[this is painful]
February 20, 2005 4:47 PM   Subscribe

"One thing that I was sad about the first time is that my tongue web was thrown in the trash can. This time, I was sure to get it back, so I could eat it." Okay, maybe the tongue obsession is over the top, but multiple body piercings are not that unusual these... OH MY GOD... branding and implants and Danny Dulai!
posted by naomi (75 comments total)
 
Really interesting stuff... though I think it will take me a few hours to go through all the links as the pictures are a bit much for me. I'm not terribly squeamish (I've had three facial piercings and a tattoo), the sutures are a bit much for me.

I still think body mods are fascinating, even if I can't bring myself to look at all of them.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:58 PM on February 20, 2005


Body mods are boring and cliched. So are tattoos, makeup, hair dye, nail polish, tooth caps, breast implants, bodybuilding and all the rest of it.

You want to look really outlaw? Cease all grooming and hygeine for the duration.

Resist the vanity industry, kids.
posted by jonmc at 5:05 PM on February 20, 2005


Loads more at Body Modification E-zine. You'd have to pay to see the really extreme stuff (I never have). Probably NSFW, or for the squeamish.
posted by dilettante at 5:07 PM on February 20, 2005


......
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on February 20, 2005


Stupid pet tricks for humans. A new profit margin for the fashion industry, and ... it hurts like hell!
posted by zaelic at 5:37 PM on February 20, 2005


Fortunately for the global economy, not everyone is as jaded as jonmc. As long as there's still one person who can be shocked, it's all worthwhile.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:48 PM on February 20, 2005


Some of us just think certain kinds of of body mods are pretty, and like to look pretty. That's really all there is to it.
posted by kyrademon at 6:03 PM on February 20, 2005


The thing that is interesting about this stuff is that we are not used to it. Many societies have some form of bodily mutilation like the stuff this guy does (not all of it, and not all together, but something). I have watched a video of some Africans (I no longer remember who, sadly), that when a boy is to become a man, they shave his head, get a razor blade, and carve deep cuts along his head, from front to back, parallel. They then stuff the cuts with dirt, so that they scar up nice.

Shocking! Or normal, if that's your tribe. It seems like most societies have some form of body modification. I guess it is somewhat unique that now, westerners pick the kind, but ultimately this stuff is 10s of thousands of years old.

But it sure does freak grandma out. I'm glad I don't have to do it -- but I don't hold it against anyone that does.
posted by teece at 6:05 PM on February 20, 2005


Hmm. I'm now imagining the following conversation:

KYRADEMON'S ASTONISHINGLY HOT GIRLFRIEND: Oh . . . Oh, yes . . . huh?
KYRADEMON: Sweetie, I'm concerned.
KAHG: What are you doing? Put your mouth back where it goes!
K: No, seriously. There's some guy on the internet who says I should find your piercings as a cliched attempt to shock rather than a sexily alluring body decoration, and for reasons I cannot explain I've decided to hold his opinion in higher regard than yours or my own.
KAHG: What?
K: I don't want to, but what can I do? It's some guy on the internet! As arousing as I find your body mods, I think I'm going to have to force myself to dislike them. Maybe I can try behavioral therapy. Like electric shocks.
KAHG: Have you gone insane?
K: Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put on a petticoat, and get my tattoos flensed off. Bye!

. . . nah, think I'll pass on that one.
posted by kyrademon at 6:30 PM on February 20, 2005


Yeah, jonmc! What gives you the right not to personally like body modifications? What gives you the nerve?
posted by Simon! at 6:47 PM on February 20, 2005


Shocking! Or normal, if that's your tribe. It seems like most societies have some form of body modification. I guess it is somewhat unique that now, westerners pick the kind, but ultimately this stuff is 10s of thousands of years old.

I'm not sure I'd equate ancient tribal initiation with kids trying hard to look cool and different.
posted by jikel_morten at 6:57 PM on February 20, 2005


Simon - don't care if he doesn't like them. I'm amused by his (and others') apparent assumptions as to why I'm doing it ("shock", "look different", "look outlaw", etc.) and his implication that, if I were, I don't know, properly enlightened, I would and should hold the same opinion as he does/they do ("resist the vanity industry", etc.)

So, yeah, they're free to dislike body mods, and rant as much as they want about how they wouldn't want to screw me. Bully for them (although I suppose this means I'll somehow have to find access to orgasms without their help, which for some reason doesn't bother me.) But I think it's kind of hilarious that they seem to think their opinion is the only *right* opinion, and if *they* don't find such things attractive, then other people cannot possibly be doing it because they do.
posted by kyrademon at 7:09 PM on February 20, 2005


Yeah, jonmc! What gives you the right not to personally like body modifications? What gives you the nerve?

Alcohol.

