we only want the earth
June 4, 2005 4:25 PM Subscribe
Thanks a lot sarge, now I'm conflicted. I'm an anti-communist who supports a united Ireland. I can't decided wheteher to cheer or jeer. I'll be in the corner with a fifth of Bushmills.
posted by jonmc at 4:36 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 4:36 PM on June 4, 2005
jonmc:
when the legitimate needs of the peeps are stymied, ideology (usually as perverted as the oppressing powers) often steps in. Hence, socialism (not at all a bad thing, in itself) has attached itself to many liberation struggles, in Africa, Asia and South America. If the running-dog capitalistas won't give us our freedom, maybe the marxists will, n'est pas?
posted by dash_slot- at 4:52 PM on June 4, 2005
when the legitimate needs of the peeps are stymied, ideology (usually as perverted as the oppressing powers) often steps in. Hence, socialism (not at all a bad thing, in itself) has attached itself to many liberation struggles, in Africa, Asia and South America. If the running-dog capitalistas won't give us our freedom, maybe the marxists will, n'est pas?
posted by dash_slot- at 4:52 PM on June 4, 2005
If the running-dog capitalistas won't give us our freedom, maybe the marxists will, n'est pas?
The marxists track record (soviet russia, maoist china, etc) would augur otherwise, but Connolly was pre-all that shit, so I'll cut him some historical slack.
posted by jonmc at 4:55 PM on June 4, 2005
The marxists track record (soviet russia, maoist china, etc) would augur otherwise, but Connolly was pre-all that shit, so I'll cut him some historical slack.
posted by jonmc at 4:55 PM on June 4, 2005
Fair enough. Bearing in mind that the Brits were still (hard to believe it now, less than 100 years later) the greatest power the world had seen, and Ireland it's oldest colony, any and every rhetorical, military and personal power was needed to unshackle us from the yoke.
That may be familiar to my US cousins - and I'm as proud of the fine, eternal words and exemplary deeds of Irish freedom fighters - of all persuasions - as I am of Jefferson's, Washington's and Lincoln's (ditto Mandela's, Churchill's, Ghandi's ). TBH, if you're under a yoke, dreams are powerful. The dream of 'working for oneself' is analogous to 'national liberation'.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:13 PM on June 4, 2005
That may be familiar to my US cousins - and I'm as proud of the fine, eternal words and exemplary deeds of Irish freedom fighters - of all persuasions - as I am of Jefferson's, Washington's and Lincoln's (ditto Mandela's, Churchill's, Ghandi's ). TBH, if you're under a yoke, dreams are powerful. The dream of 'working for oneself' is analogous to 'national liberation'.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:13 PM on June 4, 2005
dash: as the descedant of potato famine Irish immigrants, you don't have to tell me about the horrors of what the Brits put my ancestors (and to be fair, a large chunk of their own citizenry) through. I just hesitate when it comes to the Marxist rhetoric because of historical perspective of where it all led.
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on June 4, 2005
Connolly was, first and foremost, a militant workers' leader. The Irish Transport and General Workers' Union (ITGWU), under the leadership of Larkin and Connolly, led the stormy wave of class struggle that shook Ireland to its foundations in the years before 1914. Rarely have these Islands seen such a level of bitter class conflict. This affected not only Dublin but also Belfast, where Connolly succeeded in uniting Catholic and Protestant workers in struggle against the employers.
Had he only succeeded!*
*I know, it's only a partial history, but if only the history of Ireland had been more based on a united class struggle rather than a religious one...
On preview:
Steady on, matey! 'You don't have to tell me...' I know. I am attempting, with my usual limited means, to extend the discussion. That's a fine article, there. I don't care where it's hosted, it's informative. And as much asanyone most, I'm aware of the failures of the marxist project. The failure of the imperialist project is much less discussed these days, it seems.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:28 PM on June 4, 2005
Had he only succeeded!*
*I know, it's only a partial history, but if only the history of Ireland had been more based on a united class struggle rather than a religious one...
On preview:
Steady on, matey! 'You don't have to tell me...' I know. I am attempting, with my usual limited means, to extend the discussion. That's a fine article, there. I don't care where it's hosted, it's informative. And as much as
posted by dash_slot- at 5:28 PM on June 4, 2005
Black 47:
Marchin' down O'Connell Street with the
Starry Plough on high
There goes the Citizen Army with their
fists raised in the sky
Leading them is a mighty man with a mad rage in his eye
"My name is James Connolly - I didn't come here to die
But to fight for the rights of the working man
The small farmer too
To protect the proletariat from the
bosses and their screws
So hold on to your rifles, boys, and
don't give up your dream -
Of a Republic for the workin' class and economic liberty"
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 5:29 PM on June 4, 2005
Marchin' down O'Connell Street with the
Starry Plough on high
There goes the Citizen Army with their
fists raised in the sky
Leading them is a mighty man with a mad rage in his eye
"My name is James Connolly - I didn't come here to die
But to fight for the rights of the working man
The small farmer too
To protect the proletariat from the
bosses and their screws
So hold on to your rifles, boys, and
don't give up your dream -
Of a Republic for the workin' class and economic liberty"
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 5:29 PM on June 4, 2005
because of historical perspective of where it all led.
“Be moderate,” the trimmers cry,
Who dread the tyrants’ thunder.
“You ask too much and people By
From you aghast in wonder.”
posted by 3.2.3 at 5:31 PM on June 4, 2005
“Be moderate,” the trimmers cry,
Who dread the tyrants’ thunder.
