Et tu, Britain ?

June 7, 2005 11:46 AM

How "USA" became a dirty word "Small c" conservative Ferdinand Mount, for the UK Telegraph, describes the rise of anti-american sentiment among British soccer fans: "And what 30,000 Arsenal supporters were chanting for two hours....was 'USA! USA!' This was apparently the most offensive chant they could think of....How deeply peculiar it is that the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave should now be the rudest word in the vast lexicon of football insults."
posted by troutfishing (57 comments total)

A couple of days earlier I had been having lunch at a club with members of an older generation, mild gents no more in their first youth than me and of a decidedly small-c conservative disposition.

And the first thing they all wanted to say was: "Didn't George stick it to the Yanks?' I wonder if our political elites have any idea of just how popular Mr Galloway's assault on that Senate committee has made him in the most unexpected quarters.

posted by matteo at 11:55 AM on June 7, 2005

troutfishing I call bullshit on that article.

The reason 30,000 Arsenal Fans were chanting USA USA was because Paul Glazer, owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, had just bought a controlling interest in Manchester United Arsenal's rival in the match for the FA cup.

Like any good American businessman, Glazer bought them on credit and the fear among Man U supporters is that he will attach the debt to the franchise - killing its future. Man U fans were extremely upset with the purchase and the chant of USA USA was simply a way for Arsenal fans to push their buttons.

Oh, btw, Arsenal won on penalty kicks.
posted by three blind mice at 11:55 AM on June 7, 2005

Quiet, three blind mice!

That sort of reality doesn't *sell* as well here on Metafilter. We'd rather use this thread as another pretextual basis for airing our grievances regarding Bush et. al. So quit derailing with facts, three blind mice.
posted by dios at 12:02 PM on June 7, 2005

You realize that this is the same Ferdinand Mount that was the first head of Margaret Thatcher's Downing Street Policy Unit?

How can anyone describe him as a conservative with a small 'c' is beyond me. As one of the chief architects of the Thatcherite ideological revolution, Mount's 'C' is as big as they get.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:08 PM on June 7, 2005

What tbm said.
posted by jenleigh at 12:09 PM on June 7, 2005

It is even more peculiar when you reflect that Roman Abramovich, a Russian tycoon of far more mysterious origins than Mr Glazer's, was able to take over Chelsea football club without a whimper of protest

Mount's being deliberately evasive and obtuse here. When Abramovich bought Chelsea it was a very different situation. First of all Abramovich had actual money to spend on the team. Glazer does not. He's in debt to the tune of half a billion pounds because of all the borrowing he had to do to get the shares.

What's more, Abramovich comes from a country where football means football (you know, the game where people move the ball with their feet). Glazer... not quite. Abramovich came with money to earn glory. Glazer bought glory to earn money (and he's quite up front about it too, to his credit). The situations are about as different as you can imagine.

In the interest of disclosure, I should add that I'm a Chelsea fan (have been for 15 years).
posted by clevershark at 12:13 PM on June 7, 2005

And it's not like there was no whimpering of protest when Abramovitch bought Chelsea - there was quite a bit of concern, both in football generally and among Chelsea's fans. Nowhere near the levels in the Glazer situation, but that's for the reasons clevershark noted.

Anyway, they were quickly dubbed Chelski, which you could see as being just as offensive or inoffensive as the "USA" chants were supposed to be. An attempt to disparage a team by suggesting that they're not "local" any more... it's about as mild as football chants get. I think what's most interesting about this is that, despite the decades of tradition that football clubs have, with long established rivalries and chants that are passed down across the generations, football fans do like nothing better than a good topical chant. They're often impressively quick off the mark...
posted by flashboy at 12:23 PM on June 7, 2005

Wow troutfishing, what an embarrassing post. Where's amberglow to call you out on it?
posted by justgary at 12:25 PM on June 7, 2005

I call bullshit on that article.

not so fast, sheriff.