I dunno. I can appreciate the aesthetics of some body mods, especially tattoos, but back when I was a kid, y'know who had tattoos and peircings? Bikers, sailors, ex-cons, people truly on the margins of society. These days people get tats so they can be unique, just like everybody else.
posted by jonmc at 7:11 PM on February 20, 2005


Jon, perhaps the bikers, sailors and ex-cons were getting tattoos in order to look like all the other bikers, sailors and ex-cons. Normal, if that's your tribe.

Why do people who dislike tattoos feel so confident in assuming they understand tattooed people's motivations? I mean, I don't like iPods, but it seems unreasonable to think that everyone who has one is an emo lemming who likes those silhouette ads.
posted by box at 7:17 PM on February 20, 2005


my roommate is fascinated (FASCINATED) by body mod people, like some people are fascinated with birds or worldclass cyclists or photography...

his computer screen is normal smirched with mildly to extremely horrific genital piercings. it's quite interesting tho, and it seems to have a lot more to do with sex and beauty than with freaking other people out (as proponents on this thread have indicated)
posted by es_de_bah at 7:24 PM on February 20, 2005


I actually met Nirva at a convention a couple years ago, he was showing off the piercings between his knuckles to a group of us. Seems like a fairly cool guy.
posted by Josh Zhixel at 7:26 PM on February 20, 2005


MetaFilter: Stupid pet tricks for humans.
posted by S.C. at 7:35 PM on February 20, 2005


Tongue-splitting? Ick. Not quite as bad as subincision. (NSFW!) Then there's tight-lacing. Makes the rubbing dirt in cuts ritual look almost appealing.
posted by Oriole Adams at 7:42 PM on February 20, 2005


Just personal experience, but the strangest people I know, strange internally that is, are also the plainest on the outside.
posted by HTuttle at 7:44 PM on February 20, 2005


This stuff may have been "adventurous" about twenty years ago, but it's fairly white-trashy now, isn't it? I see kids getting lip piercings because they saw them on some MTV show, and then they go to a corporate-sponsored music festival and EVERY KID WITHIN 20 MILES has the same exact lip piercing.

I think jonmc is right on this one. A visible tattoo or piercing most likely means you come from a rural, somewhat impoverished town and that you watch a lot of TV.

Rebellion isn't what it used to be.
posted by BoringPostcards at 7:48 PM on February 20, 2005


These days people get tats so they can be unique, just like everybody else.

Yeah, because the image I selected and the form of adorning myself with it didn't appeal to me at all. In reality, I derrived the notion from page 125 of the "How To Be Different Handbook" I got free with my Nine Inch Nails albums.

A simple "I don't get it" would have sufficed. I do believe there's a rocking chair on your porch that misses you; and some young whippersnappers "mucking about" on your lawn who could use a good yelling at.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:49 PM on February 20, 2005


I just picked up my copy at the local club, Dark Messiah. They give them out along with the condoms. I'm particularly fond of Chapter 7, "Why Your Choice Of Eyeliner Immediately Defines Your Personal History, Politics, Habits, Weight, Hygiene, Age, Ethnicity, And Tastes In Music And Literature."

Really, I'm learning *so* *much* about myself from this thread! I had no idea that I'm white-trash, watch MTV (and a lot of TV in general), am a slave to the vanity industry, come from a rural impoverished area, and am trying to look unique (just like everyone else), adventurous, shocking, different, rebellious, and outlaw! Keep the insights coming, guys, seriously - this is great. Please tell me, what else do you know about me from me body mods?
posted by kyrademon at 8:12 PM on February 20, 2005


It's not that I "disapprove" of body modification. I'm a strict libertarian when it comes to how you want to look. I'm just not gonna applaud and say "ooh, you're so unique," to what's basically become a cliche.

Jon, perhaps the bikers, sailors and ex-cons were getting tattoos in order to look like all the other bikers, sailors and ex-cons.

Yes, but those groups were truly marginal people who were taking big risks by marking themselves as such. These days the prom queen probably has a tat and a barbell through her nipple. My 50+ aunt has 3 tats. It's goldfish swallowing.

Plus after all the talk about "rebellion," is said and done, ultimately, I equate it with breast implants and and teeth whiteners. That is to say, it's an indication of someone who cares too much about appearances, of vanity.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 PM on February 20, 2005


I'm just not gonna applaud and say "ooh, you're so unique," to what's basically become a cliche.

This is where I'm going to dispell what appears to be a huge myth among the non-tattoo'ed... None of us get them so folks like yourself can congratulate us.

You're (obviously) welcome to your opinion. Just don't expect anyone to care.

Anyone who modifies their body for "rebelious" purposes is a tool and, more-than likely, a figment of your imagination. Yeah, a lot of trend-seeking kids get them; the same can be said about a lot of things.

