"If it's good once, it's good three times!"

January 5, 2005 10:18 AM

Same song, different lyrics. Mikey Smith put out an MP3 of two Nickelback hits, one in each channel, showing them to be basically the same song (original thread). This All Things Considered story shows he's been on the project since then, and the problem is more widespread than it seems.
posted by abcde (115 comments total)

In 1985, CCR's John Fogerty was sued by Fantasy, INC (the holder of the rights to CCR's Run Through The Jungle) for writing The Old Man Down The Road. The claim was the new material was too similar to his old material.

Funny how when Fogerty does it I still have deep respect for him, but in the new case I'm baying for Nickleback blood.
posted by sourwookie at 10:30 AM on January 5, 2005

How funny. All the old punk songs i used to write sound exactly the same too.,
posted by protocool at 10:30 AM on January 5, 2005

the problem is more widespread

it must be reeeeeaaaaaly widespread, man, it's so thin I can't see it.

care to clarificate? enuncify? demarkulate? elucify?
posted by quonsar at 10:33 AM on January 5, 2005

Wow..what a shock. If you like one piece of crap Nickleback writes, why wouldn't you like them all? And why should they challenge themselves beyond the three chords they've worked so hard to perfect? They get radio play out the ass, sell a bunch of albums and bang hot chicks.

Why change a friggin thing?
posted by j.p. Hung at 10:34 AM on January 5, 2005

Wow. NPR is on the cutting edge of music news with this one. How do they do it?
posted by eyeballkid at 10:36 AM on January 5, 2005

And this came as a surprise to anybody?

Seriously, I like some of the pop/rock bands/groups/singers/soloists out today- but I'll be the first to admit that at least 90% of their stuff is recycled. I find I listen to most pop and rock for the same reason I enjoy watching professional wrestling. Quite simply, I don't have to do anything except be entertained. There's no thinking involved, I don't have to look at underlying metaphors or ponder the deeper meanings. I just have to watch or listen and be entertained. There's far more synapses firing when I play video games than when I'm listening to most pop/rock.

When I was in college, my friend and I drove 45 minutes between where we lived and the university. During that time we'd listen to the rock station on the radio. Now then, both of us think Aerosmith sucks.And we both noticed that, with almost any Aerosmith song, you can insert the "Ohhh! Ohhh Yeah!" licks in from Love In An Elevator into almost any pause in the song. Not only will it fit, but it will usually work too.
posted by GreatWesternDragon at 10:38 AM on January 5, 2005

The fact that How You Remind Me is apparently very similar to My Happy Ending (or whatever it's called) by Avril Lavigne is either hilarious or sad. I can't decide which.
posted by oaf at 10:39 AM on January 5, 2005

Oh, and I submit that the band that sounds the most like itself is Everclear.
posted by oaf at 10:40 AM on January 5, 2005

This just in: The new U2 is a sad and pathetic rip-off of old U2.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:42 AM on January 5, 2005

A local radio station did a great mashup of Green Day's Boulevard of Broken Dreams and Oasis' Wonderwall. They're pretty much the same song.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:42 AM on January 5, 2005

Even the Beatles, whom we all love and respect, popped off tons of identical "Hey Girl I Love You" songs. John Lennon joked about it later.

Granted, Nickelback likely won't visit gurus and start writing about yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye, so we can assumed they're doomed to the Suck Bin of History.
posted by NickDouglas at 10:43 AM on January 5, 2005

And Oasis sounds like everyone.
posted by NickDouglas at 10:45 AM on January 5, 2005

Hey, if this follow-up is good enough for NPR, it's good enough for me.

Nickelback bassist: "I think that's remarkable, for someone to notice that there's a 'hit quality.' If all hits sound the same, then sorry. When you are a band that has a distinct style, such as us, or AC/DC, that happens. When you have a distinct style, you run the risk of sounding similar." Nice quote.

quonsar: The broadcast indicates that this is "widespread," that, while Handel and most 50s music copied itself, the fact that you can mash Avril Lavigne and other top 40s hits atop the Nickelback song in question is really disturbing--hearkening to an "increasing homogeneity in the North American" something-or-other. The musical canon, or something.
posted by jennanemone at 10:46 AM on January 5, 2005

AC/DC has written the same song over and over too for close to thirty years. Sincerely and this is not defense of Nickelback, what makes AC/DC so fucking good (and they are IMO) and Nickelback so terrible? Is it just that AC/DC's song is better?

On preview: Avril Lavigne [snort] I find myself both annoyed by and feeling pity for her (in that she seems to sincerely believe that she's authentic). Is there a German word for that?
posted by psmealey at 10:49 AM on January 5, 2005

I find I listen to most pop and rock for the same reason I enjoy watching professional wrestling

I think like this about my good rock n roll albums.
posted by protocool at 10:49 AM on January 5, 2005

Mikey Smith could spend the rest of his life just doing Ramone songs...
posted by Vaska at 10:50 AM on January 5, 2005

yawn - this reminds me of a comedy act from Australia, on Just For Laughs, where two women sing two Britney Spears hits together. So, oops, someone did it again - Nickelback, Britney, whatever.
posted by seawallrunner at 10:52 AM on January 5, 2005

If anyone didn't catch this yesterday on NPR, you ought to try and track it down. I thought it was hilarious. First of all because it's such a no-brainer, but second of all because after they played a bit of the songs that this guy is complaining about simultaneously (which was very amusing), they ended the piece by playing some of the guy's personal music from his own band (I gathered).

