Comments on: Tali-banned

Tali-banned

swift — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:18:52 -0800

Secret Service investigates high school band Coalition of the Willing for performing a Bob Dylan song. Actually, for wanting to perform a Bob Dylan song. Parents freak out.

By: n9

n9 — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:24:58 -0800

(double post? maybe it was on boing boing.) In any case Masters of War is a hard, hard song. Especially these days. No one can touch Dylan for the social commentary when the chips are down: Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks You that never done nothin' But build to destroy You play with my world Like it's your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets fly Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain You fasten the triggers For the others to fire Then you set back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion As young people's blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mud You've thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain't worth the blood That runs in your veins How much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I'm young You might say I'm unlearned But there's one thing I know Though I'm younger than you Even Jesus would never Forgive what you do Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul And I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead

By: caution live frogs

caution live frogs — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:25:37 -0800

nice. so last week i heard bob dylan himself sing the song in concert. did anyone notify the secret service last tuesday? i didn't see them around. maybe they were late showing up to the gig. or maybe people in this country are just so indoctrinated into this partisan bullshit that there is no room for even minor civil disobedience any more. thoreau is probably rolling over in his grave.

By: ursus_comiter

ursus_comiter — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:31:45 -0800

Damn, it's nice to read that the school principal is supporting these kids. It's a shame that I find that surprising.

By: Danf

Danf — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:32:01 -0800

Lucinda Williams covered that song during her last tour, as an encore. . .Very appropos, very moving, very valid. I hope that the Coalition of the Willing gets a huge boost out of this. Good for them!

By: Boydrop

Boydrop — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:32:38 -0800

ugh, what's even scarier is that this would even be considered "civil disobedience". Chrissakes, its just a damn song!

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:36:30 -0800

Well, the parents and students have every right to be offended, but I think they are taking it a little far by bringing the Secret Service into it. Indeed, as per usual, by taking it to this level, they've brought more attention to the band and to the song than either would have had otherwise. In the process, they've made their cause look kind of stupid, ignorant and bully-ish. Mission accomplished?

By: eustacescrubb

eustacescrubb — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:38:25 -0800

Well, the parents and students have every right to be offended Yeah, they like their prophets false, with the tickle-your-ear kind of offerings. Since when was opposing war leftist?

By: kaibutsu

kaibutsu — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:45:51 -0800

From what I recall, Dylan hasn't used the last verse in concert since the start of that early-eighties Christian kick. [/music nerd]

By: agregoli

agregoli — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:46:38 -0800

I hope we find out the resolution to this.

By: mmahaffie

mmahaffie — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:48:04 -0800

I can't find it now, but Bobby Weir had at one point provided a free MP3 on-line of the version of Masters of War he did in rehearsal with Ratdog that is now on his Weir Here collection. It's a wonderfully snarling version learned and recorded shortly after the Iraq war began, as a reaction to the war. It's on my portable and gets a regular listen.

By: majcher

majcher — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:48:54 -0800

Even if it weren't part of a relatively well-known song, is "I hope that you die" really even a threat? I mean, sure, there's a few people that I wouldn't be sad about if something terrible happened to them, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to take any action against them myself. What a stupid, collossal waste of time and resources.

By: stupidsexyFlanders

stupidsexyFlanders — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:50:21 -0800

When I see a song written in the second person I figure the person is either closeted (if a relationship song) or a potential assassin (if a political song). The system hasn't failed me yet. Try it!

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:50:47 -0800

Yeah, they like their prophets false, with the tickle-your-ear kind of offerings. Since when was opposing war leftist? They also have a right to believe in false prophets, or the big Pixie in the sky, or that tiny people live in their salt shakers. Having the right to believe something and doing something stupid (like calling the Secret Service and making them waste time and money investigating a high school talent show) are two separate issues. They still have the right to be offended.

