what gives you the right to post this here?
*glares angrily*
posted by quonsar at 12:13 PM EST on January 31
I quit. I can't believe quonsar is allowed to post. Fresh drivel all around! posted by orange clock at 9:17 AM on January 31, 2005
Newflash: American high school students are ignorant dipshits. posted by psmealey at 9:23 AM on January 31, 2005
Considering I find 2/3rds of high school students just barely on this side of retarded, this is a welcome suprise.... posted by herting at 9:25 AM on January 31, 2005
It reminds me of that SNL skit (from the mid to late 80s) where it's a TV Quiz show, but the "correct" answers aren't based on reality, but what the average american high school student thinks the answer is. posted by stifford at 9:31 AM on January 31, 2005
"36% think newspapers should not be allowed to publish without government approval."
I don't even know how to process this. What are (aren't?) they teaching these kids in school? What, they want Pravda and Gosizdat? posted by exlotuseater at 9:31 AM on January 31, 2005
Here are some particularly revealing questions from the survey:
44. Musicians should be allowed to sing songs with lyrics that others might find offensive.
40% Strongly agree
30 Mildly agree
14 Mildly disagree
7 Strongly disagree
9 Don’t know
45. Newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of a story.
24% Strongly agree
27 Mildly agree
22 Mildly disagree
14 Strongly disagree
13 Don’t know
46. High school students should be allowed to report controversial issues in their student newspapers without the approval of school authorities.
30% Strongly agree
28 Mildly agree
18 Mildly disagree
11 Strongly disagree
13 Don’t know
(And incidentally, whoever formatted the web page with the survey results should be double-columned shot.)
40% of these students thunk Justin Timberlake should be allowed to sing "I want you in my 'backstreet', boys!", 30% think they should be able to write in their school papers that "Ms. Krabappel Sucks, dude!", but only 24% think that "Dan Rather and the liberal media" should be publishing stories "that don't support our troops".
One obvious interpretation is that for most kids,
listening to music that is "cool" serves to prove membership in the peer group is more fundamental to them than
their own expression, which is more fundamental to them than
civic involvement or freedom for people they don't know personally;
or more succinctly, most kids, just like most people, are selfish and concerned with their own needs and pleasures far more than with abstract issues like "freedom" or "justice". posted by orthogonality at 9:40 AM on January 31, 2005
Every single "high school students say" poll I've ever read has been ridiculous. "5 out of 6 high school students couldn't tell the difference between Mickey Mouse and Richard Nixon!" "80% of high school students polled couldn't find Detroit on a map!" Call me crazy, but it seems as though some of these high school kids started taking polls a lot less seriously since I was in high school. We never would've marked down that we thought that Leon Trotsky was god, and that Jesus Christ was born in the back of a semi heading down I-70 toward Chicago.
We need to teach our kids that $1,000,000 studies into their perceptions matter. They're much more important, for example, than paying teachers more. posted by koeselitz at 9:42 AM on January 31, 2005
[on preview: what orthogonality said.] posted by koeselitz at 9:45 AM on January 31, 2005
I don't even know how to process this. What are (aren't?) they teaching these kids in school? What, they want Pravda and Gosizdat?
They're teaching them that the First Amendment applies to everyone except themselves, whose school newspapers can be and are censored explicitly on a regular basis and who are routinely disciplined for political, cultural, and moral opinions. I can't say I blame students for feeling a bit of bitterness toward those whose rights they are expected to defend while having none themselves.
It's the height of naivete to spend 18+ years teaching kids that they need to keep their mouths shut and spit out the party line on demand and then expect them to turn around and embrace free speech and independent thought overnight. posted by IshmaelGraves at 9:45 AM on January 31, 2005
Here are some particularly revealing questions from the survey:
Heh. The bottom line is that if the Washington Post has a controversial story to publish, they'll get more support by doing it in a high school newspaper instead. posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:46 AM on January 31, 2005
I found this sequence of questions particularly interesting:
42. People should be allowed to express unpopular opinions.
51% Strongly agree
43. People should be allowed to burn or deface the American flag as a political statement.
63 Strongly disagree
We support people's right to express unpopular opinions, except the ones I disagree with. posted by hupp at 9:48 AM on January 31, 2005
I don't even know how to process this.
