the boy from Sheepshead Bay
May 3, 2005 1:22 PM Subscribe
Boy, way to frame the post. Are you referring to the columnist or the author he's reviewing? Because if it's the latter, there are better reviews to point to, and if it's the former, why should the rest of us care that you don't?
Here's another review of Douthat's book, from the Dartmouth Review. Much more interesting perspective.
posted by me3dia at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
Here's another review of Douthat's book, from the Dartmouth Review. Much more interesting perspective.
posted by me3dia at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
Care? Nope. But I'm sure selling some books would help him payoff his overpriced education.
posted by fenriq at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by fenriq at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
Overheard at a Yale faculty cocktail party:
F. Scott Fitzgerald: "The very rich are different from you and me."
Ernie Hemingway: "Yes, they have more money."
Fitzgerald: "Fuck it, I'll write a hard-hitting exposé in The Village Voice."
Hemingway: "But what will the good denizens of Metafilter think?"
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
F. Scott Fitzgerald: "The very rich are different from you and me."
Ernie Hemingway: "Yes, they have more money."
Fitzgerald: "Fuck it, I'll write a hard-hitting exposé in The Village Voice."
Hemingway: "But what will the good denizens of Metafilter think?"
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:33 PM on May 3, 2005
Nelson Algren: I bet we could lift their wallets pretty easy, whaddaya say?
posted by jonmc at 1:36 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by jonmc at 1:36 PM on May 3, 2005
I don't care if he thinks I care, and I also don't care if you think I should care whether he thinks I care.
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:42 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by CunningLinguist at 1:42 PM on May 3, 2005
I've read the FPP and all the comments so far and I still have only a very sketchy idea of what the link is about.
posted by heatherann at 1:45 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by heatherann at 1:45 PM on May 3, 2005
Loo: And who are they?
Dr. Klahn: Refuse, found in waterfront bars.
Loo: Shanghaied?
Dr. Klahn: Just lost drunken men who don't know where they are and no longer care.
Prisoner #1: Where are we?
Prisoner #2: I don't care!
Loo: And these?
Dr. Klahn: These are lost drunken men who don't know where they are, but do care! And these are men who know where they are and care, but don't drink.
Prisoner #3: I don't know who I am?
Prisoner #4: And I don't drink!
Dr. Klahn: Guards! (move prisoners) Do you care?
Prisoner #5: No.
Dr. Klahn: Put this man in cell #1, and give him a drink.
Guard: What do you drink?
Prisoner #5: I don't care.
posted by Cyrano at 1:47 PM on May 3, 2005
Dr. Klahn: Refuse, found in waterfront bars.
Loo: Shanghaied?
Dr. Klahn: Just lost drunken men who don't know where they are and no longer care.
Prisoner #1: Where are we?
Prisoner #2: I don't care!
Loo: And these?
Dr. Klahn: These are lost drunken men who don't know where they are, but do care! And these are men who know where they are and care, but don't drink.
Prisoner #3: I don't know who I am?
Prisoner #4: And I don't drink!
Dr. Klahn: Guards! (move prisoners) Do you care?
Prisoner #5: No.
Dr. Klahn: Put this man in cell #1, and give him a drink.
Guard: What do you drink?
Prisoner #5: I don't care.
posted by Cyrano at 1:47 PM on May 3, 2005
Queue's up The Coup's "Genocide & Juice" and gets down with Trump singing Raga stylee!
posted by fenriq at 1:48 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by fenriq at 1:48 PM on May 3, 2005
Woody Hayes: I've had smarter people around me all my life, but I haven't run into one yet that can outwork me. And if they can't outwork you, then smarts aren't going to do them much good. That's just the way it is. And if you believe that and live by it, you'd be surprised at how much fun you can have.
posted by me3dia at 1:50 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by me3dia at 1:50 PM on May 3, 2005
I don't care about history, cause that's not where I wanna be...
posted by jonmc at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by jonmc at 1:54 PM on May 3, 2005
At least he wasn't into that whole Yale thing.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:55 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:55 PM on May 3, 2005
Natalie Dee Says ...
