Don't Vote Your Conscience, Vote HIP!

February 5, 2005 9:09 PM

Yulia Timoshenko (her personal website) is the new premier of Ukraine (bio). She is the hippest politician I've ever laid my eyes on. Here is a picture of her giving a speech to the Ukrainian parliament when it approved her nomination to the premiership. Here's another picture of her being insufferably hip. Russia has issued an international arrest warrant for her through Interpol, but who cares when she's this cool? Don't you wish you had politicians who dressed like that? Strike that. Don't you wish you had politicians who could dress like that?
posted by Kattullus (89 comments total)

I believe I shall take it upon myself to be the first to mention that she is like hot and stuff.
posted by aburd at 9:15 PM on February 5, 2005

It's begun.

The hipster world conquest.
posted by delmoi at 9:16 PM on February 5, 2005

I like her hair.
posted by delmoi at 9:17 PM on February 5, 2005

i don't love the Heidi do (or the nosejob), but the clothes are cool.

hopefully, she's smart too?
posted by amberglow at 9:17 PM on February 5, 2005

In the old days, Joschka Fischer was considered pretty hip.
posted by muckster at 9:18 PM on February 5, 2005

amberglow: she's got a ph.d. in economics.

delmoi: Apparently her hairdo is known as a Ukrainian braid and is the traditional 'do of Ukrainian women. That she pulls that off is really impressive.

muckster: Well, he's a green, in some quarters greens are automatically considered hip. I know too many greens to really subscribe to that worldview. That's a hilarious picture by the way. Fischer looks like a kid whose mother bought him a suit he'd "grow into".
posted by Kattullus at 9:25 PM on February 5, 2005

born in 1960. that makes her 44 years old, and she looks like she's 20...
posted by delmoi at 9:29 PM on February 5, 2005

I'm rather jealous of Ukraine now. Our second-in-command is independently wealthy, remarkably intelligent, and is not only a snarly old man, but radiates pure evil. Their second-in-command is independently wealthy, remarkably intelligent, very stylish, and Cheney's polar opposite on the attractiveness scale.

I am so voting Yushchenko in '08.
posted by Saydur at 9:35 PM on February 5, 2005

saydur: a friend of mine said that the Democrats needed someone like her for '08
posted by Kattullus at 9:39 PM on February 5, 2005

Tips for who can and cannot be so fashionable as the Braided Lady. I love how its the top story on her personal website's sidebar.
posted by somethingotherthan at 9:40 PM on February 5, 2005

Amberglow, how do you know she has had a nose job? I can see the excellent makeup, but nosejob?
posted by kuatto at 10:13 PM on February 5, 2005

Kattullus: she's got a ph.d. in economics.

Condoleeza Rice has a ph.d in poli sci. Don't mean she's "smart."

Anyway, Yushchenko is the hottest prime minister EVER!
posted by papakwanz at 10:15 PM on February 5, 2005

I can't believe this talk from you people. How in the fuck can a politician be "hip"? The definition of that word must have changed a lot in the many moons since I started using it: "hip" carried heavy overtones of being non-establishment (if not totally anti-). E.g., even Bobby Kennedy and MLK Jr. by definition could not possibly be "hip", and the German Greens lost their last shreds of hipness when they ran for election to the Bundestag -- long before they voted there to support bombing Yugoslavia.

I think what you mean is "trendy", "stylish", "sexy", or "as seen on MTV"; translated, you want to fuck her, or be her, or both. Sheesh. It reminds me of the days when Andropov was said to be "liberal" and "pro-Western" because he listened to Trane and his wife shopped at some ritzy Manhattan department store. "OOH, Timoshenko has her very own Web site!"
posted by davy at 10:22 PM on February 5, 2005

Amberglow, how do you know she has had a nose job? I can see the excellent makeup, but nosejob?
She has that cookie-cutter nose (which we called a Dr. Diamond nose growing up (friends of mine went to him, and all got the same exact nose as her): The leading practitioner back then was Dr. Howard Diamond of Manhattan, renowned for standardizing what had been a hit-or-miss operation. "Every girl on Long Island had a Diamond nose," said Dr. George J. Beraka, who said he can still pick them out on women now deep into middle age. )
posted by amberglow at 10:28 PM on February 5, 2005

(The photo shows Fischer being sworn in as environmental secretary of Hessen in 1985.)
posted by muckster at 10:39 PM on February 5, 2005

Yulia Timoshenko naked on a cold day! Yulia Timoshenko naked on a cold day!