“You ask too much and people By
From you aghast in wonder.”
posted by 3.2.3 at 5:31 PM on June 4, 2005
That should have been:
And as much asanyone most, I'm aware of the failures of the marxist project.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:32 PM on June 4, 2005
And as much as
posted by dash_slot- at 5:32 PM on June 4, 2005
Derive the Hamiltonian of... : despite my misgivings about Marxism, that song does warm the Hibernian half of my soul. Not as much as "Funky Cieli," but hey, up the repulic, eh?
posted by jonmc at 5:36 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 5:36 PM on June 4, 2005
and neither moves me as much as the Dropkick Murphy's "Irish Drinking Song" ;)
posted by jonmc at 5:38 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 5:38 PM on June 4, 2005
I recently visited Kilmainham Gaol, and the very spot where Connolly was dragged from his hospital bed and shot. It's in a different part of the killing yard from where the rest of the Easter rebels were shot. Right by a doorway. I guess they didn't want to waste energy dragging Connolly through the gravel.
Connolly's decision to move forward in 1916 holds lessons for the present day in the US occupation of Iraq. For Connolly, substitute any number of local ideologues with militias. Everyone has limits. Given enough time, enough outrage, and enough chutzpah, some or all of them currently holding their goons back will lose patience with a governing regime seen as too accommodating or unresponsive to nationalist or ideological imperatives. The current government of Iraq (and I use that term in the loosest sense of the word) reminds me of Redmond and the Home Rulers. Connolly was a practical man, aligning the ICA with an insurrection armed and primed by the German Empire. A big recruiting tool for his militia, the ICA, was that it provided shoes to its recruits (Dubliners tending to be so poor en masse!) and trained both men and women equally.
It's notable that Connolly's buddy, Big Jim Larkin, would probably have suffered the same fate had he remained in Ireland. But after their defeat during the Lockout, Larkin went to the US, helped set up a Communist Party there, then spent several years in Sing Sing for his troubles. He finally arrived back in post-SF Ireland, when everything had changed, utterly, and he found himself embroiled within the Irish Civil War.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead;
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse -
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse.
posted by meehawl at 5:42 PM on June 4, 2005
Connolly's decision to move forward in 1916 holds lessons for the present day in the US occupation of Iraq. For Connolly, substitute any number of local ideologues with militias. Everyone has limits. Given enough time, enough outrage, and enough chutzpah, some or all of them currently holding their goons back will lose patience with a governing regime seen as too accommodating or unresponsive to nationalist or ideological imperatives. The current government of Iraq (and I use that term in the loosest sense of the word) reminds me of Redmond and the Home Rulers. Connolly was a practical man, aligning the ICA with an insurrection armed and primed by the German Empire. A big recruiting tool for his militia, the ICA, was that it provided shoes to its recruits (Dubliners tending to be so poor en masse!) and trained both men and women equally.
It's notable that Connolly's buddy, Big Jim Larkin, would probably have suffered the same fate had he remained in Ireland. But after their defeat during the Lockout, Larkin went to the US, helped set up a Communist Party there, then spent several years in Sing Sing for his troubles. He finally arrived back in post-SF Ireland, when everything had changed, utterly, and he found himself embroiled within the Irish Civil War.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead;
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse -
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse.
posted by meehawl at 5:42 PM on June 4, 2005
And there's far too much blarney shite about drinking in this thread. Why is it so hard for people to mention Ireland without reflexively invoking alcohol? At that time in Ireland Guinness was known as the "Traitor's Drink". Of course, that may have been accentuated by clever regional marketing by Beamish and Murphy's.
Connolly well knew how much drink was used in Ireland as the opiate of the masses:
Every political party is the party of a class. The Unionists represent the interests of the landlords and the big capitalists generally; the United Irish League is the party of the middle class, the agriculturists, the house jobbers, slum landlords, and drink sellers ... let us take lesson by the municipal election of last year. Let us remember how the drink-sellers of the Wood Quay Ward combined with the slum owner and the house jobber; let us remember how Alderman Davin, Councillor McCall, and all their fellow publicans issued free drinks to whoever would accept, until on the day before election and election day, the scenes of bestiality and drunkenness around their shops were such as brought the blush of shame to every decent man and woman who saw them. Let us remember the threats and the bribery, how Mr. Byrne of Wood Quay told the surrounding tenants, that if “Mr. Connolly was elected their rents would be raised;” let us remember how the spirit of religion was prostituted to the service of the drinkseller to drive the labourer back into his degradation; how the workers were told that socialism and freethinking were the same thing ... You will also understand that there can never be either clean, healthy, or honest politics in the City of Dublin, until the power of the drinksellers is absolutely broken - they are positively the meanest and most degraded section that ever attempted to rule a city.
posted by meehawl at 5:57 PM on June 4, 2005
Connolly well knew how much drink was used in Ireland as the opiate of the masses:
Every political party is the party of a class. The Unionists represent the interests of the landlords and the big capitalists generally; the United Irish League is the party of the middle class, the agriculturists, the house jobbers, slum landlords, and drink sellers ... let us take lesson by the municipal election of last year. Let us remember how the drink-sellers of the Wood Quay Ward combined with the slum owner and the house jobber; let us remember how Alderman Davin, Councillor McCall, and all their fellow publicans issued free drinks to whoever would accept, until on the day before election and election day, the scenes of bestiality and drunkenness around their shops were such as brought the blush of shame to every decent man and woman who saw them. Let us remember the threats and the bribery, how Mr. Byrne of Wood Quay told the surrounding tenants, that if “Mr. Connolly was elected their rents would be raised;” let us remember how the spirit of religion was prostituted to the service of the drinkseller to drive the labourer back into his degradation; how the workers were told that socialism and freethinking were the same thing ... You will also understand that there can never be either clean, healthy, or honest politics in the City of Dublin, until the power of the drinksellers is absolutely broken - they are positively the meanest and most degraded section that ever attempted to rule a city.
posted by meehawl at 5:57 PM on June 4, 2005
meehawl, you really need to have a drink and relax.