3bm, jen (dios is excused): do Arsenal fans yell "Russia, Russia" whenever Arsenal plays Chelsea? and frankly Russia is not really a football giant -- it is indeed a pretty sucky nation, football-wise.
Brand USA is not really shiny, these days. and when Thatcherite old gentlemen start cheering for Galloway because he humiliated the yanks, well, it's starting to get interesting

Abramovich came with money to earn glory.

we'll see. one word for you: Parma.
Tanzi seemed to have loads of money, too. now they're bankrupt.

I'm a Chelsea fan (have been for 15 years).

congrats on the win, I give most of the credit to Mourinho (before he came there, the money spent on Mutu Veron Crespo didn't do much, did it?). Abramovich is as big a Chelsea fan as Glazer is a United fan -- very little
posted by matteo at 12:25 PM on June 7, 2005

Thanks, TBM, I wasn't aware of that.
posted by Simon! at 12:25 PM on June 7, 2005

Well, good work on debunking this one, yea legions of the 101st fighting keyboarders.

Now, on to a critical analysis of pre-war intelligence sources!
posted by Freen at 12:54 PM on June 7, 2005

matteo writes "I give most of the credit to Mourinho (before he came there, the money spent on Mutu Veron Crespo didn't do much, did it?). Abramovich is as big a Chelsea fan as Glazer is a United fan -- very little"

Same here (on giving credit to Mourinho). Then again there's no way Mourinho would even be at Chelsea today if it hadn't been that the boss had money to spend and a willingness to spend it, not only on the coach, but on the kind of players that make a championship. Having won the Champions' League Mourinho's position at Porto was definitely not in question. As for Abramovich being wishy-washy, well, I think anyone who claims to know either way are talking out their backsides -- but he's certainly putting his money where his mouth is, at least for the time being. Glazer has already said more than once that he bought the shares because he thinks he can "grow the brand".
posted by clevershark at 12:54 PM on June 7, 2005

As an aside, I made a reference to Manchester United once, calling it "Man U," and none of my friends thought that was a real term for it. Since I'm an American (as are they) with only a vague interest in "football," I sulked away. But now I've been vindicated by the British press!
posted by klangklangston at 1:22 PM on June 7, 2005

yea legions of the 101st fighting keyboarders

Flying fingers on PC or macs
Never served, but who needs facts?
Men who blog just what Dubya Orders
Flacid men, the 101st Keyboarders
...
Mom, put extra bleach on my underwear
Use softener too and have a care"
I'll be wedgied soon by Kerry voters
But I'll blog on, a 101st Keyboarder.
posted by matteo at 1:24 PM on June 7, 2005

(via Patriotboy)
posted by matteo at 1:28 PM on June 7, 2005

I think the point is that chanting "USA" is offensive at all, and that British conservatives take even a little pleasure in Galloway's US grandstanding. Up until the last 10 years or so, USA wouldn't have worked as a negative chant. If it was purely focussed on Glazer, they could have chanted something else. The point is that USA is more offensive then any number of funny chants. It's a minor thing, but it is something.

The point is that brand USA has been diminished, even in Britain. You would have to be pretty ignorant not to have noticed this by now. This is not all to do with Bush, but Iraq and general retardation by his administration has definitely accelerated it.
posted by chaz at 1:30 PM on June 7, 2005

Paul Glazer

ahem: Malcolm Glazer, 3bm.

And his purchase of the club has been financed by the weirdest kind of "credit" you can ever have imagined. Manchester United's profits fell last year but his credit was achieved by unveiling plans to remove the club from the Stock Exchange, make it take the weight of the debt and the repayments thereon, establish a significant hike in profits each year for the next 5 years (the maths behind this are unreleased, however there is no more money in the kitty from TV rights and the fans are so vehemently opposed to the takeover that advertising and merchandise revenue will take a heavy knock). Moreover, it has been suggested that Glazer used the Buccaneers as collateral, ready to be hocked if things turned bad, against the rules of the NFL.

