Or maybe it's just the voter's fault
October 22, 2004 8:57 AM Subscribe
Blackbox Voting, take 6. While lawsuits elsewhere seek to require paper trails or block e-voting altogether, early voting in some states is already using the controversial machines. Take New Mexico, for example: "I voted for Kerry and a check mark for Bush appeared." It's not that funny anymore — especially when most of the fears aren't about what you do see, but what you don't.
Eureka! How about we make it that to qualify to vote you have to win money on a touch screen quiz game down the pub?
posted by biffa at 9:03 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by biffa at 9:03 AM on October 22, 2004
Oh look, its 5.04pm on a Friday, I wonder what could have given me that idea?
posted by biffa at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2004
posted by biffa at 9:04 AM on October 22, 2004
"People are touching them with their palms, or leaning their hand"
That may be true, and it has nothing to do with any dark conspiracy, but it's still a problem. I've worked the polls and you have a lot of elderly people who have trouble with any voting process due to vision and other problems. A system that makes it easy to accidently choose the wrong candidate is "a problem with the machine".
posted by 2sheets at 9:32 AM on October 22, 2004
That may be true, and it has nothing to do with any dark conspiracy, but it's still a problem. I've worked the polls and you have a lot of elderly people who have trouble with any voting process due to vision and other problems. A system that makes it easy to accidently choose the wrong candidate is "a problem with the machine".
posted by 2sheets at 9:32 AM on October 22, 2004
in Florida, touch-screen undervote rates have been six times higher than optical scan rates
...so what, again, is a single advantage that touchscreen machines offers to democracy?
posted by Zurishaddai at 10:05 AM on October 22, 2004
...so what, again, is a single advantage that touchscreen machines offers to democracy?
posted by Zurishaddai at 10:05 AM on October 22, 2004
$$$ . . . that's what.
Well, not an advantage to democracy . . .
posted by Boydrop at 10:44 AM on October 22, 2004
Well, not an advantage to democracy . . .
posted by Boydrop at 10:44 AM on October 22, 2004
so what, again, is a single advantage that touchscreen machines offers to democracy?
It's easier to:
Make large-print "ballots"
Have fully multilingual ballots instead of just English and Spanish
Confirm your set of votes before you finalize it
... if it's set up right. Obviously, that's the catch in real life.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:03 AM on October 22, 2004
It's easier to:
Make large-print "ballots"
Have fully multilingual ballots instead of just English and Spanish
Confirm your set of votes before you finalize it
... if it's set up right. Obviously, that's the catch in real life.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:03 AM on October 22, 2004
"In Sandoval County, three Rio Rancho residents said they had a similar problem, with opposite results. They said a touch-screen machine switched their presidential votes from Bush to Kerry."
so, the touch-screen machine is smarter than the voter in this case?
seriously, despite my utter contempt for bush, even a machine changing a bush vote to a kerry one is unacceptable. why the fuck can't we use bubble sheets and an optical scanner? we're trained from birth to use the damn bubble sheets. every kid who ever went through standardized testing in grade school has used a bubble sheet. what the fuck is the problem with our goddamn system? and why are we the only country in the world that has this many goddamn issues with our voting machines? i mean, fuck - what the hell ever happened to american ingenuity?
(sorry 'bout the cursing there folks, but this whole electronic vote thing seriously burns my ass. i was damn happy to learn that my polling place will be using good old fashioned punch cards, thank god.)
posted by caution live frogs at 11:15 AM on October 22, 2004
so, the touch-screen machine is smarter than the voter in this case?
seriously, despite my utter contempt for bush, even a machine changing a bush vote to a kerry one is unacceptable. why the fuck can't we use bubble sheets and an optical scanner? we're trained from birth to use the damn bubble sheets. every kid who ever went through standardized testing in grade school has used a bubble sheet. what the fuck is the problem with our goddamn system? and why are we the only country in the world that has this many goddamn issues with our voting machines? i mean, fuck - what the hell ever happened to american ingenuity?
(sorry 'bout the cursing there folks, but this whole electronic vote thing seriously burns my ass. i was damn happy to learn that my polling place will be using good old fashioned punch cards, thank god.)
posted by caution live frogs at 11:15 AM on October 22, 2004
Is there a Web site or forum setup to track voter "stories" or irregularities yet? It looks like BlackBoxVoting.com has started colleting some (RSS feed here) but it sounds like it would be prudent for a massive effort to collect stories.
Not only that, but have people educated so if they report a voting problem in the morning, we can easily tell them where need to go if their name was invalidly purged from the rolls - and inform them of states that have "Provisional balloting".
Anyone?
posted by bkdelong at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2004
Not only that, but have people educated so if they report a voting problem in the morning, we can easily tell them where need to go if their name was invalidly purged from the rolls - and inform them of states that have "Provisional balloting".
Anyone?
posted by bkdelong at 11:18 AM on October 22, 2004
At my bank machine, which is a touch screen, I learned that if I press the screen where it says "withdrawal" it asks me how much I want to deposit. I solve this problem by touch about an inch above the withdrawal button. While it took me about a minute to figure out this solution, I know that my grandfather, for example, would have been totally baffled by this. If he faced a voting machine like this, he wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do if the system did not work exactly as advertised. Probably, he would be too embarassed to admit he couldn't figure it out and would just let his mistaken vote stand.