(all kidding aside, this is why ideologues and zealots always fail ultimately, they're too puritanical about worldly pleasures)
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on June 4, 2005
(all kidding aside, this is why ideologues and zealots always fail ultimately, they're too puritanical about worldly pleasures)
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on June 4, 2005
Not as much as "Funky Cieli,"
Few songs have more of a kick than the wonderful Funky Ceili, but I was amazed, the time I saw Black 47 live in a little club in upstate New York, of the power the James Connolly song aroused in an audience that until that point had just been having a good time on a holiday weekend.
Larry Kirwan definitely was not just rock-and-rolling around when he shouted out the lyrics, and for a few thrilling minutes it seemed that the dream might really be possible:
"Of a Republic for the workin' class and economic liberty."
posted by LeLiLo at 6:05 PM on June 4, 2005
Few songs have more of a kick than the wonderful Funky Ceili, but I was amazed, the time I saw Black 47 live in a little club in upstate New York, of the power the James Connolly song aroused in an audience that until that point had just been having a good time on a holiday weekend.
Larry Kirwan definitely was not just rock-and-rolling around when he shouted out the lyrics, and for a few thrilling minutes it seemed that the dream might really be possible:
"Of a Republic for the workin' class and economic liberty."
posted by LeLiLo at 6:05 PM on June 4, 2005
Larry Kirwan definitely was not just rock-and-rolling around when he shouted out the lyrics, and for a few thrilling minutes it seemed that the dream might really be possible:
And when Grace Slick sings "Up Against The Wall, Motherfucker" in "We Can Be Together," it makes the Weathermen and the SLA seem lik liberators rather than addle-minded doofuses with guns. It's important to differentiate the passion that music stirs up (and lelilo, you know how important that passion is to me) from the ideologies the musicians putatively embrace. If I lived out every lyric that every made me feel gloriouly alive, I'd have died after snorting coke off a hookers tits. See what I'm saying?
posted by jonmc at 6:12 PM on June 4, 2005
And when Grace Slick sings "Up Against The Wall, Motherfucker" in "We Can Be Together," it makes the Weathermen and the SLA seem lik liberators rather than addle-minded doofuses with guns. It's important to differentiate the passion that music stirs up (and lelilo, you know how important that passion is to me) from the ideologies the musicians putatively embrace. If I lived out every lyric that every made me feel gloriouly alive, I'd have died after snorting coke off a hookers tits. See what I'm saying?
posted by jonmc at 6:12 PM on June 4, 2005
It's also why political music dosen't age as well as music about more universal subjects, and that's why "Funky Cieli," is far bigger artistic success than "James Connolly."
posted by jonmc at 6:14 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 6:14 PM on June 4, 2005
and finally: I just fired up "Friday On My Mind" on winamp. Whether I live under a capitalist or marxist system, do you think that I'll be any less glad when the workweek ends?
posted by jonmc at 6:17 PM on June 4, 2005
posted by jonmc at 6:17 PM on June 4, 2005
I'm an anti-communist who supports a united Ireland.
I gather from your comments you're not Irish. How, then, would you support a "United Ireland"? And what form would that take? And how do you propose to best deal with the approximately 20% of the population that would demand self-rule or continued Union with the UK? Did you ever donate money to a charity aligned with the cause of the "United Ireland"? Are you one of those USians that through donations and political support both encouraged and financed local warlords using terror and intimidation as strategies?
this is why ideologues and zealots always fail ultimately, they're too puritanical about worldly pleasures
There's a difference between a drug that can be used for pleasure, or deployed as a tool. Connolly didn't "fail" because of his campaign against intoxication, he failed because the British Navy sent the Helga gunship right up the Liffey and bombarded most of central Dublin, destroying it completely. Also, Connolly thought in conventional terms, as did Plunkett , and couldn't conceive of anything except conventional positional warfare within strict rules of engagement.
Collins, however, almost dying within the GPO during the rebellion, realised that only a campaign of terror, intimidation, extortion, and assassination could possibly succeed against overwhelming odds. He was a pioneer of asymmetrical warfare and urban terrorism.
To explore an analogy further, what if the British response to PIRA terrorism in the 1970s to 1980s had been not to do good policework and cell penetration but, instead, to casually and repeatedly bomb Derry and Belfast from the air based on hunches and semi-random spurious tips from individuals with axes to grind. Of course they could state that their aim was to extra-judicially kill the PIRA Chief of Staff but, you know, cities are a big target and cautious people are very small and probably not actually where you expect them to be. So they would probably have used 500 lb bombs, just as the Pentagon does today, that annihilate several hundred square metres in one blast. Of course, some civlians would probably die as well, but they were in areas full of known "sympathisers" with terrorism so they were probably guilty of something.
Of course the British did not actually do this and neither Derry nor Belfast were subjected to weeks and months of random bombing. And neither, for that matter, were New York, Boston, or Washington, where pseudo-religious Irish-American "charities" and terrorist sympathisers channelled funding and support to the Irish terrorists.
No, the reason why the people in Derry and Belfast were spared collective punishment, and the reason why the people in Iraq must constantly live in fear of being instantly vapourised or crushed by masonry comes down to race. The Irish, whatever their terrorist proclivities, were more or less white, and thus due some consideration, respect, and negotiation. The people in Iraq are, well, you know, duskier of skin and a little swarthy and, well, you know, fundamentally kind of Arab. So they are all probably a little guilty of something. So obviously, that's why it's okay to randomly bomb them from the air.