You drink and post on the Internet, that in itself could be considered an attempt to be "cool" by someone like me who thinks very lowly of it. I'm not going to haul out my soapbox and near-preach to that effect.

Because I know you don't care.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:21 PM on February 20, 2005


One of the first thing they will teach you in an anthropology class is that you have to throw your ethnocentricity out the window if you want to be any good.

It doesn't matter why YOU think someone one is getting a body mod. What matters is why THEY think they are getting it.

All the negative feelings about body mods SHOULD apply wholly to female ear piercings if one were just against the whole idea in general (the "normal" one hole per ear). It doesn't. Why? Because you've been taught to accept it by your culture.

I think it is fucking great that today, rather than blindly accepting whatever culture they are given by accident birth, people are choosing, to some degree, to create their own cultures in the west. That's an amazing and powerful thing to me.
posted by teece at 8:23 PM on February 20, 2005


Dark Messiah, I've known you (in the cyber-sense) for years and respected you, the fact that you have some ink dosen't change that. My best freind has 9 tattoos.

If you want to poke holes in yourself or put a design on your body for personal reasons, more power to you. But I'm just tired of the hype I see surrounding it.

And like I said, my main reason for my distaste is based on disdain for putting that much effort into how you look, but that's just me being a lazy, dirty, smelly fuck.

I think it is fucking great that today, rather than blindly accepting whatever culture they are given by accident birth, people are choosing, to some degree, to create their own cultures in the west. That's an amazing and powerful thing to me.

Eh. Being open to other cultures in great, but getting "tribal" tats dosen't make me a Maori warrior anymore than buying a lasso makes me a cowboy.
posted by jonmc at 8:28 PM on February 20, 2005


Jon, I'm cool with your stance. I find some of your ideas offbase, although I am sure they apply in some cases -- I see enough pre-pubescent "goths" downtown with boiler-plate ink stamped all over their bodies, comparing facial piercings.

I see it as something people CAN make unique; even if a lot of people don't.

Heh, besides, I play death metal, I need a tattoo or the other guys in the scene will call me a pussy. ;)
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:31 PM on February 20, 2005


Eh. Being open to other cultures in great, but getting "tribal" tats dosen't make me a Maori warrior anymore than buying a lasso makes me a cowboy.

I didn't say that. If you think the kind of extreme body modding that the guy in this article did doesn't have major impacts on how this culture accepts him, you're crazy.

People do it for many reasons, but it is an undeniable fact that an alternate set of cultural norms (sub-cultural, in the hierarchical sense, not lesser sense) springs up around these things. It is more than just window dressing for people that are serious about this (And hell, even for those that it is just window dressing, it is still a completely valid part of their cultural expression. Who said you had to be unique? If body mods become the norm, have they been debased? Hell no). And, no matter how imitative some of it is, it is creating its own unique culture-within-the-culture in the process.

Like I said, if you ever want to give these people a fair hearing (beyond just live-and-let-live), you have to throw your ethnocentricity away.

I don't have any body mods other than the extremely tame and safe ear piercing. The guy in this article makes me uncomfortable. I would never get anything like that. I have lots of reasons why. None of that matters one whit.
posted by teece at 8:38 PM on February 20, 2005


teece was talking about people creating new cultures for themselves, jonmc, not attempting to join extant ones. Entirely different things.

I will cop to one thing you've brought up - I do like to look nice. It makes me feel good to do so, enough that I am willing to spend a tiny amount of time each day maintaining my hygiene and a similarly small amount of my limited income on such things as body mods and pretty clothes, just for that bit of happiness I get daily when I'm able to think, "Hey, I look nice today." I'm sorry you . . . disapprove, I guess, but to be frank, it's for me, not you, so I really couldn't care less.
posted by kyrademon at 8:38 PM on February 20, 2005


I think people who modify themselves are still taking risks--among other things, they risk infection, being passed over for jobs and being prejudged as vain, stupid white-trash cliches.

And Jon, I feel like I understand your feelings about vanity. But I don't think anyone gets facial tattoos in order to be more attractive to the prom queen. And a lot of body modification serves, ah, utilitarian purposes, and is never seen by anyone but a small number of sexual partners.

Don't get me wrong--there are a lot of people getting a lot of stupid tattoos for a lot of stupid reasons. But tarring every modified person with the same brush just isn't accurate.
posted by box at 8:44 PM on February 20, 2005


I'm sorry you . . . disapprove, I guess, but to be frank, it's for me, not you, so I really couldn't care less.

It's not so much that I disapprove, I just wont pretend it's any different than some sorority girl spending $50 to get her nails done. Punk or preppie, fratboy or crusty punk, it's still just a variation on "I feel pretty," and I'd rather spend my money on beer and cheesesteaks. Neither's worse or better really.

