What happened to her should not happen to any American citizen
October 22, 2004 6:50 AM Subscribe
Red Sox "Nation" After the Boston police take full responsibility for the killing of a student at the ALCS celebrations on Wedensday night/Thrusday morning, the Mayor takes aim at thugs and threatens bans on alcohol sales, bars showing the series in the city, and expulsion of students. The city wants more police presence at the World Series. Many news reports refer to mayhem and riots, but "video footage from the scene showed large crowds but no sign of rioting." Is this the face of the new Sox?
It's not mentioned what product the Boston police are using, but one product claims impact velocities similar to paintballs. Most of the paintball places I'm aware of require you to sign a waiver (example) and to wear protective gear. The crowd wasn't given the chance to do either. Isn't there a better way to disperse an unruly crowd?
posted by tommasz at 7:04 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by tommasz at 7:04 AM on October 22, 2004
this article talks about the "non-lethal" weapon used. and I would categorize the crowd as rowdy, not unruly.
posted by grimley at 7:11 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by grimley at 7:11 AM on October 22, 2004
It says the crowd was throwing bottles at the police. That's not exactly a safe, peaceful situation.
I think the bigger problem is that a "non-lethal projectile" killed someone.
posted by smackfu at 7:12 AM on October 22, 2004
I think the bigger problem is that a "non-lethal projectile" killed someone.
posted by smackfu at 7:12 AM on October 22, 2004
This is completely unbelievable--I can't imagine I'm the only one who finds Kathleen O'Toole and Menino's rhetoric completely abhorrent? "I'm sure there will be a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking -- and rightfully so," said O'Toole...."That 1 percent of thugs caused the problem that forced us to take the less-lethal measures, and obviously this horrible tragedy resulted" [said Menino]
Completely unbelievable--obviously these measures were _not_ "less-lethal," and obviously there ought to be a change of equipment and tactics, not "Monday morning quarterbacking." And as though the police are supposed to, somehow, use lethal force by default to quell demonstrations. Unbelievable.
It seems clear from the article that the crowd had to be broken up somehow, regardless of whether they were unruly, rowdy, or whatever--but how the cops and mayor can deny the obvious fact that their 'less than lethal' weapons aren't safe, and pin the blame on the crowd, is beyond me. Why not just say that something had to be done, but that obviously the police do not have the right equipment to do it? It's not as though the cop who shot the pepper spray _wanted_ to kill an innocent bystander; but it is definitely a failure on the part of the police to have authorized that kind of equipment and declared it non-lethal. Clearly, it is totally unacceptable for kids to set cars on fire because of a baseball game; clearly it is just as unacceptable to fire lethal weapons into a crowd. Real leaders need to speak plainly and tell the truth, not hide behind equivocations and rhetoric like these two.
This kind of double-speak just seems needless, and makes me want to throw up.
posted by josh at 7:15 AM on October 22, 2004
Completely unbelievable--obviously these measures were _not_ "less-lethal," and obviously there ought to be a change of equipment and tactics, not "Monday morning quarterbacking." And as though the police are supposed to, somehow, use lethal force by default to quell demonstrations. Unbelievable.
It seems clear from the article that the crowd had to be broken up somehow, regardless of whether they were unruly, rowdy, or whatever--but how the cops and mayor can deny the obvious fact that their 'less than lethal' weapons aren't safe, and pin the blame on the crowd, is beyond me. Why not just say that something had to be done, but that obviously the police do not have the right equipment to do it? It's not as though the cop who shot the pepper spray _wanted_ to kill an innocent bystander; but it is definitely a failure on the part of the police to have authorized that kind of equipment and declared it non-lethal. Clearly, it is totally unacceptable for kids to set cars on fire because of a baseball game; clearly it is just as unacceptable to fire lethal weapons into a crowd. Real leaders need to speak plainly and tell the truth, not hide behind equivocations and rhetoric like these two.
This kind of double-speak just seems needless, and makes me want to throw up.
posted by josh at 7:15 AM on October 22, 2004
Yes, once again it's those evil jack-booted police trying to keep those innocent, peaceful fans from Having a bit of harmless fun.
posted by bondcliff at 7:19 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by bondcliff at 7:19 AM on October 22, 2004
I'm not claiming the police were unjustified in breaking up the crowds, since it's obvious that at least some of them were out of hand. I am questioning the use of the pepper spray projectile weapon and in particular its characterization as a "non-lethal" (and perhaps by implication, "safe") weapon for use on human beings.
posted by tommasz at 7:25 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by tommasz at 7:25 AM on October 22, 2004
Actually what I heard this morning is that the kid was killed when she was struck in the face by a tear gas canister which was fired into the middle of a crowd.