Should we have bombed Washington, where the policies were formed? Or should we have concentrated on places where Irishmen are known to lurk, like New York, Boston and Philadelphia? We could have bombed any police station and fire station in most major urban centres, secure in the knowledge that we would be taking out significant numbers of IRA sympathisers. On St Patrick's Day, we could have bombed Fifth Avenue and scored a bull's-eye.
posted by meehawl at 6:24 PM on June 4, 2005
I gather from your comments you're not Irish. How, then, would you support a "United Ireland"? And what form would that take? And how do you propose to best deal with the approximately 20% of the population that would demand self-rule or continued Union with the UK? Did you ever donate money to a charity aligned with the cause of the "United Ireland"? Are you one of those USians that through donations and political support both encouraged and financed local warlords using terror and intimidation as strategies?
this is why ideologues and zealots always fail ultimately, they're too puritanical about worldly pleasures
There's a difference between a drug that can be used for pleasure, or deployed as a tool. Connolly didn't "fail" because of his campaign against intoxication, he failed because the British Navy sent the Helga gunship right up the Liffey and bombarded most of central Dublin, destroying it completely. Also, Connolly thought in conventional terms, as did Plunkett , and couldn't conceive of anything except conventional positional warfare within strict rules of engagement.
Collins, however, almost dying within the GPO during the rebellion, realised that only a campaign of terror, intimidation, extortion, and assassination could possibly succeed against overwhelming odds. He was a pioneer of asymmetrical warfare and urban terrorism.
To explore an analogy further, what if the British response to PIRA terrorism in the 1970s to 1980s had been not to do good policework and cell penetration but, instead, to casually and repeatedly bomb Derry and Belfast from the air based on hunches and semi-random spurious tips from individuals with axes to grind. Of course they could state that their aim was to extra-judicially kill the PIRA Chief of Staff but, you know, cities are a big target and cautious people are very small and probably not actually where you expect them to be. So they would probably have used 500 lb bombs, just as the Pentagon does today, that annihilate several hundred square metres in one blast. Of course, some civlians would probably die as well, but they were in areas full of known "sympathisers" with terrorism so they were probably guilty of something.
Of course the British did not actually do this and neither Derry nor Belfast were subjected to weeks and months of random bombing. And neither, for that matter, were New York, Boston, or Washington, where pseudo-religious Irish-American "charities" and terrorist sympathisers channelled funding and support to the Irish terrorists.
No, the reason why the people in Derry and Belfast were spared collective punishment, and the reason why the people in Iraq must constantly live in fear of being instantly vapourised or crushed by masonry comes down to race. The Irish, whatever their terrorist proclivities, were more or less white, and thus due some consideration, respect, and negotiation. The people in Iraq are, well, you know, duskier of skin and a little swarthy and, well, you know, fundamentally kind of Arab. So they are all probably a little guilty of something. So obviously, that's why it's okay to randomly bomb them from the air.
Should we have bombed Washington, where the policies were formed? Or should we have concentrated on places where Irishmen are known to lurk, like New York, Boston and Philadelphia? We could have bombed any police station and fire station in most major urban centres, secure in the knowledge that we would be taking out significant numbers of IRA sympathisers. On St Patrick's Day, we could have bombed Fifth Avenue and scored a bull's-eye.
posted by meehawl at 6:24 PM on June 4, 2005
Why is it so hard for people to mention Ireland without reflexively invoking alcohol?
Because there's no paddies on the thread. Good post above, BTW.
posted by dublinemma at 6:31 PM on June 4, 2005
Because there's no paddies on the thread. Good post above, BTW.
posted by dublinemma at 6:31 PM on June 4, 2005
I gather from your comments you're not Irish.
1/2 Irish-American actually. My surname shoulda told you that.
Connolly didn't "fail" because of his campaign against intoxication, he failed because the British Navy sent the Helga gunship right up the Liffey and bombarded most of central Dublin, destroying it completely.
Agreed. And the Irish were in the right standing up to Britain, and they still are, things like the Harrod's bombing and other assorted IRA misdeeds notwithstanding. My point was that if you tell people that drinking (or pot or whatever) is bad or forbidden, don't be surprised if they say fuck off.
Did you ever donate money to a charity aligned with the cause of the "United Ireland"?
In my dad's old (very Irish) neighborhood , the IRA used to collect door-to-door. He said he'd donate if the solicitior was pretty girl. I've never been solicited for funds myself, but I still think the British should give the six counties back. But I don't think it;s worth the bloodshed that's happened over it.
posted by jonmc at 6:32 PM on June 4, 2005
1/2 Irish-American actually. My surname shoulda told you that.
Connolly didn't "fail" because of his campaign against intoxication, he failed because the British Navy sent the Helga gunship right up the Liffey and bombarded most of central Dublin, destroying it completely.
Agreed. And the Irish were in the right standing up to Britain, and they still are, things like the Harrod's bombing and other assorted IRA misdeeds notwithstanding. My point was that if you tell people that drinking (or pot or whatever) is bad or forbidden, don't be surprised if they say fuck off.
Did you ever donate money to a charity aligned with the cause of the "United Ireland"?
In my dad's old (very Irish) neighborhood , the IRA used to collect door-to-door. He said he'd donate if the solicitior was pretty girl. I've never been solicited for funds myself, but I still think the British should give the six counties back. But I don't think it;s worth the bloodshed that's happened over it.
posted by jonmc at 6:32 PM on June 4, 2005
The people in Iraq are, well, you know, duskier of skin and a little swarthy and, well, you know, fundamentally kind of Arab.
