11:45 AM on October 15, 2004
I live in France, so I'm an expert and I expect you to believe everything I say. People despise Bush here. People kinda feel an instinctive revulsion whenever the word "américain" is mentioned. This attitude goes a long way back, but it got worse after 9/11. After 9/11, I say, not after the US invaded Afghanistan or Iraq, though it just kept getting worse and worse with all the bad things America kept doing. Of course they also love American movies, and clothes, and music, and literature. But they hate them too. It's *complicated* OK?
What do the French know that Americans don't? Well, they learned that violence is bad, and that bombing Third World countries doesn't necessarily get you where you want to be. They like their own political system OK, they're proud of their traditions, and they wish America was more like them, and didn't do all this crazy death penalty/guns/no health care stuff. So Kerry seems more like their kind of guy. It's kind of like, "what do New Yorkers and Californians know that Americans still don't know." Except French people don't really understand a lot of American stuff. Oh, they also wish they were more powerful in every domain, and therefore wish America were less powerful, believe it or not.
So relax guys. Most of the rest of the world has been wrong about politics most of the time. Americans should take good ideas from other countries whenever possible, but when it's time to vote for a President, don't worry too much what people in other countries think.
posted by Turtle at 11:45 AM on October 15, 2004
It's not "what" the world knows that Americans don't, it's "who." The United States is a huge country, and there's this large swath in the middle that practically thinks the East and West Coasts are other nations, because they never even see THEM aside from on TV or a vacation, let alone a foreigner. They don't know you, they rarely are affected by you, so they don't understand or care about you. Out of sight, out of mind.
There's no mystery to this, just grab a map and look at voting patterns. Big cities and major universites where there's cultural diversity almost always tend toward the blue, and everywhere else goes red. The rest of the world "gets it" because they have no choice but to deal with each other every day. A lot of America doesn't.
posted by frallyth at 11:58 AM on October 15, 2004
There's no mystery to this, just grab a map and look at voting patterns. Big cities and major universites where there's cultural diversity almost always tend toward the blue, and everywhere else goes red. The rest of the world "gets it" because they have no choice but to deal with each other every day. A lot of America doesn't.
posted by frallyth at 11:58 AM on October 15, 2004
Exactly. That's why a lot of people in big cities in Europe "got" that communism was a good idea, and why peasants in flyover country (or in Russia or China) didn't get it. It's who you know, people!
posted by Turtle at 12:12 PM on October 15, 2004
posted by Turtle at 12:12 PM on October 15, 2004
Except for Israel and Russia (!) the rest of the countries polled are pissed off with Bush...
You forgot about Poland (and Kenya)!
posted by euphorb at 12:35 PM on October 15, 2004
You forgot about Poland (and Kenya)!
posted by euphorb at 12:35 PM on October 15, 2004
That Pew Center data is over a year old. Here's a somewhat more recent report, which however unaccountably fails to mention Poland or Kenya. Spoiler: not good. And this was before Abu Ghraib.
I find polls on what other countries about the US fascinating, not for what they say about the US, but for what they say about each country.
So what does Morocco know about Christians (bottom) that Americans still don't? ("Questions not permitted in Jordan", heh). What do Pakistanis know about Bin Laden? Etc.
posted by Turtle at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2004
I find polls on what other countries about the US fascinating, not for what they say about the US, but for what they say about each country.
So what does Morocco know about Christians (bottom) that Americans still don't? ("Questions not permitted in Jordan", heh). What do Pakistanis know about Bin Laden? Etc.
posted by Turtle at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2004
".....wastes of genetic material." - jpburns, say what ?
Turtle - you're a sleeper, eh?
posted by troutfishing at 8:17 PM on October 15, 2004
Turtle - you're a sleeper, eh?
posted by troutfishing at 8:17 PM on October 15, 2004
Oops, didn't want to turn this into a semiotics debate.
Um, not to be a nitpicking weenis, but I think you meant semantics here.
posted by Eekacat at 11:17 PM on October 15, 2004
Um, not to be a nitpicking weenis, but I think you meant semantics here.
posted by Eekacat at 11:17 PM on October 15, 2004
".....wastes of genetic material." - jpburns, say what ?
I was comparing and contrasting a series of opposites. The line was "... as well as thinking individuals and wastes of genetic material. " In my opinion, if one isn't a thinking individual, then they're a waste of genetic material. Thinking is what distinguishes us from the lower animals. Give that up, and one is a waste of human material.