Mind you in this, as in many other such situations, it's sometimes difficult to know exactly what happened. It just doesn't seem that a beanbag, because of its structure, could kill someone, but then I might be wrong.
posted by clevershark at 7:27 AM on October 22, 2004
Mind you in this, as in many other such situations, it's sometimes difficult to know exactly what happened. It just doesn't seem that a beanbag, because of its structure, could kill someone, but then I might be wrong.
posted by clevershark at 7:27 AM on October 22, 2004
an articulate and thoughtful sox fan speaks out against the vandal/hooligan impulses a few rowdy sox fans seem to put forth.
just, you know, for a perspective from the other side.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:29 AM on October 22, 2004
just, you know, for a perspective from the other side.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:29 AM on October 22, 2004
yes, bondcliff, that warrants shooting into a crowd of people cheering. I did see the video on NECN of people try to tear a tree down - i mean who celebrates by tearing trees out of the ground? - and think that they are complete idiots. but is this the correct response to a bottle being thrown:
"Leif Anderson, 25, of East Boston, corroborated that account. From atop a nearby parking garage, he said he saw the same officer, from 20 feet away, fire at Snelgrove moments after the bottle crashed near the mounted officer.
"He turned around and immediately fired his gun leveled at head level," Anderson said. "He fired two rounds in extremely quick succession, and the girl immediately dropped. All her friends were around her. They were screaming. And people got very angry at that point." emphasis mine.
XQUZYPHYR, this incident occurred because of the Superbowl incident, and the perceived need to have more police presence and better "crowd control" techniques. O'Toole became supervisor after that incident.
posted by grimley at 7:31 AM on October 22, 2004
"Leif Anderson, 25, of East Boston, corroborated that account. From atop a nearby parking garage, he said he saw the same officer, from 20 feet away, fire at Snelgrove moments after the bottle crashed near the mounted officer.
"He turned around and immediately fired his gun leveled at head level," Anderson said. "He fired two rounds in extremely quick succession, and the girl immediately dropped. All her friends were around her. They were screaming. And people got very angry at that point." emphasis mine.
XQUZYPHYR, this incident occurred because of the Superbowl incident, and the perceived need to have more police presence and better "crowd control" techniques. O'Toole became supervisor after that incident.
posted by grimley at 7:31 AM on October 22, 2004
This is why you can't have nice things (like World Series titles)!
posted by mkultra at 7:42 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by mkultra at 7:42 AM on October 22, 2004
That's the problem with "less than lethal" weapons: you're putting them in the hands of people that you then send into an incredibly tense situation. A hammer is a less than lethal weapon when used properly, but you can do a fair bit of damage with it. Just like when riot police aim for the heart with a rubber bullet.
posted by yerfatma at 7:47 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by yerfatma at 7:47 AM on October 22, 2004
ban of alcohol sales on the day of a huge soccer game -- if security is a concern -- is nothing new in Europe. shit happens anyway
posted by matteo at 7:47 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by matteo at 7:47 AM on October 22, 2004
The "non-lethal" weapon they're discussing seems to be some sort of pellet filled with pepper spray -- I am fairly certain that these are not meant to be fired "at head level", but rather at the torso of the intended target (causing bruising and also covering the target in pepper spray so that they are easier to arrest).
It sounds like this death was a result of not only potential equipment problems, but inappropriate usage on the part of the officer. And although I'm sure the bottle startled the horse that the Mounted officer was riding, Mounted Patrol horses are heavily trained for police work and not terribly easy to panic. (My dad rode on a local mounted patrol, and parts of their training even included setting fire crackers off under the horse! The horses might shift or prance a bit, but for the most part, they just stood there, trusting their riders.) Seems to me that this guy over reacted, and then fired his non-lethal weapon in a way that he probably shouldn't have. But, with so few actual facts, it's hard to know for certain.
posted by dryad at 7:54 AM on October 22, 2004
It sounds like this death was a result of not only potential equipment problems, but inappropriate usage on the part of the officer. And although I'm sure the bottle startled the horse that the Mounted officer was riding, Mounted Patrol horses are heavily trained for police work and not terribly easy to panic. (My dad rode on a local mounted patrol, and parts of their training even included setting fire crackers off under the horse! The horses might shift or prance a bit, but for the most part, they just stood there, trusting their riders.) Seems to me that this guy over reacted, and then fired his non-lethal weapon in a way that he probably shouldn't have. But, with so few actual facts, it's hard to know for certain.
posted by dryad at 7:54 AM on October 22, 2004
I have scars on my ass and thighs from getting hit by these balls during Seattle's WTO celebrations.