Also, the other half of my heritage is from the swarthy Italian people, and my sister is married to an Arab who just gave birth to my niece, and I am against the war in Iraq, so don't use me as your poster boy, thank you very much.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 PM on June 4, 2005
Also, the other half of my heritage is from the swarthy Italian people, and my sister is married to an Arab who just gave birth to my niece, and I am against the war in Iraq, so don't use me as your poster boy, thank you very much.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 PM on June 4, 2005
1/2 Irish-American actually. My surname shoulda told you that.
I'm aware that many USians consider themselves "Irish". I'm also aware that many hydrogenated spreads represent themselves as "butter".
The willingess of people self-identified as "Irish-Americans" to attempt to exert political influence within Ireland has always impressed me. It's as if the descendents of the Liberian colonists from the US were funding black american separatist movements, and generally holding forth on their idea of how the US should conduct its internal affairs and foreign relations.
I still think the British should give the six counties back.
Give it back to whom, exactly? Do you mean the Northern Ireland Government, suspended in the 1972? Have you looked at the most recent electoral map of Northern Ireland? Or do you propose to transfer part of the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland against the wishes of the majority of the population there?
posted by meehawl at 6:51 PM on June 4, 2005
I'm aware that many USians consider themselves "Irish". I'm also aware that many hydrogenated spreads represent themselves as "butter".
The willingess of people self-identified as "Irish-Americans" to attempt to exert political influence within Ireland has always impressed me. It's as if the descendents of the Liberian colonists from the US were funding black american separatist movements, and generally holding forth on their idea of how the US should conduct its internal affairs and foreign relations.
I still think the British should give the six counties back.
Give it back to whom, exactly? Do you mean the Northern Ireland Government, suspended in the 1972? Have you looked at the most recent electoral map of Northern Ireland? Or do you propose to transfer part of the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland against the wishes of the majority of the population there?
posted by meehawl at 6:51 PM on June 4, 2005
my sister is married to an Arab who just gave birth to my niece
Congratulations are in order then!
posted by meehawl at 6:55 PM on June 4, 2005
Congratulations are in order then!
posted by meehawl at 6:55 PM on June 4, 2005
I'm aware that many USians consider themselves "Irish".
My father's family came from Ireland. I come from a long line of Dunns, Cavanaughs, and McNally's raised in Hell's Kitchen, Inwood and Woodside. Do have to bleed green before I'm entitled to have an opinion on the subject? Yeah, Irealize that I don't live in Ireland, but i don't live in Iraq either and I'm perfectly comfortable having an opinion on the war.
Or do you propose to transfer part of the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland against the wishes of the majority of the population there?
But the very fact that Northern Ireland exists is because of the colonial legacy of Britain. That's a factor to be considered, too.
Thanks for the congrats, although my brother-in-law is a Lebanese Christian, but the sentiment is appreciated. And don't take any of this personal. Anytime you're in the west village or astoria, I'll buy you a beer.
posted by jonmc at 7:00 PM on June 4, 2005
My father's family came from Ireland. I come from a long line of Dunns, Cavanaughs, and McNally's raised in Hell's Kitchen, Inwood and Woodside. Do have to bleed green before I'm entitled to have an opinion on the subject? Yeah, Irealize that I don't live in Ireland, but i don't live in Iraq either and I'm perfectly comfortable having an opinion on the war.
Or do you propose to transfer part of the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland against the wishes of the majority of the population there?
But the very fact that Northern Ireland exists is because of the colonial legacy of Britain. That's a factor to be considered, too.
Thanks for the congrats, although my brother-in-law is a Lebanese Christian, but the sentiment is appreciated. And don't take any of this personal. Anytime you're in the west village or astoria, I'll buy you a beer.
posted by jonmc at 7:00 PM on June 4, 2005
Do have to bleed green before I'm entitled to have an opinion on the subject?
That would make you vulcan!
All kidding aside, I think the nature of Irishness within Ireland has changed in the generations since the bulk of the emigrants left the country. And the nature of the Irishness handed down to their descendents was itself formulated during a difficult time and has undergone some varied mutation and development during that time.
The nature of Irish emigration itself has changed over the years. Before the Famine, before the Union began stagnating southern Ireland, during the 18th and early 19th centuries most of the Irish immigrants to the US were Presbyterian Scots Irish from the north, and they tended to head for the southern states and retained a great deal of contempt for the Catholics who had, as they saw it, driven them from their home country. Then in the late 19th century it switched around and became primarily a Catholic, southern phenomenon, with most of the Irish immigrants heading for the northern US and Canada. So it goes.
i don't live in Iraq either and I'm perfectly comfortable having an opinion on the war.
You're a citizen of one of the major actors in the war! I think that gives you a strong say in the matter!
the very fact that Northern Ireland exists is because of the colonial legacy of Britain.
Well now, you can indeed say that about a great many places in the world, including of course Iraq. The fact that Scotland exists at all is a colonial legacy of Irish invasion. I'm sure that the Scottish immigrants to the Ulster Plantations during the 17th century could have argued that they were just taking back their ancestral lands.
posted by meehawl at 7:16 PM on June 4, 2005
That would make you vulcan!
All kidding aside, I think the nature of Irishness within Ireland has changed in the generations since the bulk of the emigrants left the country. And the nature of the Irishness handed down to their descendents was itself formulated during a difficult time and has undergone some varied mutation and development during that time.
