Ashlee Simpson

March 18, 2005 6:48 AM

Can Ashlee Simpson get any worse? Who knows? But it appears that at least one critic has had it with her lack of talent. Because this is America, we have dueling petitions seeking to encourage her to continue or push her off the stage for good.
posted by etaoin (103 comments total)

Let the market decide.
posted by caddis at 6:53 AM on March 18, 2005

what is the deal with your first link? No way is that her official site.

Here it is. Try not to link without looking at what you are linking to.
posted by Quartermass at 6:56 AM on March 18, 2005

oops, i dropped a word from the URL as I was transferring it to metafilter. thanks for the fix.


http://www.ashleesimpsonmusic.com/
posted by etaoin at 7:00 AM on March 18, 2005

That Newsday article was actually one of the kinder reviews of an Ashley Simpson concert I've read, in that the writer conceded that she can, sort of, carry a tune and is more a symptom than the cause of the music industry's ills.

I actually feel kind of sorry for Ashlee. How many of us would have, at her age and with an already-famous older sister, not have jumped at the opportunity to become a pop star? Especially with a father as domineering as Joe Simpson seems to be goading us into it? One day she'll probably look back on her teenage foilbles and cringe, just like the rest of us...the only difference being that hers played out in front of millions of people instead of a few hundred high schoolers.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:00 AM on March 18, 2005

This post makes me wanna la-la. But I do not know how.
posted by dhoyt at 7:00 AM on March 18, 2005

I don't get is Ashlee bashing. I will agree that she is terrible, I don't like her - blah blah blah.

But it has absolutely nothing to do with her as a person, and everything to do with the sorry state of the music business, specifically the "Major Labels."

Of all the "essential" albums released in the last 5 years, how many were on majors? Maybe a few hip-hop albums (Kanye, Jay-Z, Outkast), but that is about it.

They are too busy manufacturing music, and in the process totally forgot that there is so much talent out there that they don't need to manufacture it.
posted by Quartermass at 7:03 AM on March 18, 2005

There isn't always a reliable correlation between the market's decisions and the presence of actual talent. There are tons of awesome musicians out there who can't buy widespread attention, and other who are horrible, but have to beat the paparazzi off with a stick.

That being said, if you like an artist, support him or her. If you don't, forget it. Why bother actively campaigning against something like that? People who sign petitions like that are just prolonging that performer's time in the spotlight. It's not like she's going to read a bad review/petition/web site and suddenly realize, "Eureka! I can't sing! I must find another career." As long as people keep paying for her CDs, and for tickets to see her, and generally grease the wheels of the Ashlee Simpson machine, she isn't going anywhere.
posted by LiliaNic at 7:03 AM on March 18, 2005

Ridiculous. No one is forcing people to listen, are they?
posted by agregoli at 7:06 AM on March 18, 2005

All this sort of thing does is draw attention to the star in question. Paying attention to an idea -- or a celebrity -- strengthens it, even if it's negative attention.

"Ignore it and it will go away on its own" is an excellent strategy here.
posted by Malor at 7:07 AM on March 18, 2005

You know, if she had just fired her handlers about two years ago and not listened to her dad and just used her connections to put a band together and then just toured bars and whatnot, she'd basically get some props for being edgy or punky, because her voice is really no worse than that chick from the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, but no one screams at her for having a shitty voice.

Of course, Ashlee can't write, so she'd have no songs without her handlers and her dad, etc, but the only reason I can see to get angry at her is that she tried and continues to try to pass herself off as being a 'singer' when in fact she could have just been a 'rock star'. She got the fast lane to riches and fame because of her sister AND she can't sing, so that means she engenders hatred. But really, her vocal skillz are no worse than 90% of the electroclash darlings that currently grace the review pages of Nylon and Vice and sell out the Bowery Ballroom.
posted by spicynuts at 7:08 AM on March 18, 2005

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE! This is no post it's buzz marketing.

Did you here about Ashlee Simpson. Ashlee Simpson is the best Ashlee Simpson that Ashlee Simpson can be. What do you think of Ashlee Simpson
posted by Dr_Octavius at 7:13 AM on March 18, 2005

Metafilter: No matter what you go through, you have self-confidence and you believe in yourself, and everything's fine.
posted by tpl1212 at 7:15 AM on March 18, 2005

In a sick way, I'm kind of glad that great indie music is made by people living hand to mouth. Can you imagine how lazy and corrupt they'd quickly get if they were marketed, manipulated and fattened up by the major labels? It's speculation, but plenty of them would start sucking as soon as they signed the contract.

And yeah, for the record, I don't think I own one CD by someone who can actually 'sing', so I can't bash Ashlee for that. I will bash her for cultivating that plucky, coquettish, "My friends and I like hanging out and acting outrageous--just like you (my fans)!" facade, though.
posted by dhoyt at 7:18 AM on March 18, 2005

Of all the "essential" albums released in the last 5 years, how many were on majors? Maybe a few hip-hop albums (Kanye, Jay-Z,

Jaz Z is almost as bad as Ashlee Simpson. Next time you reach for Jay Z or Ja Rule, try Nas or Talib Kweli.