Seems pretty clear, to me. Need any further clarification?
posted by jpburns at 6:13 AM on October 16, 2004
I was comparing and contrasting a series of opposites. The line was "... as well as thinking individuals and wastes of genetic material. " In my opinion, if one isn't a thinking individual, then they're a waste of genetic material. Thinking is what distinguishes us from the lower animals. Give that up, and one is a waste of human material.
Seems pretty clear, to me. Need any further clarification?
posted by jpburns at 6:13 AM on October 16, 2004
jpburns - I'm sensitized to the subject because I used to work with the retarded, and I've also been reading a bit about the resurgence of Eugenics in America....with which George W. Bush has more than a passing association (he's cited Manhattan Insititute writers as his most important ideological influence) - I was intrigued to discover recently.
"....one can in fact trace a direct historical lineage from American Nazi, and Neo-Nazi ideology of the 1930's - as well as related eugenicist movements stemming from discredited theories racial-superiority - to the ongoing projects and concerns of the Pioneer Fund and the Manhattan Institute.
" (from the post linked above - scroll through thread discussion for more supporting material)
posted by troutfishing at 7:27 AM on October 16, 2004
"....one can in fact trace a direct historical lineage from American Nazi, and Neo-Nazi ideology of the 1930's - as well as related eugenicist movements stemming from discredited theories racial-superiority - to the ongoing projects and concerns of the Pioneer Fund and the Manhattan Institute.
" (from the post linked above - scroll through thread discussion for more supporting material)
posted by troutfishing at 7:27 AM on October 16, 2004
The thing I've found about eugenics is that those proposing such a test should really fail, given what cretins such folks really are...
I do, however, believe that there are some folks walking the earth that are a waste of genetic material, mainly, the stubbornly, willfully stupid.
"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who probably read the news themselves."
George W. Bush - 2003, talking about newspapers...
posted by jpburns at 9:55 AM on October 16, 2004
I do, however, believe that there are some folks walking the earth that are a waste of genetic material, mainly, the stubbornly, willfully stupid.
"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who probably read the news themselves."
George W. Bush - 2003, talking about newspapers...
posted by jpburns at 9:55 AM on October 16, 2004
"> outside of the US it is still legitimate to speculate on the
> reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism)
> without having to answer to the Patriot Act"
Yeah, because everytime anyone on MeFi says anything against the government it gets shut down. Nope, no free speech here. Thats why MeFi is so boringly pro-US and pro-Bush.
Hmmm.. maybe the FBI forces MeFi to use Coldfusion so they have a ready made excuse when it goes down so they can scrub the comments free of criticism.
posted by soulhuntre at 1:01 AM on October 18, 2004
> reasons (oil, imperialism, Neo-Christian fundamentalism)
> without having to answer to the Patriot Act"
Yeah, because everytime anyone on MeFi says anything against the government it gets shut down. Nope, no free speech here. Thats why MeFi is so boringly pro-US and pro-Bush.
Hmmm.. maybe the FBI forces MeFi to use Coldfusion so they have a ready made excuse when it goes down so they can scrub the comments free of criticism.
posted by soulhuntre at 1:01 AM on October 18, 2004
I have no idea what you would mean by that. "Good" and "evil" are terms, defined within the context of a culture and a society, and to say that they're "philosophically objective" is utter nonsense. There almost certainly are moral concepts that are universal. But to say that "Good" and "Evil" as labels somehow universally identify those concepts is quite, quite absurd.
I don’t think that is what was meant – obviously I could label the colour green as “evil” and since this is obviously preposterous, it shows that the idea that something being labelled as evil means that it is evil, to be false. But what is really meant is that there are acts which are evil for anyone to undertake, and acts which are good for anyone to undertake irrespective of their customs or society; or what actions they, individually or culturally label as good or evil. And in this sense, they are objective concepts.
posted by ed\26h at 2:09 AM on October 19, 2004
I don’t think that is what was meant – obviously I could label the colour green as “evil” and since this is obviously preposterous, it shows that the idea that something being labelled as evil means that it is evil, to be false. But what is really meant is that there are acts which are evil for anyone to undertake, and acts which are good for anyone to undertake irrespective of their customs or society; or what actions they, individually or culturally label as good or evil. And in this sense, they are objective concepts.
posted by ed\26h at 2:09 AM on October 19, 2004
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posted by Turtle at 2:52 AM on October 15, 2004