Remember what television and other media, and the kids themselves, have worked very hard to make us forget: teenagers are still children who are unduly influenced by the opinions of the media, their parents, and their peers. Some kids learn to think (mostly) for themselves early on, some later in life, and some never. posted by davejay at 9:48 AM on January 31, 2005
I wouldn't be surprised if the results were the same or if it leaned even more towards government censorship in an adult poll. "they shouldn't say bad things about the president. I mean, it's... the PRESIDENT!" posted by Arch Stanton at 9:48 AM on January 31, 2005
I think my favorite statistic in there was that 75% of the principals wanted to censor their school newspapers.
Congratulations! Every one of you who Agreed with that just utterly invalidated every other pro-Rights answer you might have given previously. Saying the government can't censor MEANS YOU TOO.
(well, except for the ones at private schools, I suppose...) posted by InnocentBystander at 9:54 AM on January 31, 2005
Orthogonality demonstrates great insight into the human condition. He (assuming he's a he) sounds like the kind of person (ideally) hired, for major dollars, to properly construct polls and analyze their data.
Especially noteworthy is his analysis of what music REALLY means to certain groups, particularly teens. It's the secret handshake to a certain tribe, which is why adults (almost) never 'get' their kids' music. They're not SUPPOSED to. Sad that so many parents never come to understand this simple fact. posted by humannature at 9:55 AM on January 31, 2005
Perhaps the Resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue should get one kick in the balls for every time he's uttered the word "freedom".
Does that mean I don't support free speech? posted by VP_Admin at 9:55 AM on January 31, 2005
what gives you the right to post this here?
*glares angrily*
posted by quonsar at 12:13 PM EST on January 31
I quit. I can't believe quonsar is allowed to post. Fresh drivel all around!
orange clock, while I could be wrong, I think you're missing the point of what quonsar was saying. I think he was framing his comment the way a censor would say it. But again, I might be wrong. posted by John of Michigan at 9:56 AM on January 31, 2005
It's the height of naivete to spend 18+ years teaching kids that they need to keep their mouths shut and spit out the party line on demand and then expect them to turn around and embrace free speech and independent thought overnight.
Amen. High school is kindergarten with bigger chairs. It makes no goddam sense at all. posted by argybarg at 9:57 AM on January 31, 2005
John,
I do believe you're missing sarcasm all around. posted by argybarg at 9:58 AM on January 31, 2005
*loquacious double-adjusts John of Michigan's sarcasm detector with the clue-by-four of doom.* posted by loquacious at 9:58 AM on January 31, 2005
From that "reported" link:
"In the war-torn Middle East, those students-soon-to-be-soldiers will face enemy insurgents who want to shoot them, bomb them or behead them, simply because those fanatics hate our open society. They loathe our music and art...."
I thought the Iraqi insurgents wanted to shoot, bomb, or behead U.S. soldiers to make the U.S. stop occupying their country. posted by davy at 9:59 AM on January 31, 2005
Okay, okay. Usually I hand out the sarcasm, so I'm not that well-tuned when others use it. Clue-by-four of doom. I'll have to remember that.
Slightly off topic, my students and I are reading The Censor, a story by Argentinian author Luisa Valenzuela, and I was scouring the Internets this morning looking for a site like the one odinsdream posted.
Anyway, it's a pretty good--and brief--read about censorship.
Newflash: American high school students are ignorant dipshits.
NewSflash: There are always pearls among swine. posted by Hands of Manos at 10:08 AM on January 31, 2005
Just for our "music" and "art" alone, we probably deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth, Sturgeon's Law or no.
American Idol, Survivor, Britney Spears and Gigli should be cause enough, not to mention the unrelenting tide of spectacular crapflooding that comes out of Hollywood on a day to day basis. Hell, it's almost enough to make me think that becoming a suicide bomber is a valid option. posted by loquacious at 10:08 AM on January 31, 2005
orange clock, while I could be wrong, I think you're missing the point of what quonsar was saying. I think he was framing his comment the way a censor would say it. But again, I might be wrong.
does this go to ObviousFilter or ObliviousFilter? posted by Outlawyr at 10:12 AM on January 31, 2005
Actually, I just read an article (published in an actual jounal, no online copy I can link to, sorry), that argues quite well that High Schools do a really poor job of teaching civics by example. Students are given a set of rules that are largely arbitrary, and sometimes vague, then asked to sign that they've read and understood the rules with minimum discussion.
The article's conclusion is that schools are less about teaching kids how to be part of a democratic system, but how to respond to authoritarianism. posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:15 AM on January 31, 2005
Clearly we need to bring back Schoolhouse Rock. My generation learned the preamble of the US Constitution by singing it; it could work again. 10 videos -- one for each Amendment in the Bill of Rights; how hard can it be? posted by jscalzi at 10:15 AM on January 31, 2005
I think koeselitz is about right. Surveys are stupid, so let's have some fun! So says the typical high school student. posted by panoptican at 10:24 AM on January 31, 2005
When you were in high school how serious would you have taken this survey?.