Ashlee Simpson. It's like you coin feed her vagina, and she gyrates to the way out sound.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 7:19 AM on March 18, 2005

Those guys at the Orange Bowl were so mean to her too. I just hope she gets to tell her side of the story.....and what Dr Octavius said.
posted by Armen Tanzarian at 7:19 AM on March 18, 2005

Actually, I can't STAND Simpson and others who are claiming celebrity without actually doing anything, and then blaming others around her when things go badly. The very last thing I should be accused of is promoting her. Yikes.
posted by etaoin at 7:20 AM on March 18, 2005

Spicynuts, what's wrong with her is what's wrong with indie darlings Arcade Fire: no flavor, no ideas and nothing new. I expect musicians that unpracticed and unschooled to have some creativity, song ideas and character to offset the rough edges. Actually the contrast that good songs and rough execution create can be utterly crucifying - look at Neutral Milk Hotel. But I agree with you that most of the electroclash sucks too.
posted by fleetmouse at 7:21 AM on March 18, 2005

I think its time Milli Vanilli were favourably (or at least sympathetically) reassessed. Seriously. They were scandalised because the voices on their hit records were not their own. Now, how much filtering, Pro Tools, EQ etc do you think is used to make every pointless meat puppet from Kylie to Simpson to whomever sound ‘in tune’ or at least like they can sing? Ask yourself how different in concept that is from nicking vocals off a session musician. Poor Rob and Fab at least could dance in interesting ways, had an unintentionally surreal fashion sense (remember the underwear as shirt concept?) and wanted to make people happy.

And the whole lip-sync thing – the worthless Betty Boo (who now pens songs for plastic modern girl/boy/whatever bands) was outed as lip syncer on Top of the Pops in 92 (?) and, again it was a scandal.

Today it is par for the course. How many Girls Aloud ‘performances’ have involved live vocals? I doubt there have been any. But in today’s Society of the Spectacle no one cares about talent, earning success or anything more than a flash of flesh and plastic hummability. I am convinced that in the last decade mainstream cultural development has come to an end because of the structures and techniques of the content industry. I doubt that any great culture has ever come out of a focus group or development meeting.

As for Ashlee – I think that she should be hounded and mocked to the edge of sanity, or at least temporary silence. However, her sort are now life’s winners – her handlers could still find a way to make money from her failure and humiliation. Like a ‘reality’ series for the irrelevant MTV or her breakdown or attempts at a comeback…
posted by The Salaryman at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2005

Even Ashlee Simpson fans should be able to tell that Yo Go Girl! petition is viral marketing. Never mind saving us from Ashlee, save us from her annoying PR team.
posted by fshgrl at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2005

Grouping Jay-Z with Ja Rule? I don't think that works.
posted by recursive at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2005

Spicynuts, what's wrong with her is what's wrong with indie darlings Arcade Fire: no flavor, no ideas and nothing new.

I would argue that this is what's wrong with most music, indie, major or otherwise, right now. But that's really not the topic of this thread.
posted by spicynuts at 7:25 AM on March 18, 2005

This bashing stuff is fomented by failed part-time musicians who wish they were famous and can't understand why the fame machine will never care about them and why oh why they will never have an audience for their own unrecognized genius, when some floozie like this, sob, sob....

Who cares how much talent she has. She's a "pop star". Go back to the musty-smelling piano room, play some scales and fantasize about your never-never gigs.
posted by gorgor_balabala at 7:27 AM on March 18, 2005

dhoyt : " In a sick way, I'm kind of glad that great indie music is made by people living hand to mouth. Can you imagine how lazy and corrupt they'd quickly get if they were marketed, manipulated and fattened up by the major labels? It's speculation, but plenty of them would start sucking as soon as they signed the contract."

Who's to say that that isn't what's actually happening? After all, if the good musicians get lazy, corrupt, and sucky as soon as they sign the contract, then who is to say that the sucky musicians you hear on major labels aren't in reality great musicians that were spoiled by contracts?
posted by bugbread at 7:29 AM on March 18, 2005

"her voice is really no worse than that chick from the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, but no one screams at her for having a shitty voice."

You're joking, right? Karen O's voice is fabulous -- right in line with the Chrissie Hynde school at attitude and delivery, in punked-up form. "Maps," for one, is an excellent vocal performance; wonderful phrasing and delivery.

Re: Ashlee Simpson, as a 35-year-old man, I grok she's not meant for me. She's meant for white suburban tweener girls who aren't quite ready for genuinely interesting music, and that's fine. Everyone needs training wheels. Mine were Journey and Men at Work.

Having said that, I play the Yeah Yeah Yeahs and other appreciably good bands for my six-year-old daughter on a regular basis so that when it does come time for her to fall under the spell of vapid manufactured pop music, she'll have basis for comparison. She already asks for the Beatles and Cole Porter by name. So there's hope.
posted by jscalzi at 7:29 AM on March 18, 2005

And Gorgor, from whence springs your obvious bile since you must be innocent of the charges you level?
posted by spicynuts at 7:31 AM on March 18, 2005

You're joking, right? Karen O's voice is fabulous

I am not joking and if you think she has a real singing voice, you need your ears checked. I like her, I like her style and I love that song "Maps", but I'm sorry, she cannot sing. And I've seen her live. So I know of what I speak. You cannot judge a singing talent by a recording. Ashlee Simpson should be enough evidence of that.
posted by spicynuts at 7:33 AM on March 18, 2005

I doubt that any great culture has ever come out of a focus group or development meeting.

The Monkees.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:34 AM on March 18, 2005

How many of us would have, at her age and with an already-famous older sister, not have jumped at the opportunity to become a pop star?

Not me, I'd take the opportunity to mooch off my already famous older sister.
posted by stifford at 7:37 AM on March 18, 2005

Armitage, I stand corrected. I should have been more specific to say ‘today’. It’s not that culture with a commercial or cynical impulse is invalid by nature – in his own way Shakespeare was a Jacobean B-movie producer – its just that the high risk, high margin, top-down and deeply conservative nature of today’s content industry would see The Monkees as an impossibly subversive (and talented) proposition.
posted by The Salaryman at 7:42 AM on March 18, 2005

"I am not joking and if you think she has a real singing voice, you need your ears checked."

I doubt that. You and I will have to agree to disagree here. Although I will have to say that the live recordings I've heard of the band are underwhelming, although I check a lot of that up to inexperience.