Wait, that only made things worse...

I kinda wish I could read the "direct questions" section on her site. My cyrillic's a little rusty. But if she's good enough for Yuschenko, she's good enough for me.

Damn! These guys need to form some kind of neo-socialist superfriends team with Hugo Chavez.
posted by hifiparasol at 11:06 PM on February 5, 2005

even Bobby Kennedy and MLK Jr. by definition could not possibly be "hip"

The world is not black and white. Bobby and Jack Kennedy were far, far more hip than Nixon (which is a major reason he appeared on Laugh In), as was MLK Jr. No, they were not on the same level as, say, the Weather Underground, but they had something that others simply did not. Cache, je ne sais quois, a way about them. Groucho Marx was hip until the day he died, as was Miles Davis. Jay Leno desperately wants to be hip.

I understand this all seems so shallow on some level, if this is what "hip" is. Hey, didn't Tower of Power ask that question? Anyway, I don't think the OP was referring to the level of grassroots hipness Timoshenko has, but rather the fact that she doesn't have a tin ear. She relates to the world because she is in it, or at least she gives that impression. As shallow as that might sound, most politicians suffer from the distance of privilege. People who shrink that distance are often refreshing. Take that for what you will. But I also don't think it's important to first consider someone's anti-establishment credentials to determine their worth. MLK Jr. may not have been "hip" in some people's eyes, but he did a hell of a lot more than a lot of people who were too "hip" to put compassion and heart before ideology.

Oh, and, wow, Timoshenko really is hot. Not that it really matters, but, wow ... I wouldn't mind seeing her on tv all the time rather than Bush, all things being equal. I imagine such an attribute is a devastating political weapon.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:21 PM on February 5, 2005

? ?????? ?? ???!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:31 PM on February 5, 2005

Oh dang. That was supposed to be in cyrillic.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:32 PM on February 5, 2005

Я ударил бы его
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:21 AM on February 6, 2005

Back before she started coloring her hair, Timoshenko bore a striking resemblance to yet another feisty female rebel leader...
posted by Asparagirl at 12:26 AM on February 6, 2005

Condoleeza Rice has a ph.d in poli sci. Don't mean she's "smart."

That ain't no ordinary economics degree Ms. Timoshenko's got. From the bio:

She received university education as an economist-cyberneticist and earned a candidate of economic science degree. She authored more than 50 research works.

You see that? An economist-cyberneticist?

SHE'S NOT HUMAN!

(But then again, neither is Cheney.)

And I just realized that my Russian probably translates closer to "I would punch it!" which isn't at all what I intended. Unless she's into that sort of thing.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:35 AM on February 6, 2005

Condoleeza Rice has a ph.d in poli sci. Don't mean she's "smart."

Yes it does, even if she doesn't share your politics. Where's yours, if these things are so easy to come by?

There's something extremely distasteful about the attempts to denigrate her intelligence in a way that is never done with other Bush officials like Wolfowitz or Cheney - could that have something to do with a certain personal characteristic of hers, the same one that's led people to call Colin Powell a "house negro?"
posted by Goedel at 1:28 AM on February 6, 2005

When the revolution of antistyle comes - Night of the Long Nosehairs -- you people are all going to be first up against the wall.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 2:33 AM on February 6, 2005

I want her.

Yes.

It is fair to say that I would sell my gramma to Turkish slavers for 5 minutes with Yulia.
posted by RavinDave at 2:44 AM on February 6, 2005

Here's a picture of her ride.

Any comments on the charges against her?
posted by jsares at 4:24 AM on February 6, 2005

gee, a rich revolutionary in politics.
how oxymoronically novel.
posted by emdog at 4:31 AM on February 6, 2005

Just wait until they poison her with dioxin, then we'll see just how hot she is.
posted by briank at 4:45 AM on February 6, 2005

Didn't she play a schoolmarm on "Little House on the Prarie"?
posted by acetonic at 4:57 AM on February 6, 2005

>Condoleeza Rice has a ph.d in poli sci. Don't mean she's "smart."

