Comments on: This wasn't Car Wars...

This wasn't Car Wars...

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 05:12:28 -0800

   "Whoever controls Highway 19 controls the Highlands,
        and whoever controls the Highlands controls Vietnam."

The French learned this lesson when Groupement Mobile 100, a brigade-sized mobile security column was slaughtered by the Viet Minh in an epic fight (pdf) on this road in 1954. Thirteen years later, with the Americans deploying deeper and deeper into the Central Highlands to flush out the NVA from their remote upland base camps, the 100 miles of road between the coastal port of Qui Nhon and the US cantonments near Pleiku became "Ambush Alley", until the Guntruck was devised to counter the ambush parties head-on. (more inside)

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 05:12:55 -0800

As featured in Army Times, 1970, Army Logistician, 1986, and Army Logistician, 2003. A 69th Armor Regiment tanker tells his story, with annotated maps of the two dangerous passes on QL-19.

By: Malor

Malor — Sat, 14 May 2005 06:44:11 -0800

Pretty interesting stuff, Heywood. Despite being born about the time Vietnam started, I was never taught much about it in school, and to this day it's something of a mystery. I really enjoyed the tanker's story. Thanks for taking the time to assemble all these links!

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 06:46:45 -0800

Yeah, I was born in '67, too young to even remember the fall of Saigon. The "Frequent Wind" post from earlier this month about the evac of Saigon in '75 put me on a major Vietnam surfing kick, and I discovered vets have put up a lot of interesting sites.

By: furtive

furtive — Sat, 14 May 2005 07:52:27 -0800

Hehe, one of the guntrucks was dubbed Blood Sweat and Tires.

By: Floach

Floach — Sat, 14 May 2005 08:32:11 -0800

About Pump Station 8's (last link) defenses: It was ringed with double-A barb wire and concertina wire. Dozens of Claymore anti-personnel mines were positioned around the perimeter. They also employed flame trenches and flame fougasse. The former is a trench 2 feet deep filled with napalm on top of demolition cord. When the cord was exploded it threw burning napalm into the air on an attacking enemy. The latter device was a 55-gallon drum loaded with plastic explosive and filled with naplam. When detonated it threw burning naplam in a specific direction at an attacking enemy. Both of these devices were incredibly lethal, and feared by the NVA. Jesus, war is a horrible thing. A quality post - one of the best I've seen in weeks. Thank you, Mogroot!

By: nola

nola — Sat, 14 May 2005 08:50:21 -0800

thanks for the post, very interesting.

By: euphorb

euphorb — Sat, 14 May 2005 09:17:20 -0800

I hate to pick on the only link I clicked but this is pretty appalling revisionist history at its worst.

By: Grimgrin

Grimgrin — Sat, 14 May 2005 10:41:25 -0800

I thought it was interesting that the gun trucks were built on-site by people who had a need for them and that the design kept evolving in the field. Eventually the gun trucks were reasonably hardened against RPGs and mines, and capable of defending/repairing convoys on the road. The gun truck never seemed to become something that was manufactured Stateside or issued to convoys though. Right up until the end, they remained vehicles hacked together from spare parts. Given the problems that the U.S. has been having with convoys being ambushed you have to wonder why the 'gun truck' concept hasn't been resurrected in a more official way. Especially given the way similar bits of field engineering have been showing up in Iraq

By: TimothyMason

TimothyMason — Sat, 14 May 2005 10:58:58 -0800

That's not revisionist history; it's a man keeping his life right. I liked his hits list.

By: warbaby

warbaby — Sat, 14 May 2005 12:47:48 -0800

guntrucks in Iraq (more links at left side of page)

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Sat, 14 May 2005 14:55:42 -0800

outstanding post heywood mogroot. "whoever controls the Highlands controls Vietnam" proved wrong however. in Vietnam the US controlled the skies, the highlands, the lowlands, the rivers... everything but the tunnels - and the hearts and minds of the people. winning all the battles, but loosing the war.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 15:24:38 -0800

three blind mice: When Thieu started pulling ARVN troops out of Kontum and Pleiku in 1975, what had been a series of tactical reverses became a strategic rout. ARVN lost the province on the DMZ and got beat up bad on the Cambodian border in 1972 but held the Central Highlands (largely thanks to massive B-52 support and the personal direction of John Paul Vann), and was able to recover. Thieu was no Jefferson, but he did finally pass "Land to the Tiller" land reforms that removed a lot of the old colonial status quo burden (land tenancy went from 60% to 10% in 1970). In the end it was Chinese-built tanks rolling down Highway 1 that decided the issue; the 'Hearts and Minds' battle was a wash, if not a marginal victory for the Saigon regime (perhaps thanks to both Tet 68 and the follow-on Phoenix program). Granted a lot that happened over the previous 20 years made rallying the peasantry over to the Saigon regime a lot harder. euphorb: yeah, a lot of vets are seemingly quasi-Birchers. But the old guy's stories of his service have absolutely none of that worldview, he calls the war "goofy" and presents an informative, honest picture of his time there.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 15:47:29 -0800

warbaby: too bad soldier's haven't/can't give their trucks names now. "Satan's Chariot" is probably my favorite, but they're all good. One truck had "Radio Dispatched" painted on it, can't find it now but that's some true wit.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sat, 14 May 2005 15:53:24 -0800

Fixed Last link in above post.