In a general sense I disagree that you can't judge singing by a recording; you can, to the same extent that you can judge acting by a film. Some people are better film actors than live theater actors and vice versa; likewise musicians. Let's not forget the Beatles were a studio-only band for half their career, and there are any number of bands who are great live who can't get it done on a record.
posted by jscalzi at 7:42 AM on March 18, 2005

My roomate an I are big fans of the Ashlee Simpson show. I don't know what this means. Please tell me.
posted by gagglezoomer at 7:43 AM on March 18, 2005

This week I'm working by the Hammerstein Ballroom, where the concert reviewed in the Newsday article was played. Had to walk by it after work to get to the subway that day. Had to fight to get through the crowd of giggling New Jersey MTV-loving girls in their belly shirts and tight jeans (it was 40 degrees outside.)

And yet they had attitude - they were real, man. These were no pop wannabes - they were there to follow every expertly synchronized lip movement, every "ho-down" jig she made.

Good day to be a pedophile. *Ahem* Not that I'm saying I'm one...
posted by fungible at 7:44 AM on March 18, 2005

Of all this talentless crop (Simpson, Lohan, etc), I know the most about, have heard the most about, am pestered the most from all sides about Ashlee Simpson...arguably because she is so so bad.

I sense marketing, in a William Hung (sp) and "terrible american idol tryouts" kind of way. It's so bad...it's good! Bad is the new good, and I think Ms. Simpson is doing pretty well for herself.
posted by tpl1212 at 7:46 AM on March 18, 2005

A freaking BLINK tag?
posted by bwg at 7:46 AM on March 18, 2005

In a general sense I disagree that you can't judge singing by a recording; you can, to the same extent that you can judge acting by a film.

I think, gagglezoomer, that this is pretty naive. There are mountains of software and hardware in a recording studio that can take any note and basically retune it to be on pitch in any key and with any color. Whole industries of knob twiddlers exist who make a lovely living off of doing this. This is how Ashlee Simpson, and scores of others, sound in key on a recording.

We can, though, agree to disagree. My initial point was that talent should not be judged by how on key a singer is, and that given that, recontextualized, Ashlee could have been respected rather than reviled.
posted by spicynuts at 7:48 AM on March 18, 2005

I have an uncle of a friend of a ex-girlfriend's brother at MTV who works on the Ashlee Simpson show and he tells me that they had to cut out this part where Ashlee Simpson goes to the hospital and has her stomach pumped and it turns out she is suffering from cum-toxosis because she drank buckets of semen from passerby sailors.

You try singing after that.
posted by eatitlive at 7:50 AM on March 18, 2005

i just read about Ashlee in us weekly. those guys on metafilter were total jerks.

(sorry)
posted by greasy_skillet at 7:50 AM on March 18, 2005

did i say i was innocent?
posted by gorgor_balabala at 8:02 AM on March 18, 2005

"I think, gagglezoomer, that this is pretty naive."

Gagglezoomer didn't say that, I did.

It's not naive at all. It's a recognition that technology helps some and hinders others. All the knob-tweaking in the world can't coax a genuinely good vocal performance out of someone's throat -- the best it can create is an on-key mediocre performance. People still respond to emotional cues that technology can't create. To jump back into the film world for an example, all the technological wizardry of the last two Star Wars films couldn't mask the dead emotionlessness at the center of them.

To repeat: Some musical artists are better in a studio, and some are better live. For example, I doubt there's anyone who would suggest that Kate Bush can't sing, but it's been more than a quarter century since she's toured; she prefers the control the studio gives her to tailor a performance. Those performances are as emotionally active as any live performance (check out Hounds of Love sometime), and that comes from Bush herself, not her Fairlights and frequent vocal tweaking.
posted by jscalzi at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2005

Re: Ashlee Simpson, as a 35-year-old man, I grok she's not meant for me. She's meant for white suburban tweener girls who aren't quite ready for genuinely interesting music, and that's fine. Everyone needs training wheels. Mine were Journey and Men at Work.

Compared to Ms. Simpson, Journey and Men at Work were high art. Liking them is a matter of taste, but at least they were all reasonably talented musicians and singers who offered up their own creativity.

I doubt that any great culture has ever come out of a focus group or development meeting.

The Monkees.

Not to mention Motown, 60's bubblegum and the Phil Spector stable. The difference is that in those days the suits knew that they didn't have a clue and left the actual musical work to people who knew what they were doing. I'm not necessarily against manufactured pop (since I enjoy the abovementioned music quite a bit), but at least try to do a good job at it. These days it seems to be: 1)find cute chesty girl/cute non-threating boy 2) dress her/him up like a whore/fake hip-hopper 3)make bad computerized backing track with sweetened vocals 4)hope for some controversy" 5)PROFIT!
posted by jonmc at 8:07 AM on March 18, 2005

I hate ashless and her big tats sister.. both talentless mops, it speaks volumes about the next generation of americans for allowing a pair of talentless mindless bimbos to defraud everyone.
posted by drunk7daysaweek at 8:10 AM on March 18, 2005

I bet if you took a baseball bat to Ryan Cabrera's helmet-hair it would shatter in a million pieces.


/leave me to my petty fantasies
posted by dhoyt at 8:22 AM on March 18, 2005

sweet pic dh
posted by lightweight at 8:25 AM on March 18, 2005

it speaks volumes about the next generation of americans for allowing a pair of talentless mindless bimbos to defraud everyone.

Have you heard a lot of non-American bubblegum pop? It's all bad, all over, if not worse. Some traveling is necessary if you think the Simpsons' brand of polished tripe reveals anything political. We don't have a monopoly on desire for saccharine, we just have more money to exploit it.
posted by dhoyt at 8:28 AM on March 18, 2005

I'm just amused that the only reason that Ashlee Simpson is around is because her sister is stupid.

