Comments on: D&D gains another critic...

D&D gains another critic...

naxosaxur — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:51:57 -0800

Teens in Israel need to find a new hobby: Incoming recruits to Israel's Defense Forces (Tzahal) who divulge playing Dungeons & Dragons are being flagged with low security clearance and psychological disorders. New guidelines are in place that limit D&D hobbyists from being considered for sensitive army positions such as Sayeret Mat'Kal, one of the most elite designations of Tzahal. Why does the IDF believe the game is so dangerous?: "These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality – elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions." Many find this policy inexplicable, and are turning to humor to aleviate the ridiculousness.

By: matteo

matteo — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:59:11 -0800

I didn't know that, as the main link states, "many of them are from the former Soviet Union where the game is very popular.". interesting post, thanks. and the "humor" link is funny. anyway, D&D fans seem the perfect choice to guard the homes of people who think that the Book of Genesis is a legal, binding document

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:02:01 -0800

Well, do you really want someone in your army running at the enemy, screaming: "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!"

By: keswick

keswick — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:07:22 -0800

Those are LARPers. They're a whole new level of lame below D&Ders.

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:19:48 -0800

Does a lower security rating get you out of danger?

By: blacklite

blacklite — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:25:19 -0800

Oh, now I'm sad. I feel strongly for the plight of oppressed roleplayers in the Israeli military. Also, wow, did that article have a lot of weird grammar mistakes, and a few typos. Including "teh army". I don't think the IDF mean LARPers specifically, keswick, I think it just made the article easier to write.

By: Steve_at_Linnwood

Steve_at_Linnwood — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:26:17 -0800

Does a lower security rating get you out of danger? One would imagine it does not require much of a security clearance to guard a checkpoint. In other words: no.

By: naxosaxur

naxosaxur — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:36:10 -0800

>>Also, wow, did that article have a lot of weird grammar mistakes, and a few typos. Including "teh army". The only explaination is that the article is from the very very new English-only version of Yediot Ahronoth (Israel's largest newspaper), and has already been online in a Hebrew-only version for a few years. However, with the article written via an ESL writer, and the English version only being up for a week now, I think they have yet to get everything flawless...

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:40:44 -0800

Fortunately, I'm sure the army will never run out of uses for people with weak personalities who have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment.

By: anthill

anthill — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:58:49 -0800

Hang a piece of foreign spy pussy anywhere near a D&Der and they'll do anything you like...

By: syzygy

syzygy — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:59:37 -0800

Ridiculosity.

By: Mick

Mick — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:05:43 -0800

The IDF should at least let them have a saving throw against psychological disorders.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:15:20 -0800

No, one of the restrictions of their class is that they can only level up to a certain point.

By: srboisvert

srboisvert — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:25:14 -0800

I bet the real reason is none of those D&D types can roll higher than 8 for Charisma.

By: The Cardinal

The Cardinal — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:55:09 -0800

I wonder if they're actually talking about D&D or if the LARPers in the photo are calling themselves D&D? Either way, it's still an odd decision to limit their clearance.

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:49:18 -0800

Hang a piece of foreign spy pussy anywhere near a D&Der and they'll do anything you like... Yeah, but you can spot the ones aiming for D&Ders by their plate mail bikinis. One would imagine it does not require much of a security clearance to guard a checkpoint. In other words: no. Maybe they need a talking to about what constitutes security. If they are going to stick a pasty-faced, weak-willed guy whose only thought is how he's going to defeat the evil mage Kronodemonicusm at a checkpoint...

By: davy

davy — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 14:53:03 -0800

"New guidelines are in place that limit D&D hobbyists from being considered for sensitive army positions" But they're shoo-ins for Mossad then, right? Then from the article: "Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game could result in the soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked out of the army." Then D&D might be an ever better draft-evasion tactic than the one in "Alice's Restaurant". Spread the word. Oh, and to back up Steve_at_Linwood: My hunch is that if they do take a D&D/LARP geek, a low security clearance and being flagged as a mental case might well get one marked as expendable -- and thus more likely to get thrown into a world o' shit. What a convenient way to eugenicize weak minds from the breeding pool.

By: blahblahblah

blahblahblah — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:09:49 -0800

You actually have to volunteer for combat duties in Israel, so, for once, D&D players are complaining about NOT being put in danger.

By: amandaudoff

amandaudoff — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:15:39 -0800

As blah^3 said, it's actually really hard to get combat in Israel. These kids are most likely folding uniforms somewhere...and playing D&D while on break. Sounds like a good deal for everyone, really. (Well, except for the really ambitious among them...they kind of get screwed.)

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 15:49:06 -0800

Is it D&D or RPG's in general? I learned quite a bit about squad tactics growing up playing Aftermath n' such. Although lotsa teamwork there in D&D - with some pretty antisocial types. I think this is typical smooth-brained thinking against folks who enjoy fantasy. Why you wouldn't want people with imagination in your military I don't....wait, strike that. Why aren't movie buffs singled out like that? I mean do you want a soldier who grew up knowing how to 'leapfrog' with supressive fire or do you want a guy who stands in the middle of the street without taking cover because that's what Schwartzenegger does.

By: ori

ori — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:13:31 -0800

The IDF should at least let them have a saving throw against psychological disorders. posted by Mick at 1:05 PM PST on March 6 [!] great!

By: bingo

bingo — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:18:44 -0800

I love the Hebrew d20. Do they really make those?

By: Kleptophoria!