From the Ask Metafilter side
But what if I don't care but do care that fellow Metafites know I don't care, so I post saying I don't care - would my "don't care" be misunderstood as a "care" since I posted?
posted by Dallasfilm at 1:56 PM on May 3, 2005
From the Ask Metafilter side
But what if I don't care but do care that fellow Metafites know I don't care, so I post saying I don't care - would my "don't care" be misunderstood as a "care" since I posted?
posted by Dallasfilm at 1:56 PM on May 3, 2005
At Columbia, I used to totally whip my dick out, just whip it out for the ladies, I'd whip it right out, back at Columbia.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:57 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:57 PM on May 3, 2005
oh yeah, well i used to know a girl when i went to university who went on to become a rhodes scholar. yeah, that's right -- Oxford! oh whoop-dee-frickin-doo. University is one big pile of shit for uppity white people to share amongst themselves. That smug, self-congratulatory, insular, intellectually deluded atmosphere talked about in the article exists at all these big-name centres of "higher" learning. EATME!
posted by yedgar at 1:58 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by yedgar at 1:58 PM on May 3, 2005
But where does the bucket come in, Mean Mr.?
I had a friend in high school -- in a rather shitty zip code -- who did the same thing, only he used a pencil sharpener as a prop.
posted by pwedza at 2:01 PM on May 3, 2005
I had a friend in high school -- in a rather shitty zip code -- who did the same thing, only he used a pencil sharpener as a prop.
posted by pwedza at 2:01 PM on May 3, 2005
In 1977
You're on the Never-Never
You think it can't go on forever
But the papers say it's better
I don't care
'Cause I'm not all there
No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones!
This post dedicated to thirteen
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:02 PM on May 3, 2005
You're on the Never-Never
You think it can't go on forever
But the papers say it's better
I don't care
'Cause I'm not all there
No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones!
This post dedicated to thirteen
posted by Mayor Curley at 2:02 PM on May 3, 2005
Cyrano, thanks for that.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:16 PM on May 3, 2005
The anatomy of a bad book review: writer picks up book talking about his alma mater. Instead of discussing shortcomings of said book, writer talks about himself. In the process, no useful information gets transmitted.
Normally, there's be a lot to discuss. The book by Ross Gregory Douthat, Privilege, is a jeremiad against Harvard, which has become a haven for upper-middle-class "strivers" who realize that once you spend your whole life striving for the privilege to go to Harvard, the striving never ends. The author of the review, Jon Caramanica, is one of those "strivers" that Douthat is pissed off at for ruining Harvard for him.
posted by deanc at 3:03 PM on May 3, 2005
Normally, there's be a lot to discuss. The book by Ross Gregory Douthat, Privilege, is a jeremiad against Harvard, which has become a haven for upper-middle-class "strivers" who realize that once you spend your whole life striving for the privilege to go to Harvard, the striving never ends. The author of the review, Jon Caramanica, is one of those "strivers" that Douthat is pissed off at for ruining Harvard for him.
posted by deanc at 3:03 PM on May 3, 2005
I was engaged to a woman who'd gone to Harvard ten years before. She mentioned it each and every day -- and nearly all the references were about orgies and crazy parties and the like.
Thank God, it didn't work out... she was crazy, and violent when drunk, though very beautiful and bright.
So as you can imagine, I have a pretty low opinion of Harvard and generally of most Ivy-League universities, at least in the humanities, based on her and many other such graduates. (I work with two MIT comp-sci graduates here, and they are both extremely smart, well-educated, cheerful and hard-working people...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:00 PM on May 3, 2005
Thank God, it didn't work out... she was crazy, and violent when drunk, though very beautiful and bright.
So as you can imagine, I have a pretty low opinion of Harvard and generally of most Ivy-League universities, at least in the humanities, based on her and many other such graduates. (I work with two MIT comp-sci graduates here, and they are both extremely smart, well-educated, cheerful and hard-working people...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:00 PM on May 3, 2005
deanc gets my checkmark for best 'Ask Metafilter' answer.
posted by anthill at 4:17 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by anthill at 4:17 PM on May 3, 2005
That smug, self-congratulatory, insular, intellectually deluded atmosphere
Otherwise known as "people who like to learn things." Thing is, all the people running your workplace and deciding whether to keep you on for another year spent years in that intellectually deluded atmosphere. So did the people who produce your TV shows, music, and movies They write your books and your laws. Say what you want, but they're the upper class. And all your bitching doesn't take a penny from their fat bank accounts.
posted by NickDouglas at 5:35 PM on May 3, 2005
Otherwise known as "people who like to learn things." Thing is, all the people running your workplace and deciding whether to keep you on for another year spent years in that intellectually deluded atmosphere. So did the people who produce your TV shows, music, and movies They write your books and your laws. Say what you want, but they're the upper class. And all your bitching doesn't take a penny from their fat bank accounts.
posted by NickDouglas at 5:35 PM on May 3, 2005
Wait a minute, NickDouglas, from my reading on MeFi I though the world was run by anti-intellectuals who hold academia in contempt. Can't have it both ways, dude.