I also blame MTV and her record corporation. Any other time in music history, if a singer was caught lip-syncing and then later booed off a stage in front of 70,000 people for singing badly, that would be the end of their career. But, with all the money and time and resources invested in Ashlee, MTV and the record corporation can't drop her and waste all that they've invested. So, now we're stuck with her. Ashlee will go away, there is no doubt about that, but she won't until her contracts are up, but more importantly until it's deemed that they can't make a nother dime off of her.

I remember a few years ago, when Mariah Carey's record label ate a $20 million contract to boot her off the label because it made more financial sense to do that then actually produce and promate the remaining albums that they signed her for. My guess is that when Ashlee's tv show airs it's final episode in a month or whatever it is that we'll never hear from her again.
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:30 AM on March 18, 2005

Having had my 17 year old neice down to stay with us a couple of weeks ago. She's a huge fan of this talentless dimwit. She had ready responses to my questions about her lack of talent, lack of singing ability and the booing she got at the Orange Bowl.

MTV has her show running nearly all the time and there is a demographic that watches MTV pretty much all the time. It is being forced into some minds that are too lazy to find something else to do.

As for me, she gives me hives and it pissses me off no end that she's made an amazing amount of money with zero talent and solely because she's got a sister who's sold some records (and is also a moron bimbo).

Pop culture sucks by definition. Were Debbie Gibson and Tiffany as bad as Ashlee? They could, at least, sing.
posted by fenriq at 8:33 AM on March 18, 2005

I'm an old fart. As far back as I can remember, there were shitty, talentless pop stars. I had to live through The Bay City Rollers and Kenny, for Christ's sake. Ashlee Simpson is just another opportunistic, greedy little nearly-bimbo making brain-dead music for the chronically undemanding. There's nothing new or surprising about this, it's not a trend; it's the same old juvenile prole-fodder in slightly different threads.

There's a better case for the argument that the pop/rock/indie music scene has generally become tamer, safer, less challenging and more market-ruled, though. But I guess that's not what this thread's about. However, I will just say that if the Yeah Yeah Yeahs are supposed to be any sort of edgy, punky, alternative act then it really is time I gave up and spent the rest of my days muttering about the kids of today and consoling myself with my Beefheart, Can, Fall, Suicide, Lydia Lunch, Diamanda Galas, Birthday Party, Jesus and Mary Chain, Boredoms and Buttholes records. Bah.
posted by Decani at 8:36 AM on March 18, 2005

It's so bad...it's good! Bad is the new good,

Ah hah, exactly, and it's not about music at all, it's about a certain demographic relating to the performer personally. At this moment in time, Ms Simpson is 'one of us' for a certain narrow slice of the population.

Her main attributes then have more to do with age bracket, appearance, and whatever lyrics someone has concocted for her than anything. Musical performance is just the delivery mechanism.
posted by scheptech at 8:37 AM on March 18, 2005

People who produce IE-only sites should be shot.
posted by clevershark at 8:40 AM on March 18, 2005

I had to live through The Bay City Rollers

The Rollers were good pop trash, though. Mark Kingwell once said that it's at the junkfood level where quality standards become most important. He used the difference between a hand dipped and frozen corn dog as an example. Both are empty calories at best, but the hand dipped one is somehow superior.

There's a better case for the argument that the pop/rock/indie music scene has generally become tamer, safer, less challenging and more market-ruled, though. But I guess that's not what this thread's about. However, I will just say that if the Yeah Yeah Yeahs are supposed to be any sort of edgy, punky, alternative act then it really is time I gave up and spent the rest of my days muttering about the kids of today and consoling myself with my Beefheart, Can, Fall, Suicide, Lydia Lunch, Diamanda Galas, Birthday Party, Jesus and Mary Chain, Boredoms and Buttholes records. Bah.

Wow, you're so cool. Can we hang out with you. "Indie" is nothing more than another demographic pigeonhole, with the added annoyance of thinking it isn't one. It's just as trendy and cliched, and if it's so goddamned independent how come every indie zine and blogger always winds up mentioned the same bands at once, too?

The mainstream pop scene sucks, but the "alternative" isn't really all that different, truth be told.
posted by jonmc at 8:44 AM on March 18, 2005

Not sure how long either of those petitions have been up, but there sure are a hell of a lot more signatures for her to step down than to move forward.

Then again, she seems to be the current favorite "artist" that everyone loves to hate. Good for her.
posted by Malachi Constant at 8:46 AM on March 18, 2005

jonmc: well, yeah. Your final point was kinda what I said. Only in a much cooler way.
posted by Decani at 8:49 AM on March 18, 2005

This thread has the most comments today.
Ashlee's doing something right.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:51 AM on March 18, 2005

Fuzzy Monster: well, Bush threads tend to get a lot of comments too. Is he doing something right?
posted by Decani at 8:53 AM on March 18, 2005

jonmc: well, yeah. Your final point was kinda what I said. Only in a much cooler way.

Not exactly. There's some bands who are pure commercial pop who have made great music. And I'd argue that the problem is not that the indie scene has "sold out" or been "co-opted," but that, with remarkably few exceptions, it was always as conformist and trendy as the mainstream. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but it's annoying when it thinks it isn't.
posted by jonmc at 8:54 AM on March 18, 2005

Ridiculous. No one is forcing people to listen, are they?

Unless you attended the Orange Bowl.

Ashlee (don't maternity wards have spell checkers?) is the most prominent example of a reality TV culture that is being forcibly inserted into other entertainment in order to widen the audience. (For similar reasons, by 2010 all movies will be rated PG-13.)