And yes, Arsenal won on penalties, struck them beautifully, every single one. Unfortunately, it came after two whole hours of being the second best team in their own half.
posted by NinjaPirate at 1:32 PM on June 7, 2005

(I agree, returning to the point, that the "USA, USA" chanting would be regarded as mockery: a laugh at Manchester United's vast expense. Football chants are revised, reformulated and replaced every other week; they're topical, they're crude and sometimes oddly poetic, but rarely descend into simple abuse.
Ferdinand's got the wrong hole for this peg of his.)
posted by NinjaPirate at 1:37 PM on June 7, 2005

Rio Ferdinand?
;)
posted by matteo at 1:47 PM on June 7, 2005

I think you have to look at the chant in the context of a football match. Americans know nothing about European football, generally, and so the idea that the largest football club in England has been bought by an American businessman (and the owner of an American grid-iron football team, as well) is embarrassing to the followers of Man U. But I do agree that everyone hates America, anyway, so I'm not agreeing with Dios. Also, I'm an American, so maybe I'm wrong.
posted by underer at 2:03 PM on June 7, 2005

The huge Arsenal fan in me loves the fact that Man U. has been bought out by an American, as it will probably bring about the ruin of the club.

The more-huge Football fan in me hates that fact that Man U. has been bought out by an American, as it will probably bring about the ruin of the club.

And it's my sense that given an excuse to bash a club and America at the same time, there are many football fans, in fact, there are probably many people outside the US, who would jump on that bandwagon.
posted by dopamine at 2:10 PM on June 7, 2005

troutfishing I call bullshit on that article.

The reason 30,000 Arsenal Fans were chanting USA USA was because Paul Glazer, owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, had just bought a controlling interest in Manchester United Arsenal's rival in the match for the FA cup.

No shit, sherlock. Where'd you learn that, the second fucking paragraph of the article? I guess not, or you would have gotten Glazer's name right.

Dimwits. Does anyone even read the links anymore?
posted by mrgrimm at 2:12 PM on June 7, 2005

Waitaminnit, the article specifically acknowledges 3bm's point:

"To rub in the fact that the proudest club in Britain had been bought by an American wheeler-dealer seemed to them the best way to humiliate the Man U supporters, who themselves regarded the sale to Malcolm Glazer in precisely the same light."

On preview, what mrgrimm said.
posted by nickmark at 2:14 PM on June 7, 2005

Waitaminnit, the article specifically acknowledges 3bm's point

Does anyone even read the links anymore?

nobody ever did, really.
but maybe, if the site actually worked every once in a while, they would read a few paragraphs. every once in a while
posted by matteo at 2:17 PM on June 7, 2005

I had a nice post with two different quotations and a witty yet wry comment.

On preview, what mrgrimm and nickmark said.
posted by oddman at 2:21 PM on June 7, 2005

As a Gooner (Arsenal fan) who was at the FA Cup final and was chanting USA with gusto ...

The main reason we chanted USA was wind up the ManUre fans ... there's been really bad blood between the two clubs for several seasons and we took particular delight in their discomforture ... I felt the chant had several possible metameanings:
1) to remind the ManUre fans of their new owners
2) as an insult - disparaging them for their owners
3) conversely that we support the USA (really not sure about that last!)

Anyway I, for one, felt that the chant had a real effect. As NinjaPirate says we played badly in normal time. The penalties were at the ManUre end and their fans made a lot of noise as they scored their first.
There was a huge, overwhelming, torrent of jeers as Lauren scored our first.
I felt helpless - we were the far end from the action and there was so much noise that it seemed we couldn't affect anything.
Then as Scholes prepared to take ManUre's 2nd there was a lull in chanting from their fans and a sudden wave of 'USA USA USA' chants from our end.
Scholes, normally one of the cleanest strikers of the ball in the game, and a reliable player, looked visibly shaken ... and missed !