But I don't think anyone gets facial tattoos in order to be more attractive to the prom queen

No, but they might do so to look more attractive (or "hardcore") to their peers in their punk/goth/deathmetal subgroup*. Different norm, same impulse.

*not saying this is why everyone does it, just making a point.
posted by jonmc at 8:47 PM on February 20, 2005


I'm one of the "it's not for me" crowd, but I do find the dismissive attitude toward those who do a little puzzling. The contempt for our fellow humans is not terribly amusing.

Body mods are not just for the declasse, you should know. Body sculptor Orlan has been at this awhile, too, as has Fakir Mustapha and others.

Donna Harraway (and perhaps Phillip K. Dick, but I doubt it) would see this as further evidence of the cyborgs among us.
posted by beelzbubba at 9:00 PM on February 20, 2005


A visible tattoo or piercing most likely means you come from a rural, somewhat impoverished town and that you watch a lot of TV.

You're joking, right?
posted by jesourie at 9:01 PM on February 20, 2005


The difference between a tattooed person and a non-tattoed person? The one with the tattoos doesn't care if you are tattooed or not.
posted by SuzySmith at 9:05 PM on February 20, 2005


Eh . . . I could argue that there is a qualitative difference between working with a talented local artist to create a specific piece of artwork for your body and getting your nails done, jonmc, but honestly it's an arguable point and I'm not invested enough in it to bother to pursue it. So, really, no argument on the "I feel pretty" point, such as it is, from me.
posted by kyrademon at 9:06 PM on February 20, 2005


the metal mohawk i looked for pictures but cant find em, although i know i have seen it. A lot of the piercing is crossing over into borderline medical practive, with what they call beading
posted by sophist at 10:16 PM on February 20, 2005


. . .
posted by Jim Jones at 3:37 AM on February 21, 2005


I feel like I owe you an apology, kyrademon. In my comment way back above, I didn't mean to imply that I believe that body modifications are done solely to shock others. That was simply a knee-jerk, sarcastic reply to jonmc. For what it's worth, I don't have any piercings, but I have twenty-five tattoos and am overdue for a twenty-sixth. None of them are visible if I'm wearing a T-shirt.
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:43 AM on February 21, 2005


Some people do these things for the reasons jonmc falsely ascribes to all of them, and other people do things for different reasons. Insofar as jonmc is right, I agree with him.

Otherwise, though, it's just another means of altering one's appearance to me. I don't privilege one kind over another, or even doing so as opposed to not doing so.

However, again, to the degree that some people think this is very meaningful, they have to live with the implications of that meaning, which can include that it's actually facile.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:00 AM on February 21, 2005


What sort of freak nails their balls to a bench?
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:12 AM on February 21, 2005


Hmm. Ignoring jonmc's kneejerk comments for the moment, I'm interested in what the rest of you had to say about your motivation in getting body mods.

I'm very curious about this guy's motives. Look at his matter-of-fact descriptions of these procedures, which are pretty extreme by anyone's standards. I mean, the guy got sutures in his neck because he thought they were "interesting"!

Anyone have more insight into this?
posted by naomi at 5:46 AM on February 21, 2005


(No need to apologize, Faint of Butt - I kind of figured you were jokin'.)
posted by kyrademon at 7:24 AM on February 21, 2005


Part of character creation in the Matrix Online is tattoo selection, and in World of Warcraft, piercing selection. After looking at some of the photos linked in this post, I'm certain MxO isn't nearly extreme enough, given the mood it's going for.
posted by artifarce at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2005


Maybe someone can give me a hand because what I want to know is, what are all these extremist hardcore kiddies going to do when they are 60-65 years old! All their statements are going to look really hideous. If anyone them manage to have grandchildren they will have to lie about it everyday, which kinda defeats the initial purpose in the long run, right?
posted by Viomeda at 8:41 AM on February 21, 2005


You're (obviously) welcome to your opinion. Just don't expect anyone to care.

Quite obviously you body-mod practitioners care a great deal, otherwise you wouldn't have bothered trying to put jonmc in his place, nor explain why you do what you do.

Visible extreme BM is a great excuse to hate the world for judging you based on appearances. All sorts of failures can then be blamed on society instead of oneself. Not that any of you fine MeFi folk would be that sort.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:50 AM on February 21, 2005


Now imagining the following conversation:

GRANDSON: What's that?
ELDERLY KYRADEMON: Well, Timmy, I'd like to tell you the truth and say that they're forms of jewelry and decoration. But now that I'm old, I am required to lie about it every day, so let's just say . . . I was in a horrible industrial accident!
G: Uh?
EK: Yes, the explosion drove these metal bits RIGHT THROUGH MY BODY!
G: EeeK!
EK: And these markings? They're the HIDEOUS SCARS!
G: AAAAAAA!
EK: That's right. Timmy, run! Run and never look back!