As I recall, the operating procedure the cops are supposed to follow involves, roughly, firing at the ground in front of the section of crowd they are seeking to move. This bounces the artillery into the people, leading to everyone running away.
I can't recall specifically if the small pellets have to be used this way, but the larger rounds are. The pellets that pelted me were about a centimeter in diameter and made of a hard black plastic. As I recall these pellets were used as rounds and also delivered inside flash-bang type grenades called "stinger balls" that also contained tear gas.
As for knowing if the police were shooting at the ground, well, I was running the hell away at the time. I can say my welts and scars are all below my waist.
posted by mwhybark at 8:07 AM on October 22, 2004
As I recall, the operating procedure the cops are supposed to follow involves, roughly, firing at the ground in front of the section of crowd they are seeking to move. This bounces the artillery into the people, leading to everyone running away.
I can't recall specifically if the small pellets have to be used this way, but the larger rounds are. The pellets that pelted me were about a centimeter in diameter and made of a hard black plastic. As I recall these pellets were used as rounds and also delivered inside flash-bang type grenades called "stinger balls" that also contained tear gas.
As for knowing if the police were shooting at the ground, well, I was running the hell away at the time. I can say my welts and scars are all below my waist.
posted by mwhybark at 8:07 AM on October 22, 2004
"Our product saves lives," Andrews said. He said his company's product has never been known to cause a serious injury and does not have enough energy to pierce the skin or eyeball. "The best way to describe it is like a paintball but travels a little bit quicker and delivers pepper."
Well, my skin sure was broken, through a tweed overcoat and khakis and boxers. All the clothing was holed as well.
posted by mwhybark at 8:13 AM on October 22, 2004
Well, my skin sure was broken, through a tweed overcoat and khakis and boxers. All the clothing was holed as well.
posted by mwhybark at 8:13 AM on October 22, 2004
I son't blame the cops, nor the crowd, specifically...but WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE, in general?
posted by notsnot at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by notsnot at 8:19 AM on October 22, 2004
Most of the paintball places I'm aware of require you to sign a waiver (example) and to wear protective gear.
more specifically, goggles. this is horrible.
i can only hope that something good comes of it, like they stop using those pepper bullets.
I son't blame the cops, nor the crowd, specifically...but WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE, in general?
there's nothing wrong with people. i blame the cops, and the people who promote their actions (yes, that's any of us who pay their taxes). it seems simple to me.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:41 AM on October 22, 2004
more specifically, goggles. this is horrible.
i can only hope that something good comes of it, like they stop using those pepper bullets.
I son't blame the cops, nor the crowd, specifically...but WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE, in general?
there's nothing wrong with people. i blame the cops, and the people who promote their actions (yes, that's any of us who pay their taxes). it seems simple to me.
posted by mrgrimm at 8:41 AM on October 22, 2004
So, in this picture, the policemen have gas masks. Are the horses not bothered by the pepper spray? Seems to me that they'd freak out a bit, rendering the cops impotent.
posted by Ufez Jones at 8:44 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by Ufez Jones at 8:44 AM on October 22, 2004
but WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE, in general?
These were all college-age kids. I was an idiot at that age. So were you. I wouldn't have broken stuff, but I sure wouldn't have been smart enough to leave when other people did it.
This might be gross negligence on the part of one police officer, but they had to disperse that crowd somehow. I don't like cops, but I can't imagine that one was trying to injure a girl who was standing around when there were men actively breaking shit. So I hope that nothing happens to him-- he already has to live with the fact that he killed an innocent person.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2004
These were all college-age kids. I was an idiot at that age. So were you. I wouldn't have broken stuff, but I sure wouldn't have been smart enough to leave when other people did it.
This might be gross negligence on the part of one police officer, but they had to disperse that crowd somehow. I don't like cops, but I can't imagine that one was trying to injure a girl who was standing around when there were men actively breaking shit. So I hope that nothing happens to him-- he already has to live with the fact that he killed an innocent person.
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:48 AM on October 22, 2004
So I hope that nothing happens to him-- he already has to live with the fact that he killed an innocent person.