So I've been arguing for weeks that the chants of 'USA USA USA' won the cup for Arsenal!
posted by dickdotcom at 2:21 PM on June 7, 2005

Yes. I RTF article.

The question you should be asking is whether trout did. The way he framed the post was that the people were chanting USA solely because they hated the USA. It is clear from the facts surrounding the story that the chant had a specific purpose. Trout either knew that and was being disingenuous or didn't bother to figure out what was going on. But he has framed this post that it was a general attack on the country.
posted by dios at 2:33 PM on June 7, 2005

This is not unlike if one wants to get a rise out of NBC executives nowadays, you just have to chant "Manimal! Manimal!"
posted by ZachsMind at 2:35 PM on June 7, 2005

That was a very strange article. Did anybody read beyond the middle? It's all about the Brit attitude to America, and then suddenly:
This resentment is not a million miles away from the resentment that many, if not most, voters feel about the political elites in the European Union.
And wham, it's talking about the EU and becomes a totally different article. Never gets back to the starting point. If it hadn't been for that bizarre "transition" I quoted (more or less equivalent to "And now for something completely different..."), I'd have thought two different pieces got jammed together.

frankly Russia is not really a football giant

The ghost of Lev Yashin glowers upon you!
posted by languagehat at 2:38 PM on June 7, 2005

Yao Ming's good too, L-Hat, but... :)
posted by matteo at 2:48 PM on June 7, 2005

Yes. I RTF article.

I call bullshit on that
posted by matteo at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2005

A well-reasoned (although still speculative) theory of why Glazer bought ManYoo and what he intends to do with them here.

BTW its a pile of shite to think that there was any anti-american sentiment other than Gooners trying to wind up the ManYoo hordes. Football fans do it to each other all the time. Some quality chants particularly the one about ManYoo's Gary Neville, genius. Chelsea's Mourinho had "You got that coat at Matalan" chanted at him by Aston Villa supporters just to wind him and his £20,000 coat up.
posted by ClanvidHorse at 2:53 PM on June 7, 2005

From the chants site

Up in Scotland a few years back Rangers goalkeeper Andy Goram was diagnosed as being mildly schizophrenic. Dundee fans were heard to sing...

Two Andy Gorams,
There's only two Andy Gorams
posted by ClanvidHorse at 2:56 PM on June 7, 2005

With respect to the many Man U fans out there, I'd just like to stand firmly up, place one hand on my chest and sing ...
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?

LMFAO
I'm looking forward to playing the scum in the Championship.
Hopefully, we'll be on our way up as they're on the way down.

And as three blind mice said, the chant had nothing to do with anti-US sentiment. I'm not saying that there isn't a huge amount of anti-Americanism in the UK. There is, this just isn't an example of it. If you're feeling wounded, just think of it as friendly fire.

(friendly fire: Noun. colloq.. Accidental warfare waged by stupid, trigger happy, gung-ho Yanks)
posted by seanyboy at 3:05 PM on June 7, 2005

Two Andy Gorams,
There's only two Andy Gorams

Heh. I've gotta say your football fans are much funnier than ours (for applicable values of "football").
posted by languagehat at 3:30 PM on June 7, 2005

Timeless classics presents: "Chelsea Headhunter's Fireside Anthems"

Such wonders as:

ONE MAN WENT TO MOW

One man went to mow (mow!)
Went to mow a meadow (meadow!)
One man and his dog (Spot!)
Went to mow a meadow

Two men went to mow (mow!)
Went to mow a meadow (meadow!)
Two men, one man and his dog (Spot!)
Went to mow a meadow

Three men went to mow (mow!)
Went to mow a meadow (meadow!)
Three men, two men, one man and his dog (Spot!)
Went to mow a meadow

Four men went to mow (mow!)
Went to mow a meadow (meadow!)
Four men, three men, two men, one man and his dog (Spot!)
Went to mow a meadow

Etc..

