Comments on: it's all on livejournal

it's all on livejournal

nile_red — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:43:14 -0800

Jeff Weise's livejournal. The rumors over at livejournal are that Jeff Weise, the shooter in the Red Lake school shooting was a member.

By: incomple

incomple — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:00:14 -0800

I noticed that he said it was a new journal, so I decided to look for the old one. After digging around a bit, no results. I checked for other journals that list that town as their location hoping to maybe, in a sad, voyeuristic sort of way, get an insight into how someone that age reacts to a school shooting, but it doesn't seem like anyone there has been blogging for months and months. Oh well.

By: glider

glider — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:02:19 -0800

I wonder if this why ljdrama.org is currently offline...

By: incomple

incomple — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:09:01 -0800

Also, this is kind of a shitty thing of me to say, but what is it about hopeless, poor, nowhere towns that inspires their high school kids to continue to listen to Nirvana? I don't remember Nirvana's music having any sort of particular appeal to a person stuck in that situation, and I grew up in a poor suburb of Dayton, OH so I'm not naive enough to think that they're ten years behind the times, so I'm genuinely wondering what it is. Be in Red Lake, Minnesota, Webster, New York, or Fairborn, Ohio there's something about poor, run down cities that draws kids to listen to Nirvana, and I don't get it. Especially when the Smiths are so much more appropriate.

By: breezeway

breezeway — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:15:57 -0800

Alright, guys, listen up: the scuttlebutt is, there are rumors that someone heard something, somewhere, and get this -- it's a real hot rumor, is all I'm saying. You gotta hear it. It's ama-a-a-azing, I swear. What's that? You want a link?

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:16:04 -0800

Johnny Marr's guitar stylings are too nuanced for those kids. They require just three chords thru a Big Muff to wallow properly.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:18:41 -0800

Be in Red Lake, Minnesota, Webster, New York, or Fairborn, Ohio there's something about poor, run down cities that draws kids to listen to Nirvana, and I don't get it. Loud, distorted guitars. Big violent drums. These sounds offer sonic deliverance in a way that the more subdued sounds of The Smiths (whatever other charms they may hold) don't.

By: incomple

incomple — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:20:19 -0800

Touché, dhoyt and jonmc. Also, if they're anything like the kids where I grew up, they'd be able to see right through it and tell that MORRISSEY WAS TOTALLY A FAG DUDE!!

By: hupp

hupp — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:20:24 -0800

I was reading cnn.com and they mentioned that he reportedly had made postings on neo-nazi message boards. I think to myself, "I be someone on mefi has dug up something on this", and see this at the top of the page. When I heard there was a big school shooting in Minnesota my heart went through the floor. I have a sister in high-school up there.

By: cilantro

cilantro — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:22:21 -0800

incomple- how does their music not appeal to kids in hopeless nowhere towns? alienation, unrequited love, disillusionment, it's all there. I agree that the Smiths do it better, but they're a little fey for today's typical black-clad fake-punk rock-and-roll youth. Basically, though, Nirvana has already joined the ranks of bands/musicians like Led Zeppelin, Janis Joplin, The Doors, and Jimi Hendrix--talented flame-outs that, many years after their demise, still appeal to teenage stoners of all demographics and, on preview, what everyone else said.

By: cilantro

cilantro — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:23:26 -0800

I can't believe I just said that the Doors were talented.

By: grimcity

grimcity — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:25:40 -0800

hupp... Google cache of the message boards in question here.

By: incomple

incomple — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:27:55 -0800

Fair enough, cilantro. It just seems like there's music that's so much more depressing or so much... Harder and heaver, but I get it now. I think they probably also have the most t-shirt real estate of any gloomy, dirge-y band, which colours my opinion.

By: sciurus

sciurus — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:32:04 -0800

Livejournal previously seen in this currently active thread: http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/40624#885119

By: dfowler

dfowler — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:34:23 -0800

Nirvana SFW

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:34:52 -0800

Oddly, when I was in high school, the only people who listened to the Smiths were wealthier drama club types and depressive girls (no offense to former drama clubbers or Smiths fans), the Dead End Kid types were more into G&R, Metallica and Slayer or maybe the Descendents, Jane's Addiction, and The Dead Kennedy's if they were more adventurous. This was the mid-80's in the northeast, so things might vary by locale.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:36:00 -0800

I wonder if this why ljdrama.org is currently offline... Saw the site yesterday in the shooting thread. The comments were being filled with worse pictures than "the man that will not be named on this site." Add, the comments turned into a hurricane groin storm, NTSMA. My speculation for what drove him to commit the crimes. Being a parentless stoner loner wrongly accused for the deadly phone threats to the school. Which snapped his quiet relaxed demeanor into a ragging nothing to live for.