>Yes it does, even if she doesn't share your politics. Where's yours, if these things are so easy to come by?

I work with PhDs every day, in fact, a University saw fit to give me a PhD -- we are not that smart, and some of us are well trained seals who clap with approval.

Plus, and it's a big plus, I've seenmetwitnessed several asswipes, with questionable intelligence, obtain a PhD from some "top rated" institutions. I've also seenmetwitnessed smart, sharp people graduate as a Philosopher of the Highest Degree from the same places. Honestly, a PhD is no indicator of anything unless the person in question has produced some unique (publishable, well cited, peer-reviewed) results or theories of some kind. And even then, it pays to be a cynic.
posted by gsb at 5:35 AM on February 6, 2005

What davy said. I could understand it if, as an annex to a post on Timoshenko as a politician, there were a parenthetical "(oh, and she's hip too!)" -- but this is pathetic. The one thing that struck me most from all these links is this:

Deputies in the 450-seat chamber endorsed her by 379 votes to zero.

That's not a good sign.
posted by languagehat at 6:30 AM on February 6, 2005

i don't love the Heidi do (or the nosejob), but the clothes are cool.

hopefully, she's smart too?
posted by amberglow at 9:17 PM PST on February 5

Why are you insulting a pretty woman in power. Jealous?
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:20 AM on February 6, 2005

She's nicknamed princess Leia, the hip outfits, the hair and the constant fight against the empire. Darth might be her father, who knows.
posted by dabitch at 7:20 AM on February 6, 2005

suddenly, international politics just got a WHOLE LOT SEXIER...
posted by cusack at 7:42 AM on February 6, 2005

i should marry her and make her a US citizen, then we will see what Russia does with that.
posted by j-urb at 8:03 AM on February 6, 2005

languagehat: well, I was originally just reading about the situation in Ukraine, but then I was struck by the fact that she doesn't look like a politician, which I find fascinating. The way people dress themselves is very fundamental to how they present themselves to the world, what message they are sending. I'm not entirely sure what message Timoshenko is going for but what I get is "I'm not your normal politician. I'm exciting. I'm new". I'll admit to falling for it, but hell, one can't be a cynic all the time. I didn't entirely leave my worries at the doorstep though, posting a link to the fact that Russia has issued an international arrest warrant through Interpol, which is a very serious deal, but it could be explained by the fact that it was issued in september of last year, a month before the Ukraine elections. I also titled this post "Don't Vote Your Conscience, Vote HIP!" which I thought would telegraph that I'm not entirely sure she's necessarily the most moral politician out there, but since I don't know one way or the other, I'm reserving judgement.

But my main point is that she's a strange politician, I don't think a post simply about the fact that she's now the premier of Ukraine would be very interesting. What differentiates her from any other politician is the way she presents herself. Now think about American or European politicians, would any of them dress this way?

Oh, and as to the 379 votes thing, well, they were endorsing a presidential decree. I don't see why that's such a bad sign. I mean, the country's just been through a tremendous upheaval, and I'm sure that they don't want to make this into a huge fight. The country's been in turmoil, and when that happens, politicians try to support the status quo. Think of what happened in 2000 after the election brouhaha then. Remember the scene from Fahrenheit 9/11 when none of the senators is willing to add his name to a petition? I think it's a similar situation. Also, 71 politicians abstained from voting, which is the same as protesting. So I don't think it's necessarily such a bad sign at all.

(Oh, and I was going to tell you about an interesting blog entry discussing whether Ukraine should take a definite article or not, but then I found you had already commented on it :) )
posted by Kattullus at 8:13 AM on February 6, 2005

You know, back in the 196t0s and 1970s they thought Margaret Thatcher was sexy...


posted by meehawl at 8:19 AM on February 6, 2005

i wonder if dying for the ideals of a hot-looking piece feels better than dying for saaay, a golda maier or maggie's thatch?

she'd look good as a reclining, scantily-clad, nose-art beauty on the front of a warbird and would give new meaning to a good mortar pounding in the trenches.
posted by emdog at 8:28 AM on February 6, 2005

"I also don't think it's important to first consider someone's anti-establishment credentials to determine their worth. MLK Jr. may not have been "hip" in some people's eyes, but he did a hell of a lot more than a lot of people who were too "hip" to put compassion and heart before ideology."