What was so amusing was how much it reminded me exactly of some Tool song I'd heard before.
posted by odinsdream at 10:52 AM on January 5, 2005

Germans don't have words for pity.
posted by NickDouglas at 10:54 AM on January 5, 2005

Sourwookie, I believe John Fogerty was sued because one of his solo songs sounded to much like a CCR song (even though he was part of CCR).

And I don't get the Oasis/Green Day mash-up at all. Those songs don't sound similar to me, and I consider myself a fan of both artists. Anyone else hear it?
posted by peep at 10:57 AM on January 5, 2005

odinsdream: You do realize there's a stream right there on that page ;)

Also, it's a Porcupine Tree song called "The Sound of Muzak," not this guy, who incidentally you can hear here.
posted by abcde at 10:57 AM on January 5, 2005

Did anyone see the college football national championship game? Ashlee Simpson was performing at halftime and she actually sung. The fans booed her off stage. She was terrible.
posted by j-urb at 10:59 AM on January 5, 2005

Ashlee Simpson was performing at halftime and she actually sung.

After the SNL debacle Ashley added a female keyboard player, who never appears to be playing keyboard. She does however sing along on the harder parts of Ashley Simpson songs *end music industry gossip*.
posted by drezdn at 11:01 AM on January 5, 2005

"Woke up this mornin' ..."
posted by Possum at 11:03 AM on January 5, 2005

Smells Like Teen Spirit and Heart Shaped Box are very similar songs, though it's not as much fun to poke fun at Nirvana as nickelback.

Though I think the bigger problem is just the overuse of the same production tecniques so there are no more "quiet" parts to song and it's all normalized to just one loud hum, it's probably another reasons a lot of songs sound the same.
posted by bobo123 at 11:04 AM on January 5, 2005

And to add another perspective, quite a bit of the best American popular music is built around the 12 bar blues progression. All you need to know is the key.

Going back to classical music, almost all of the dances (gavotte, minuet, waltz, polka) are built around a fairly strict structure. The chord progressions are important cues to starting and finishing the dance phrase.

Within many musical forms, the magic comes from what you can do to make a piece with a given structure unique. Sort of like poetry that way.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2005

Sounds eerily familiar.
posted by LukeyBoy at 11:08 AM on January 5, 2005

doesn't the matrix write everyone's songs now? and doesn't gwen stefani's new song sound exactly like hash pipe by weezer?
posted by eraserhed at 11:08 AM on January 5, 2005

Smells Like Teen Spirit and Heart Shaped Box are very similar songs.

Not so much to my ears. They also have completely different vibes to them. Were you thinking of "SLTS" and "Rape Me"? The choruses in those two have similar chord arrangements, but again, the similarity stops there.

What KirkJobSluder said.
posted by psmealey at 11:09 AM on January 5, 2005

LukeyBoy: Notice that I linked to the original thread.

That's one wasted snark, but I give you permission to use that line again next time there's an audio-related double post ;)
posted by abcde at 11:12 AM on January 5, 2005

The fans booed her off stage...
Because watching a trainwreck is always a good thing.
posted by togdon at 11:12 AM on January 5, 2005

psmealy....
The difference between Nickleback and AC/DC isn't in the limited structure and obvious arrangements, it's the fact that AC/DC did what they did when they did it. Back 80' when Back in Black came out, there was nothing more kick ass on the radio (mind you, I said radio). Sure they gnawed away at the same 'working' formula but that's the business. I could as easily see a King Crimson concert as I could an AC/DC one but I have to admit, I've seen Angus and crew over 7 times to Crimson's 2.

Nickleback isn't doing anything a hundred other bands aren't' doing and haven't been doing for a long time now. Their bass player is delusional to think they have some "unique" sound. Watch the singer split, form another band and 'BOOM'...Nickleback lives again.

"I think that's remarkable, for someone to notice that there's a 'hit quality.' If all hits sound the same, then sorry. When you are a band that has a distinct style, such as us, or AC/DC, that happens. When you have a distinct style, you run the risk of sounding similar."

What a dork. Hit songs sound the same because originality isn't rewarded on popular radio...obviousness is. On a local level, in a regular bar with regular equipment, you could substitute a myriad of bands for these guys, many of which would blow them off the stage.
posted by j.p. Hung at 11:13 AM on January 5, 2005

Jesus god thats bad oh my god blaaahhhhh.
posted by orange clock at 11:13 AM on January 5, 2005

Nickelback bassist, do not speak. Again. Ever.
posted by mek at 11:15 AM on January 5, 2005

abcde: Touché :-)
posted by LukeyBoy at 11:15 AM on January 5, 2005

Were you thinking of "SLTS" and "Rape Me"?

Whoops you're right that's what I was thinking of.
posted by bobo123 at 11:15 AM on January 5, 2005

eraserhed: Them and the Neptunes
posted by abcde at 11:15 AM on January 5, 2005

I haven't listened to the show (not gonna), but I did download the "How you remind me of someday" tracks. There's a fine, but extant difference between "writing the same song", and bolting the pieces on in a different order.