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:36:39 -0800

what is it about hopeless, poor, nowhere towns that inspires their high school kids to continue to listen to Nirvana? Take a drive through Cobain's hometown of Aberdeen, Washington and suddenly everything will make sense. Also, what jonmc said.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:40:34 -0800

fyi, the speculation came from his comments on both sites.

By: dhoyt

dhoyt — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:43:59 -0800

Hard to believe all these School Shooting Avenger-types prefer Nirvana, Marilyn Manson & NIN to HellHammer, Black Goat or Impaled Nazarene. I mean, those bands are practically over here screaming, "Disillusioned murderers of the world, please give us some cred! Please scrawl our names on your acid wash", but kids today, they don't listen.....

By: Fuzzy Monster

Fuzzy Monster — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:46:37 -0800

Hey gang! Let's start a band called Hurricane Groin Storm! Who's in?

By: incomple

incomple — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:48:44 -0800

I'm betting that's true everywhere jonmc. Pretty much all of the kids I knew in high school who listened to the Smiths and Joy Division and the Cure and all of that were artsy outcasts who were 30 pounds from a healthy weight (one way or the other). I listened to them but then again, I also read the NME and knew the words to every song on Parklife, so I was just kind of a bizarre dandy fop. I, as a high school kid who was fairly happy and mentally healthy, only have to look back and regret the endless hours listening to Radiohead and Massive Attack. Also, dhoyt, EXACTLY! It seems like if you're going to be a murderer you should ramp up your musical tastes a bit to suit, if only because it's no fun for scared mothers to demonise and ban the music of a dead man.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:49:28 -0800

I think one teenage killer, Caleb Something was into Cradle Of Filth and Electric Hellfire Club. The West Memphis Three were into Metallica & Slayer, but they might be innocent, so that skews the equation. Some "Pro-life" terrorist used "Atomic Dog," as a code name, which tells me he liked P-Funk. You just can't tell.

By: spock

spock — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:53:15 -0800

Shouldn't anyone who signs up for a LiveJournal account automatically be placed on a watch list?

By: Cyrano

Cyrano — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:55:28 -0800

when I was in high school, the only people who listened to the Smiths were wealthier drama club types and depressive girls (no offense to former drama clubbers or Smiths fans), the Dead End Kid types were more into G&R, Metallica and Slayer or maybe the Descendents, Jane's Addiction, and The Dead Kennedy's if they were more adventurous. In my experience, it was pretty much the same in Texas around the same time (although G&R wasn't considered kosher for the really hard core wastoids.) It's ama-a-a-azing, I swear. What's that? You want a link? Nah. Just an inline image.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:03:20 -0800

Pretty much all of the kids I knew in high school who listened to the Smiths and Joy Division and the Cure and all of that were artsy outcasts who were 30 pounds from a healthy weight (one way or the other). Most of the Metal kids weren't exactly the King and Queen of the Hop either. I did get freindly with a lot of the Smiths crowd in classes and stuff, and they always seemed vaguely perplexed by me. (Although all the goth/punk kids did like Metallica back in the Ride The Lightning days.)"You seem like smart guy," they'd say "Why do you hang out with those boneheads/listen to that music/dress like that?" Which would make me exagerrate my boneheadedness even more out of some perverse pride. (Which is a shame, because looking back, some of those girls were cute and I probably could've scored a few times, but i digress) Because we had a lot of fun raising hell and being stupid teenagers is why.

By: Melinika

Melinika — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:10:49 -0800

By: shoepal

shoepal — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:20:54 -0800

from Waxy.org, here is the Nazi Forum cache.

By: fshgrl

fshgrl — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:22:57 -0800

the only people who listened to the Smiths were wealthier drama club types and depressive girls It was the same in England in the 80s when they first came out and their fans were primarily disaffected middle class youth. Don't you let anyone tell you otherwise, especially NME.

By: Igor XA

Igor XA — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:25:07 -0800

three entries and comments turned off? bah. WHERE ARE T3H N00DZ?!