This is the kind of that gets me growling and snapping "Dipshit!" Where did I say those things you impute to me? Show me where I even mentioned Timoshenko's "worth", let alone Martin Luther King's. Go on, can you? No? Well then, kindly acknowledge that I agree with you that one may be "worthy" without being hip. (Or having perky nipples.)

Now somebody tell me why anyone, let alone some politician in a country you've never been to, is so "worthy" just because she happens to be a) female and b) prettier than Richard Nixon. What an incredibly SHALLOW "value judgment", especially of someone who might well have the power of life and death over millions of one's fellow human beings. A cute face and succulent breasts won't make Ashlee Simpson a rock star, so how do they put Timoshenko up there with Martin Luther King?

Thanks to this thread I can now imagine some dipshit seriously chirping "So what if she's starving thousands of babies? What matters is she's got GREAT tits!"
posted by davy at 8:56 AM on February 6, 2005

davy: Are you saying image is not important to a politician? I'm not assuming anything, just wondering.

I'm not putting Timoshenko up there with MLK, however she was one of the prime movers and shakers in the Ukrainian Orange Revolution, which gives her hip credentials right there. Oh, and if you're looking for a politician that was possibly hipper than anyone in the 20th century, look no further than Che Guevara. I personally am not a big fan of Che, but I recognize the fact that he oozed cool like a snail oozes mucus. Hip is not synonymous with good, great or being moral, it's a matter of presentation.
posted by Kattullus at 9:05 AM on February 6, 2005

oops, due to sloppy editing on preview I excised a rather significant part of my last comment. Are you saying image is not important to a politician? should have been: Are you saying image is not important to a politician, or rather, that image is not the primary attribute voters use to judge a politician?
posted by Kattullus at 9:12 AM on February 6, 2005

Once again, a female politician described and evaluated primarily on her appearance. Way to be, guys.
posted by heatherann at 9:18 AM on February 6, 2005

heatherann beats me to it. Just sorry it took so long
posted by IndigoJones at 9:22 AM on February 6, 2005

Why are you insulting a pretty woman in power. Jealous?
Just pointing out that this very shallow (but fun) thread is all about HER LOOKS AND STYLE, and not her brains or intelligence or understanding of her job--something way too common when we discuss female politicians, and not at all what counts-- especially for the people of her country. Sorry if i was too subtle with my question for you.

on preview: see heatherann.
posted by amberglow at 9:25 AM on February 6, 2005

Civil_Disobedient: You said you would punch *him*.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:26 AM on February 6, 2005

No Kattullus, I'm saying that being pretty does not determine "worth", especially not for a politician as a politician. As for revolution giving "hip" credentials, shall we all drool for Lenin and Mao?

But yes, I will agree that at least in America (the only country I know first-hand) "image" is indeed "the primary attribute voters use to judge a politician". That's one major factor in my country going down the toilet -- and dragging other countries down with it. Imagine: hundreds of thousands of Iraqis maimed or killed because a demented chimp looks "hawt" in a uniform.

So, naturally, yes to what heatherann said too.
posted by davy at 9:36 AM on February 6, 2005

Civil Disobedient: actualy, while Russian and Ukranian both use cyrillc letters, they words are spelled, and said, diffrently. If she's so hip, she's probably going to speek more Ukranian so people know what's up.
posted by delmoi at 10:00 AM on February 6, 2005

Just pointing out that this very shallow (but fun) thread is all about HER LOOKS AND STYLE. . .
Sorry if i was too subtle with my question for you.
posted by amberglow at 9:25 AM PST on February 6

You questioned her intelligence, and said she had a nose job!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 10:05 AM on February 6, 2005

i did not question her intelligence--i questioned why no mention at all of her intelligence--and having a nose job is no sin at all, by any means.
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on February 6, 2005

My mistake!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 10:17 AM on February 6, 2005

You said you would punch *him*

You think this is going to negatively affect my chances with her? [hangs head in shame]

Once again, a female politician described and evaluated primarily on her appearance. Way to be, guys.

Yeah, 'cause that never happens with the male politicians. Never. They never talk about how tall they are, ever. Like that Edwards guy. I never, ever, not once heard any commentators, male or female, comment on how attractive he was.