Ok, seriously this is a POS journalism about the Gooners giving ManUre a wind up.

My issue is the huge casino GlAsser is building to suck the extra pennis from me dear northern cousins.
posted by Mr Bluesky at 3:52 PM on June 7, 2005

And wham, it's talking about the EU and becomes a totally different article. Never gets back to the starting point.

languagehat, it's a Torygraph article, after all. They couldn't get a single article through article without at least one paragraph of EU-bashing, not even in the Food section.

"And after adding a sprinkling of parsley we leave the stew simmer. Just as I simmer whenever I think of those unelected bureaucrats in Brussels..."
posted by Skeptic at 4:34 PM on June 7, 2005

BTW its a pile of shite to think that there was any anti-american sentiment other than Gooners trying to wind up the ManYoo hordes. Football fans do it to each other all the time.

Ok, seriously this is a POS journalism about the Gooners giving ManUre a wind up.

I think we can all agree that the purpose was to piss off the Manchester United fans as much as possible.

The point is that the USA chant was the most offensive thing that they could think of. I can remember some truly offensive football chants through the years. That Andy Goram chant is child's play compared to some of them. I can't think of any specific ones right now, but they're all personal and extremely mean-spirited. I'll look around.

OK, I'm too lazy and I'm going home. All I can think of are the anti-semitic chants against Tottenham, but there's definitely a history of racist and truly offensive chants in football. It's interesting to see them trade in one hatred for another.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:17 PM on June 7, 2005

While I'm sure many in the UK are not fond of the US these days, to say the chant was about anything other than rubbing Man U fans' noses in their new foreign ownership is pretty stupid.

Can you imagine the chants you'd hear at a Red Sox/Yankees game if either team was foreign owned? It wouldn't be pretty.

BTW, if you're a Man U fan, I wouldn't be too worried. Before Glazer took over the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, they were the laughingstock of the NFL. However, like any true American I think soccer is pretty weak, so that's about as much as I care to comment on the sporting aspect of the issue.
posted by b_thinky at 5:51 PM on June 7, 2005

Egads. If you've been following the whole racist chant/swastika side of football fandom, I can't see why this would be particularly bothersome. But stand by for burning flags.
posted by dreamsign at 6:14 PM on June 7, 2005

Paul Glaser
posted by shoos at 6:43 PM on June 7, 2005

Everton were playing Swindon Town and were beating them 6-2 - the Everton fans were singing "Going down, going down, going down..." The Swindon fans instantly sang back...

So are we,
So are we,
So are we

Outstanding. Why can't American sports fans be this clever?
posted by sellout at 7:18 PM on June 7, 2005

Also, what dreamsign said. "How deeply peculiar it is that the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave should now be the rudest word in the vast lexicon of football insults" is nonsense. This USA chant is child's play.
posted by sellout at 7:23 PM on June 7, 2005

Double Glazing

BTW b-thinky its not about the Prizes (Man U unlike Tampa is a F###ing dynasty & older than the Red Sox/Wankees) But it is about pricing blue collar fans out of the stands and raping the team for profits.

So in honour of your post b_tinky. Ah la CFC Shed 85

Benches, Benches gi's a song
Benches, gi's a song
Benches, Benches gi's a song
Benches, gi's a song

PAUSE

and as no song is forthcoming, in a very derisory fashion

Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhh!!!!!!!

West Stand, West Stand gi's a song
West Stand, gi's a song
West Stand, West Stand gi's a song
West Stand, gi's a song

and unfortunately as no song is usually forthcoming

Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhh!!!!!!!

b_tinky. gi's a song
b_tinky winky, gi' a song
b_tinky. gi's a song
b_tinky winky, gi's a song

Aaaaarrrrggghhhhhh!!!!!!!

All love mate!
posted by Mr Bluesky at 7:28 PM on June 7, 2005

You know, finding the first convenient excuse you can think of and then plugging your ears and yelling "blah blah blah" isn't analysis.

