Vietnam revisited

December 8, 2004 7:28 AM

It is not the first time this thing happens,but I'm sure we'll be seeing more and more of this until Americans finally wake up and realise the nightmare Bush has dragged us all in. What with CIA reports painting a completely different picture than the administration would have us belive and the help from people with experience from previous military blunders, it looks like we may soon have a revival of the "stop the war trains" tradition. Cheers!
posted by acrobat (26 comments total)

I can't believe this is happening in the country I live in. I wanted to add the following as a post, but for some reason I can't yet. Well, in the spirit of gripes about the current administration, I submit this to you: When art starts getting censored for political reasons, that's when I get pissed. Of course, the signs have been discussed for some time now...
posted by indiebass at 7:41 AM on December 8, 2004

That's not political reasons.. it's entirely economic.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:52 AM on December 8, 2004

hmmm, looks like more faulty intelligence from the CIA.

haven't you been listening to dear liar, i mean dear leader, i mean our leader: everything's going great in the colonies!
posted by three blind mice at 7:53 AM on December 8, 2004

"They can't throw us all in jail."
...but they certainly can (and probably will) put you in jail.

You can't blame naivete' on not going to Iraq, if thats the job "Uncle Sam" told you to do. Then again, it's not like the war has any real justification anymore. The only way some people support this war is using conjecture to paint themselves a rosy picture....

Osama Bin Laden really wanted American troops out of Saudi Arabia. In fact, when the war began in Iraq we tried making a deal with Saudi Arabia to put much more troops in and they told us no. After that we pulled everyone out (in a decision that has qualities of "Fuck you, lets all leave" to it) and Osama got his wish.
posted by Keyser Soze at 7:55 AM on December 8, 2004

I can't believe this is happening in the country I live in.

wait until there's 55,000 dead and the president directs a political burglary coverup. THEN wring your hands.
posted by quonsar at 7:56 AM on December 8, 2004

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to them if they'd been drafted instead of having volunteered to join the military. The folks who have been trapped by Stop Loss are a little different however. Having been there myself, that situation does suck. And while the possibilities of Stop Loss are mentioned while you are in, that part is in really fine print and really low voices.
posted by jim-of-oz at 8:03 AM on December 8, 2004

1000 American troops dead (thousands more severely injured) and the situation worsens steadily. Don't wait until they reach 55.000 before you start shouting in the streets.
posted by acrobat at 8:14 AM on December 8, 2004

1000 American troops dead

make that 1,276 American troops dead (most current information)
posted by jperkins at 8:26 AM on December 8, 2004

I really hate the fact that, when discussing this, the first reaction is almost always to talk about the number of American dead. I have heard that the number of Iraqis dead could number as high as 100,000. That is really pretty scary and wrong, considering we are killing them based on a premise that has been pretty well proven false.

I know, I know. I am sure there are MeFi FPPs about this very thing, but it just makes me sick. We are killing tens of thousands of the people we were supposed to be "saving." I don't think it is really possible for any of us to imagine what it must be like to live in a country in a time of war.

Why aren't we, as Americans (for those of us who are Americans) doing something? I mean, I admit it - I am not. Is it just that we don't know what to do? Is it that we are lazy? Afraid for our own security? What is it?
posted by Yellowbeard at 8:31 AM on December 8, 2004

A few unconnected thoughts about this (excuse me if i am stating the obvious):

I certainly feel sympathetic for these people - I do believe that many signed up thinking they could help their country by joining the military, and were completely let down by our civilian military leadership when they chose to go to war with iraq.

The flipside is that now, more than ever, we need to "fix" iraq if we truly intend to live in a world where terrorism is a "nusiance" and not a widespread threat. In that sense iraq has become a self fulfilling prophecy for GWB. These soldiers did agree to do a job, regardless of their feelings about it.

It will be interesting to watch whether we can ever transform this war (a military mission) into a humanitarian mission. If we can not, iraq is truly lost, and our safety is probably way worse than it would have been if iraq never happened.

posted by jba at 8:38 AM on December 8, 2004

Come on. Can we stop with the histrionics like WHEN WILL AMERICANS WAKE UP and just realize the plain and simple fact that the majority of Americans just like their reality television shows, McGriddle cakes, and Ford Escalades and don't really give a shit what Bush does to the rest of the world or to our own military, as long as he keeps the homos from ruining marriage.

Please.
posted by xmutex at 8:38 AM on December 8, 2004

Anyone seen this? I can only find one source for it, but I'm still surprised it's not going around more.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7415.htm

Also, does anyone want to debunk it for me? If this thing's true, it's extremely damning and goes directly in the face of what so many people (people who reject the CIA leaks as anti-Bush propaganda) are saying.
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 8:41 AM on December 8, 2004

We are killing tens of thousands of the people we were supposed to be "saving."

Yellowbeard, this is something I have a hard time rationalizing as well. Ignoring the mistakes made in going in there in the first place, Iraq *should* be a nation-building exercise now, but we are far from that point. How can we begin "saving" people, when the situation is so dangerous, that those who could do the "saving" are getting blown up and murdered left and right.

The mistakes made by bush and co in iraq are infuriating - everything from the reasons for invasion through the tactical mistakes made on the ground. The question is: "what do we do now?".