Honestly, where do you people *get* this stuff?

And on preview, five fresh fish: I don't particularly care whether or not people *like* my body mods. I do, however, find it annoying when people who don't even know me assume that because I have them, I am, for example, white trash, or, let's say . . . use them as an excuse to blame my failures on society, rather than myself? Can you see why that might be irritating?
posted by kyrademon at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2005


Maybe someone can give me a hand because what I want to know is, what are all these extremist hardcore kiddies going to do when they are 60-65 years old!

It'll be our generations equivalent of the graying ponytail only more difficult to cut off. Barbed wire tats wrapped around saggy, wrinkled old man pecs and knotwork design back tattoos next to colostomy bags are going to be amusing sights indeed. The Gen-X old folks home is going to be a strange place.
posted by jonmc at 10:30 AM on February 21, 2005


A college friend of mine had tattoos, a shaved head, and a large number of facial piercings. It was almost physically painful for me to watch him eat, because lip rings give me the heebie-jeebies. But I liked him a lot. He was a sweet, generous, friendly person, and one day he killed himself. And everyone who knew him as a person was shocked, but people who didn't really know him said things like, "You could tell he was headed for suicide just by looking at him."

I think my friend's motives for looking freaky had very little to do with blaming society or wanting attention. Maybe he was expressing his deepest feelings on his skin, maybe it was an unconscious cry for help, or maybe he just liked the way it looked. I'll never know.

But since then, I've often wondered about why people pierce and tattoo. And why many otherwise open-minded people have such an extreme reaction against it.
posted by naomi at 10:46 AM on February 21, 2005


Hey Kyrademon, you must expect people of all sorts to react and star at your outrageous body statements. If you don't expect this then why bother wasting your energy defending yourself. I was always under the impression that people who did stuff like this could handle the repercussions from parents and society. I think a lot of body art is beautiful and also creepy but what the hell, who am I to judge. However, the symbolic merit of body art is for you and you only, so why does one care if one is a rebel. If you know and believe you are not trailer-trash then say you are not, that is that. If what you do to your body doesn't hurt you that bad then why to the implications get your hackles up. The birth of the tattoo never came from people who felt the need to explain themselves.
posted by Viomeda at 11:21 AM on February 21, 2005


sorry for typo, star=stare, as in observe, gawk, and follow around the room with eyes.
posted by Viomeda at 11:23 AM on February 21, 2005


...everyone who has one is an emo lemming...

Bwa ha! I'm a college student, and most of my friends think I'm a freak because I have zero body mods. I don't even have any sweet scars to show off at Wayside's. I've sort of turned it to my advantage, though.
Me: "Hey, you know what's really sweet?"
SceneKid: "Ugh?"
Me: "I have no mods. That's right."
SceneKid: "Unggh??!"
Me: "Hardcore, eh? You'll never be able to say that, will ya?"

Personally, I like body mods. They piss off the boomers, and anything that pisses off the boomers makes my day. Especially when it's other boomers pissing off the 50something crowd.

I should recount, however, that my mother, venerable old bastion of waspishness that she is, once denied a full-ride scholarship to a highly qualified undergraduate because the girl had a tongue piercing.

How's that set yer kettle boilin'? Yep.

Body mods are far better, imho, than the stupid white belts, shoepolish hair dye, obscure band badges, Buddy Holly glasses, mopeds,faux-shyness, uppity, coffee-house dwelling trendy general asshole-ness of the emo/indy kid crowd. If you want to make a serious statement, make it something permanent, stand behind your beliefs. Don't pretend like you know how to play the guitar and then wipe off your black nailpolish when grandma comes over.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:42 AM on February 21, 2005


Viomeda - because people who make untrue assumptions - about me or anyone else - annoy me. I can handle the "repercussions" quite well, thank you, but if I hear someone say something which is kind of ludicrously untrue about me, I prefer to call them on it.

Naomi - I wish I could offer more insight into why people get body mods. My only reason is, I think they look pretty. That's it, really.

As to why some have such an extreme reaction against it, I can probably offer even less insight. I have, however, noticed certain trends among the comments over the years, which may provide the basis for some kind of objective analysis. There are about five categories:

1) You Will Regret This. Some comments seem to have an almost pathological need to convince people who have gotten permanent body mods that they have made a Bad Choice that they will later regret. These generally fall into two sub-categories:
a) People get them when they are young and thoughtless and when they grow older the will realize they are stupid!, or
b) Perhaps they look good now, but when you get old and flabby they will not look so good and then you will see!
I often get a subtext of a kind of sadistic glee from these ones. A close cognate might be thos evangelical Christians who sound kind of happy when they tell you that you'll feel bad about your false religion when you wind up in the Fires of Hell, boy howdy.