Actually, Nick, your comment explicates the point I've been trying to make about the origins on some Americans' anti-intellectual, anti-collegiate bias: that the only educated people they meet are those with the power to fuck them over.
I was engaged to a woman who'd gone to Harvard ten years before. She mentioned it each and every day -- and nearly all the references were about orgies and crazy parties and the like.
Ivy Leaguers tend to be over-acheivers in everything, including decadence. It's tiresome, really.
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on May 3, 2005
Actually, Nick, your comment explicates the point I've been trying to make about the origins on some Americans' anti-intellectual, anti-collegiate bias: that the only educated people they meet are those with the power to fuck them over.
I was engaged to a woman who'd gone to Harvard ten years before. She mentioned it each and every day -- and nearly all the references were about orgies and crazy parties and the like.
Ivy Leaguers tend to be over-acheivers in everything, including decadence. It's tiresome, really.
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on May 3, 2005
the only educated people they meet are those with the power to fuck them over.
That's a good theory, man. So is anti-intellectualism just envy posing as class consciousness?
posted by NickDouglas at 6:57 PM on May 3, 2005
That's a good theory, man. So is anti-intellectualism just envy posing as class consciousness?
posted by NickDouglas at 6:57 PM on May 3, 2005
NICK DOUGLAS, you're a moron. People who like to learn thigns aren't by definition smug, self-congratulatory....etc. God, where are you from? And, like I said, I spent my own time in university, and so I say it's bullshit. Sure, it's the upper classes who have the financial power, but who the fuck do you think they are without us wee little ones to try to manipulate and exploit? And I'll be right here bitching and hissing. Hello, you putz, the world ain't all black and white.
posted by yedgar at 7:15 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by yedgar at 7:15 PM on May 3, 2005
So is anti-intellectualism just envy posing as class consciousness?
It's envy, it's class consciousness, and it's sadly misdirected against education and intelligence. But that's where we, the cultural and political left, have our work cut out for us.
NICK DOUGLAS, you're a moron. People who like to learn thigns aren't by definition smug, self-congratulatory....etc
Of course not. But those educated people who are smug and self-congratulatory about it, tend to be very mothy about it. And, historically speaking, up until very recently, the aristocracy was the only segment of society that recieved higher education as a matter of course. To ignore that as a factor in modern anti-illctualism is foolish.
posted by jonmc at 7:38 PM on May 3, 2005
It's envy, it's class consciousness, and it's sadly misdirected against education and intelligence. But that's where we, the cultural and political left, have our work cut out for us.
NICK DOUGLAS, you're a moron. People who like to learn thigns aren't by definition smug, self-congratulatory....etc
Of course not. But those educated people who are smug and self-congratulatory about it, tend to be very mothy about it. And, historically speaking, up until very recently, the aristocracy was the only segment of society that recieved higher education as a matter of course. To ignore that as a factor in modern anti-illctualism is foolish.
posted by jonmc at 7:38 PM on May 3, 2005
NickDOUGLAS: !!! I completely disagree with you, on several levels. *hic* *puts down martini*
First of all- you are straw-manning a straw-man.
That smug, self-congratulatory, insular, intellectually deluded atmosphere
Otherwise known as "people who like to learn things."
Seriously. That does not follow, and is as puffed up as it gets. Students at the Lee Honors College at Western Michigan University certainly love to learn things, and try very, very hard to perform above set standards, but they are NOT insular, or intellectually deluded. They spend their time doing community service and reading the damned newspaper. And metafilter. For what it's worth.
Secondly, as for the whole,
So did the people who produce your TV shows, music, and movies They write your books and your laws.
I am the guy that produces your TV shows, music, and movies. And I don't write your books and your laws. In fact...are you tanked? Because, I'm a bit drunk right now and that comment makes absolutely no sense to me at all. And I've a professional history of affective marketing under the influence.