Kleptophoria! — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:23:17 -0800

matteo said: D&D fans seem the perfect choice to guard the homes of people who think that the Book of Genesis is a legal, binding document Kleptophoria! replies: ZING CONFIRMATION. No state that was founded on the hilarious concept of Zionism needs to start making fun of D&D fans. That's just too much. And don't get me started on how retarded the Old Testament stuff really is. It's "unclean discharge" this and "kill gays" that for hundreds of pages. (Augustine said "allegory", and that makes more sense to me.)

By: nightchrome

nightchrome — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:31:02 -0800

Guess they failed their save vs bullshit.

By: Aknaton

Aknaton — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:20:47 -0800

I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons And Dragons and not learn a little something about courage.

By: elpapacito

elpapacito — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:35:17 -0800

That all makes perfect sense, it puts 1. geeks with a brain in complex situation, read ..on a field with lotsa variables, including the one you'll die. Being socially inept they'll not question why they were placed there and keep on solving the problems thanks to old trusted mild obsessive-compulsive disorder. Good , here take a spare dice crystals. 2. morons in command..idiots with an high security clearance don't know what to do with the data they have..would you give data to a skillfull talented data thief ? Hell never ! Being socially skillful (gotta compensate for lack of creativity and intelligence) they are less likely to suffer from sexoplitation and are easily directed toward acceptable decision. Problems come when religious zealots start entering the structure, see U.S but also Israel.

By: Hildago

Hildago — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:48:18 -0800

War lead to wargaming, which lead to Chainmail, which lead to Dungeons & Dragons, which lead to the conclusion that people who play D&D can't be counted on in a war. Maybe the generals just don't want anyone else playing with their miniatures in the war room.

By: buzzman

buzzman — Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:21:42 -0800

I have worked with some of these people, and as a rule of thumb many of them are wacked out. Be it too much interest in an artificial reality and not enough in the reality of a serious 24/7 mission, or falling asleep at work due to playing games all night long; many of them are dysfunctional at work because of their hobbies. How would you feel about a bus driver that stayed up all night playing games in lieu of a few hours of sleep? An airline pilot? What happens when "asleep at the wheel" becomes "asleep on the flight controller console" or "oops, I just rammed my tank into the group of civilians because I confused the view screen in my tank for my monitor at home?" Israel always seems to be extreme until the rest of the world adopts the same procedures a few years later.

By: borq

borq — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:46:20 -0800

guess they rather have m on dope, the other way to take a break from reality.....

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:36:07 -0800

buzzman makes a valid point regarding distraction, but it can be applied with equal validity to any hobby whatsoever. Staying up too late playing D&D, playing video games, listening to opera, reading War & Peace, giving the dog a bath, watching "Survivor," masturbating frenetically... all of these have exactly the same result the next morning at work. I fail to understand the specific danger of Dungeons & Dragons.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:30:04 -0800

bingo: I love the Hebrew d20. Do they really make those? Unfortunately its a photoshop job.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 07:49:20 -0800

After battling enough dwarfs and mystical pygmies you learn not to underestimate your enemy. This at least is true. There's nothing like being in a party of name level characters and getting your ass kicked by a couple of skeletons[1] to teach you the need not to judge a book by it's cover. [1]The shock experienced is roughly equivelent to one you would experience if one was attempting to squash a cockroach under foot and one had the roach return fire with an M60.

By: wfrgms

wfrgms — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:33:37 -0800

"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment" ... "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality" I'd like to come to the defense of D&D - but the fact is - as a kid I saw more weirdos and loosers playing it than thoughtful smart types. Maybe it's a generational thing.

By: Dantien

Dantien — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:51:16 -0800

Nothing I love better than people judging other people's hobbies and calling them losers. I know which side I'd rather associate myself with.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 09:25:56 -0800

Me too wfrgms but on the other hand you rarely hear of rpgers doing the kind of anti social stuff that frats and jocks are known for. When was the last time you heard of someone drinking them self to death or ODing at a game? I'd add when was the last time you heard of a rape at game but, well, the stereotypes of the gender ratio are mostly true.

By: davy

davy — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:17:45 -0800

"You actually have to volunteer for combat duties in Israel," I've never heard of such a thing before. Is Israel the only one? "so, for once, D&D players are complaining about NOT being put in danger." That there proves they're mentally unbalanced. Unless shooting rock-throwing teenagers counts as "combat", in which case it's nuts in a different way. Yes I do think there's something wrong with exposing yourself and others to danger for the sake of one's exploiters. D&D/LARP is better.

By: MiltonRandKalman

MiltonRandKalman — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:23:37 -0800

"HELICOPTER ROCKET!" "HELICOPTER ROCKET!" "HELICOPTER ROCKET!" Hmm.. doesn't have the same ring to it. Do these kids know the Palestinians aren't going to throw ping-pongs?

By: kickingtheground

kickingtheground — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:30:56 -0800

"You actually have to volunteer for combat duties in Israel," I've never heard of such a thing before. Is Israel the only one?

Israel has universal conscription (of Jews, at least). However, as with any military, there are a variety of different positions a conscript can fill. In theory, the army has the right to place a conscript in any unit it likes. However, in practice, most more combat-oriented positions (infantry, special forces units, pilots, etc.) have more conscripts volunteering for them than there are slots available. Thus, combat positions are filled with people who, while they did not volunteer to join the military, did volunteer for that specific position.

By: Bort

Bort — Mon, 07 Mar 2005 15:49:53 -0800

I'd like to come to the defense of D&D - but the fact is - as a kid I saw more weirdos and loosers playing it than thoughtful smart types. Maybe it's a generational thing. Or maybe you just hung out with losers? My friends and I played quite a bit, and we are all lean toward the thoughtful smart type, IMO. We are now: a mechanical engineer, a materials engineer, a geologist, and a software developer.