Once again, a MeFi member with a stick up their butt and a pet cause tries to derail a thread with BoyZone callouts.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:58 AM on February 6, 2005

Oh, and as to the 379 votes thing, well, they were endorsing a presidential decree. I don't see why that's such a bad sign... Also, 71 politicians abstained from voting, which is the same as protesting.

No it's not. It's the coward's way out. There was zero true opposition (the kind that can get you in trouble), and I repeat, that's always a bad sign. Hell, there was one vote against the US declaration of war in World War Two, and if there was ever a cause that might have seemed open-and-shut, it was that.

Jeez, "they were endorsing a presidential decree. I don't see why that's such a bad sign" -- is that the attitude you'd take if it was Bush's presidential decree?

And what heatherann said.
posted by languagehat at 11:06 AM on February 6, 2005

"In place of a dark lord you would have a queen. Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair."
posted by anthill at 11:21 AM on February 6, 2005

languagehat: Jeez, "they were endorsing a presidential decree. I don't see why that's such a bad sign" -- is that the attitude you'd take if it was Bush's presidential decree?

I just did. To quote myself:

The country's been in turmoil, and when that happens, politicians try to support the status quo. Think of what happened in 2000 after the election brouhaha then. Remember the scene from Fahrenheit 9/11 when none of the senators is willing to add his name to a petition? I think it's a similar situation.

Now, I don't want to derail this into a Bushfest, but I'd like to say that I'm Icelandic (married to an American, though) and while I'm not exactly what you call a Bush fan, I don't think he's destroying the republic as we know it.

heatherann: I personally think that it shows a great deal of intelligence and character to dress that well... there's a reason it's called being smartly dressed.
posted by Kattullus at 11:36 AM on February 6, 2005

Another very nice looking Prime Minister in her day; Benizer Bhutto.
posted by X4ster at 11:46 AM on February 6, 2005

i'd like to know how it's been determined that she's intelligent.
education=intelligence ?
posted by emdog at 11:46 AM on February 6, 2005

It's not very funny, really, but briank made me laugh anyway.
posted by obloquy at 11:50 AM on February 6, 2005

Goedel

There's something extremely distasteful about the attempts to denigrate her intelligence in a way that is never done with other Bush officials like Wolfowitz or Cheney - could that have something to do with a certain personal characteristic of hers, the same one that's led people to call Colin Powell a "house negro?"

<troll>
It's not the melanin in her skin that makes her unintelligent, it's the lack of a Y chromosome
</troll>

There's something extremely distasteful about the attempt to link a comment about someone's intelligence to racism on the part of the commentator, and as you'll see, I brought sexism into it just to spare you the trouble.

So, what - a politician has to be white (and male) before I can think they're not all they're cracked up to be?

Perhaps no-one ever questions Cheney and Wolfowitz's intelligence because they are demonstrably intelligent. They are the ones pulling Bush's strings.

Bush (her "husband"), on the other hand, seems to pull Rice's strings.

She has just never impressed me in any regard, never seems to have uttered an original thought, never seems to have said or done anything that would lead me to conclude she's a leader, a thinker or even a doer, that would lead me to think, in fact, that she's anything other than a marginally competent, intellectually docile puppet who happens to be a black female, and thus a useful foil against those who would level a criticism of white male exclusiveness against the Bush cabinet.

But you will doubtless find a way to dismiss my observations because I'm white (and therefore racist), or because I'm black (and therefore consumed with self-hatred) or because I'm male (and therefore racist) or because I'm female (and therefore jealous). Whatever.
posted by kcds at 12:01 PM on February 6, 2005

Please excuse the lack of a closing </i> tag.
posted by kcds at 12:03 PM on February 6, 2005

Don't you wish you had politicians who dressed like that?


No.


When it comes to public servants, aspirations to 'hipness' are cause for suspicion. It suggests vanity & insecurity--not a wonderful quality for a leader.

On the flipside, people say a bad personal style hurt Wes Clark's (my personal choice for Democratic contender) chances.


/in any case, Timoshenko is still gorgeous...
posted by dhoyt at 12:17 PM on February 6, 2005

Once again, a female politician described and evaluated primarily on her appearance. Way to be, guys.