By: Demogorgon

Demogorgon — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:27:51 -0800

"Be in Red Lake, Minnesota, Webster, New York, or Fairborn, Ohio there's something about poor, run down cities that draws kids to listen to Nirvana, and I don't get it." It's pretty remarkable how quickly events like this turn into discussions about music. "Hard to believe all these School Shooting Avenger-types prefer Nirvana, Marilyn Manson & NIN to HellHammer, Black Goat or Impaled Nazarene." If the incident in Red Lake was caused by Nirvana, just imagine what would a little Mayhem would do. Really though, I think most of it boils down to a lack of exposure. Most of the more hateful extremists such as King Diamond or Darkthrone never get the opportunity to record their music well because of their lack of a fanbase. They appeal to a very slim minority, and because of it their music sounds just as ugly as the values they represent.

By: nile_red

nile_red — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:28:15 -0800

oops! I didn't see the link to the livejournal on the other thread, someone pointed me at it this morning..

By: breezeway

breezeway — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:28:34 -0800

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:28:58 -0800

The NaziForum stuff was in the other thread on this subject. I'm not really sure why we need two threads on this one topic, but I gues this one is about the Smiths or something now.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:33:01 -0800

Most of the more hateful extremists such as King Diamond or Darkthrone never get the opportunity to record their music well because of their lack of a fanbase. I dunno about that. KD is a 14 karat loonball, but some of the Mercyful Fate stuff is really quite good, musically speaking.

By: quonsar

quonsar — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:37:47 -0800

what sciurus said. does anyone actually, um, read threads?

By: fungible

fungible — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:43:51 -0800

Dec 14th: Welcome to my new LiveJournal! Jan 4th: I'm depressed. :( Jan 27th: Fuck it all. I'm gonna kill everyone because Kurt Cobain told me to. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I give you the quintessential American story. Concise, too!

By: sciurus

sciurus — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:44:33 -0800

does anyone actually, um, read threads? I don't.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:49:58 -0800

First listeners when I was in high school, the only people who listened to the Smiths were ~~wealthier~~ inner city ~~drama club~~ rapper types ... this was LA. Like jon said; "you just can't tell" , unless it's mirrored on them. Ever hear Slayer blared in an all black area? Funny seeing the reactions. quonsar, they read um and post to the one to be deleted.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:07:33 -0800

Ever hear Slayer blared in an all black area? Not in a black area, but they when I went to record signing by them in New York, the crowd was at least half Latino. And my co-worker, a black guy who grew up on the South Side of Chicago, says that Black Sabbath and Grand Funk Railroad were big among him and his freinds. Radio waves can cross neighborhood borders, is what it is.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:09:00 -0800

ok ... nirvana=loud ... smiths=not as loud ... any questions? (i like both bands, btw)

By: taursir

taursir — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:29:12 -0800

I would guess they deleted the comments because every comment was someone trolling. Nothing constructive. I wonder what LJ TOS says about crimes and murder? :P

By: davy

davy — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:29:13 -0800

when I was in high school, the only people who listened to the Smiths were wealthier drama club types and depressive girls From what I saw the Smiths were for pretentious debutantes who saw themselves (and Morrissey) as an Artistic, Deep, Troubled, Sensitive and Misunderstood Elite; except that, besides the typical adolescent weight issues, moderate acne, basic ballessness, and the goofy delusion that they can be Special Too by being consumers of CDs and eyeliner, they didn't have any real problems. That is, e.g., they were in no danger of starving without choosing to, and nobody would have noticed them (favorably or not) if they hadn't rubbed their Specialness in everybody's faces. They were also crappy in the sack. The only black Smiths fan I ever met had been adopted by a white couple and went to a Friends school -- and he became a Smith's Fan hoping to get laid.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:32:36 -0800

and he became a Smith's Fan hoping to get laid. laid by what, exactly? Actually, I was drinking with two Brits a couple nights ago, and we got to talking about music, we agreed on pretty much everything, but when I told him that I hated the Smiths, one of them gasped. Then he thought for a moment and said, "well, Morrissey's very..British." Maybe that's it.

By: yupislyr

yupislyr — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:37:17 -0800

Huh, I read this yesterday from the link in the other active thread, and the last entry had a bunch of comments (like over 200) from people commenting "I'm glad you're dead, you asshole" or "it's people like you that make kids like this snap" and so on - and now they've all been wiped. Even the comments on the other entries. Wonder why they decided to do that. There's some LJs out there of people that have died/committed suicide and they leave the "memorial" comments up on those even if they're trollish. Probably because by around 4am this morning, when the comments were nuked, there were close to 1700 comments. And by yesterday night, most of the comments were the usual shock pictures, random animated gifs, and ascii pictures.