The nature of Irish emigration itself has changed over the years. Before the Famine, before the Union began stagnating southern Ireland, during the 18th and early 19th centuries most of the Irish immigrants to the US were Presbyterian Scots Irish from the north, and they tended to head for the southern states and retained a great deal of contempt for the Catholics who had, as they saw it, driven them from their home country. Then in the late 19th century it switched around and became primarily a Catholic, southern phenomenon, with most of the Irish immigrants heading for the northern US and Canada. So it goes.
i don't live in Iraq either and I'm perfectly comfortable having an opinion on the war.
You're a citizen of one of the major actors in the war! I think that gives you a strong say in the matter!
the very fact that Northern Ireland exists is because of the colonial legacy of Britain.
Well now, you can indeed say that about a great many places in the world, including of course Iraq. The fact that Scotland exists at all is a colonial legacy of Irish invasion. I'm sure that the Scottish immigrants to the Ulster Plantations during the 17th century could have argued that they were just taking back their ancestral lands.
posted by meehawl at 7:16 PM on June 4, 2005
That would make you vulcan!
Live long and prosper. Or live briefly and flounder. Whatever floats your boat.
Then in the late 19th century it switched around and became primarily a Catholic, southern phenomenon, with most of the Irish immigrants heading for the northern US and Canada.
And, in the northeastern United States, the overwhelming majority of those who describe themselves as Irish-American are desendants (myself included) of that post-famine Catholic migration, which explains our (admittedly somewhat sentimental, boozy, Blarney Stone Pub) attachment to the conflict in Ireland. And to be fair, that's also what allows IRA thugs to solicit funds and support here. So, I'm not entirely deaf to what you're saying.
posted by jonmc at 7:28 PM on June 4, 2005
Live long and prosper. Or live briefly and flounder. Whatever floats your boat.
Then in the late 19th century it switched around and became primarily a Catholic, southern phenomenon, with most of the Irish immigrants heading for the northern US and Canada.
And, in the northeastern United States, the overwhelming majority of those who describe themselves as Irish-American are desendants (myself included) of that post-famine Catholic migration, which explains our (admittedly somewhat sentimental, boozy, Blarney Stone Pub) attachment to the conflict in Ireland. And to be fair, that's also what allows IRA thugs to solicit funds and support here. So, I'm not entirely deaf to what you're saying.
posted by jonmc at 7:28 PM on June 4, 2005
The protestants who moved to Northern Ireland did so just about the time that Europeans moved to the US. Saying that they should give the "colony" back would be like saying the white people should give the U.S. back to the Native Americans.
It's a big mess all around. The British were at many times terrible rulers in Ireland; the extremists on both sides (there are Protestant paramilitaries, just as much as fringe IRA) continue to keep things nasty in Northern Ireland, and occassionally take their violence across the Irish Sea. The Marks and Spencers where my fiance grew up in Manchester was blown up just after he left.
The Northern Irish have a right to self-determination. If they vote to stay with Britain, I would support them; if they vote to join the Republic, power to them. They should have a plebiscite already - Gibralter too. Then everyone else gets out of it, and a pox falls on all those perpetuating the messed up violence on both sides.
Sorry, this isn't really on topic. I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
posted by jb at 8:31 PM on June 4, 2005
It's a big mess all around. The British were at many times terrible rulers in Ireland; the extremists on both sides (there are Protestant paramilitaries, just as much as fringe IRA) continue to keep things nasty in Northern Ireland, and occassionally take their violence across the Irish Sea. The Marks and Spencers where my fiance grew up in Manchester was blown up just after he left.
The Northern Irish have a right to self-determination. If they vote to stay with Britain, I would support them; if they vote to join the Republic, power to them. They should have a plebiscite already - Gibralter too. Then everyone else gets out of it, and a pox falls on all those perpetuating the messed up violence on both sides.
Sorry, this isn't really on topic. I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
posted by jb at 8:31 PM on June 4, 2005
The protestants who moved to Northern Ireland did so just about the time that Europeans moved to the US. Saying that they should give the "colony" back would be like saying the white people should give the U.S. back to the Native Americans.
It's a big mess all around. The British were at many times terrible rulers in Ireland; the extremists on both sides (there are Protestant paramilitaries, just as much as fringe IRA) continue to keep things nasty in Northern Ireland, and occassionally take their violence across the Irish Sea. The Marks and Spencers where my fiance grew up in Manchester was blown up just after he left.
The Northern Irish have a right to self-determination. If they vote to stay with Britain, I would support them; if they vote to join the Republic, power to them. They should have a plebiscite already - Gibralter too. Then everyone else gets out of it, and a pox falls on all those perpetuating the messed up violence on both sides.
Sorry, this isn't really on topic. I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
posted by jb at 8:31 PM on June 4, 2005
It's a big mess all around. The British were at many times terrible rulers in Ireland; the extremists on both sides (there are Protestant paramilitaries, just as much as fringe IRA) continue to keep things nasty in Northern Ireland, and occassionally take their violence across the Irish Sea. The Marks and Spencers where my fiance grew up in Manchester was blown up just after he left.
The Northern Irish have a right to self-determination. If they vote to stay with Britain, I would support them; if they vote to join the Republic, power to them. They should have a plebiscite already - Gibralter too. Then everyone else gets out of it, and a pox falls on all those perpetuating the messed up violence on both sides.
Sorry, this isn't really on topic. I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
posted by jb at 8:31 PM on June 4, 2005
The Northern Irish have a right to self-determination. If they vote to stay with Britain, I would support them; if they vote to join the Republic, power to them.