This may happen a lot, but Timoshenko wears some incredibly stylish and outre clothes that at least no politician in America would touch - female politicians and political wives here seem to feel compelled to stick to boxy first-lady suits. I think that's worth a mention.
posted by transona5 at 12:29 PM on February 6, 2005

Once again, a female politician described and evaluated primarily on her appearance.

You called it, at least as far as my comment goes. Consider me abashed.

could that have something to do with a certain personal characteristic of hers, the same one that's led people to call Colin Powell a "house negro?"

I'm new here, and I really don't want to be accusatory, but this kind of sounds like trolling to me. I think we've already seen enough of this neocon wannabe victimization in response to very legitimate criticism of the crappy, sycophantic job Condi Rice has done. To paraphrase the esteemed Mr. John Stewart: This deck doesn't even have a race card.

If there's any one thing I can stomach about Ms. Rice, it's that she's been too classy to use this tactic.
posted by hifiparasol at 1:01 PM on February 6, 2005

I don't think Condi is stupid. But she's done a shitty job.
posted by grouse at 1:52 PM on February 6, 2005

Yes it does, even if she doesn't share your politics. Where's yours, if these things are so easy to come by?

No, it simply means she is capable of following through on requirements to earn a degree. I sometimes find myself having more interesting philosophical discussions with artists and musicians than with fellow grad students, partly because grad students sometimes get so caught "inside the box" that it just becomes about who can reference which semi-obscure term or text, and less about honestly interested and creative thinking.

Memorizing stuff is not equivalent to intelligence or leadership. Rice does not come across as someone who really has her own visions or ideas. She is capable of fulfilling a function, but I also have never got a sense from her that there's anything special going on inside.
posted by mdn at 1:58 PM on February 6, 2005

amen mdn!
posted by emdog at 2:12 PM on February 6, 2005

Any comments on the charges against her?

I don't trust anything coming out of Putin's judiciary. The background of the charges comes from when she had a falling out with Leonid Kuchma, the outgoing President and a sometime ally of Putin. The Ukrainian government seemed to be trying to demonize the oligarchs as robber-barons, but that's too uncomfortably close to the bashing -- and purging -- of the kulaks under Stalin to be taken at face value. It seems to be a common tactic, and the end result of Putin's campaign has been to bring the resources of the gas industry under the direct control of his cronies. I think that alone speaks volumes about the legitimacy of the charges.

One thing's for sure, people who are claiming Yushchenko and Timoshenko (in this thread!) as some sort of quasi-socialist bleeding edge for Europe are off base. If anything, they're more in tune with the capitalist model. They're exemplars of liberal democracy, which is not the same as liberalism or leftism.
posted by dhartung at 2:52 PM on February 6, 2005

she's considered to be one of the richest people in the ukraine; with capitalism, the rich rule.
and there will never ever be a 'common man' in the white house again.
posted by emdog at 3:26 PM on February 6, 2005

dhartung: Well, it's hard to figure out exactly what plans Yuschenko and Timoshenko have. They're both liberals in the eastern European sense, i.e. for privatization of state-run enterprise and "modernization" of markets. They also seem to support more social liberalism, but then in many ways Ukraine is more socially liberal than Russia, for instance HIV/AIDS is more acknowledged as a problem there, while in Russia it's mostly ignored.

emdog: well... she made her fortune herself, some say by corrupt means, but nothing has been proven against her, so I'd like to assume she's innocent, though corruption has been the norm in these parts for a looooong time.
posted by Kattullus at 4:12 PM on February 6, 2005

she's rich and in the former soviet union. that means she's a fucking crook that's screwed a shitload of people. she's rolling in the tax money you paid to bail out their economy. try thinking with your brains rather than your pricks and read this book or just using friggin' google.
posted by andrew cooke at 4:14 PM on February 6, 2005

Well, at least she bought some nice clothes with my money.
posted by exlotuseater at 5:10 PM on February 6, 2005

"I also don't think it's important to first consider someone's anti-establishment credentials to determine their worth. MLK Jr. may not have been "hip" in some people's eyes, but he did a hell of a lot more than a lot of people who were too "hip" to put compassion and heart before ideology."