Right, and she has to live with the fact that...oh wait....
posted by iamck at 9:10 AM on October 22, 2004
Right, and she has to live with the fact that...oh wait....
posted by iamck at 9:10 AM on October 22, 2004
I don't understand why people feel the need to riot when their team wins. I mean, I'm a huge Red Sox fan, and when they won, I did not feel the urge to tip over a car and set toilet paper rolls on fire. I felt the need to go "Woo!" and then go email my mom. This was a really horrible accident, but it seems to me that the dumbasses who were starting fires, trying to climb the Green Monster, and tipping over cars share as much responsibility as the cop who shot the pellets.
posted by sarcasticah at 9:51 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by sarcasticah at 9:51 AM on October 22, 2004
Others arraigned yesterday were Craig Sini, 19, of West Islip, N.Y., a Northeastern University student who pleaded not guilty to a charge of disorderly conduct after failing to leave a porch at 114 Hemenway St. after police orders. Christian Martini, 22, of West Springfield, another Northeastern student, was charged with disorderly conduct after allegedly throwing a case of beer on the ground and then throwing the cans into the crowd.
I looked at the photos linked above by bondcliff and I find it laughable to think this is seen as a riot. Those fires have flames shooting six maybe seven inches into the sky.
Maybe it's a European thing.
posted by fullerine at 10:27 AM on October 22, 2004
I looked at the photos linked above by bondcliff and I find it laughable to think this is seen as a riot. Those fires have flames shooting six maybe seven inches into the sky.
Maybe it's a European thing.
posted by fullerine at 10:27 AM on October 22, 2004
I'm with fullerine. This is a riot. And this is a riot.
Yes I have a bigger penis than any of you, nya nya.
posted by mr.marx at 11:27 AM on October 22, 2004
Yes I have a bigger penis than any of you, nya nya.
posted by mr.marx at 11:27 AM on October 22, 2004
FUCKING DRUNKEN SHEEP MEET FEAR CRAZED ARMED NAZI FASCISTS. FILM AT 11. BECAUSE SPORTS AND COMPETITION KEEP OUR SOCIETY HEALTHY.
posted by quonsar at 11:30 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by quonsar at 11:30 AM on October 22, 2004
The latest San Francisco Bay Guardian has an interesting article about the increasing use of "non-lethal" weapons and theorizes that police are more likely to abuse them. Next up: Taser land mines!
posted by kirkaracha at 12:45 PM on October 22, 2004
posted by kirkaracha at 12:45 PM on October 22, 2004
FUCKING DRUNKEN SHEEP MEET FEAR CRAZED ARMED NAZI FASCISTS.
amen. i'm certainly not glad it happened, but i'm glad that a tragedy like this happened at something other than a political action. perhaps this completely needless death will help people recognize the growing police state. i'm not hopeful, however. the police-state mouthpiece (read: newspapers) will blame the fans, and everyone will follow.
people need to be allowed to take to the streets in celebration. i had a great time on the streets of San Francisco after the 2002 NLCS (i wish i could have repeated it a week later, but alas ...)
police should arrest individuals committing crimes, not treat everyone in the streets the same way, regardless of what some people are doing.
i agree that from the photos this doesn't look like much of a "riot" - i was there in Detroit, 1984 and it was kinda scary just to be in the city. (go Tigers!)
from pxe2000's link:
If there was any real justice you would get your dumb asses beaten and taught a little respect.
isn't that what happened by proxy of one unfortunate woman? "wanna celebrate in the streets? think twice - you might get killed."
not my definition of "articulate and thoughtful." more like "simplistic and obvious." this problem obviously isn't limited to Boston. why not examine the root causes? i don't like the liquor ban idea *at all*, but at least it's a new approach to a long-running problem.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2004
amen. i'm certainly not glad it happened, but i'm glad that a tragedy like this happened at something other than a political action. perhaps this completely needless death will help people recognize the growing police state. i'm not hopeful, however. the police-state mouthpiece (read: newspapers) will blame the fans, and everyone will follow.
people need to be allowed to take to the streets in celebration. i had a great time on the streets of San Francisco after the 2002 NLCS (i wish i could have repeated it a week later, but alas ...)
police should arrest individuals committing crimes, not treat everyone in the streets the same way, regardless of what some people are doing.
i agree that from the photos this doesn't look like much of a "riot" - i was there in Detroit, 1984 and it was kinda scary just to be in the city. (go Tigers!)
from pxe2000's link:
If there was any real justice you would get your dumb asses beaten and taught a little respect.
isn't that what happened by proxy of one unfortunate woman? "wanna celebrate in the streets? think twice - you might get killed."
not my definition of "articulate and thoughtful." more like "simplistic and obvious." this problem obviously isn't limited to Boston. why not examine the root causes? i don't like the liquor ban idea *at all*, but at least it's a new approach to a long-running problem.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2004
. I don't like cops, but I can't imagine that one was trying to injure a girl who was standing around when there were men actively breaking shit. So I hope that nothing happens to him-- he already has to live with the fact that he killed an innocent person.