So I doubt this survey is factual realizing you're dealing with teens giving their opinions. Think about it, you're asking people who many of them are in their rebellious years thus not really giving a damn.
Being a poll worth no grade any answer would be correct, Right? So taking this into account, many students probably just marked the answers with out reading the questions.
Bet the survey was as in-class assignment in US Government taken by Seniors and when you finished your time was free to do as you wished. So they probably breezed through it with only a few taking it seriously.
Sign name
Question 1, A
Question 2, A
Question 3, A
ect... posted by thomcatspike at 10:28 AM on January 31, 2005
The article's conclusion is that schools are less about teaching kids how to be part of a democratic system, but how to respond to authoritarianism.
That's very interesting, and sounds accurate. posted by ludwig_van at 10:34 AM on January 31, 2005
This comes as no surprise at all.
When a student's locker can be opened for search and seizure without consent, and s/he can't publish anything critical in a school newspaper, why should the average student put any faith in the sanctity of the rest of the Constitution?
America reaps what it sows. posted by AlexReynolds at 10:38 AM on January 31, 2005
What is wrong with kids today? When I was in high school -- recently enough -- I think we all had a strong sense that the arbitrary rules imposed on us were not the way things ought to work. I don't think anyone I knew would ever, for even a moment, consider that the press or media ought to require government approval or that anything ought to be censored. posted by uncleozzy at 10:58 AM on January 31, 2005
5 out of 6 high school students couldn't tell the difference between Mickey Mouse and Richard Nixon!
42. People should be allowed to express unpopular opinions.
51% Strongly agree
Oh, that was a typo.
The question was originally worded:
"42. Unpopular people should be allowed to express opinions."
And as we all know unpopular people are icky and stupid and ugly and don't go to prom.
Who cares what THEY think. Like. Duh. posted by tkchrist at 11:14 AM on January 31, 2005
The article's conclusion is that schools are less about teaching kids how to be part of a democratic system, but how to respond to authoritarianism.
That's very interesting, and sounds accurate.
I agree with this. At some schools there are overtly despotic conditions, and I'm not really saying this in a teen-angst kind of way or from a teen-angst sort of place. There was plenty of teen-angst elsewhere.
Examples abound, including squashing valid student self-expression and freedom of speech, punitive bureaucracy, marginalization, violations of privacy, and outright abuse and verbal or physical violence and more. I have personal experiences or observed experiences in all of the above catagories from the high school I attended.
It wouldn't surprise me at all that these conditions were mandated by or derived from the government, intentionally or not. The fact that it is mandatory and the majority of the population attends state-run schools makes it even more suspicious.
Before one should run pell-mell to the tinfoil haberdashery, consider that the form and function of any given organization or system could be influenced by it's parent organization or system with or without overt will, intent or design, even perhaps merely through the inference and the transfer of well known ideas, methods, functions, and systems. Like begets like.
The problem is that it is even a problem, and that it is no way to build people, or as thy are called, adults. It's no way to learn or grow. We learn and grow through experimentation and invention, not by regurgitating the status quo and parroting the party line. posted by loquacious at 11:14 AM on January 31, 2005
Outlawyr: Bite me, bite me very much. posted by John of Michigan at 11:17 AM on January 31, 2005
John of Michigan: Sorry, I meant to include this in my last post.
Clue-by-four. Heh.
Sorry, that was a little rough for the horsing around it was meant to be. posted by loquacious at 11:21 AM on January 31, 2005
loquacious: "We learn and grow through experimentation and invention, not by regurgitating the status quo and parroting the party line."
I guess I don't really understand this. A lot of people here seem to be saying that American high schools are fascist dictatorships. Maybe I thought that when I was in high school, but is it really true? When I think back, the only "criminal" things I can remember my principle doing are things like disallowing slander to be published in the school paper and requiring that we get to class on time. High school kids want to destroy everything and get away with it-- rebellion is in the nature of youth, I guess. But if I had been allowed to do half the things I tried to, I would've been unhappy for a long time afterward.
Isn't authority at least sometimes good? posted by koeselitz at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2005
I don't think the question is about the rightness or wrongness of 'authority' but the possibility that the implementation of said 'authority' isn't in-line with teaching children about freedom and democracy. As we all know, democracy in the real world doesn't give everyone a blank check in the department of morality and the laws of a state espousing democracy generally include punishment for infractions of the law along with the "rights" given to the citizens.