I don't know if there is a good answer, but we know that bush is only going to increase the level of fighting in the near term. Things are going to get way worse before they get better. (if they do at all)
posted by jba at 8:47 AM on December 8, 2004

Best Onion Headline Ever: Dead Iraqi Would Have Loved Democracy.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:03 AM on December 8, 2004

You mean if you voluntarily join the military they might actually tell you to go fight?! Oh Lord, the injustice.
posted by m0nm0n at 9:45 AM on December 8, 2004

wait until there's 55,000 dead and the president directs a political burglary coverup.

CAN'T GET FOOLED AGAIN
posted by scarabic at 9:52 AM on December 8, 2004

I figure the sad stink of Iraq is just going to grow - but it will have the finger prints of the Republicans all over it. Americans, red and blue, will not be able to ignore it because when the lid is lifted, we will recoil in disgust at what is going on over there. Then...well...2008 will come and they will all be voted out. But expect much grief between now and then kids. We've seen it before and we're seeing it again...
posted by trii at 10:02 AM on December 8, 2004

dougunderscorenelso, what's that link supposed to be to? I can't get thru.
posted by amberglow at 10:03 AM on December 8, 2004

Damn right we're going to see more of this. The troops are just starting to put the screws to the civies in the Pentagon.

"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?” Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense.

Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.

"Rumsfeld replied that, “You go to war with the Army you have,” not the one you might want..."

(via: MSNBC)
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 10:09 AM on December 8, 2004

Excerpts from the Sundayherald.com (UK) article mirrored on the www.informationclearinghouse.info site:

"The way America has handled itself since September 11 has played straight into the hands of al-Qaeda, the report adds. “American actions have elevated the authority of the jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims.” The result is that al-Qaeda has gone from being a marginal movement to having support across the entire Muslim world.

“Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic,” the report goes on, adding that to the Arab world the war is “no more than an extension of American domestic politics”. The US has zero credibility among Muslims which means that “whatever Americans do and say only serves … the enemy...”

Meanwhile, at the NYT:

At the White House on Monday, President Bush himself offered no hint of pessimism as he met with Iraq's president, Sheik Ghazi al-Yawar. Despite the security challenges, Mr. Bush said, the United States continues to favor the voting scheduled for Iraq on Jan. 30 to "send the clear message to the few people in Iraq that are trying to stop the march toward democracy that they cannot stop elections."

posted by vhsiv at 2:19 PM on December 8, 2004

You mean if you voluntarily join the military they might actually tell you to go fight?! Oh Lord, the injustice.

GG. Really. You're a fucking tard.

Most people who sign up have a reasonable expectation of being there to defend their country.

Going after some tinpot dictator for any reason but defending the country is not what people sign up for.
posted by Talez at 4:19 PM on December 8, 2004

Most people who sign up have a reasonable expectation of being there to defend their country.

Going after some tinpot dictator for any reason but defending the country is not what people sign up for.

Most people who sign up have a reasonable expectation that they will have to fight in any wars that happen, no matter whether they're justified or not. There's no clause in the contract that says "you only have to fight if you think it's right." So you might want to hold onto that "fucking tard" label for your own use.
posted by me & my monkey at 4:37 PM on December 8, 2004

So when a solider gets ordered to wipe out a village of civilians in Vietnam?

Remember. There's no clause in the contract that says "you only have to fight if you think it's right".
posted by Talez at 4:59 PM on December 8, 2004

Can we stop with the histrionics like WHEN WILL AMERICANS WAKE UP and just realize the plain and simple fact that the majority of Americans just like their reality television shows, McGriddle cakes, and Ford Escalades ...

Yes, because obviously anyone that disagrees with you must a drooling obese Joe-Six moron ...

Oh and by the way, Escalades_[sic] are made by Cadillac, not Ford...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:55 PM on December 8, 2004

Most people who sign up have a reasonable expectation that they will have to fight in any wars that happen, no matter whether they're justified or not.

I dunno me & my monkey. I signed up to uphold and defend the constitution. I'm not sure that includes killing to fill the pockets of oil company execs.
I am damn sure that if I was given direct orders to start filling gas chambers with (fill in blank with ethnic/religeous minority of your choice) I would disobey them and start working against my superiors. And I'm certain where I would instead point my weapon if I recieved an order to shoot unarmed American civilians.

You don't want a convictionless blob in any position of importance. It takes character if you want to do something other than sweep floors.
If you honor a man for standing up and fighting for his country you must honor the man who stands up and fights for peace in his country.
...not that they're not going to get hammered by the feds, but that is the sacrifice. I have no respect for chickenshits who squawk war and talk tough from behind the lines, neither can I respect seed-eating sandal-wearing peaceniks who aren't willing to stand up and protest and take the hits for what they believe in.
(since I don't know anyone here personally - all present company excepted of course).
Some of these men obviously do feel the war is wrong. If there are cowards among them, then they certainly do deserve to be castigated.
But I wouldn't want one of them on my six anyway, so the military is better off without them.
posted by Smedleyman at 5:19 PM on December 9, 2004

vhsiv, thanks. I still don't see how this article exists and people aren't aware and horrified. My conservative friends are still all "everyone KNOWS the war is going super well!"

but i still wonder about its validity.
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 1:17 PM on December 10, 2004