Escaping repetition is something a lot of artists deal with. I just found a Bob Dylan interview where he says (paraphrased) changing a songs key can be an artistic decision or merely an attempt at getting away from other material.

So while the accusation is not new ("writing the same song"+google=Vivaldi), I am irked by comparisons to artists who work within a limited palette.
posted by Jack Karaoke at 11:16 AM on January 5, 2005

In their defense, "Figured You Out" does have a different beat than the rest of their stuff. Not by much, but a little bit.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 11:17 AM on January 5, 2005

Their bass player is delusional to think they have some "unique" sound.

Amen. Can you distinguish Nickelback, Three Doors Down, Default, Staind , Puddle of Mudd and several dozen lesser known "nu metal" bands that have exactly the same sound? I can't.
posted by psmealey at 11:18 AM on January 5, 2005

LukeyBoy: Read the post -- the original thread was referred to directly in the FPP.
posted by ChrisR at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2005

I really think the software that writes the nickelback songs is the same software used for many other bands.

Nickelback isn't a band, there simply a packaged retail item from an enormous corporation, one that exploits the monopoly of corporate radio to shove it down the throats of 12 year olds around the country.

Insidious.
posted by orange clock at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2005

The Nickelback quote is incredibly disingenuous. These songs have the exact same chord progression and tempo and feel, something much more quantifiable (and easier to reproduce) than a "hit quality."

On the other hand, as this report points out, a lot of songs have the same chord progression. And this goes back a lot further into the history of music than most people realize. A lot of pop songs have more or less the same progression as Pachelbel's Canon in D (Green Day's "Basketcase," Blues Traveler's "Hook," etc.)

And yes, duh, there's more to music than the chord progression. Yeah, yeah, these songs have different melodies. Unfortunately, both of these melodies are boring, though they sound pretty good together.

It is possible to reuse the same chord progression artfully, and for an example I refer you to Modest Mouse's "The World at Large" and "Float On" -- same chord progression, but the two songs have completely different characters. The two songs are next to each other on the album and share some lyrical content, so you know it's deliberate.
posted by speicus at 11:23 AM on January 5, 2005

The comments to this post are eerily similar to the comments to the original thread. Only the names are different.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:27 AM on January 5, 2005

/sarcasm
Hey, but aren't they Canadian? That has to count for something.
posted by pmbuko at 11:27 AM on January 5, 2005

bluesky43, we can't help it if these threads have a certain hit quality.
posted by speicus at 11:30 AM on January 5, 2005

Isn't it more likely that the songwriters are just independently uncreative, and have so long steeped in the sounds of their sister bands that they simply cannot help but write eerily similar material? Why all this talk of corporate masterminds?

Although I had considered that an easy explanation would be that the separate bands have writers in common. No?

Anything that makes Ashlee Simpson or Avril Lavigignini not want to perform is a good thing.
posted by odinsdream at 11:39 AM on January 5, 2005

One fun pastime I used to indulge in when I was in radio was to sing the lyrics of "All That She Wants" from Ace of Base over "The Sign" from the same band, or vice versa. They just fit so perfectly.

Another was chucking random sound effects into the dead air space in "She's Got The Look" by Roxette, but that's another thread there.
posted by snarkywench at 11:40 AM on January 5, 2005

I thought "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was a rip of "More Than a Feeling"? After Banjo pointed that out to me, I cannot hear one without hearing the other.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2005

The ever-original, and terminally obscure band Johnny Socko one time had me rolling during a concert when the bassist hit a riff, and the lead singer, (who I've never seen perform in pants) belted out at least half of the Duran Duran greatest hits. Of course at the time, they also had a tendency to do "Variations on YMCA."
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:54 AM on January 5, 2005

Amen. Can you distinguish Nickelback, Three Doors Down, Default, Staind , Puddle of Mudd and several dozen lesser known "nu metal" bands that have exactly the same sound? I can't.

Nor I, but I suspect that this has to do with the fact that though they are of the same genre no doubt, it's a genre I don't take to and so would never commit to listening to each, much less comparing them to each other.

It reminds me of the flood of Pearl Jam bands that followed Pearl Jam. I've never been a fan of Pearl Jam but after listening to a couple of songs on the radio that my friend and I thought were Pearl Jam, being told that they weren't, and then listening to an actual Pearl Jam song afterward I can say that Pearl Jam are much better than the sub-genre they inspired. This is relevant how? I'm not sure? Is there an original nu-metal band perhaps that inspired the likes of Nickelback?

Always get a kick out of the Jam's Start when played back to back with the much earlier Beatles' Taxman...
posted by juiceCake at 12:03 PM on January 5, 2005

Ah, Snarkywench. Girly sounds from the 80s. Doesn't it just bring a tear to your eye? Especially as now I'll be going "LALALALA LA - SHE GOT THE LOOK!" all frickin' day! Heartless, Snarkywench, heartless.