Say what you want, but they're the upper class
Wrongo, mongo. Upper class? You've got to be kidding. We're the sniveling wretches trying to suck a few bucks off the waves made by the upper class.
The guy who writes the TV ad and comes up with the advertiser is NOT rich. He is a dude in a suit (you see hundreds of us every day) and he just wants to break $70k. I know it's hard to believe, but the really evil people are a bit higher up.
On preview: Jonmc - up until very recently, the aristocracy was the only segment of society that received higher education as a matter of course. To ignore that as a factor in modern anti-illctualism is foolish.
Foolish? Did you fall off your bar stool? To state that classical anti-intellectualism is a product of modern man's revolt against aristocracy is akin to saying "We won't put a man on Mars because those damned Europeans still think the world is flat!"
The "aristocracy" in the U.S. didn't last much past the industrial revolution (go ahead, quote lumber barons and investment families, and I'll show you lists of famous poor kids) - aristocracy in the U.S. may grant people the opportunity to attend fancy schools like Harvard, but it certainly is NOT a prerequisite for higher education.
Absolutely charming conversation, dear. Cheers.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:54 PM on May 3, 2005
First of all- you are straw-manning a straw-man.
That smug, self-congratulatory, insular, intellectually deluded atmosphere
Otherwise known as "people who like to learn things."
Seriously. That does not follow, and is as puffed up as it gets. Students at the Lee Honors College at Western Michigan University certainly love to learn things, and try very, very hard to perform above set standards, but they are NOT insular, or intellectually deluded. They spend their time doing community service and reading the damned newspaper. And metafilter. For what it's worth.
Secondly, as for the whole,
So did the people who produce your TV shows, music, and movies They write your books and your laws.
I am the guy that produces your TV shows, music, and movies. And I don't write your books and your laws. In fact...are you tanked? Because, I'm a bit drunk right now and that comment makes absolutely no sense to me at all. And I've a professional history of affective marketing under the influence.
Say what you want, but they're the upper class
Wrongo, mongo. Upper class? You've got to be kidding. We're the sniveling wretches trying to suck a few bucks off the waves made by the upper class.
The guy who writes the TV ad and comes up with the advertiser is NOT rich. He is a dude in a suit (you see hundreds of us every day) and he just wants to break $70k. I know it's hard to believe, but the really evil people are a bit higher up.
On preview: Jonmc - up until very recently, the aristocracy was the only segment of society that received higher education as a matter of course. To ignore that as a factor in modern anti-illctualism is foolish.
Foolish? Did you fall off your bar stool? To state that classical anti-intellectualism is a product of modern man's revolt against aristocracy is akin to saying "We won't put a man on Mars because those damned Europeans still think the world is flat!"
The "aristocracy" in the U.S. didn't last much past the industrial revolution (go ahead, quote lumber barons and investment families, and I'll show you lists of famous poor kids) - aristocracy in the U.S. may grant people the opportunity to attend fancy schools like Harvard, but it certainly is NOT a prerequisite for higher education.
Absolutely charming conversation, dear. Cheers.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:54 PM on May 3, 2005
but they are NOT insular, or intellectually deluded.
That was my point. The words yedgar used are resentful, bitter responses to some intellectuals' tendency to realize that, hey, they know a hell of a lot more than most people, and that's pretty cool.
produce
was the operative word. The writers may be poor, but the rich executives all went to business school.
posted by NickDouglas at 8:23 PM on May 3, 2005
That was my point. The words yedgar used are resentful, bitter responses to some intellectuals' tendency to realize that, hey, they know a hell of a lot more than most people, and that's pretty cool.
produce
was the operative word. The writers may be poor, but the rich executives all went to business school.
posted by NickDouglas at 8:23 PM on May 3, 2005
Foolish? Did you fall off your bar stool? To state that classical anti-intellectualism is a product of modern man's revolt against aristocracy is akin to saying "We won't put a man on Mars because those damned Europeans still think the world is flat!"
I didn't say it was the only factor, genius. And it's a perception not neccessarily a reality. We need to work on correcting that perception. Sheesh. American culture in general is filled with contempt or "wise guys," "smart asses," "intellectual snobs," etc. This is mainly because the right looks diligently for elitism among the left and then milks those instances for all the populist resentment they're worth. I see no reason to supply them with easy fodder.
I am the guy that produces your TV shows, music, and movies.