Well you see, the problem is that exactly what constitutes "the Northern Irish" is open to debate. For pretty much all of recorded history, a territory known as "Ulster" constituted the northern part of Ireland. The problem with self-determination in "northern Ireland" is that what constitutes a majority varies depending on whether or not you include all nine of the historical counties of Ulster as "northern Ireland", or just the six specified in the UK's unilateral 1920 Government of Ireland Act. Irish nationalists reject this partition of Ulster as gerrymandering, while Irish Loyalists promote it as essential and based on ancient tribal demarcations. That is why referring to the state of "Northern Ireland" as "the Six Counties" is a politically active statement with the general intention of delegitimising Northern Ireland as a political entity.
The three counties of Ulster not included in the state of Northern Ireland created in 1920 featured large Irish Nationalist majorities, and it is generally accepted that had they been included in Northern Ireland, Loyalist control of the political apparatus could not have been maintained. At the time, they even considered establishing Northern Ireland as a three-county political entity, with a massively disproproportionate Scots Irish Presbyterian majority, but this entity would probably have been too small to have functioned well economically and so was shelved.
The protracted mess that was the birth of Ireland led to a unique situation in 1921 and 1922 when Ireland, a tiny piece of land, had three simultaneous governments: Northern Ireland (claiming control of six counties in the North of Ireland), Southern Ireland (with its own dysfunctional House of Commons and claiming jurisdiction over 26 counties of Ireland), and the Republic of Ireland (claiming ownership of all 32 counties of Ireland).
I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
It's not hard to find out what you want to know about Connolly.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=james.connolly+biography
Connolly got around. He campaigned for socialism in both Ireland and Scotland. His parents were from Monaghan. He grew up in the Irish ghetto in Edinburgh. He married an Irish protestant from Wicklow. He spent seven years in the US, mainly in New York, during which time he helped found the Wobblies.
posted by meehawl at 9:47 PM on June 4, 2005
Well you see, the problem is that exactly what constitutes "the Northern Irish" is open to debate. For pretty much all of recorded history, a territory known as "Ulster" constituted the northern part of Ireland. The problem with self-determination in "northern Ireland" is that what constitutes a majority varies depending on whether or not you include all nine of the historical counties of Ulster as "northern Ireland", or just the six specified in the UK's unilateral 1920 Government of Ireland Act. Irish nationalists reject this partition of Ulster as gerrymandering, while Irish Loyalists promote it as essential and based on ancient tribal demarcations. That is why referring to the state of "Northern Ireland" as "the Six Counties" is a politically active statement with the general intention of delegitimising Northern Ireland as a political entity.
The three counties of Ulster not included in the state of Northern Ireland created in 1920 featured large Irish Nationalist majorities, and it is generally accepted that had they been included in Northern Ireland, Loyalist control of the political apparatus could not have been maintained. At the time, they even considered establishing Northern Ireland as a three-county political entity, with a massively disproproportionate Scots Irish Presbyterian majority, but this entity would probably have been too small to have functioned well economically and so was shelved.
The protracted mess that was the birth of Ireland led to a unique situation in 1921 and 1922 when Ireland, a tiny piece of land, had three simultaneous governments: Northern Ireland (claiming control of six counties in the North of Ireland), Southern Ireland (with its own dysfunctional House of Commons and claiming jurisdiction over 26 counties of Ireland), and the Republic of Ireland (claiming ownership of all 32 counties of Ireland).
I don't know anything about Connely at all. I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
It's not hard to find out what you want to know about Connolly.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=james.connolly+biography
Connolly got around. He campaigned for socialism in both Ireland and Scotland. His parents were from Monaghan. He grew up in the Irish ghetto in Edinburgh. He married an Irish protestant from Wicklow. He spent seven years in the US, mainly in New York, during which time he helped found the Wobblies.
posted by meehawl at 9:47 PM on June 4, 2005
Yes, I probably should have googled. But I'm lazy and I thought it might be a good chance to turn the conversation back to 1922.
I realise it isn't as simple as Gibralter - other than the gerrymandering, I had also heard the population of Northern Ireland is changing - there will be more Catholics in the future, who may support joining the Republic. But at the same time, I understand the desire to remain part of Britain - more than just advantages, there are strong feelings. I know I would be upset if my own government (Canada) abolished the monarchy.
I wonder though - would a vote help at all? After the failure of the referendum in Quebec, separatism seems to have died down, and relations are better. But maybe memories are too deep in Ireland.
posted by jb at 11:10 PM on June 4, 2005
I realise it isn't as simple as Gibralter - other than the gerrymandering, I had also heard the population of Northern Ireland is changing - there will be more Catholics in the future, who may support joining the Republic. But at the same time, I understand the desire to remain part of Britain - more than just advantages, there are strong feelings. I know I would be upset if my own government (Canada) abolished the monarchy.
I wonder though - would a vote help at all? After the failure of the referendum in Quebec, separatism seems to have died down, and relations are better. But maybe memories are too deep in Ireland.
posted by jb at 11:10 PM on June 4, 2005
The lesson of Quebec may well be that separatists want referendums every few years until they get the 'right' result.
I think that, in a Europe that is becoming more borderless, and where Ireland has become much more prosperous and outward-facing in the last ten to twenty years, the exact legal status of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland is slightly easier to fudge.
When Scotland got its own Parliament (with control over domestic matters) a few years ago, a Scottish Labour politician said '[getting the Parliament] will kill the Scottish Nationalist Party stone dead'. And so it has proved, pretty much.
In similar vein, I think that a Northern Ireland with virtual independence on domestic policy, with no borders with the republic, and with foreign policy conducted by the UK and Ireland as part of an EU framework, is something that could satisfy the moderates on both sides. If the UK were to join the euro, we'd even have the same currency.
posted by athenian at 12:07 AM on June 5, 2005
I think that, in a Europe that is becoming more borderless, and where Ireland has become much more prosperous and outward-facing in the last ten to twenty years, the exact legal status of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland is slightly easier to fudge.
