Comments on: Pirates and Emperors

Pirates and Emperors

fleener — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:40:57 -0800

Pirates and Emperors is the story of America's funding of terrorists (freedom fighters) put to music and animation, ala Schoolhouse Rock. It's a simple civics lesson that even elementary school kids, and our nation's highest leader, can understand. (link via BoingBoing)

By: maniactown

maniactown — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:56:09 -0800

[This is good.]

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 06:58:17 -0800

What a load of total shite.

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:07:36 -0800

It's no "Bush Killed Superman". But it's close.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:14:40 -0800

What a load of total shite. Care to share what's shite?

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:20:00 -0800

What the term means or what I was referring to?

By: ao4047

ao4047 — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:22:05 -0800

What you were referring to.

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:25:54 -0800

Do you have two accounts? - The video linked in the post.

By: fleener

fleener — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:37 -0800

I know, I know, the truth hurts. Better to just call it shite and forget about it.

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:30:30 -0800

Well, I don't accept it to be the truth. And even if it were, that doesn't prevent it from being shite.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:31:47 -0800

sorry - what's shite about the link ie. in what respect do you feel that the video is shite? Is it the animation or the content? If it's the animation, why? I think it's pretty good. If it's the content, why? Pretty spot on I would say. and no, I don't have two accounts. ao4047 just stated the obvious.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:33:16 -0800

Well, I don't accept it to be the truth. What's your truth then?

By: ao4047

ao4047 — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:41:47 -0800

Yep. As said above, what parts of the toon do you disagree with? Where do you think events are historically inaccurate?

By: fleener

fleener — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:42:35 -0800

Yes, what's your version of history? Everything in that video is plain as day accepted by historians. The only question is whether you define the people the CIA funded as "terrorists" or "freedom fighters." Depends on which end of the guns and blades you're speaking from, I suppose.

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:46:18 -0800

No, I don't think it was badly made or animated – I'm not sure I could identify exactly why I thought it was shite, which is basically an elaborate way of saying I didn't like it. Something to do with the fact is slightly "propagandarous" and I found it quite smug. Where do you think events are historically inaccurate? It's not the premises I necessarily disagree with, just whether the conclusion actually follows. What's your truth then? How do you mean? I don't believe that truth is relative if that's what you're asking.

By: fleener

fleener — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:01:27 -0800

OK, so if you agree with the facts presented, what is it about the conclusion do you disagree with?

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:07:41 -0800

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:22:47 -0800

Well, the reason I don't accept the conclusion is because it doesn't follow from the premises. While I understand this is simply a "bit of fun" I don't think it would be wise to accept it as a valid argument – but anyway, we seem to be digressing somewhat. I was asked why I called it shite, it's because I really dislike things like this, even if they were to "work" in a logical sense.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:38:11 -0800

I was asked why I called it shite, it's because I really dislike things like this, even if they were to "work" in a logical sense. Cheers, that's the answer i was looking for. Bias and propaganda are everywhere and in everything. Nothing is impartial - it is all shite. But, saying that, the whole pirates analogy is something I think people should look at more. History does repeat. We are creatures of habit - up to the same old tricks again. Nice if you are part of the Empire but horrible if you are a pirate, terrorist etc...

By: rushmc

rushmc — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:49:00 -0800

While I understand this is simply a "bit of fun" I hardly think the intent behind producing this was to have "a bit of fun."

By: chrid

chrid — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:58:37 -0800

Waiter, this thread is horrible. Please send it back to the kitchen.

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:00:35 -0800

Twisted: No problem. But you should probably now ask manictown. Rush: Niggah please.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:16:50 -0800

who or what is manictown?

By: ed\26h

ed\26h — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:26:29 -0800

[This is good.] posted by maniactown at 6:56 AM PST on October 15

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:53:12 -0800

Slightly long and preachy, but the animation is really outstanding in the amount of detail and creativity shown. Most of these Schoolhouse Rock sendups are absolutely molar-grindingly painful to watch, but this has tons of marvelous details: the dot matrix printer cranking out US Government payroll checks for Manuel Noriega and Saddam Hussein, the red-white-and-blue television "framing" death squads as freedom fighters, and much more. A very professional piece of work. More heavy-handed and a good deal less satirically biting and effective than the original Simpsons 'Constitutional Amendment' parody, but technically and creatively damn fine. Of course, reposting from boingboing is almost always an easy way to get a good post, it's been prefiltered as it were.

By: homunculus

homunculus — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:46:57 -0800

Good link! Thanks, fleener.

By: rafter

rafter — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:18:24 -0800

I thought this was excellent. For the animation and music if nothing else. The animation, in particular, is really excellent and creative (the media filter of the all-American TV, the bars that spell "law," the Abu Gharib sign).

By: freebird

freebird — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:32:23 -0800

Meh. I actually agree with the larger point, and thought the animation was pretty well done. But I have to agree that it doesn't really work, and I'll give some specifics as to why. I agree the that the role played by America in Nicaragua is shameful, but I think it's an oversimplification to claim it's the *same* role suggested in the immediately preceding Pirate/Emperor bit. Namely it's *not* a direct application of force to gain physical goods or territory. Not that you can't make a connection, but to claim they're identical historical roles denies that power and force have evolved over historical time, which I see as a disservice to those who would understand and learn from history. Similarly with our (also shameful) relations with Hussein, Noreiega, etc. Enough of that. I'm only disappointed because the very beginning, when they just stuck with the Pirates/Emperors deal, was great. I just thought they lost their way in trying to wax didactic about American foreign policy. The anti-duck bit was great though.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:59:17 -0800

I loved it--very well done, and clearly explained. (and adorable, of course) I think it's more about us using our might than about how we did it--the end results are the same, no? Which ties into the whole pirate-emperor thing.

By: freebird

freebird — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:35:36 -0800

it's more about us using our might than about how we did it--the end results are the same, no? I'd say no, though it's certainly a subtle issue. But I'd argue we don't use *our* might in the situations discussed, we used *other people's* might. And sure, we used our economic might to get them to use their physical might, but we're already (at least) two step removed from the Piracy it starts with: we're talking about political/economic power rather than physical, and we're talking about proxy vs. direct violence. I think these are meaningful distinctions. Yes, there are some end results that are the same - someone get's oppressed/killed/robbed, we perhaps are "corrupted". But to claim that the means by which this occurs is - I think - dangerously simplistic. It lends emphasis to the Ends over the Means, a favorite trick of Bad Guys throughout the ages. So, it being "about us using our might" instead of "how we did it" is essentially saying "we did some bad stuff, pirates did some bad stuff, therefore we are similar to Pirates". Arguably true, but I think less useful and interesting than looking at how power and its uses evolve. I'm splitting hairs I know. Like I said I realize these aren't clear-cut issues, and I liked the animation itself. I actually am just trolling to get someone to attack my use of the the word "evolve" in relation to historical power.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:52:56 -0800

I actually am just trolling to get someone to attack my use of the the word "evolve" in relation to historical power. well, keep it up, then. : >

By: freebird

freebird — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:28:08 -0800

Youse guys is no fun. You don't want to argue about using the concept of evolution in relation to political history, you don't want to discuss the extent to which the means and context of power define it, what the hell do you all do for fun on a friday night?

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:33:29 -0800

watch Jon Stewart on Crossfire? ; >

By: freebird

freebird — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:52:15 -0800

If I wear a bowtie will you play? Hey - I'm bad for America! I'm a dick on anyone's show!

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:56:53 -0800

lol! (you're right, and make good points, but it's been a long week, and very grey, blah day here, so i for one, only have brainpower left to link stuff at most, and type smileys)