2) You Are Just Being Trendy. These are the ones that say they know why you're doing it, and it's a Bad Reason, or, alternately, We Know Your Reason And You Have Failed. The first just flat-out says you're being trendy, assuming that, for some reason, trendy is in and of itself bad. The second is more along the lines of, usually, you clearly wanted to look Special (Rebellious, Unique, Outlaw, Dangerous, etc.) but, since many people do it, you do not, in fact, look Special (Rebellious, Unique, Outlaw, Dangerous, etc.) at all! Ha ha ha! Again, the latter often carry with them that odd schaudenfreude for another's imagined eventual suffering when they Realize.

3) You Did It Because You Are A Member Of A Group Of Stupid People. Closely associated with being trendy. Oddly, this is very seldom, You Are Stupid, but almost always, You Are A Member Of A Specific Group, ALL Of Whom Are Stupid. What group this is varies wildly depending on who's saying it - I've seen them identified as white trash, idle rich kids, goth girls who are fat because they are goths and are therefore fat, sorority girls, etc. A pretty wide variety.

4) In response to someone with body mods attempting to defend or explain themselves, you frequently get Your Trying To Defend Yourself Proves My Point! They seem to be saying that anyone who truly believed in what they were doing, for some reason, wouldn't bother to try to defend themselves, and that therefore they must not really believe in what they're doing. It's kind of a "Methinks you doth protest to much", except it comes out in response to any degree of protest at all, however minor.

5) You Are Sick/Crazy/Diseased. Often this is in response to more extreme body mods, and makes the assumption that they must be doing it because they Love Pain, or It Is A Cry For Help, or some such. Occasionally you see it in regard even to the more minor. This is perhaps the first time I've seen five fresh fish's rather recondite, You Do It So That You Look Different So That When Other People Say You Look Different You Can Blame All Your Problems On People Who Are Bigoted Against People Who Look Different, which I would probably put in this category.

There are probably others I've missed, but I think that covers the most common.
posted by kyrademon at 11:49 AM on February 21, 2005


And in your defense, what I meant by lie is maybe a tactful avoidance of the subject that could influence the curiosity of someone too young to be engaging in this mature activity. I've seen some violent and horrific body art that I would not want some impressionable kid trying to mock esp. if I gave some innocent and unoffending explanation for it. I guess I'm just the type of person to shelter the conscience of a child too young to understand and appreciate what this sub-culture is all about.
posted by Viomeda at 11:50 AM on February 21, 2005


It seems very important to you, krya, to continue to wage a war of words on this subject.

The opposite of love is not hate: it is complete and utter disregard. It is "meh."

Spending your life trying to justify to others how you spend your life is pretty fucking sad. Live it and "meh" to those who want to judge you for it. Sheesh.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:55 AM on February 21, 2005


Kyrademon I appreciate your self-respect. I am annoyed when people draw false conclusions about me based on sterotypes and closed-mindedness. I am not one to relate body art to trailer trash and I'm glad that you have nixed the possibility. I may be wrong but I don't think anyone is hear to falsely lable you. personally, I am interested in reasons why and the often humorous aftermath that is bound to occur. Like for instance, why do people watch Sex in the City and what are the side effects of doing that. Like we all know, life is riddled with these inquiries.
posted by Viomeda at 12:06 PM on February 21, 2005


(On second thought, fff's posts here really fall more into a subset of category 2, the You Have Bad Reasons section, since I'm guessing he thinks his imaginary invented people are more stupid than crazy. Obviously, he's adding in a healthy dose of category 4 as well. Jonmc's "You clearly have some concerns about your personal appearance!" argument would also fall into category 2, I guess, although my reaction to it is along the lines of ". . . and?", so I have difficulty seeing it as a serious objection.)
posted by kyrademon at 12:14 PM on February 21, 2005


Well, you do seem to have thought about this way too much.

I'd like to repeat my assertion that people do a lot of things for a lot of different reasons. It's really not fair to generalize. I've known a lot of people who try very hard to be different, just like all the different people1. I've also known a lot of people who do things other people find odd just because. The former group really annoys me; the latter group has a lot of my respect. At first glance, it's hard to tell the two groups apart.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:26 PM on February 21, 2005


Oh, forgot my footnote:

1) King Missile reference.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 12:27 PM on February 21, 2005


I guess, although my reaction to it is along the lines of ". . . and?", so I have difficulty seeing it as a serious objection.

Well, that's because so often, piercing and tattoos are presented as an example of I-don't-care-what-you-think-about-how-I-look rebellion, but the fact of having visible manifestations of it says that, for whatever reason, you've decided to make you're appeaance a display of how little you care what people think of your appeance. So it's a weird contradiction. It makes sense if your an adolescent but eventually one must put away childish things, as they say.