Shouldn't this be taught to the children as well? If they grow up *with* democratic principles in action they should grow up to appreciate those principles more, having tasted them first-hand. With forceful authoritarianism justified because of their age and our place of power all that is taught is either an understanding that obedience to authority trumps any so-called rights or that the only way to react is to rebel in a destructive manner. posted by melt away at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2005
I agree with koeselitz, thomcatspike & panoptician-- high school students don't exactly take surveys seriously. I know my friends & I didn't. We were always trying to 'bias the findings.'
But let's assume for a minute that even a few U.S. high school students don't like the freedoms that are supposedly guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. constitution. That's fine--if they think there's too much freedom in the U.S., there are many, many other countries they could move to once they graduate. I say this not as a fevered sweaty-browed 'Love It or Leave It!' red white & blue bumpersticker type, but as someone who strongly believes in these Velvet Underground lyrics:
Oh I do believe
If you don't like things you leave
For some place you've never gone before. posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:30 PM on January 31, 2005
These results aren't really surprising. Disappointing as ever, yes, but not surprising.
Given the choice, most people would make it illegal to do anything they personally do not approve of (gay marriage, swearing, anything that might call for the wrath of God). Civil liberties are just not a concern, for some reason. This is why democracy is a flawed concept... a model other than 'majority rule' is badly needed.
This is exactly why the Constitution exists. It's well-researched and well-thought out, and it's hard to change (perhaps not hard enough). Fortunately, none of these kids is going to start a campaign to repeal the 1st amendment, primarily because apathy is even more powerful than ignorance. posted by knave at 12:49 PM on January 31, 2005
Actually, I just read an article (published in an actual jounal, no online copy I can link to, sorry), that argues quite well that High Schools do a really poor job of teaching civics by example.
Even if there's no link, could you give a citation? I have pretty good academic access and would be interested in reading that. posted by claxton6 at 12:50 PM on January 31, 2005
I asked my students today some of the questions on the poll. They generally agreed that unpopular speech should be protected, but many did not see burning a flag as speech, comparing it to killing a person.
I asked them if destroying an Ashlee Simpson CD, purchased with one's own money, was the same as hurting Ashlee Simpson and they agreed that it was not. I then asked them about the proper way of disposing of a damaged flag - the Boy and Girl Scouts dutifully answered "burning it."
Having agreed that burning a flag without a political objective is all right, and having established that damaging an object related to a person was not the same as damaging the person, most of them agreed that (while flag burning bothered them personally) it was, indeed, a form of unpopular political expression and should probably be protected.
I soap boxed for a moment and said that it was a kind of stupid form of political protest since it typically took attention away from the thing that was being protested.
Anyhow, the confusion, I think, arises from the word "speech" and its definition. posted by Joey Michaels at 12:51 PM on January 31, 2005
Examples abound, including squashing valid student self-expression and freedom of speech, punitive bureaucracy, marginalization, violations of privacy, and outright abuse and verbal or physical violence and more
Ack, the smart students would have never divulged their full knowledge on the survey if they realized knowledge is power. posted by thomcatspike at 1:02 PM on January 31, 2005
Questioning the first amendment... you better believe that's a paddlin'. posted by papakwanz at 1:28 PM on January 31, 2005
"42. Unpopular people should be allowed to express opinions."
But how do they get to be unpopular in the first place? E.g., on the Internet nobody knows I'm fat and ugly with really thick glasses. At least my mama quit dressing me funny, now I do it myself. posted by davy at 1:49 PM on January 31, 2005
davy, your unpopularity has nothing to do with appearance.
FuzzyMonster - Your right. Remember the big hubbub over that teen sex survey last year? Well the sample was pretty flawed to start with but also most those kids were probably lying through their teeth... if you did the math those kids would be getting/giving like three blow jobs a day or something.
Personally I think it seems more natural for kids to be anti-authoritarian. Kids like this seem alien to me.
When I was in highschool in the 1970's we were reactionary to the other extreme. Everything was an infringement on our rights (of course the the Draft was still fresh in our minds back then). Life was so melodramatic.
Maybe kids need time to change their minds about what is "a sacred truth" a couple of times before they can develop workable core principles.
[Abe Simpson voice] Them darn kids. With the Snoop Diggity Dog and the Brittany... with the "baby, baby, baby", and the Jesus worship and the conformity... It's all go'n ta hell! posted by tkchrist at 2:44 PM on January 31, 2005
What I find troubling is what is found by following smackfu's link to the survey and looking at faculty responses.