By: fenriq

fenriq — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:52:10 -0800

How dare those ~~cannon fodder~~ kids oppose the totally justified and completely really legitimate war in Iraq. I think they should amend the Constitution to make it legal to send 15 year olds to war.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:56:28 -0800

By: matteo

matteo — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:01:38 -0800

sadly, I'm old enough to remember that this song was still powerful in 1991, during another Mesopotamian War. Dylan decided to sing it at the Grammys, still making the right people nervous. this is his Grammy speech: "Well," he said, "my daddy, he didn't leave me much, you know he was a very simple man, but what he did tell me was this, he did say, son, he said" - there was a long pause, nervous laughter from the crowd - "he say, you know it's possible to become so defiled in this world that your own father and mother will abandon you and if that happens, God will always believe in your ability to mend your ways."

By: GhostintheMachine

GhostintheMachine — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:04:09 -0800

"These kids are being used to promote ~~an extreme leftist~~ a different point of view on the taxpayers' dime," Boulder resident James Lemons told KMGH. Kids these days. Don't they know they're not supposed to have their own opinions on stuff? What the heck are we edumicatin' em these days?

By: NewBornHippy

NewBornHippy — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:09:04 -0800

The Coallition of the Willing are OK. But I prefer there early days as The Army of Compassion.

By: eyeballkid

eyeballkid — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:10:49 -0800

I think they should amend the Constitution to make it legal to send 15 year olds to war. Slow down. We still haven't amended it to take care o' them dirty gays yet. everyone else can all go to hell I'm beginning to think that this whole hell thing is vastly underrated. If all the fundies are going to heaven, why the fuck would I want to be there? I agree with Joey Michaels, however. They do have the right to be offended. They have the right to complain to their local talk radio station, and, yes, even to the Secret Service. Just like the KKK has a right to march through your town on Jewish holidays. The real problem here is that the Secret Service actually felt it was worth looking into. Right now Nixon is smiling down on us from heaven, happy that the dirty hippies are again getting their due (one more reason Hell is looking better and better.)

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:12:37 -0800

Oh, sure they have a "right to be offended." But why is it necessary to comment on that? This is just another example of bullshit-"balance": We have to make super, super sure that we don't say anything that might offend religionists and jingoists, everyone else can all go to hell. Well, you have the right to be offended by my statement that they have the right to be offended. However, if you were to try to get my comments yanked or otherwise try and prevent me from taking advantage of my first amendment rights, you'd be drawing more attention to my comments. In much the same way, by responding in this fashion to the band, these parents and students have made the band more important than they would ever have been on their own.

By: sageleaf

sageleaf — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:19:29 -0800

Oh, a band. When I see "high school band," I'm thinking tubas and trombones and just trying to imagine any Dylan song.

By: kenko

kenko — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:42:49 -0800

Wouldn't it only be civil disobedience if it were actually illegal? It's not illegal to sing a song.

By: jellybuzz

jellybuzz — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:48:54 -0800

I say it's about time the Secret Service stepped up on this. Start with these high school kids, who, now that they got busted are acting so innocent, yeah right. But how about the infamous lefty peace-mongering guy who wrote the song -- he's been at large for decades. How the hell does he get away with it? Oh and that Lucinda Williams chick, there's a scary ass radical. Worse, I heard Pearl Jam -- a bona fide threat to the republic if ever there was one -- performed the song on Letterman last month. Investigate 'em all for that broadcast, dammit, especially ABC and its parent Disney. And just for the record, SS man, I am playing "Masters of War" right now -- loud -- and SINGING ALONG. And so is my pet parrot. And we MEANT it. Come and get US!

By: scody

scody — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:55:58 -0800

It's not illegal to sing a song. ...yet. [/obligatory]

By: Eamon

Eamon — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:00:59 -0800

Ha ha, sageleaf, that was my reaction.

By: mygoditsbob

mygoditsbob — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:02:26 -0800

Is this just the start? This seems so 50's. It is as if we all need to pull out 'The Crucible' and give it another read. From a Constitutional law perspective, if the school is sponsoring the activity, the students have the right to express political beliefs. I can't believe that a forty year old song at a school talent contest merits the attention of the SS. This has a significant chilling effect on the free exchange of political ideas.