By: Cassford

Cassford — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:24:41 -0800

How the heck did you know what everyone's musical tastes were in high school? Sure, there were some kids who wore Morrisey tee shirts and "Meat is Murder" stickers on their book bags, but I had friends who were neither depressed nor dramatic who were very fond of the band when I was in high school (20 years ago). I don't know how proficient they were at lovemaking, davy. Did your high schools have some sort of high school music poll or something? Were homerooms set up by favorite band?

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:27:06 -0800

cassford, high school tends to be a very clique oriented place, and often cliques are based around musical taste, which teenagers tend to often conspicously display through personal style, so that's where we draw our (admittedly broad-brushed) impressions from.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:35:31 -0800

Me: and he became a Smith's Fan hoping to get laid. jonmc: laid by what, exactly? Whatever he could get. He had a normal sex drive for a 17 year old guy, he went to a Quaker school -- where he was one of maybe eight blacks -- and he was raised by whites in a white neighborhood. And he was a math geek. *** cassford: How the heck did you know what everyone's musical tastes were in high school? One relies on self-reports, mainly: Smiths fans wore Smiths tee shirts and listened to Smiths tapes, AC/DC fans wore AC/DC tee shirts and listen to AC/DC, etc. ("Eclectics" like me wore tee shirts with nothing on 'em and listened to whatever we felt like at the time, by the way.) I.e., on preview, "yes" to jonmc's response. I had friends who were neither depressed nor dramatic who were very fond of the band when I was in high school (20 years ago) Maybe you were lucky. I don't know how proficient they were at lovemaking, davy. Part of me wants to say "poor you", but now I'm reaching the age where bad sex is worse than nothing.

By: berek

berek — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:54:41 -0800

UM, is it just Berek, or does anyone else find the idea of a Native American Nazi to be strange beyond belief?

By: octobersurprise

octobersurprise — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:58:38 -0800

From what I saw the Smiths were for pretentious debutantes who saw themselves (and Morrissey) as an Artistic, Deep, Troubled, Sensitive and Misunderstood Elite Someone called? I liked the Smiths then, but really, we're in Joy Division territory here. Loud, Deep, Troubled, Sensitive and suicidal. Back then, we only listened to the Smiths when we were feeling cheerful.

By: Cassford

Cassford — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:33:51 -0800

Bad sex is worse than none? That sounds like pure Morrisey to me! Well I liked Kate Bush too much when I was in high school. I don't understadn the fascination now, but suffice it say that there was no clique for that...

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:36:23 -0800

Bad sex is worse than none? That sounds like pure Morrisey to me! I thought Morrisey was celibate.

By: davy

davy — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:52:00 -0800

Berek, Native American Nazi makes some sense -- as I failed to explain to my girlfriend yesterday. I do think they're confused though: as maybeParisParamus can explain better, "nationalist" does not always mean "Nazi". (And not all Asatru folks are Nazis either.) My girlfriend and I agree, though in different ways, that it boils down to another failure of the American educational system(s).

By: rcade

rcade — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:04:10 -0800

Weise also posted on the message boards of the conspiracy site AboveTopSecret.Com, as I described on the Drudge Retort [self-link]. His Internet postings read like a time-release suicide note.

By: fenriq

fenriq — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:30:51 -0800

I hated the Smiths growing up primarily because I really disliked Morrissey and his hair. I liked Nirvana growing up because they made good music that sounded like I felt (I've since purchased a new attitude). In regards to this kid and his LiveJournal. It seems like he was looking for help and there just wasn't any offered that he could take ahold of.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:46:17 -0800

jonmc, thought you were not cliquish in high school. Will agree the cliqs have labeled musical tastes yet realize that is at the place they reside; school, work or other hang outs. Then they may change outside the clique where the labels come off. Not all speak up like you when attending a circle that is bad mouthing a musical group that he/she likes. Why labeling a teen's musical tastes is cliquishly lame. that it boils down to another failure of the American educational system(s). How? Don't see any education system befriending a teen. Could see a counselor or teacher seeing some signs thus finding a resolving solution. Or leading him to found peace in his life and moving it forward. Especially for him with his known parent background. All teens have trouble during adolescences even the popular ones. You learn these thing talking to them years after high school. There is no new news regarding the teen years as awkwardly lonesome.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:49:37 -0800

I hated the Smiths growing up primarily because I really disliked Morrissey and his hair. By this can peg your age and when you heard the smiths. Say; 31, heard the smiths in 1988 or later.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:59:50 -0800

jonmc, thought you were not cliquish in high school. I wasn't. But it still was a cliquish place.