At least Ace of Base had a purpose. You could put it on and clear a room.
posted by Sparx at 12:05 PM on January 5, 2005

I write songs on occasion, and I have two that are almost identical in chord progression but completely different in melody, words and tone. One is a novelty song (with a title suggested by a friend: "f*** like a brady") and one is a gentle ballad with nice harmonies (called "I get older"). I find myself constantly torn between the two, as I'm reluctant to call both "real" songs -- I keep changing my mind as to which is "real" and which is a throwaway that I'll never record.

The thing is, I wrote them on the same day, because something I tried for one song sounded completely inappropriate for it, but really really good, and I was reluctant to throw it away.

Honesty moment: if a record company said "you need 12 songs for this album", and I only had 10, I would absolutely throw these two songs into the mix, and pick up the check. ;)
posted by davejay at 12:05 PM on January 5, 2005

Another popular chord progression is the basic 1 3m 4 5 on which you can play everything from Stand By Me to I Don't Like Mondays. Just sayin'
posted by Sparx at 12:12 PM on January 5, 2005

For the naysayers, the software used for hits such as those from Norah Jones is called Hit Song Science.
posted by orange clock at 12:21 PM on January 5, 2005

Ever had the feeling you've been cheated?
posted by orange clock at 12:23 PM on January 5, 2005

Were you thinking of "SLTS" and "Rape Me"?

Whoops you're right that's what I was thinking of.

I think the similarity between those two was intentional.
posted by sad_otter at 12:23 PM on January 5, 2005

Anyone who's sung contemporary college a cappella (no snark, damn you!!) is intimately familiar with the repetition of melodies in pop songs. Laying songs with similar melodies over each other, or transitioning them into each other (see Stanford's Everyday People covering "No Diggity" and "Billie Jean" at the same time) is a time-honored tradition of the college a cappella scene. The Harvard Opportunes do a medley every year called "Let the Music Play," where they layer hit songs over a looped, vaguely choral version of "Let the Music Play."
posted by grrarrgh00 at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2005

"There is nothing new under the sun." -- and that was written ca. 2250 years ago.

In fairness, bands who have had some success, and are looking to continue, are between a rock and a hard place. If they evolve musically, they risk losing many of their fans. Some people who became Green Day fans with their early albums complain that their past few albums are less punk and more pop. But if they don't evolve, they stagnate. I like Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory, but I haven't bothered to buy Meteora because everything I've heard off of it sounds pretty much the same as Hybrid Theory. As far as I'm concerned, it would just be redundant to own both.

Certainly, as others have pointed out, stagnation is the easier path, but evolution is not without its risks as well.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2005

Nickelback isn't a band, there simply a packaged retail item from an enormous corporation, one that exploits the monopoly of corporate radio to shove it down the throats of 12 year olds around the country.

I'd just like to point out that, while Nickownaultaindle of Mudd are all pretty much the same unoriginal (if highly polished and packaged) cruft, the boys from Hanna were hardly 'manufactured' monkeys style. I did have the (trainwreckish) pleasure of seeing a previous incarnation of Nickelback live a couple times while passing through Hanna. The village being roughly 1/2 way between my home town and my university.

That being said $evil_corporate_entity_with_too_much_money is certainly the reason why the rest of the world gets to cringe along with the rest of southern Alberta.
posted by mce at 12:28 PM on January 5, 2005

And I don't get the Oasis/Green Day mash-up at all. Those songs don't sound similar to me, and I consider myself a fan of both artists.

Perhaps that's why. A person who doesn't like classical music will tell you that Bach and Vivaldi sound the same to him, while the classical buff can easily tell them apart. The expert oenophile can tell the 2000 Mouton Rothschild from the 2001, while the novice is doing well if he can tell Cabernet Sauvignon from Merlot.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:34 PM on January 5, 2005

Wow. We're still talking about this? ..okay. This is long and winded. I really don't care this time. I'd like to put an end to this dispute, but can't. So the best I can do is fillibuster until my fingers bleed. ...It's good to finally put a name to the effort. I didn't know until now that the guy who edited these two songs together was Mickey Smith. That's good to know I guess. May he live in interesting times.

We've been down this road before, countless times, and nothing's been done. Huey Lewis and the News' "I Wanna New Drug" and Ray Parker Jr's Ghostbuster Theme were fodder for lawyers for years. Their respective estates fought with one another over whether or not Parker stole elements from Lewis for his own pop song. Of course, Lewis stole everything from white pop artists of the fifties, who stole their sound from R&B/Soul performers of the time. Arguably, modern country has stolen everything from rock n roll to bluegrass. Original ideas do exist, but they are rarely accepted by the masses, so the corporate music industry repackages what sold before. Why? Because that's what sells. They're not in it for the art. They gotta put food on the table. You want art? You won't find it flying at your face without any effort. You have to look for real art. Top forty is not art, nor should it pretend to be. It's when someone like Ashlee Simpson calls herself an artist that I take umbrage and get my panties in a bunch, but though I used to wail and gnash my teeth at the storm, it was futile. There's simply people out there who want whatever it is the Nickelbacks and Simpsons of this planet provide, the music industry knows how to provide that in abundance. It's economics. It's not fraud, or is it?

You could probably take any two songs from the eighties group Air Supply and combine them, but no one's bothered to do that cuz, well hell it was Air Supply. Who would take the time? I may be the only person on the planet who still remembers them. I liked them back in the day, but the same way I liked bubble gum. I knew it was causing decay in my head but that's just what I wanted at the time.