Super Bowl 2004 was the same thing: disregard all the newer, better artists suitable for TV's biggest halftime show, and dig up an artist to dust off "Rhythm Nation" material from 1989. The whole spectacle, including the flop-out, reeked of reality TV sensibilities.

In the Orange Bowl, amidst a game featuring the best in college football, you had the worst in pop music shoved in your face. Sports fans are normally pretty charitable about halftime entertainment. You didn't see Steelers fans booing a weak Sheryl Crow song in 2001. "Up with People" IIRC never got booed. But Simpson can't dance, isn't cute, has an unappealing personality and can't even hit a note. I would have booed too.

Suppose sports pushed the other way: in the middle of an MTV show (pick any), you had to sit through 15 minutes of the Golden State Warriors (the Ashlees of pro sports). The phones at MTV would ring off the hook.

If this reality TV thing continues, the March Madness we enjoy now may become a thing of the past. Instead, no games would be played at all. The teams would room up in a big hotel, and play hopscotch and run obstacle courses. Coaches would gossip about each other while filmed in night vision. Each weekend, the Survivor host would read vote cards as, one by one, teams are voted out of the tournament.
posted by kurumi at 8:59 AM on March 18, 2005

One thing people seem to be forgetting about the Monkees is that they eventually all learned how to play their instruments and released the twisted movie "Head."
posted by drezdn at 9:11 AM on March 18, 2005

There does seem to be quite a few "artists" who are just as bad. The thing about Ashlee is how completely half-ass the whole "career" act turns out to be. I don't think that pop music fans get offended because of fake talent, but they expect a much better show than what's been delivered so far.
posted by clevershark at 9:14 AM on March 18, 2005

Bush threads tend to get a lot of comments too. Is he doing something right?

You forget that a lot of dittoheads consider "pissing off lib'ruls" as "doing something right"...
posted by clevershark at 9:17 AM on March 18, 2005

Or preaching to the choir about "Shrub" on community blogs = "doing something right" ;)
posted by dhoyt at 9:23 AM on March 18, 2005

jonmc, well said, really.
I think most "celebrity culture" relies on our "fascination with the abomination" for it's fuel. We're all rubberneckers on the SuperStar Highway!
posted by Al_Truist at 9:26 AM on March 18, 2005

Fuzzy Monster: well, Bush threads tend to get a lot of comments too. Is he doing something right?
posted by Decani at 11:53 AM EST on March 18 [!]

I see Ashlee Simpson (and other people working in The Culture Industry) as being similar to the Rampaging Ad Logos in that Simpsons 'Treehouse of Horror' episode: namely, as long as people pay attention, Ashlee Simpson will survive. As soon as people ignore her, she will go away. Judging by the number of comments on this thread, people (and not even Ashlee's target market!) are still paying attention.

For those in The Culture Industry, "any publicity is good publicity."

I don't think you could say the same about Dubya & his gang.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:37 AM on March 18, 2005

Slightly OT, but: There's a big, big difference between singing well and having a good voice.

Willy Nelson, Johnny Cash, later Billie Holliday: Technically crappy voices, great singers. Just about any vocalist from the Lawrence Welk show: Technically fine voices, lousy singing.

I really have no idea whether Ashlee can sing nor not. But I do know that if I met her in a bar and didn't know who she was, I would definitely stare happily. (That probably would not last if I actually had to talk with her, but then, that's not what this is about, eh?)

Now, as for "pop trash": I really didn't like the Bay City Rollers at all when I was a kid. But as I look back at it now, I can see those guys were actually pretty damn good at what they did. I think that "junk food quality" observation is pretty astute: Despite their totally manufactured history, the Monkees tunes were good, because the people doing them cared about what they were doing. (Plus, much as his later output puts me to sleep, Neil Diamond could be a hell of a songwriter when he wanted to.)
posted by lodurr at 9:41 AM on March 18, 2005

Fuzzy Monster : This thread has the most comments today...Ashlee's doing something right.

Ah ha...this is exactly my point...I wouldn't be surprised if all this awfulness INCREASED record sales.

"Oh man, I have to go purchase this $25 tin-packed enhanced holographic foil DVD-CD featuring Ashlee Simpson's covers of Operation Ivy...i've heard it is SO BAD...I just have to hear it to believe it."
posted by tpl1212 at 10:36 AM on March 18, 2005

Can Bob Dylan actually _sing_, or could Johnny Cash or Kurt Cobain? _Real_ singing is what the students do, with some amount of success, in the UofL Student Chorale. What the Stars do these days is called "vocals". So, on preview, it seems like I disagree subtly with lodurr.
posted by davy at 10:43 AM on March 18, 2005

Hey Al Truist: what does _The Heart of Darkness_ have to do with a "fascination for abomination"? Are you talking about the narrator's fascination with Kurtz, or are you casting aspersions on Conrad?

If you're actually making a point about the contents of a book, have you heard of Usenet?
posted by davy at 10:50 AM on March 18, 2005

Metafilter: Wow, you're so cool. Can we hang out with you.
posted by AlexReynolds at 10:53 AM on March 18, 2005

Plus, much as his later output puts me to sleep, Neil Diamond could be a hell of a songwriter when he wanted to.

Hell, yeah. "I'm a Believer" and (for himself) "Cherry, Cherry" are great songs. And Goffin/King weren't too bad, either.

I'm pretty sure Mike Nesmith could always play; and Mickey Dolenz could always sing. They didn't learn this on the job. And if it hadn't been for his teeth, Steven Stills would have been a Monkee.
posted by macrone at 11:30 AM on March 18, 2005

And if it hadn't been for his teeth, Steven Stills would have been a Monkee.