This is the kind of that gets me growling and snapping "Dipshit!" Where did I say those things you impute to me? Show me where I even mentioned Timoshenko's "worth", let alone Martin Luther King's. Go on, can you? No? Well then, kindly acknowledge that I agree with you that one may be "worthy" without being hip. (Or having perky nipples.)

Put the bees on the what, now?

Now somebody tell me why anyone, let alone some politician in a country you've never been to, is so "worthy" just because she happens to be a) female and b) prettier than Richard Nixon. What an incredibly SHALLOW "value judgment", especially of someone who might well have the power of life and death over millions of one's fellow human beings. A cute face and succulent breasts won't make Ashlee Simpson a rock star, so how do they put Timoshenko up there with Martin Luther King?

You were the one who said that not even MLK was "hip." I wasn't comparing Timoshenko to MLK. I was explaining that "hipness" isn't always matter of ideological purity: to wit, Timoshenko. I think you're confused and angry about shadows on the wall.

Thanks to this thread I can now imagine some dipshit seriously chirping "So what if she's starving thousands of babies? What matters is she's got GREAT tits!"

Yes, because people say a particular politician is hot, it will lead to genocide. It's so logical.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:24 PM on February 6, 2005

kat; i doubt that any wrongdoing can be proven and because it's so muddy, the participants stay clean.
it's a perfect system if one can be in the right place at the right time to end up on the inside track.
from an editorial about stiglitz's book;
""Those who vilify globalization too often overlook its benefits," Stiglitz writes, explaining how globalization, along with foreign aid, has improved the living standards of millions around the world."
"Particularly concerned with the plight of the developing nations, he became increasingly disillusioned as he saw the International Monetary Fund and other major institutions put the interests of Wall Street and the financial community ahead of the poorer nations."

put those two statements together an i hear that there's big money to be skimmed from helping the poorer nations.
legal/illegal seems to become a matter of conscience vs law.
posted by emdog at 5:25 PM on February 6, 2005

Damn distracting Superbowl halftime making me forget to attribute quotes. They had to trot out McCartney to sing some great Beatles songs. That was supposed to be:

Thanks to this thread I can now imagine some dipshit seriously chirping "So what if she's starving thousands of babies? What matters is she's got GREAT tits!"

Yes, because people say a particular politician is hot, it will lead to genocide. It's so logical.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:26 PM on February 6, 2005

One thing's for sure, people who are claiming Yushchenko and Timoshenko (in this thread!) as some sort of quasi-socialist bleeding edge for Europe are off base.

I never said any of that. The only thing I said - and I stand by this - is that Timoshenko is hot. FTR, Yushchenko most definitely is not, but that's just me. Or maybe it's the poison ...

Anyway, I was never very taken with Yushchenko. From what I gather the whole "revolt" following the first election was contrived and financed by the US and other NATO nations, as Yushchenko is pro-NATO. It looked about as "grassroots" as the so-called populist movement against Chavez in Venezuela.

Still, Timoshenko is hot, but I probably wouldn't vote for her.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:38 PM on February 6, 2005

andrew cooke: Look, not every single person who's made money in the former Soviet Union is a crook. Everyone who does is accused of being a crook, to which there is a big difference. A few, some, most or even all might be corrupt. I don't know and you don't know because no one really knows. It's one of those instances which Rumsfeld would call a known unknown. However, we do know that a substantial number of people in the former Soviet Union made money in illegal and immoral ways. As I mentioned in the fpp she has an international arrest warrant out on her. However, she has been under arrest before and cleared. All these things may mean nothing at all, or something, again, I don't know. Now, if we look at how she made her money, you'll see that she made it in the energy sector. Now, there's a lot of corruption in the energy sector, but there's also a lot of money. (Oh, by the way, what she's mostly accused of, at least according to her wikipedia bio which I linked to in the post, is money laundering). She could have potentially made it legally, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that she'd taken part in some shenanigans that couldn't stand the light of day. But I'm not a betting man, so I decide to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Now, I recognize that this is naïve. However, in this case I'll go with being naïve because the alternative is being cynical. As a good student of Aristotle I try to find the golden mean in this but since I know so little, and so little good information is available I choose to err on the side of caution/naïvité. I don't know one way or the other how corrupt Yulia Timoshenko or Viktor Yuschenko are, so I won't try to "call it" one way or the other.
posted by Kattullus at 5:57 PM on February 6, 2005

Yeah, well, no one is as hot as my governor.