45. What is the highest level of education that you have attained?
41 Bachelors
52 Masters
33. People should be allowed to express unpopular opinions.
72% Strongly agree
25 Mildly agree
34. People should be allowed to burn or deface the American flag as a political statement.
15% Strongly agree
13 Mildly agree
11 Mildly disagree
59 Strongly disagree
35. Musicians should be allowed to sing songs with lyrics that others might find offensive.
28% Strongly agree
30 Mildly agree
19 Mildly disagree
21 Strongly disagree
WTF???!!!??!?!!! posted by Bort at 2:57 PM on January 31, 2005
Bort, good call. It just shows that it has nothing to do with kid/adult... Everyone's stupid. posted by knave at 3:09 PM on January 31, 2005
I say we dust off, nuke the site from orbit.
Only way to be sure. posted by cosmonik at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2005
Could it be that the lack of a solid 'liberal arts' education is to blame? Art, music, physical education and journalism classes are being cut everywhere. Do they even teach civics anymore?
I ran an underground newspaper in college back in the early 1990's. Our biggest critics were our fellow students. The faculty were thrilled someone was writing and putting together thoughts.
School boards are fighting over 'intelligent design' instead of worrying about the absolute suck of what kids learn today. posted by UseyurBrain at 3:15 PM on January 31, 2005
if you did the math those kids would be getting/giving like three blow jobs a day or something.
Ahh, high school... posted by monocyte at 3:37 PM on January 31, 2005
and s/he can't publish anything critical in a school newspaper [...]
I can see the case for censoring a school newspaper. If the school pays for part of it or lends its facilities or even its name to the paper, the school should have something to say about what goes in it. If I work at Disney Corp, I can't use their computers and printers to publish a paper without their consent. Also, I can't call it the Disney Times and write whatever I want in it. posted by Triplanetary at 4:43 PM on January 31, 2005
It reminds me of that SNL skit (from the mid to late 80s) where it's a TV Quiz show, but the "correct" answers aren't based on reality, but what the average american high school student thinks the answer is.
Better yet stifford, if reminds me of Ben Stiller's sketch on the B- Time Traveller. posted by cgk at 5:28 PM on January 31, 2005
5 out of 6 high school students couldn't tell the difference between Mickey Mouse and Richard Nixon!
There's a difference?
Yes, one is still the leader of the 'free' world. posted by Eideteker at 5:50 PM on January 31, 2005
Mickey Mouse is the leader of the free world?
...
I guess it makes sense. Count on all his idiotic supporters to put the "M" bumper stickers on upside down. posted by koeselitz at 5:54 PM on January 31, 2005
America is less about the right to free speech and more about the right to own the biggest SUV. We have given up our rights as citizens for the pleasures of being consumers. They don't teach civics anymore but they do teach interest rates. And not enough people care to fight back. posted by jsares at 11:09 PM on January 31, 2005
jsares is unfortunately right on. Most Americans hate freedom. posted by davy at 11:38 PM on January 31, 2005
When I heard this on NPR driving home last night, my first thought was 'this has to have a flawed polling pool' but then they mentioned the 100,000+ sample and I was shocked. My freshman year in HS was mostly spent doing volunteer work for the local Democratic party to get Clinton elected the first time...the rest of the time was spent pushing the boundries of school 'censorship'. We were successful in completely changing the format of the school paper and yearbook to be less of what the teachers in charge wanted, and more what the students wanted. The Bad Religion 'no crosses' t-shirt got me sent to the principals office by an offended teacher...I was able to wear it by pointing out that if they censored my shirt, they would have to censor all the 'god is great' shirts a large percentage of students wore.
It does seem that HS students today are not being taught the important lessons about thinking for themselves about the greater issues at hand. I had several amazing and passionate civic/gov't teachers that made damn sure we knew about things like this and were able to come up with our own positions.
btw, I did watch SchoolhouseRock growing up and I completely agree this needs to be brought back in some form to the classroom. posted by gren at 6:06 AM on February 1, 2005
cosmonik, what was that all about? Certainly in this thread, and especially before your little bait, davy wasn't at all a twit. Indeed, his comment on Iraq was bang-on. What on earth is your slam against him supposed to mean? posted by five fresh fish at 10:19 AM on February 1, 2005
The Knight Foundation is no longer trustworthy?!
Oh David Hasselhoff, how you have disappointed me! posted by papakwanz at 8:35 PM on February 1, 2005
Subscribe
*glares angrily*
posted by quonsar at 9:13 AM on January 31, 2005