I thought it was his receding hairline. Danny Hutton from Three Dog Night was almost a Monkee, too.
posted by jonmc at 11:35 AM on March 18, 2005

You guys are getting really worked up about this Ashlee Simpson character.

If she wasn't paying certain songwriters, others would and we'd have basically the same songs from someone else. If she didn't have a MTV show, then there'd be another show targeted to her demographic, maybe another one of those "My Sweet Sixteen" or whatever they have now.

Yes, someone else may have a better voice, inflection, or stage presence. But all of these realms are places where most mefi members don't give a shit and wouldn't pay attention anyway. It'd just be other people to bitch about.

At least be really dreary about it like The Salaryman was, above. There's no future to this vapid, useless pop music, guys! True talent is never in the mainstream and this is the direction we're all going. NO FUTURE!
posted by mikeh at 11:37 AM on March 18, 2005

There are tons of awesome musicians out there who can't buy widespread attention, and other who are horrible, but have to beat the paparazzi off with a stick.

True. I'm thinking of folks like Aronoff who has become the hired gun to lay down drum tracks on Grammy-candidate singles. It's not just that the music is processed, sometimes they replace the entire band.

Speaking of gripes, does anybody else fondly remember when MTV was about music rather than hours on end of reality television?
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:42 AM on March 18, 2005

True talent is never in the mainstream

Like the Beatles, The Stones, Elvis, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, Frank Sinatra...on and on...

Take a pill, anarchy boy.

[at work, listening to this (good pop trash) and not in the mood for sophmoric self-congratulatory diatribes]
posted by jonmc at 11:45 AM on March 18, 2005

what does _The Heart of Darkness_ have to do with a "fascination for abomination"?

Uh... davy, according to Al_Truist's link, "fascination with the abomination" is a direct quote from Heart Of Darkness. And Al_Truist is quoting that line to explain The Public's fascination with Crappy Celebrity Culture.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 11:48 AM on March 18, 2005

In a sick way, I'm kind of glad that great indie music is made by people living hand to mouth. Can you imagine how lazy and corrupt they'd quickly get if they were marketed, manipulated and fattened up by the major labels? It's speculation, but plenty of them would start sucking as soon as they signed the contract.

Pavement famously turned down a big deal. They knew they'd have to work harder, in terms of promotional nonsense, interviews, management meetings, strategy meetings, etc. In short, they couldn't be bothered being "more famous", and being famous as opposed to creating music is largely the problem.

That said. Motown...
posted by juiceCake at 11:50 AM on March 18, 2005

Thanks, Fuzzy, for trying to set davy straight. That's exactly what I meant. I thought my third sentence [We're all rubberneckers on the SuperStar Highway!] cemented it, but I guess not.
Perhaps Davy just has a particular affinity for Conrad, and thought I was trying to muddy him by mentioning him in the same breath as Ashlee Simpson. eh.
And Davy, if you read my profile you'll see that I've been using computers generally since 1980 & online since 1995 ('round about the time you were deciding to buy a computer to see what this Internets thing was all about)...
Hell yes, I know what Usenet is. Smartass. :)
posted by Al_Truist at 12:04 PM on March 18, 2005

jonmc: On the other hand, I find it quite interesting that when artists do name-drop influences, that it's likely to include people who were "one-hit wonders" or people who have put out dozens of good albums without ever cracking the top 10. So there is something to be said for the fact that talent is frequently outside of the mainstream.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:08 PM on March 18, 2005

Ridiculous. No one is forcing people to listen, are they?

No one is forcing people to read this, are they?

sorry. pet peeve. already Simpson-referenced. Our job is done here.
posted by petebest at 12:14 PM on March 18, 2005

So there is something to be said for the fact that talent is frequently outside of the mainstream.

Well, certain artists are outside the mainstream because they're aquired tastes (like, say, The Dwarves or Captain Beefheart) others (like, say, the Fastbacks or Big Star) had all the tools to be huge stars, but didn't make it because of mismanagement, bad timing and obtuse record company people.

Also, people name drop influences to sound cool, too.
posted by jonmc at 12:16 PM on March 18, 2005

I think currently the "music scene" is the best it has been in a long time. Not because of plastic pop. But the ability of so many more people to put out small release stuff. There is a lot of garbage, but a surprising amount of quality stuff as well. Last year I helped produce a small local benefit album and the music was GOOD. (trying to speak objectively). Right now the major labels are bitching because record sales are down (wonder why?) for them. At the same time they are trying to force DRM down everyone throat. And in general dragging their feet on the whole online music phenom. meanwhile local recording (anecdotal evidence only mind you) seems to be skyrocketing. Podcasts, online radio, etc. Dunno about where you live but in Duluth the music scene is healthy and thriving.

Ashlee's got a hard life coming up after she outlives her fame. Her father should be prosecuted.
posted by edgeways at 12:25 PM on March 18, 2005

Take a pill, anarchy boy.

I think you caught it jon, but I was just poking fun at the "oh no, everything's gone to shit" mentality that always seems to come out. I think our favorite albums will still be there at the end of the day, and I'm pretty sure some of the music of today (or at least the decade) will get added to that list of yours. If not yours, then the list of someone who's grown up with a newer canon.

There's a lot to be said for a wide range of music, from "manufactured" to completely left field stuff. If we just sat around listening to the "best" bands all the time, it'd be pretty boring. I think my mom owned more albums by Herman's Hermits than the Beatles.
posted by mikeh at 12:37 PM on March 18, 2005

I think you caught it jon, but I was just poking fun at the "oh no, everything's gone to shit" mentality that always seems to come out.

cool. I've met people who straightfaced say shit like that and believe it though.

*cranks up "Little Willy," thrashes around cube like a maniac*


I think my mom owned more albums by Herman's Hermits than the Beatles.