Oh, good. Now I know who to blame for all the crappy TV, music and movies.
posted by jonmc at 8:29 PM on May 3, 2005
I didn't say it was the only factor, genius. And it's a perception not neccessarily a reality. We need to work on correcting that perception. Sheesh. American culture in general is filled with contempt or "wise guys," "smart asses," "intellectual snobs," etc. This is mainly because the right looks diligently for elitism among the left and then milks those instances for all the populist resentment they're worth. I see no reason to supply them with easy fodder.
I am the guy that produces your TV shows, music, and movies.
Oh, good. Now I know who to blame for all the crappy TV, music and movies.
posted by jonmc at 8:29 PM on May 3, 2005
NICK DOUGLAS, please do not tell me that you consider yourself part of this so-called intellectual class. Gimme a break. I've yet to hear anyone approaching that kind of "status" in these parts. I ain't anti-intellectual, anti-educational, and whatever other jargon a lot of you like to sling around as you posture. OK, I'm bitter. How about some real insight? All I hear is crap. Attending a centre for higher learning does not qualify you as intelligent, intellectual, enlightened, or anything. I encountered plenty of self-deluded, unaware, oh but plenty productive and overachieving, numb-nuts when I was in university. And yeah, the Harvard elitism thing is like a microcosm or something for like the elite class in America - overachieving bastards who measure human worth in terms of profits, trophies, and other "achievements". I'm not even American so I'll just sit and wait for the verbal lynching now *cringe*.
posted by yedgar at 9:14 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by yedgar at 9:14 PM on May 3, 2005
I still don't know what I'm supposed to care or not care about or why. But I do know that yedgar's got some issues.
posted by nanojath at 11:03 PM on May 3, 2005
posted by nanojath at 11:03 PM on May 3, 2005
Meh. We're two decent people who are emphasizing different aspects of the same world. I see what you're getting at, and you probably understand where my addled position comes from too. Kiss and make up? Er, platonic kiss.
posted by NickDouglas at 5:38 PM on May 4, 2005
posted by NickDouglas at 5:38 PM on May 4, 2005
NICK DOUGLAS, please do not tell me that you consider yourself part of this so-called intellectual class.
Well, that all defends on how you define intellectual. In the sense that I like to learn about things, think about things, and express my opinions on them, then sure, I'm an intellectual. But I don't think that makes me any better a human being than those who don't.
I think a lot anti-intellectualism is actually anti-sophistry, or a sense that "smart" people are either trying to put one over on them, or think that they're better than them. Again possibly wrong assumptions, but I think that theory has merit.
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on May 4, 2005
Well, that all defends on how you define intellectual. In the sense that I like to learn about things, think about things, and express my opinions on them, then sure, I'm an intellectual. But I don't think that makes me any better a human being than those who don't.
I think a lot anti-intellectualism is actually anti-sophistry, or a sense that "smart" people are either trying to put one over on them, or think that they're better than them. Again possibly wrong assumptions, but I think that theory has merit.
posted by jonmc at 6:22 PM on May 4, 2005
yeah, i got issues. and you don't, i suppose?
OK, Nick, let's get it on.
posted by yedgar at 6:32 PM on May 4, 2005
OK, Nick, let's get it on.
posted by yedgar at 6:32 PM on May 4, 2005
yedgar. we all got issues. I've got more issues than a newsstand on the first of the month. No reason we cant be civilized (yet frank) hashing them out, right?
posted by jonmc at 7:20 PM on May 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:20 PM on May 4, 2005
the world has enough anti-intellectuals.
how about more anti-electuals?
posted by gorgor_balabala at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2005
how about more anti-electuals?
posted by gorgor_balabala at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2005
I think a lot anti-intellectualism is actually anti-sophistry.
Damn, Jonmc, I'm going to start quoting you in papers. This is a great point.
Gorgor: enough anti-textuals and anti-sexuals too. How about more anti-ineffectuals?
posted by NickDouglas at 11:05 AM on May 5, 2005
Damn, Jonmc, I'm going to start quoting you in papers. This is a great point.
Gorgor: enough anti-textuals and anti-sexuals too. How about more anti-ineffectuals?
posted by NickDouglas at 11:05 AM on May 5, 2005
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Too bad the iPod wasn't around back in '93, those tennis balls don't sound to comfortable.
posted by pwedza at 1:26 PM on May 3, 2005