So what? I'm sure there are drunk drivers who kill people but were only trying to get home from the bar. If you're a police officer you should probably not whirl around and fire wildly at head-level because a beer bottle broke around your feet. If that turns out to be the truth, he should be fired, stripped of his pension, and the department should be sued for whatever the family can get out of it.
posted by The God Complex at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2004
So what? I'm sure there are drunk drivers who kill people but were only trying to get home from the bar. If you're a police officer you should probably not whirl around and fire wildly at head-level because a beer bottle broke around your feet. If that turns out to be the truth, he should be fired, stripped of his pension, and the department should be sued for whatever the family can get out of it.
posted by The God Complex at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2004
So have the cops basically given up on just wading into a crowd, singling out the troublemakers, and dragging them off to jail? It seems they have to do everything like its some military operation these days. These "non-lethal" weapons just give them an excuse to fire into the "enemy" from a safe distance. It looks like they used the same Greek phalanx technique here that they did in New York. I can't imagine a police officer in a major city during the 70's or 80's turning around and firing anything into a crowd because someone through a bottle near him. Not unless there was already a raging gunbattle. They may have cracked a few heads unnecesarily, but still, there's been some serious distorting of the concept of a "police" action.
posted by MetalDog at 1:47 PM on October 22, 2004
posted by MetalDog at 1:47 PM on October 22, 2004
I can't imagine a police officer in a major city during the 70's or 80's turning around and firing anything into a crowd because someone threw a bottle near him.
you should read Hunter Thompson's "Strange Rumblings in Aztlan." though it's not really connected, this Boston story reminds me of it b/c of "death by non-lethal weapon."
during Chicano "riots" in East Los Angeles in 1970, reporter Ruben Salazar was killed when a tear-gas projectile was fired into a cafe for reasons that were never very clear.
Thompson wrote the Salazar story right before (and finished it after, i think) his famous fear&loathing trip to Las Vegas for the Mint 500/DA conference. i think his famed attorney was related to the story too. (and a real attorney!)
i couldn't find it online, though. sorry. it starts out, "Morning comes hard to the Hotel Ashmun ..." (link to HST fan site article about the story)
posted by mrgrimm at 5:38 PM on October 22, 2004
you should read Hunter Thompson's "Strange Rumblings in Aztlan." though it's not really connected, this Boston story reminds me of it b/c of "death by non-lethal weapon."
during Chicano "riots" in East Los Angeles in 1970, reporter Ruben Salazar was killed when a tear-gas projectile was fired into a cafe for reasons that were never very clear.
Thompson wrote the Salazar story right before (and finished it after, i think) his famous fear&loathing trip to Las Vegas for the Mint 500/DA conference. i think his famed attorney was related to the story too. (and a real attorney!)
i couldn't find it online, though. sorry. it starts out, "Morning comes hard to the Hotel Ashmun ..." (link to HST fan site article about the story)
posted by mrgrimm at 5:38 PM on October 22, 2004
Too bad for that woman. Talk about wrong place at the wrong time. My condolences to her family.
Maybe next time the Patriots win or the Redsox, or the Bruins, we can maybe celebrate without overturning cars, burning cars, vandalising public and private property, and generally being the largest televised embarrassment in the country.
Every stupid ass that behaved like a complete imbecile should personally write a letter of apology to that woman's family. There assinine behavior is what gives the police license to respond.
PS I hope to be moving out of Massachusetts before the year is out. Fingers crossed
posted by a3matrix at 8:22 PM on October 22, 2004
Maybe next time the Patriots win or the Redsox, or the Bruins, we can maybe celebrate without overturning cars, burning cars, vandalising public and private property, and generally being the largest televised embarrassment in the country.
Every stupid ass that behaved like a complete imbecile should personally write a letter of apology to that woman's family. There assinine behavior is what gives the police license to respond.
PS I hope to be moving out of Massachusetts before the year is out. Fingers crossed
posted by a3matrix at 8:22 PM on October 22, 2004
PS I hope to be moving out of Massachusetts before the year is out. Fingers crossed
Good riddance.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:39 AM on October 23, 2004
Good riddance.
posted by Mayor Curley at 9:39 AM on October 23, 2004
There will be a vigil tonight and a demonstration tomorrow against the further police intimidation at these events. more information here. And I second the Mayor.
posted by grimley at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2004
posted by grimley at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2004
Thats right guys, go flip some cars over and burn them, then wonder why the cops are out there in riot gear.
posted by a3matrix at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2004
posted by a3matrix at 6:54 PM on October 23, 2004
"Geezers need excitement. If their lives don't provide it, they incite violence. Simple common sense."
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:03 AM on October 24, 2004
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:03 AM on October 24, 2004
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posted by grimley at 6:55 AM on October 22, 2004