If you listen closely to the recording of the two Nickelbacks combined, there's a couple places where the editor took some liberties. He cut out an 'oh yeah' here and there from one of them, and part of the second or third verse in the other appears to be missing from the other. I doubt if you took the original album recordings of both and did your own homemade version, you'd get the same exact result. Mickey Smith, the original editor, claims they are identical. They are not. The similarities are staggering, don't ge me wrong, but they're not the same song. He was trying to make a point, but had to cut out eight bars here and there to make it. So the two are not as identical as the combination recording suggests.

However, to many now, the verdict has been made. They are identical in the minds of most, because they won't bother to investigate further. This is why we decide guilt & innocence usually in a court of law rather than on the evening news or a community's town square. The masses are quick to judgment. I'm sure Ashlee Simpson's a nice girl once you get to know her. Jessica Simpson couldn't possibly be as dumb as she projects, because otherwise she'd forget how to breathe and die outright. Their personas however are shaped and molded as much by their audience as by their promoters, so who's the real artists here? The Simpson girls that we see are not artists. They are artworks, and the real artists are not the ones being praised, but the ones producing behind the scenes. Same with most artists or groups from the past thirty or forty years.

Nickelback is providing entertainment. That's their job. Personally, I think combining Someday with How You Remind Me improves both. If I heard that Nickelback was doing a live performance of both songs simultaneously, I'd consider buying a ticket. Imagine two different vocalists, each singing their own respective song, standing side by side as the band performed a sick recomposition of the two to make them sound alike. That'd be fun, but only if the artists were actually talented enough to pull it off.

I bet the Johns behind They Might Be Giants could take any two of their songs and combine them in a similar way, to perform live. Even if they're nothing alike. Why? Cuz the Johns are actually talented, and could do pretty much anything they set their mind to musically. Hell, they played with Doc Severinson. They can do anything.

It's the bigger picture that needs to be explored however. Not the picture that NPR explores, but the one that shows us there's a plain balding man behind the curtain at the tower of Oz. Several years ago we learned Milli Vanilli were just lip synching. It's pretty much assumed to be common knowledge now that any 'music artist' who dances while singing during his or her concerts is lip synching. The people who still think Madonna could dance and sing without losing her breath? Those are the ones the music industry is catering to today. Ashlee Simpson caught lip synching on SNL. Eminem caught lip synching a week later. The music industry produces what sells. Michael Jackson did great because of Quincy Jones' producing.

Is this fraud? Radio stations and CD companies sell the same stuff over and over. Greatest Hits collections are recombinations of old crap in a new package, perhaps with the inclusion of one or two new tracks to encourage people who bought all the other records so that they can say they have a complete collection. Is this fraud? Then the whole industry is fraud cuz for decades they've sold the same products in different mediums. From record to 8track to cassette to CD. Live performances from Laserdisc to VCR to DVD. They've gotten away with it thus far, and not privately. There's been people to report this fraudulent behavior every step of the way, yet no one's stopped them and the consumer still buys. Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute. I'd say there's a sucker born every 1.5 seconds on this planet. We're all suckers.

I listen to 'Drug' and the GB theme. I know that anyone with music experience can see similarities in their structure, but they're also so different in verse and content and styles and instrumentation... how could anyone see one is theft of another? And for people with disposable incomes only interested in being entertained, how could or why should they care? Unless you can make the argument itself entertaining, perhaps..

I doubt this will be the last word on the subject, but here's hoping. Don't like it? Don't listen. Ignore it. That's the extent of your personal power as a consumer. Stop supporting "people artworks" produced by men behind curtains. Don't care? More power to you, and thank you for helping to push the decline of modern human civilization back into the Dark Ages. Me and George Carlin are looking forward to the beginning of the end. Should be quite a fireworks display.
posted by ZachsMind at 12:36 PM on January 5, 2005

Anybody ever noticed the similarity between Offspring's "Get A Job" and The Beatles' "Ob-la-di Ob-la-da"?
posted by freakystyley at 12:41 PM on January 5, 2005

Only about 1780 other people.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:46 PM on January 5, 2005

As dearly as I cling to Everclear as the purveyors of my teenage angst, I can sing about four of their songs at once without ever committing to one in particular.

Regarding the Modest Mouse.
I think the whole point of that album (Good News For People Who Love Bad News) is in the reccuring themes, which explains both borrowed chord progressions and repeated lyrics from song to song. I only wish I had started liking them seven and a half years ago, when it was cool, as opposed to now, where I'm just another person in the audience who really hopes they'll play something new.
posted by redsparkler at 12:47 PM on January 5, 2005

I only wish I had started liking them seven and a half years ago, when it was cool

If you fall into the trap of thinking that only "cool" things are worthwhile, you're only cheating yourself. Just enjoy the music, and leave the obsessive self-analysis to teenage poets.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:53 PM on January 5, 2005

robocop is bleeding mentioned Green Day's Boulevard of Broken Dreams and Oasis' Wonderwall

Actually, when I first heard "Boulevard of Broken Dreams", I was sitting there, thinking, "Hmmm. Vocalist sounds familiar. Band sounds familiar. It's... yeah, okay. Same group that did that "Champagne Supernova" song. I'm sure of it."