*swoons*

On Preview: God she's hot. So hot. Must change law banning foreigners from presidency.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 6:09 PM on February 6, 2005

There's something extremely distasteful about the attempts to denigrate her intelligence in a way that is never done with other Bush officials like Wolfowitz or Cheney

Wolfowitz is a fucking moron.

Happy now?
posted by chundo at 6:49 PM on February 6, 2005

aw kat, the alternative to naive is cynical?
how about realistic?

mother theresa was in it for one variety of personal gain/reward so why wouldn't people that think they know what's right for the world be any different when it comes to personal reward?
that's a lot of knowledge they're selling and they're charging big-time for it.
posted by emdog at 6:59 PM on February 6, 2005

emdog: I'd say realistic is the golden mean between naïve and cynical, however, it's one of the harder ones to attain.

I do think that ultimately, to the level of brain chemistry, everyone's in it for personal reward, but that doesn't denigrate anyone's contributions to society. To quote Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest"
posted by Kattullus at 7:35 PM on February 6, 2005

great post, just because someone is a woman doesn't mean you shouldn't point out that they're a great dresser. That is sexist.
posted by cell divide at 7:49 PM on February 6, 2005

doesn't denigrate anyone's contributions to society
correct, but i'd say to adam that it depends on how much one makes in relation to how much/what they do.

in smith's times, two of the three Bs provided a service that's necessary for life and relationally we still do that, but unlike smith's times we pay absurdly disproportionate amounts for the services of government, entertainment(hard to tell the diff sometimes) that he could never have imagined.
don't hold me to my accuracy but there's a figure out there that within the last 40yrs, the disparity between management's and labor's wages is 600%. has the standard of living for the majority benefited by the same degree? and with the current US deficit, every one of us and all our newborns are currently in the hole by 25k.
sounds like a whole hell of a lot of us are in it for the money.
posted by emdog at 8:42 PM on February 6, 2005

Bleh, the fact that she probably stole tones of money along with everyone else has no real baring on her intentions twoards the people of her country.
posted by delmoi at 11:54 PM on February 6, 2005

bleh?!
'ohhhh, don't worry about that stain on your dress monica, it'll come out with a little club soda'

oh shit, they killed vince. you bastards!

ethics is ethics and morals is morals; all pirates are waiting for the other to fall asleep so that they can slit their throat and steal their booty.
but it's ok because 'the people' get the crumbs that fall through the cracks.
posted by emdog at 2:37 AM on February 7, 2005

Once again, a female politician described and evaluated primarily on her appearance. Way to be, guys.

I don't like her because of her looks. I like her because she is talented. There are plenty of good looking girls around. If what I was looking for was based on looks, I would already be set.
posted by j-urb at 8:14 AM on February 7, 2005

Let's not forget about everyone's favourite hip politics diva, Cicciolina.
posted by analogue at 8:31 AM on February 7, 2005

analogue: I don't know, she still dressed like Laura Bush. Compare this photo of Laura Bush to the politician-photo of Cicciolina (hint: it's the one where's she isn't displaying her organs of lactation ;) )
posted by Kattullus at 1:04 PM on February 7, 2005

This thread makes my head hurt.

Fig, d'you have any proof that the Ukrainian public response to the Yuschenko-Yanukovych controversy was all orchestrated by the capitalist demons? I was under the impression that people actually were pissed off because of whole, y'know, election fraud and corruption and desire to move past the brutal regime that they used to live under, rather than it all being smoke and mirrors to subvert those noble heroes of the common man that controlled the country during the time of the Soviet Union.

Russia's arrest warrant on her probably has more to do with Putin hating Yuschenko's guts rather than any actual wrongdoing. I mean, even if she did get all her wealth from naughty business methods, that's how nearly all of Russia's politicans and rich people have gotten their wealth, too. They don't give a crap about that.
posted by schroedinger at 3:18 PM on February 7, 2005

Indeed, Kattullus, Laura is truly out of this world.
posted by analogue at 9:22 AM on February 8, 2005

analogue: that picture made my head hurt
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on February 8, 2005