"Second verse, same as the first!"
posted by jonmc at 12:47 PM on March 18, 2005

Quantum Pricing,

With the advent of the CD, however, it became possible to make money on low-volume records. Therefore, the risk of bringing out a new record with an uncertain market was lowered. This created a larger field of contenders so that more potential big sellers could be discovered. It became economically feasible for exploratory niches, such as the alternative rock market, to exist in great numbers.

Without any central plan, without anyone predicting it, the higher margins of CDs created a product of greater marketability and diversity. Instead of a monolithic market clinging to a few styles, there are now a multitude of profitable niches. The pop charts published by Billboard in the summer of 1994 contain a Gregorian chant album, a postmodern Polish symphony, and records produced by tiny start-ups. Consumers are paying more to get the product they really want.

just a theory, perhaps, but it makes some sense (warning, the numbers are dated, but the idea is sound, methinks.)

The majors are freaking out because the price to buy into the music production stream has gone WAY down. The only thing the majors have left to control is the distribution, so that's why they want to promote the "sure things" like the pre-digested plastic pop (there's an image!) that's been dominating the last five years. </opinion>
posted by Al_Truist at 12:48 PM on March 18, 2005

Lots of post seem to overlook some points.

1. Pop doesn't mean "mindless shit." The Beatles were a pop band. The Beach Boys were a pop band. The Decemberists are a pop band. Something doesn't have to be utterly mindless to be accessible. People are too busy/lazy to investigate music on their own, and many will argue that the arts are dying a slow death. Decisions by corporations to promote music like this are contributing to the demise of music as art in the public consciousness. They're saturating the market with this kind of stuff at the expense of actual artists. The pop music of the 60s should've been surpassed by now, but it hasn't, and this is why.

2. "You're not being forced to listen" is a bit naive, isn't it? Advertising is virtually inescapable. I don't ever watch TV and yet I'm still confronted with this kind of tripe because the corporate sponsors have the funds to hit me with it anyway.
posted by ludwig_van at 1:14 PM on March 18, 2005

i think that Ashlee's actual allure is the fact that she's -manufactured- in such a way as to engender love and adoration from a very small subset (her "fans"), but to elicit a very viceral distaste in anyone other than those aforementioned "fans".

she may or may not be the first, but i'm more and more of the frame of mind that she's specifically created with the intent of annoying the masses so that her core audience feels reaffirmed that they like "the right things; things other people don't like". 'cause, y'know, that's what makes them unique. liking things that other people hate. it makes them feel like they're making a real critical distinction.

and then they spend allllllllll their money...
posted by radiosilents at 1:34 PM on March 18, 2005

Something doesn't have to be utterly mindless to be accessible.

Agreed. But sometimes "totally mindless" can = great popular music. (examples: "Louie Louie," "Wooly Bully," "Speedoo," "Wig Wan Bam," "Sugar Shack," "Twist & Shout" "Shout" "Ain't Got No Home" "Quarter To Three"; all of which have held up better than many "serious" products (failed ones admittedly, nothing dates worse than failed seriousness) of the same era).

But Ashlee and her ilk lack the heart and spontanaeity to create good mindlessness even.
posted by jonmc at 1:37 PM on March 18, 2005

and of course, the greatest totally mindless record of all time: "Surfin' Bird."

Everybody's heard about the bird......
posted by jonmc at 1:38 PM on March 18, 2005

Agreed. But sometimes "totally mindless" can = great popular music.

True, but I think the only greatness in those cases comes from doing something which is in some way new. At one point, the very idea of "rock and roll music" was new and challenging, and so it didn't have to be very musically intense or intellectually probing. It made a statement by existing; its form was its content, in a sense. That was 50 years ago, though, and people like Ashlee and co. are adding nothing of their own creation -- they're regurgitators and knob-twiddlers, and not even the best in either respect.

Unless you want to make the case that Ashlee is a big postmodern experiment of some kind, a sort of meta-performance art in which someone as generic and undeserving as possible is packaged and marketed in such a way as to be envied and idolized, thereby making some kind of statement about society's habits. But I'm not so sure about that.
posted by ludwig_van at 1:45 PM on March 18, 2005

Did someone say Ryan Cabrera?
posted by teg at 3:22 PM on March 18, 2005

Ashlee's actual allure is the fact that she's -manufactured- in such a way as to engender love and adoration from a very small subset (her "fans"), but to elicit a very viceral distaste in anyone other than those aforementioned "fans".
Think she writes her own songs -- next you will tell me her boyfriend Ryan does the same. From meeting with him several times, say no, not manufactured unless you mean, self made. Quit reading the tabloids, “ya’ll being trolled” as these two fellow Dallasites, Ashlee & Ryan might say…
posted by thomcatspike at 3:27 PM on March 18, 2005

Think she writes her own songs -- next you will tell me her boyfriend Ryan does the same. From meeting with him several times, say no, not manufactured unless you mean, self made.

I can't tell if you're saying that she does or doesn't write them. She doesn't though, not in a very meaningful sense.

(http://chat.msn.com/msnlive_feature.msnw?id=artist/ashleesimpson)

Discussing the album in an interview, Simpson said: "I was extremely involved in everything cos I felt that it was my baby and I wanted to be hands-on."2 She nevertheless worked closely with a number of experienced songwriters. The album's producer, John Shanks, who has worked with a number of other successful female artists, receives songwriting credit alongside Simpson on all but two songs. Kara DioGuardi also receives songwriting credit, together with Simpson and Shanks, on seven of the songs, including the three singles. Others are credited on three songs—four people, in addition to Simpson, are credited on the song "Unreachable", including Sugar Ray drummer Stan Frazier. (See the track listing.)
posted by ludwig_van at 3:31 PM on March 18, 2005

One thing people seem to be forgetting about the Monkees is that they eventually all learned how to play their instruments and released the twisted movie "Head."

drezdn, darling, I certainly haven't forgotten! (I was about to write "I adore Head," then realized that the Monkees were even more brilliant than I previously thought. Like Rex Reed would have ever written "Head is a waste of time," or "One hour into Head and I was bored to tears.")