By: soyjoy

soyjoy — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:10:55 -0800

Y'know, "slippery slope" is supposed to be a fallacy and all, but this is a perfect illustration of the reality of it: The kids aren't even singing about killing the president, but as majcher said, only wishing he were dead. Big diff right there, even if singing a song someone else wrote were equivalent to announcing your own intentions. What's next? Do we not dare to mention that George W is MORTAL and that he will one day inevitably DIE? I mean, how - Hey! Leggo! Where are you - stop it! HEY! LEMME GO! I didn't mean it! It just slipped out! ...heyyyy!!!!....

By: wah

wah — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:12:31 -0800

It is as if we all need to pull out 'The Crucible' and give it another read. Heck, give 'Common Sense' a once-over.

By: zoogleplex

zoogleplex — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:14:55 -0800

They should have played "War Pigs" instead.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:26:06 -0800

Watch what you say, and watch what you do.

By: junkbox

junkbox — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:38:43 -0800

And watch what your neighbors are doing so you can call the Feds on those pinko Commie bastards. The United States of America: self-policing since 2004.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:38:51 -0800

As encores, I believe they're going to play "Margaret on the Guillotine" by Morrisey and "Tramp the Dirt Down" by Elvis Costello.

By: 327.ca

327.ca — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:19:16 -0800

Snotty kids. But, hey, it's nothing that a nightime strafing run or judicious use of a Taser can't set straight.

By: hoborg

hoborg — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:22:45 -0800

Wait, so Bob Dylan is relevant again?

By: swift

swift — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:23:55 -0800

From a Constitutional law perspective, if the school is sponsoring the activity, the students have the right to express political beliefs. In high school I learned the hard way that this is not necessarily so (I was on the newspaper staff). There is no such thing as free speech in high school. The law allows schools to stifle students as much as they want, just as the parent company of, say, a network tv channel can control what its various affiliates air.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:26:39 -0800

But some students and adults who heard the band rehearse called a radio talk show Thursday morning, saying the song the band sang ended with a call for President Bush to die. So, they're *admitting* that Bush is one of the Masters of War? Cool!

By: Joey Michaels

Joey Michaels — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:46:52 -0800

Mind That Parcel. Eagle Eyes Can Save a Life.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:47:37 -0800

i think the singer made a very important point: We never conveyed that Bush was the person we were talking about. duh. isn't that kinda the crux of the issue? if the lyrics don't even mention Bush specifically, or "the president," how can this be considered a threat? the obvious logical conclusion, which some nimby jackasses in Boulder have confirmed, that the U.S. president = warmonger, but the song itself leaves an ambiguous subject. it has to be embarrassing that the Secret Service took the complaint seriously. it seems like a phone call to the principal could have sufficed for an investigation. on preview: interrobang beat me to it. much more concisely.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:34:51 -0800

I'm thinking tubas and trombones and just trying to imagine any Dylan song. For some odd reason, Rainy Day Women #12 & 35 comes to mind.

By: squirrel

squirrel — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:21:18 -0800

How pathetic is US culture when the resistence music is rehashed from 30 years ago, and the young singers with influence are putting out status quo crap. Where are the Dylans of today, fer fuck's sake?

By: Keyser Soze

Keyser Soze — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:46:18 -0800

Where are the snowdens of yesteryear?

By: goneill

goneill — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:55:20 -0800

Dear god, squirrel, can you imagine if the children didn't have the defense, 'i didn't write it!'

By: Hildago

Hildago — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:35:14 -0800

They should just co-opt Dylan's anti-war songs, like Chevrolet (or Ford, or whoever) used "Fortunate Son" to sell patriotic pickup trucks to idiots who never listen to lyrics. That way, it would lose all its meaning, just like the word "terrorism" and the word "weapons of mass destruction" has lost all meaning, and can be used any way the president wants. I think they could spin the phrase "Masters of War" into a good thing. Like, "Hey terrorists, don't fuck with us, we're the Masters of War, bitches!"

By: anastasiav

anastasiav — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:35:35 -0800

Where are the Dylans of today, fer fuck's sake? Here's one They just don't get as much radio play on the Clearchannels of the world these days....