By: freebird

freebird — Sat, 14 May 2005 16:22:47 -0800

heh - nice Car Wars reference. If those guys had Q-Trucks it would've been all over...

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Sat, 14 May 2005 22:04:06 -0800

interesting link warbaby. I was a little surprised there is so little shading/thrown grenade defense. I'm guessing being able to see up is more important.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Sat, 14 May 2005 22:09:36 -0800

euphorb: I would be reluctant to strongly criticize a soldier who says Why Nixon [pardoned Calley] is unknown, but it is beyond belief that he would do such a thing. For the end result is a slap in the face to every Vietnam Veteran who did their job and served with honor by adhering to the Rules of Land Warfare of the 1949 Geneva Convention which set the rules of engagement and expressly forbid the type of behavior exhibited by Calley and the thugs he commanded. They were not soldiers. They were thugs. I would take issue with his syllogism that all war crimes are documented, therefore there were only two incidents of crimes. Clearly the Kerrey affair and other things that continue to come to light years later show that at the very least questionable behavior took place. At the same time the rules of engagement were very flexible in what were called free fire zones -- things that you and I might consider atrocities were conducted according to the laws of war. Clearly, for instance, the execution of Nguyen Van Lem had elements of a lawful battlefield execution of a combatant eschewing Geneva Convention rules of warfare, making him a spy subject to martial law, while it was at the same time an atrocity by humane standards that properly galvanized opposition to the war. These weren't the kind of folks we had any business spending blood and treasure defending. Grimgrin: one reason for the relative scarcity of guntrucks in Iraq is that the Humvee has a design well-suited for the role (the M1025), whereas the Jeep wasn't. In both wars the US has faced the contradictions of doctrine in that rear areas have remained danger zones. In any case, the presence of armored APCs in the French column didn't do them much good; our tactical advantage in the same location was gained through Agent Orange and other defoliants, which eliminated most local cover. Mitheral: The Strykers now in Iraq are being equipped with slat armor, which provides some defense against RPGs.

By: warbaby

warbaby — Sat, 14 May 2005 22:45:13 -0800

Here's a fully enclosed guntruck built in Kuwait. I'm unclear about the reason these improvised armored vehicles are being built now. Is it like Vietnam where the theater commanders were unable or unwilling to commit adequate armor to transport force protection or is there some other reason?

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sun, 15 May 2005 06:05:05 -0800

I would take issue with his syllogism that all war crimes are documented That's a very polite way of saying that it's a loony idea. I've heard veterans say that My Lai was just the tip of the iceberg. Obviously we'll never know the truth, and obviously anyone who was proud of serving will be very reluctant to accept any allegations that aren't fully documented, but I think it's fair to say it's highly likely that people who did commit war crimes in a place like Vietnam would have been able to cover them up relatively easily, and I personally think such things happened a lot more often than is generally acknowledged.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Sun, 15 May 2005 20:42:00 -0800

warbaby: my general non-expert opinion is that tracked vehicles wear out their tracks too fast (and chew up the pavement) to be used as convoy escort, and we only have the 1 Stryker Brigade up north (Strykers are wheeled armored vehicles, like how you would design a guntruck starting from scratch, more or less). Interestingly, in 'nam they mounted the armored shells of APCs on truck beds, providing a simulacrum of a Stryker or Russian armored recon wheeled vehicle. There was great army opposition to the Stryker project since the vehicles would only be useful on paved roads. D'oh.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 16 May 2005 14:24:28 -0800

My understanding is the Stryker has many problems not the least of which is the requirement that it be able to be air shipped. It's also very expensive on a per unit basis. Up armouring a heavy truck is way cheaper. An armoured heavy truck will also blend in with the rest of the convoy and parts will interchange with your actual transports. one reason for the relative scarcity of guntrucks in Iraq is that the Humvee has a design well-suited for the role (the M1025), whereas the Jeep wasn't. That makes sense if they can actually get them in that configuration. Lack of armour kits for base Humvee would seem to point to that being unlikely. Humvees, being mostly 1 1/4T trucks don't really replace the Jeep even though they are often in that role being on the low end of the motor vehicle totem pole now. Humvees are more like a M37 or M880. That slat armour is interesting. I'd thought that the big RPG risk was from snipers firing down. I wasn't really thinking of RPGs though just the garden variety human propelled type of which there seems to be little risk judging by the modifications.

By: Mid

Mid — Mon, 16 May 2005 15:21:20 -0800

On those Vietnam guntrucks, what about the great big exposed tires? Seems like an easy shot at them?