This article was pretty interesting. It is possible that the writer might be stretching the point a little, but I think the opinion is worth consideration, at least.
posted by Chuckles at 8:25 PM on June 7, 2005

Are we mefites dimwits, dumbfucks, fags, or hippies? I'm having an identity crisis.
posted by bardic at 9:49 PM on June 7, 2005

"Are we mefites dimwits, dumbfucks, fags, or hippies?"
I'd go with geeks.
Anyway, Arsenal doesn't matter, the world is going to end in just over 2 minutes time.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:00 PM on June 7, 2005

It's quite simple, bardic.

If you disagree with dios on ideological grounds, you're a hippie.

If you disagree with dios on matters of verifiable fact, you're a dimwit.

If you disagree with dios on a question of morality, you're a dumbfuck.

And if you disagree with dios for personal reasons, you're a fag.
posted by gompa at 11:01 PM on June 7, 2005

It's always a bit of a stretch expecting opinion articles in the UK media to make sense. Particularly the Mail and the Torygraph, who - in their deep understanding of what ordinary people are thinking, ho ho - will seize on any survey, comment, imputed comment or football chant to make whatever knee-jerk reactionary point it was they wanted to make.

Of course, the chant of England at Germany games ("Two world wars and one world cup, doo-dah doo-dah") is clearly a detailed critique of Germany's opposition to reforms of the Common Agricultural Policy.
posted by athenian at 11:34 PM on June 7, 2005

But he has framed this post that it was a general attack on the country.

of course, how you perceived his post is quite beside the point, right? But then, I guess if "dios" sees something a certain way, then it is that way! End moral relativism now! Yay!
posted by telstar at 2:56 AM on June 8, 2005

I am not a football fan but I am British and may I suggest this interpretation:

'USA! USA!' is a well known patriotic and somewhat knuckleheaded chant at American sporting events. British people would be familiar with it from Americans supporting Pete Sampras at Wimbledon, Tiger Woods, Olympics etc etc.

Well, Man U used to be like the America of football - seemingly invincible and for reasons mainly to do with money and the power money brings - and unpopular for that very reason.

Anyhow, could the chant be a double edged taunt - 'you used to be the USA but you're not likely to be ever again, because of the USA'. Some sort of sweet irony in other words.
posted by Summer at 3:50 AM on June 8, 2005

I would also like to add that maybe the knuckleheaded aspect of the chant, which contrasts with the usual wit of the British sporting chants, could be used to suggest the Man U fans are about to turn into knuckleheaded Americans.
posted by Summer at 3:53 AM on June 8, 2005

Only one addition to this, American football (soccer) fans REALLY need to come up with better chants. I imagine that some of the Arsenal supporters (Go Gunners!) were using the chant not only to wind up their ManUre counterparts, but also as a way to point out how absobloodylutely stupid the "Olympic chant" is. In the 25 years since the American hockey team won the gold medal can't anyone come up with a better football chant? These "chants" ALL suck.
posted by terrapin at 7:38 AM on June 8, 2005

Summer is dead on. I was going to post about the mockery of the standard, boring "USA! USA!" American fans, but he/she said it better.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:02 PM on June 8, 2005

I like how Homer chants "USA! USA!" whenever something good happens.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:55 PM on June 8, 2005

Mr Bluesky: suck the extra pennis from me dear northern cousins

Man U; sucking pennis with the best of them.
posted by biffa at 2:41 AM on June 9, 2005

Maybe American sport's fans have shitty chants because they are to busy actually watching people score instead of sitting around watching 120 scoreless minutes of play and thinking up clever rhymes.

zing

And soccer is the correct name for the sport, as it is short for association football. Football is the general term for a variety of ball games including American football, Rugby football, Australian Rules football, Gaelic football, and Canadian football.
posted by afu at 9:05 AM on June 9, 2005 [1 favorite]