By: Satapher

Satapher — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:40:19 -0800

the question you rampant pinko combo meal liberals need to ask yourself is : What if YOU are the person the last verse is condemning?

By: Satapher

Satapher — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:55:54 -0800

last i heard connor oberst was the next dylan. jesus christ. oberst fell and is now trapped inside his own bathroom mirror. he spends his time outlining impressionist poetry with his middle finger everytime his nabakov sister happens to take a steamy shower or dump. dylan is an immortal companion of abraham and dante.

By: Satapher

Satapher — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:18:25 -0800

and theres trumpet all over Blonde on Blonde. charlie mccoy would play bass guitar and trumpet simultaneously.

By: Skwirl

Skwirl — Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:50:35 -0800

Swift: "There is no such thing as free speech in high school." This is not entirely true and quite a bit defeatist. I ain't no lawyer and my j-school law classes are a little rusty, but the relevant Supreme Court cases are usually Tinker and Hazelwood. Newspapers fall under the Hazelwood standard because student publications are funded by the school and should therefore serve pedagogical purposes (as judged by the principal). There's some wiggle room for free speech, but for the most part, it's pretty bad. We're talking about student performance here, besides the principal is supporting the kids. In Tinker the Supreme Court decided that non-disruptive expression is protected. High school students need to be aware of their (rapidly shrinking, but still existent) free speech rights. Authoritarians have an advantage, but they absolutely do not have carte blanc to censor student expression in public schools. This is one good reason to fight the fundies in their attempts to bankrupt the public school system with goodies like the No Child Left Behind Act, since private schools have absolutely no boundaries at all in how they can censor student expression.

By: axon

axon — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:55:33 -0800

Wow, this whole issue makes me feel pretty sick. It seems to me the very people who rant about the horrors of communism, and go on and on about the toppling tyrannies in the Middle East are the very same people who can't wait to pick up a phone and shop their fellow citizens to the secret services *cough* police .

By: seanyboy

seanyboy — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 03:49:29 -0800

It's not illegal to sing a song. That's what I told them with regard to my latest album. "How to refine Uranium and smuggle it past the infidel". But did they listen. Did they buggery. 30 years old Try 40. (written in 1963) And then start to feel very, very old. It's weird that the song could potentially be older than some of the parents complaining about the song.

By: GhostintheMachine

GhostintheMachine — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 04:14:36 -0800

Satapher, if that last verse were directed at me, I'd stop and take a good hard look at what I was doing to see if I deserved such invective. Navel-gazing, that's what we rampant pinko combo meal liberals do.

By: LouReedsSon

LouReedsSon — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:06:50 -0800

Wait, so Bob Dylan is relevant again? ...but even the president of the United States Sometimes must have to stand naked. Dylan is god.

By: caution live frogs

caution live frogs — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:56:44 -0800

kaibutsu: apparently mr. dylan feels it is time to start singing the last verse again, 'cause it sure as hell resonated with the crowd at the concert. after he finished the song i remmeber turning to my wife and commenting on how it was as relevant to the state of the world today as it was when it was first written. the more the times they a'change, the more they stay the same i guess.

By: Satapher

Satapher — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:17:35 -0800

it was as relevant to the state of the world today as it was when it was first written. i say the hearts of men have remained unchanged since the dawn of time, science has allowed and created some neat stuff, but we're still zombie assholes.

By: Satapher

Satapher — Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:49:55 -0800

ghost, it wasnt directed at anyone... it was a funny joke, i believe in life and death, not left and right.

By: Sidhedevil

Sidhedevil — Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:03:49 -0800

Jesus, that song is older than I am, and I'm older than dirt. Satapher, you keep using the word "funny". I do not think that word means what you think it means. "We're still zombie assholes"--what a great life philosophy! I'm definitely taking all of my comedy tips from you from now on. You're a barrel of fun!

By: Satapher

Satapher — Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:16:10 -0800

prove me wrong.

By: agregoli

agregoli — Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:18:11 -0800

Funny isn't proveable or unproveable.

By: squirrel

squirrel — Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:10:44 -0800

You take that back!