And so often, proponents of body mods are the same people who would mock someone spending money and time on hairdos, make up, maicures or whatever, when it's really just a niche version of the same thing. Me I think it's all equally silly.
posted by jonmc at 12:43 PM on February 21, 2005


fff: Spending your life trying to justify to others how you spend your life is pretty fucking sad. and EB: Well, you do seem to have thought about this way too much.

What the hell?

This is what I see: kyrademon responded in a clear, open and intelligent manner to the derogatory comments of people who think she's silly and adolescent and possibly white trash. Now she is accused of thinking too much and told that "meh" is a better answer than anything she has said.

Something is "pretty fucking sad" here, but it's not kyrademon.
posted by naomi at 12:58 PM on February 21, 2005


naomi, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not saying what I think of kyrademon, but what I think of peircings and tattoos. There's a difference. I can think that body mods are silly and adolescent and still think that a body modded individual is a wonderful person.
posted by jonmc at 1:04 PM on February 21, 2005


Something is "pretty fucking sad" here, but it's not kyrademon.

Please. Just because we're not erupting in standing ovations and chants of "free pircings for everyone! tattoos will set you free!" does not make this some kind of tragic conversation.
posted by jonmc at 1:05 PM on February 21, 2005


"What the hell?"

Mine was just a comment. It was not meant to be as critical as you inferred it to be. I thought I was mostly defending kyrademon from jonmc's and fff's generalizations.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:26 PM on February 21, 2005


Dude. I'm not saying your point of view on body mods is wrong; I just think it's shallow and boring.

My point above was that it was out of line for fff to belittle kyrademon when she attempted to explain her perspective. Not tragic, just needlessly rude.

And if "thinking too much" is not allowed on MeFi, well, some of us are in big trouble.
posted by naomi at 1:27 PM on February 21, 2005


Ah, to clarify, my comment was in answer to jonmc.

EB, in my experience "you're thinking too much" is usually a disparagement. I'm glad you did not intend that.
posted by naomi at 1:30 PM on February 21, 2005


I just think it's shallow and boring.

How could it be more shallow than the "I just like it," rationale that most people have offered up?

If that's why someone's doing it, then cool. It's when people dress it up in pretentious justifications that gets my back up.
posted by jonmc at 1:37 PM on February 21, 2005


jonmc - I must point out that, looking back over the thread, the only person who's brought up the "I just like it" rationale has been, well, me. The only other "pro-body mod" rationales that have been brought up have been Dark Messiah's joke about metal bands and box's statement about utilitarian sex enhancement. So, call me shallow if you want, but I don't think that can be reasonably extended out based on this thread, anyway.

As has been pointed out by several, the main objection to your stance on body mods is not that it doesn't apply to anyone (it certainly does), but that you seem prone to applying it to everyone. As I've stated before, getting blindly - and incorrectly - categorized is a bit of a pet peeve, both for myself and many others. Which is why I'll cheerfully plead mea culpa to your accusation of vanity (if the shoe fits . . .), but I'll be damned if, especially after that, I'll sit back and let you also say that I'm hypocritical because I won't admit I'm vain, if you see what I'm saying.

naomi - Thanks. I really appreciate your words. To be honest, though, fff's accusations are so far off-base that I mostly find them laughable. Apparently, based on my thread-specific comments in an individual metafilter post made during a slow work day, he has gleaned perfect insight into how I act on a day-to-day basis. His comments are rude, but frankly too silly for me to care much about.

Viomedia - Thanks for the further explanation. Hope you didn't mind my little riff on your words - it just seemed like a funny scenario to me.
posted by kyrademon at 2:09 PM on February 21, 2005


Excuse me?

I am saying that only a fool would give a damn for what I, jonmc, or anyone else has to say about their body, their clothes, their tattoos, their whatever.

I am saying that the appropriate response to anyone who criticizes you -- and those you suppose are criticizing you -- is "Meh."

That message doesn't seem to be taking.

Spending this much effort to deal with my "laughable" and "too silly" thoughts seems to indicate that you care very deeply what I think.

I think that's absurd.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:27 PM on February 21, 2005


Here's another reason for getting a tattoo, since nobody's brought up this one yet. One of my tattoos-- my first one-- is a holy symbol. This shape represents my spirituality and the fashion in which I want to live my life and act towards others. I wear it as a pendant around my neck as a constant reminder. However, I didn't like the fact that I have to take off the pendant nightly and whenever I shower (some people wear jewelry 24 hours a day; I don't know how they do it). I wanted something more permanent to represent my dedication. So I went to a tattoo parlor, and had that symbol permanently branded into my flesh. Any objections, jonmc?