Regarding the NPR piece: they ask, "is it possible to plagiarize yourself?" I can tell you that when I was in college, a young woman was called out by a professor for plagiarism because she turned in a paper that contained segments from a paper she'd submitted previously and she didn't cite the earlier work and/or indicate that she was quoting from it. Obviously academia plays by a different set of rules than the music industry, but still, I thought I'd share.
posted by Clay201 at 12:54 PM on January 5, 2005

redsparkler, you didn't miss anything. I've been saying for years that Modest Mouse wrote great 4 minute songs that were 8 minutes long. Now they finally made an album of 4 minutes songs, and it's near-perfect, so it's a good time to start listening.

Oh yeah, and Nickleback blows, whether their songs sound the same or not.

(As an aside, I got Karaoke Revolution for Christmas, and I'm very ashamed to say I got 100% while singing the Hoobastank song "The Reason". I'll go hang my head in shame now....)
posted by emptybowl at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2005

Isn't it more likely that the songwriters are just independently uncreative, and have so long steeped in the sounds of their sister bands that they simply cannot help but write eerily similar material? Why all this talk of corporate masterminds?

Often true. And sometimes you spend part of your efforts trying to write a *better* version of the same song... or sometimes you see one song as a variation on the theme presented in another...
posted by weston at 1:02 PM on January 5, 2005

ZachsMind: I think you're overestimating how seriously people take this. We don't think this is that much more disturbing than mere normal homogeneity of top-40 music, or portrays some deep corruption of the collective consciousness, but still it's amusing, especially the Avril Lavigne part.
posted by abcde at 1:04 PM on January 5, 2005

I was expecting them to be exactly the same. They aren't. They are just both equally boring. YAWN.

NEXT SONG!

NEXT SONG!
posted by Harry at 1:05 PM on January 5, 2005

redsparkler: Heh, I'm not too ashamed, because they're way better now than they were 7 years ago IMO.
posted by abcde at 1:05 PM on January 5, 2005

Nobody else seems to notice, but Los Lonely Boy's semi-hit "Heaven" is an inferior knockoff of Roy Buchanan's "Can I Change My Mind".
posted by euphorb at 1:17 PM on January 5, 2005

Sourwookie, I believe John Fogerty was sued because one of his solo songs sounded to much like a CCR song (even though he was part of CCR).

peep> That's exactly what I said. Maybe my phrasing was akward.


Pronoun trouble.
posted by sourwookie at 1:27 PM on January 5, 2005

Maybe all these bands are concerned about encountering a problem Neil Young faced in the 80s -- being sued by his label for producing music that didn't sound similar enough to music he'd made in the past. Of course, this was a guy who routinely recycled and stole melodies and song structures, even to the point of crediting the original once in the lyric and title ("I'm singing this borrowed tune/I took from the Rolling Stones", - Borrowed Tune, Tonight's the Night)
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 1:30 PM on January 5, 2005

I don't overestimate, Abcde. We're still talking about it. That alone says something.

Yes we're amused by it, but comedy always stems from some kind of tragedy, otherwise it's not funny. I quote from Mel Brooks like a mantra at times. I've mentioned this before as I'm getting a painful case of de ja vu but it seems necessary here: "Tragedy is I stub my toe, comedy is you fall in a manhole and die." All comedy stems from this reasoning. It's why when someone else slips on a banana peel we laugh, but when we slip on a banana peel we wince from the pain.

We can opt to wax dismissive at Nickelback, provided we don't find them artists anyway. We can imagine them as wannabes and charlatans, but if you asked them directly they'd see a totally different, subjective point of view. I bet Ashlee Simpson imagines herself to be an artist. I'd laugh if I ever heard her quoted with such a sentiment. Reality is so beautifully subjective.

Personally (and others may argue) I find Sting's revisitations of his own earlier works to be a form of self-masterbatory aristry. I particularly like how his live performance of Roxanne back in 2001 (All This Time album) sounds more wistful and conjures images of a red light district, while the original Police version (Outlandos d'Amour circa 1978) lacks such mind's eye paintings and encompasses a more immature angst and idealism. Was the older and more mature Sting plaigarising himself? Perhaps, but he did so with arguably more success. Could one take the two versions and combine them as Mikey Smith did with Nickelback? Hardly. Still, one could arguably accuse Sting of similar 'fraud' and to me, such comparison would lack any humor.

So Nickelback took something that worked for them before and used it again. Is it worth such scrutiny, even with tongue in cheek? If it were dismissive, we'd speak as much about Nickelback as we do Air Supply. We do not, so this oversensitivity to Nickelback's alleged crime does echo a greater seriousness. They've obviously struck a nerve, however unintentionally. People have noticed here, while elsewhere similar 'fraud' has gone unnoticed.

Surely much of Morrissey's efforts both pre and post The Smiths suffers from similar similarities, because all his music sounds the same, but this has not been put under the same microscope as Nickelback. Is it like speeding? That Nickelback got caught cutting corners artistically while other artists did not? Is it only a crime when you get caught, when speeding? No. It's a crime whether you get caught or not. However, Nickelback gets a metaphorical ticket, while Morrissey just got a brief attempt at a comeback coupled with inevitable obsurity.