When Scotland got its own Parliament (with control over domestic matters) a few years ago, a Scottish Labour politician said '[getting the Parliament] will kill the Scottish Nationalist Party stone dead'. And so it has proved, pretty much.
In similar vein, I think that a Northern Ireland with virtual independence on domestic policy, with no borders with the republic, and with foreign policy conducted by the UK and Ireland as part of an EU framework, is something that could satisfy the moderates on both sides. If the UK were to join the euro, we'd even have the same currency.
posted by athenian at 12:07 AM on June 5, 2005
I'm curious though - why did this Scotsman want to start a socialist republic in Ireland, as opposed to Scotland?
Connolly saw in Irish Republicanism a revolutionary spirit that he thought could be merged with working-class discontent to form a Marxist revolution. He had spent a lot of time working with the American socialist movement, at first in De Leon's Socialist Labor Party and later in the Socialist Party of America, as well as the IWW and had developed an industrial unionist perspective based on that. He was a dedicated class warrior, and deserves to have that part of his legacy remembered as well as his crucial role in the formation of the Irish Republic.
Black 47's anthem is a worthy tribute.
posted by graymouser at 4:26 AM on June 5, 2005
Connolly saw in Irish Republicanism a revolutionary spirit that he thought could be merged with working-class discontent to form a Marxist revolution. He had spent a lot of time working with the American socialist movement, at first in De Leon's Socialist Labor Party and later in the Socialist Party of America, as well as the IWW and had developed an industrial unionist perspective based on that. He was a dedicated class warrior, and deserves to have that part of his legacy remembered as well as his crucial role in the formation of the Irish Republic.
Black 47's anthem is a worthy tribute.
posted by graymouser at 4:26 AM on June 5, 2005
something that could satisfy the moderates on both sides
Many people would think that was true. Again I recommend a glance at the most recent electoral map of Northern Ireland. Moderation is in short supply north of the border these days.
posted by meehawl at 6:26 AM on June 5, 2005
Many people would think that was true. Again I recommend a glance at the most recent electoral map of Northern Ireland. Moderation is in short supply north of the border these days.
posted by meehawl at 6:26 AM on June 5, 2005
True enough, but it's hard to interpret any results of FPTP elections, particularly when minority representation in the UK Parliament is the only thing that's at stake.
Interesting that turnout was higher (by about 4%) than on the UK mainland.
posted by athenian at 9:50 AM on June 5, 2005
Interesting that turnout was higher (by about 4%) than on the UK mainland.
posted by athenian at 9:50 AM on June 5, 2005
it's hard to interpret any results of FPTP elections
Northern Ireland uses the STV proportional-workalike system for local elections (and the Assembly and EU elections). The most recent STV results indicate percentages quite close to the FFTP Westminster results:
DUP 208,278 30% 182 cllrs
SF 163,205 24% 126 cllrs
UUP 126,317 18% 115 cllrs
SDLP 121,991 17% 101 cllrs
Alliance 35,149 5% 30 cllrs
Greens 5,703 1% 3 cllrs
The percentages are around the same but STV has managed to deliver the UUP and the SDLP an extra share of local seats. By my reckoning, extremists hold around 60% of the local seats, with the rest split between various blends of anarcho-syndicalists and the UUP/SDLP ancien regime axis. Of course, it's a minor wonder of the age that in the post-Good Friday era, the UUP can be viewed as a "moderate" party.
With reference to Connolly, it's notable that voting in Northern Ireland, as in the Republic, is still frozen into tribal affiliations and does not easily fall within any systematic, persistent class boundaries. Any parties of Labour in either country never really do very well. Over a century ago Connolly railed against a primitive tribalism that has been manipulated since 1798 to set one working class faction against another. Plus ça change indeed.
posted by meehawl at 10:27 AM on June 5, 2005
Northern Ireland uses the STV proportional-workalike system for local elections (and the Assembly and EU elections). The most recent STV results indicate percentages quite close to the FFTP Westminster results:
DUP 208,278 30% 182 cllrs
SF 163,205 24% 126 cllrs
UUP 126,317 18% 115 cllrs
SDLP 121,991 17% 101 cllrs
Alliance 35,149 5% 30 cllrs
Greens 5,703 1% 3 cllrs
The percentages are around the same but STV has managed to deliver the UUP and the SDLP an extra share of local seats. By my reckoning, extremists hold around 60% of the local seats, with the rest split between various blends of anarcho-syndicalists and the UUP/SDLP ancien regime axis. Of course, it's a minor wonder of the age that in the post-Good Friday era, the UUP can be viewed as a "moderate" party.
With reference to Connolly, it's notable that voting in Northern Ireland, as in the Republic, is still frozen into tribal affiliations and does not easily fall within any systematic, persistent class boundaries. Any parties of Labour in either country never really do very well. Over a century ago Connolly railed against a primitive tribalism that has been manipulated since 1798 to set one working class faction against another. Plus ça change indeed.
posted by meehawl at 10:27 AM on June 5, 2005
anyone who enjoys the Dropkick Murphy's can't be all bad :) the flogging mollys were here in nashville the other week we had a damn fine time at that show i can tell you.
posted by nola at 5:00 AM on June 6, 2005
posted by nola at 5:00 AM on June 6, 2005
« Older Scotsman Newspaper Digital Archive 1817-1950 | Well, I think it's cool anyway. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by sgt.serenity at 4:30 PM on June 4, 2005