The more parts there are to a system, the more chances there are for that system to break down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2004
The more parts there are to a system, the more chances there are for that system to break down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2004
why the fuck can't we use bubble sheets and an optical scanner?
We can. Lots of places do. The downside is that bubble-sheets, or other optical-scan forms, are harder for old people to deal with as (1) their vision is bad, and the ballots generally have very small print to fit everything onto one sheet -- especially when you need to run the instructions and titles in English and Spanish, and (2) their hands are a bit wobbly so they find it harder to make the small, neat, precise marks you need to do for an optical scanner.
why are we the only country in the world that has this many goddamn issues with our voting machines?
Almost everywhere else in the world has much, much simpler elections, with only a few offices or issues in question at each election. They get away with hand-counting paper ballots because they're not trying to run 35--100 (or more) elections at the same time.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:47 PM on October 22, 2004
We can. Lots of places do. The downside is that bubble-sheets, or other optical-scan forms, are harder for old people to deal with as (1) their vision is bad, and the ballots generally have very small print to fit everything onto one sheet -- especially when you need to run the instructions and titles in English and Spanish, and (2) their hands are a bit wobbly so they find it harder to make the small, neat, precise marks you need to do for an optical scanner.
why are we the only country in the world that has this many goddamn issues with our voting machines?
Almost everywhere else in the world has much, much simpler elections, with only a few offices or issues in question at each election. They get away with hand-counting paper ballots because they're not trying to run 35--100 (or more) elections at the same time.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:47 PM on October 22, 2004
I learned that if I press the screen where it says "withdrawal" it asks me how much I want to deposit. I solve this problem by touch about an inch above the withdrawal button.
Ditto with mine. Also, Diebold made other "improvements" in my credit union's new machine:
1. No more pocket with fresh deposit envelopes. So no more prepping the envelopes ahead of time. Now partway through the process the screen asks if you need an envelope, and as soon as it parcels one out, starts beeping, asking if you need more time. Of course I need more #(@!* time. And woe if you need to refer to your ATM card to get your member ID number - because your @%#! ATM card is already in the machine.
2. But BEST of all is when the screen informs you to take something (cash, receipt? I can't recall) from the slot on the right. Of course there's no slot on the right. It's on the left. (aka Diebold's other right.)
Come to think of it, Diebold's ATMs are just like the government they support - trying the best to make sure I don't get any money.
As for voting procedures - the Detroit suburb I've lived in a couple decades uses the old bubble sheets. The smaller town where I grew up had lever-type deals.
Communities have to get rid of those crap touch-screen things. But they won't after they've expended the cash.
posted by NorthernLite at 1:58 PM on October 22, 2004
Ditto with mine. Also, Diebold made other "improvements" in my credit union's new machine:
1. No more pocket with fresh deposit envelopes. So no more prepping the envelopes ahead of time. Now partway through the process the screen asks if you need an envelope, and as soon as it parcels one out, starts beeping, asking if you need more time. Of course I need more #(@!* time. And woe if you need to refer to your ATM card to get your member ID number - because your @%#! ATM card is already in the machine.
2. But BEST of all is when the screen informs you to take something (cash, receipt? I can't recall) from the slot on the right. Of course there's no slot on the right. It's on the left. (aka Diebold's other right.)
Come to think of it, Diebold's ATMs are just like the government they support - trying the best to make sure I don't get any money.
As for voting procedures - the Detroit suburb I've lived in a couple decades uses the old bubble sheets. The smaller town where I grew up had lever-type deals.
Communities have to get rid of those crap touch-screen things. But they won't after they've expended the cash.
posted by NorthernLite at 1:58 PM on October 22, 2004
Maybe the solution, then, isn't to change from bubble-sheets and hand-counting, but to simplify the damn election.
It's amazing that people even bother to vote, given the burden of deciding dozens of votes at one time. Yeesh.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:02 PM on October 22, 2004
It's amazing that people even bother to vote, given the burden of deciding dozens of votes at one time. Yeesh.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:02 PM on October 22, 2004
The e-voting machines I've used here in Austin for the last few years have a wheel you turn. You don't touch the screen. I had to do a write in for Congressman and it totally took me back to the days when you had to enter your initials after getting the high score in Tempest. It isn't from Diebold, but from some Austin-based company [keepin' it weird y'all!].
Of course there is no paper receipt but in my county I'm sure we'll go blue again. And there won't be any irregularities here since it is all but certain W will carry the Lone Star State.
Thank you Tom DeLay for changing my congressional district so there was only a Republican on the ballot for my district. So anyone voting for someone else had to enter it manually. I hope spelling doesn't count.
posted by birdherder at 4:01 PM on October 22, 2004
Of course there is no paper receipt but in my county I'm sure we'll go blue again. And there won't be any irregularities here since it is all but certain W will carry the Lone Star State.
Thank you Tom DeLay for changing my congressional district so there was only a Republican on the ballot for my district. So anyone voting for someone else had to enter it manually. I hope spelling doesn't count.
posted by birdherder at 4:01 PM on October 22, 2004
A few rigged voting machines, a few disenfranchised eligible voters, a few ballots tossed away on technicalities, and pretty soon you have another stolen election.
Amazing waht money can buy.
Is it time to hit the streets yet?
posted by nofundy at 6:17 PM on October 22, 2004
Amazing waht money can buy.
Is it time to hit the streets yet?
posted by nofundy at 6:17 PM on October 22, 2004
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posted by rafter at 8:59 AM on October 22, 2004