And fff, we do care what you think, if the conclusions you draw about us are completely and utterly wrong. If I were to say, "five fresh fish doesn't capitalize his user tag, so he's obviously a poetry snob who reads E.E. Cummings and likes to eat stinky cheese with expensive California wines," wouldn't that bug you just a little bit?
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:42 PM on February 21, 2005


Which is to say, "People have different reasons for doing things."
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:44 PM on February 21, 2005


Hmm . . . so, apparently, five fresh fish, when you perceive people as misjudging you on the internet - say, by misunderstanding your words, in this case - you for some reason feel compelled to explain yourself further? How fascinating. I've heard it said recently (although I disagree), that if you really didn't care about someone's opinion . . . say, you found it "pretty fucking sad" . . . a far more appropriate response would be to say "meh", rather than to continue to try and make your points clear, as you have. Others, however, might welcome this chance to have a reasoned discourse about a subject you're interested in with people whose opinions you generally respect, as I generally respect you and jonmc. I am glad to see your continued desire to continue the conversation places you firmly in that camp, and not in the that dismissive group of those who merely say "meh" when they find themselves with disagreement on a subject. :)

Seriously, it's not like this is the only thread I've ever posted this much in. I'm a talky little thing, and I've waxed this verbose about copyright law, politics, sex, and gay rights here on metafilter, to name just a few. And those are also all topics I'm personally invested in. So why, all of a sudden, is it bad for me to be anything but above deigning to discuss my body mods? And I never said I don't care about other's opinions - I said I don't care if they like them or not, but I do care about being miscategorized. But there seems to be this bizarre belief that caring about that is somehow wrong because my very body mods are necessarily a sign that I tacitly claim not to care. Well, they're not, and I never said they were. Why should they be? So I'm not going to feel bad or hypocritical about calling people out on their misapprehensions about me when I've never said a damn thing to indicate that I've abrogated that right.
posted by kyrademon at 2:52 PM on February 21, 2005


Any objections, jonmc?

knock yourself out. I'm not analyzing every human being on the planet's motivation for body modification, merely floating some theories on why it's become a huge general trend. And they call it "conformity" for a reason, something's conformist when it's done merely to follow the great herd (which is what I was alluding to with my "prom queen" remark upthread. If you say you're body modding for your own reasons, I believe you, and more power to you. But what I'm saying is that the majority of people doing so today, are not, they're just clueless adolescents.

And fff is right (we so rarely get to agree, it's a kodak moment), what do you all care what a couple of old farts like us think?
posted by jonmc at 3:04 PM on February 21, 2005


"five fresh fish doesn't capitalize his user tag, so he's obviously a poetry snob who reads E.E. Cummings and likes to eat stinky cheese with expensive California wines," wouldn't that bug you just a little bit?

About something so absolutely trivial, I could not care less what you think. Go wild with the suppositions. Start doing some numerology on the name and see where that leads you.

I don't think we're having any sort of disagreement here. Do whatever the hell you want with your body. My god, it's not like you're any sort of extremist: winner of that award is the dude in Britain who rendered himself limbless and now feels "complete."

As far as "I'm not going to feel bad or hypocritical about calling people out on their misapprehensions about me when I've never said a damn thing to indicate that I've abrogated that right." goes, consider this:

We are but cavemen in tuxedos. For all the sophistication we think we have, our primitive brain rules our emotions and our initial reactions. We are designed from the ground up to make snap judgements and feed, fuck, fight, or flee.

Some people choose to live in a manner that pushes the primitive brain's buttons. Little should they be surprised when the instinctive reaction runs counter to open and friendly social interaction.

Getting upset about that is a little like getting upset at salmon for swimming upstream.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:34 PM on February 21, 2005


Perhaps, fff, but that seems to imply that I'm extremely upset by some of the things that have been said here. In fact, I'm somewhere between mildly amused and slightly irritated by them. I'm posting a lot because, quite honestly, there isn't a lot to do here at work today, so I might as well chat about a subject I'm interested in.

My interpretation of the conversation I've been having with jonmc here, for example, is something along the lines of:
"Body mods are boring and cliche. Resist the vanity industry."
"I don't find them boring and cliche. Why should I?"
"I was expressing my specific dislike of people who take pains with their appearance while claiming not to care about it."
"Oh. OK. But I still think you have a tendency to overgeneralize, then."
. . . and that's about the sum of it, with admittedly a lot more verbiage (because occasional misunderstanding that needs explanation is fairly frequent on metafilter), some unrelated discussions with other people like naomi, and a little bit of poking fun at some ideas I found amusing. So, when in response to *that* conversation, you come in and tell me I'm sad and absurd and wasting my life in pointless defensiveness . . . well, yeah, I must admit it seemed a little silly to me.
posted by kyrademon at 4:17 PM on February 21, 2005


K. Whatever.

Or, in other words, "Meh." :-)
posted by five fresh fish at 5:51 PM on February 21, 2005


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