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:27:27 -0800

I wasn't. But it still was a cliquish place. bet you blended in well.

By: Cassford

Cassford — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:27:36 -0800

I thought Morrisey was celibate. That was the point. Morrisey also thought "bad sex was worse than none." Of course, he apparently thought all sex was bad. "I constantly spectate upon people who are entwined and frankly I'm looking upon souls in agony. I can't think of one relationship in the world which has been harmonious. It just doesn't happen." -- in NME, 1984

By: es_de_bah

es_de_bah — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:03:37 -0800

my own 'nirvana = homicidal reefer madness' theory has to do with the fact Kurt's lyrics, if you want to try and interpret anything out of the awful mass of drug soaked nonsense, pretty much boil down to ridiculously disturbing sexual/violent childhood fantasies. especially earlier stuff. a lot of kurt's songs read like disturbed, regressed, schizophrenic nightmares: terrible, dirty things in every corner, far more sadistic, depraved, and psychopathic than anything ever sung by EEEEVVVVIILLL bands like Black Goat, Cannibal Corpse or good ol Ozzie.

By: soi-disant

soi-disant — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:11:12 -0800

ok ... nirvana=loud ... smiths=not as loud ... any questions? um, i have one...

By: gimonca

gimonca — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:20:34 -0800

I gues this one is about the Smiths or something And heaven knows, I'm miserable now.

By: tellurian

tellurian — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:58:39 -0800

from Waxy.org, here is the Nazi Forum cache. Not to blow my own trumpet but I believe it was here on Metafilter first* [puts down trumpet] *for some reason this will not go to the post, what's the story?

By: FieldingGoodney

FieldingGoodney — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:02:00 -0800

Fair enough, cilantro. It just seems like there's music that's so much more depressing or so much... Harder and heaver, but I get it now. Let me join in and say : Joy Division would be the one to go for if you're depressed and suicidal - The Smiths are kind of early-teen angst you grow out of, only you still love the actual music (I just feel thought Mozzer's lyrics are a little dated somehow - can't put my finger on it - Ian Curtis' lyrics on the other hand, seem totally timeless).

By: fenriq

fenriq — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:17:10 -0800

thomcatspike, close but off by a few years. 35 and I think the first time a friend tried to get me to listen to the Smiths was in 1989.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:11:29 -0800

Joy Division would be the one to go for if you're depressed and suicidal Excuse me, have none of you ever heard Metallica's "Fade To Black,"? Black Sabbath's "Paranoid"? The added bonus of these songs is that the music gives you the catharsis that pulls you out of the despair the lyrics desribe.

By: Sully

Sully — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:37:34 -0800

The Smoking Gun's posted a flash animation the killer made. It's pretty disturbing. Not bad, actually, if you disregard the storyline. But in this case, you really can't. Check it out kids.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:58:57 -0800

These sounds offer sonic deliverance in a way that the more subdued sounds of The Smiths (whatever other charms they may hold) don't. --jonmc "Sonic deliverance" is a brilliant phrase. Back then, we only listened to the Smiths when we were feeling cheerful. --octobersurprise Hee!

By: davy

davy — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:36:00 -0800

Me: that it boils down to another failure of the American educational system(s). tomcatspike: How? I was talking about a Native American Nazi. And for kickers, try that party's name: Libertarian. National Socialist. Green. See?

By: Peter H

Peter H — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:59:15 -0800

I find it amazing that these two threads have maintained an even simmer of Terri Schiavo and the Smiths but no one has mentioned "Girlfriend in a co..."

By: Peter H

Peter H — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:02:51 -0800

I know, I know, It's serious.

By: inpHilltr8r

inpHilltr8r — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:37:17 -0800

Shouldn't anyone who signs up for a LiveJournal account automatically be placed on a watch list? Unlike say, a 'please watch me' list.

By: Demogorgon

Demogorgon — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:00:42 -0800

"I dunno about that. KD is a 14 karat loonball, but some of the Mercyful Fate stuff is really quite good, musically speaking." That's true. I shouldn't have implied that all artists with low exposure have bad recordings. But how many Mercyful Fate records have you seen at Wal-Mart lately?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:50:27 -0800

I was talking about a Native American Nazi. And for kickers, try that party's name: Libertarian. National Socialist. Green. See? Yes, thus taking your idea further. Is it odd a Native American became the melting pot of the USA?