Or is this all symptomatic of a greater crime to which we the consumers of modern music have become unwitting accomplises; dupes if you will? I mean, at whom are we really laughing?

I don't particularly like or dislike either Nickelback song separately, but I have to admit listening to both together is more compelling and thought provoking. Perhaps this Mikey Smith character is the only true artist in this scenario? ..If we're just poking fun at the music industry here, I'm hard pressed to find the punchline to this sorry joke. When do we start laughing?
posted by ZachsMind at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2005

Either legalize sampling or make this shit illegal. Thats my word.
posted by 31d1 at 1:48 PM on January 5, 2005

Nickelback has more than two songs? Wow, coulda fooled me.

Anyway, I just wanted to comment on the Ashlee Simpson Orange Bowl performance. I saw a moment of it (luckily I had the volume muted) and started laughing at her. How this idiot with no talent became a "star" is crazy. A bowling ball with two holes has more talent than she does.

And damn she is one ugly bitch. When are they going to South Park her?
posted by fenriq at 1:50 PM on January 5, 2005

The subject of ripping off others' songs (rather than your own, which is what this thread is primarily about) is amusingly touched on in the Harvery Birdman Shoyu Weenie episode.

Wow. We're still talking about this? ..okay. This is long and winded. I really don't care this time. I'd like to put an end to this dispute, but can't.

What dispute?
posted by juiceCake at 2:08 PM on January 5, 2005

I'll play along: Crowded House: "Better Be Home Soon" & The Verve: "The Drugs Don't Work".
posted by obloquy at 2:09 PM on January 5, 2005

The new U2 is a sad and pathetic rip-off of old U2.

which was itself sad and pathetic. why, U2 *defined* sad and pathetic in the 80's, and they're still the best at it.
posted by quonsar at 2:10 PM on January 5, 2005

All this reminds me of my husband's fallback song to play while one of his bandmates was tuning; the lyrics to Gilligan's Island set to the tune of "Stairway to Heaven." "3-hour tour" took on sudden Shades of Meaning, and it rocked.
posted by emjaybee at 2:12 PM on January 5, 2005

"increasing homogeneity in the North American" something-or-other. The musical canon, or something.

holy shit, this is a good day! i'm being lectured about pop culture by someone who never saw ed sullivan.
posted by quonsar at 2:14 PM on January 5, 2005

Eminem caught lip synching a week later.

I'd just like to point out that he was not really lip-synching. "Mosh" has a dual vocal track, and both vocals are his, so it's impossible to re-create it without using a backing track or a chorus, and the latter might not be the right sound. This was also the reason given by his label, but I had come to this conclusion when I saw him on the show. His own voice was coming through loud and clear, but it was accompanied by a second track and both were delayed, making it appear at one point as if he weren't singing when the delay hasn't decayed, yet. But it's an effect and production technique used live, and he's not trying to fake anything. There is no real reason for him to lip-synch anyway. He's not really worried about not being able to hit a note.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:16 PM on January 5, 2005

Leonard Rosenman reuses the bridge from his The Lord of the Rings theme (Bakshi animated) in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home to a large degree.

Eh. Who cares. If the fans dig it, then let them buy it. The original editor took liberties, and also sounds a bit daft at the mention of the word "fraud".

Hell, 100 years ago folks were taking popular tunes and writing all sorts of new songs out of them.

God save our gracious Queen/My country 'tis of thee
To Anacreon in Heaven, where he sat in full glee/Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
posted by linux at 2:17 PM on January 5, 2005

seawallrunner: yawn - this reminds me of a comedy act from Australia, on Just For Laughs, where two women sing two Britney Spears hits together.

Your thinking of Super-Girly And it is pretty funny.
posted by Mitheral at 2:19 PM on January 5, 2005

What about the voice of Geddy Lee?
posted by bardic at 2:27 PM on January 5, 2005

How did it get so high?
posted by juiceCake at 2:34 PM on January 5, 2005

I'll play: 4 Non-Blondes' "What's Up" completely, utterly rips off Bobby McFerrin's "Don't Worry Be Happy." How they didn't get sued I have no idea.

Ace of Base, mentioned earlier, did the same thing over and over again -- reggae-ish beat, keyboard riff, structure. Equally annoying, but they didn't attempt to gloss it over with hogwash about "hit quality" or whatever.
posted by schoolgirl report at 2:39 PM on January 5, 2005

The "amazing similarities" between the Green Day & Oasis songs provoked an excellent mash-up titled "Boulevard of Broken Songs" which was recently available here.

(If not there check the threads on gybo.org.)
posted by juanjamon at 2:46 PM on January 5, 2005

On the subject of Sting (that Zachsmind mentioned earlier), I love how he explicitly reference earlier works. From how "Dead Man's Rope" references "Walking in your footsteps" to the fact that a good 483 Sting songs have the lyric "Do I have to tell the story, or a thousand rainy days since we first met / it's a big enough umbrella, but its always me that ends up getting wet"

(Not to mention the song (forgetting which one) where he fades out with lyrics like "Every cake you bake....")
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:47 PM on January 5, 2005

oh, and then go compare the score for Star Trek II with that for Aliens.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:50 PM on January 5, 2005

Thank you ZachsMind.