I doubt that someday Ashlee's going to pick up a guitar, ingest a few mind-expanding substances, grow a wicked pair of sideburns, and sing a Neil Diamond song so well she nails the motherscratcher to the wall, but I'd sign a supporting petition if she even gave it a shot.
posted by melissa may at 3:50 PM on March 18, 2005

KirkJobSluder : " Speaking of gripes, does anybody else fondly remember when MTV was about music rather than hours on end of reality television?"

I remember when MTV launched, and played music, and then I remember when it played specialty shows, and then I remember when it played music, and then I remember when it played The Young Ones and Ren & Stimpy, and then when it played music, and then the first wave of reality shows (before the genre had a name) with The Real World, and then I remember when it played music again, and then I lost track.

MTV constantly cycles between periods of lots of music and periods of lots of TV shows.
posted by bugbread at 3:54 PM on March 18, 2005

Because I just spent 20 minutes looking for the link again after expecting it to be in this thread, here's the link to the awesome Ashlee parody video I watched this morning and assumed would be all over the web by now (but I couldn't find via Technorati, del.icio.us, or all those other hip "what people are talking about today" sites).
posted by VulcanMike at 4:29 PM on March 18, 2005

Whoa. I just watched the whole thing for the first time. Um... sorry for the ending...?
posted by VulcanMike at 4:59 PM on March 18, 2005

The Monkees as a group were manufactured, sure, but each member did possess a certain amount of talent to begin with - Mike Nesmith played guitar and was a prolific songwriter (his "Different Drum" was a hit for a young Linda Ronstadt), Davy Jones had starred on Broadway in "Oliver!", Peter Tork had paid his dues in the cafes of Greenwich Village and was proficient on piano, guitar and banjo, and Mickey Dolenz had been a child actor and had a heck of a pop singing voice, which is why he was selected as lead vocalist on many of their hits.

I had never heard of Ashlee Simpson until I saw her on SNL, and then I started watching her MTV show. This poor kid is so surrounded by sycophants and svengalis, it's no wonder she gleefully shrugs off the SNL and Orange Bowl disasters. During her Orange Bowl performance, MTV showed her father and other members of her "entourage" side stage commenting "Oh, she sounds great!", "She's doing good", "Awesome!" etc etc, despite the fact that her caterwauling could've stripped the glaze off of a bathtub.
posted by Oriole Adams at 10:18 PM on March 18, 2005

Plus she was one of the insufferable girls on Seventh Heaven, for which she deserves everything she gets.
posted by fshgrl at 8:12 AM on March 19, 2005

I cannot believe that anyone cares whether this no talent bloodless suburban muppet lip-synchs to the so-called music. Is it any wonder that the media corps are losing money? Downloads aren't the problem; talentless hacks are the problem.

current totals on the petitions: 441 support Ashlee (although the comments would not support that)

350,871 say she should be banned-for-life (and the comments do support that.

Me, I'm listening to Albert Ayler Live At Slugs. God was he amazing.
posted by beelzbubba at 10:58 AM on March 19, 2005

There's no comparison between this girl and the Monkees. As Frank Zappa said in "Head":

Frank:  You've been working on your dancing though.
Davy Jones:   Oh, yeah...glad you noticed it.
Frank:  It doesn't leave much time for your music.  You should spend more time on it because the youth of America depends on you to show the way.

The Monkees are not without talent. Even eliminating their music or musicianship as a comparison point, there is still some acting, comedy, and dancing talent here and there. The only talent Ashlee seems to have is for making an ass of herself in front of huge audiences. This is also her only entertainment value, which is why people enjoy mocking her. (I've never seen her TV show, though, and don't know anything about it.)

the Golden State Warriors (the Ashlees of pro sports)
heh.
posted by obloquy at 3:04 PM on March 19, 2005

*crawls out from rock he has been under...

Ashlee Simpson, whos that? Oh, i don't like her. Heh, seems nobody does. Bah! Pity the fool.

*cranks the DEVO bootleg back up, crawls back under rock...
posted by schyler523 at 1:07 AM on March 20, 2005

*cranks the DEVO bootleg back up, crawls back under rock...

schyler523: which Devo bootleg? jonmc probably needs to know so he can decide whether he wants to hang out with you or not.
posted by Decani at 10:19 AM on March 20, 2005

jonmc dosen't care much for Devo, but thanks.
posted by jonmc at 11:13 AM on March 20, 2005

The Monkees are not without talent.

Damn straight. I can still crack up watching old Monkees episodes (which, sans cable, I do rarely). They may not have been a "real" pop band, but they were real actors, and there were real scripts and there were real good songs by real good songwriters, and when it all worked together it was real, good pop trash and occasionally really funny. And what's more, nobody really pretended that it was anything more than what it was: A TV show with pop-music cross-marketing.

It was a more naive time. It would be hard to do something like that now, because our irony fatigue has so strenuously shaped what we can like or find amusing or identify with or not.

Put another way, The Monkees were music hall farce (which is a compliment, by the way). They were what you got when you got a bunch of people together to run a scam on a TV production company ("let's trick them into letting us make something we think is funny"). It would be hard to keep the suits off of it, nowadays.
posted by lodurr at 8:36 AM on March 21, 2005

Re: Devo bootleg...

hmmm...I honestly do not remember with clarity which one i was listening to, but i think that it was 05-28-1977...
posted by schyler523 at 12:14 AM on March 25, 2005