I think you take pop culture too seriously. I know I do.
posted by hoskala at 2:51 PM on January 5, 2005

And Greenday ripped a lot off The Kinks .. la de freaking da. This could go on forever.
posted by vodkadin at 3:12 PM on January 5, 2005

Many are missing the aggregate: the Ramones played the same song over and over. Many band rip off other bands.

But many bands sound the same (Modest Mouse, see above) and others rip off other bands, but what we are speaking of is (wait for it. . .) artistic integrity.

Nickelback are not artists. They are rip off confidence men playing the corporate fiddle for your daughter's allowance.

Bonus question: What happen to generation X?
Answer: That monkey's gone to heaven.
posted by orange clock at 3:16 PM on January 5, 2005

Part of ZachsMind's point is that Nickelback value themselves as entertainers and probably are not too offended at the idea of repeating themselves, but the bassist's remarks could lend weight to the "we're artists" side.
posted by abcde at 3:33 PM on January 5, 2005

"Freeeeeeeeeeebirrrrrrrrrrrd!" (holds lighter aloft)
posted by reidfleming at 3:45 PM on January 5, 2005

I just feel sorry for the guy for whom every new song sounds like Nickleback. The world must be a nightmare for him. It's like that old cliche of madness where the face of every person becomes the face of the madman's supposed persecutor.

"Hey Bill... Listen to this new song. "
"Arghhhh. Nickleback" / runs away clutching head in hands.
posted by seanyboy at 3:52 PM on January 5, 2005

Me thinks somebody at NPR has discovered blogdex or sumpin. Or maybe they are just trying to make their Total Fark subscription tax deductible.

On the subject, here are both songs on left/right channel, allowing you to fade one in the other out.

That being said, nothing to see here folks, move along.
posted by spock at 4:12 PM on January 5, 2005

This uses a slider in Shockwave to juxtapose compare the Nickelback songs.. it really is pretty scary.
posted by anarcation at 4:13 PM on January 5, 2005

snap
posted by seanyboy at 4:41 PM on January 5, 2005

Evermore's "It's too late" is 50% Coldpay's "Clocks" and 50% Violent Femmes' "Blister in the Sun".

Er, anyone else notice?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 5:16 PM on January 5, 2005

The White Stripes "Fell in love with a girl" vs The Buzzcocks "Ever fallen in love with someone" - I can't be the only one to notice this.
posted by X-00 at 6:11 PM on January 5, 2005

Coldplay.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:20 PM on January 5, 2005

This uses a slider in Shockwave to juxtapose compare the Nickelback songs.. it really is pretty scary.

They're almost the exact same duration, too?!

I'd love for some radio station to actually play this 50/50 mix all the way through some time. If you aren't paying much attention, you won't even notice. Is there a slider for playing Avril's song on top of one of these two? That was the most entertaining part of the NPR piece for me.
posted by odinsdream at 7:02 PM on January 5, 2005

Um, Modest Mouse's "Float On" sounds a lot like U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday." Or am I completely off base?
posted by Charlie Bucket at 10:45 PM on January 5, 2005

What I thought was funny about the lawsuit against John Fogerty was that they picked one particular CCR song, when they all sound exactly the same.

Belinda Carlisle's "Heaven is a Place on Earth" is the same song as Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer"
posted by kirkaracha at 7:00 AM on January 6, 2005

After listening to the NPR piece, I had that "ohmygod, get that song out of my head" thing happen to me all day (this is how you remind me....).

Maybe it's just me. Or maybe those eerily similar songs are eerily similar because they echo in people's heads until they are pummeled into buying the CD.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:37 AM on January 6, 2005

Ooh! Oooh! Can I play?

Warrant's "Down Boys" and The Cars' "Bye Bye Love."

Also, I can't believe no one's mentioned Britney Spears' "Baby One More Time" and "Oops I Did It Again."
posted by SisterHavana at 9:51 AM on January 6, 2005

All that remains is for a pioneering creative genius to multitrack Shoyu Weenie's "Mochi Mochi" and Jabberjaw
& The Neptunes' "Lovey Lovey."
posted by basilwhite at 10:29 AM on January 6, 2005

Actually, SisterHavana, seawallrunner did mention those songs near the top of the thread.

The Aussie comedy duo you're referring to, seawallrunner, is SuperGirly. the website sucks, but the act is good. They do a terrific rendition of those 2 Britney Spears songs as a duet that is fall-down funny. You can listen to or watch it here.
posted by raedyn at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2005

Ever had the feeling you've been cheated?

What do you want — your nickel back?
posted by bwg at 5:20 AM on January 7, 2005

Let rock DIE already.
posted by HTuttle at 12:34 AM on January 9, 2005

Although the songs aren't AS close I noticed the same thing between Default's hit "Wasting Time" and Billy Gilman's hit "One Voice" a few years back and spent a little time putting them together as Mikey did. Mikey did a much better job but I though someone might be interested so take a listen if you want. Sorry for the low quality....
posted by Urgo at 9:46 AM on January 9, 2005

It's merely the audio equivalent of 'it tastes like chicken'.
posted by humannature at 11:04 AM on January 9, 2005