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June 15, 2005 10:37 AM   Subscribe

UpdateFilter: Schiavo autopsy results --contrary to those who used this poor shell of a woman as a political football and fundraiser, Schiavo was not abused, was blind so could not possibly have seen a balloon or her loved ones, and had a brain half the normal weight that was massively and irreversibly damaged. previous posts here--and just one example of the many many lies printed about her and her husband here. Some people should really be ashamed of themselves.
posted by amberglow (169 comments total)

 
But they won't be.
posted by The Dryyyyy Cracker at 10:42 AM on June 15, 2005


If someone could just link to Yahoo discussions this will go a lot faster.
posted by docpops at 10:44 AM on June 15, 2005


This is probably a good thing, i.e. had the autopsy been anything even remotely equivocal as far as brain mass, all hell would have (re) broken loose. I'm still waiting to see whether or not the pathologist winds up getting dissected and brutalized.
posted by docpops at 10:46 AM on June 15, 2005


Hmm, so she wasn't faking? My co-worker owes me five bucks.
posted by fenriq at 10:47 AM on June 15, 2005


Medical activism!
posted by Plutor at 10:47 AM on June 15, 2005


Darn those sciency types and their inconvenient facts!

:}

Snark aside, the liberal element saved that poor woman from an indeterminate period of unknown suffering.

I hope all those people who fought for her to be forced to live against her own will (via husband) go braindead except for their pain centers, and are forced to live 20+ years blind and vegetative with a %#* tube down their throats.
posted by modernerd at 10:55 AM on June 15, 2005


Sadly, I don't believe that the autopsy results are going to change many minds about the Terry Schiavo case.
posted by philmas at 10:55 AM on June 15, 2005


Thanks for the update.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:56 AM on June 15, 2005


Thanks amberglow, the autopsy was nothing if not conclusive.
posted by OmieWise at 11:02 AM on June 15, 2005


May she finally rest in peace.
posted by ilsa at 11:08 AM on June 15, 2005


Thanks for the update!
posted by agregoli at 11:09 AM on June 15, 2005


Amber, buddy, I agree with your sentiments 100%, but you know as well as anyone that links to the CNN top story and editorializing on it do not a good post make.
posted by mkultra at 11:11 AM on June 15, 2005


Plutor nails it!
posted by cbjg at 11:17 AM on June 15, 2005


Amber, buddy, I agree with your sentiments 100%, but you know as well as anyone that links to the CNN top story and editorializing on it do not a good post make.

Worth repeating.
posted by GeekAnimator at 11:19 AM on June 15, 2005


We know this NOW, not when the decision was made to pull the plug. It's great that we know NOW that she was completely comatose, but does that suggest that it's a good idea to pull the plug on people when at the time it's less certain? At the time when the decision was made to remove the feeding tube this evidence was not availble. I'd go as far as to say that this result is completely irrelevant to the debate that was going on -- whether to pull the plug or not when AT THE TIME it is uncertain how "alive" somebody is and what their wishes are.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 11:22 AM on June 15, 2005


*pulls tiddles plug*
posted by Balisong at 11:25 AM on June 15, 2005


Being flogged by a dead poliveg is not exactly "best of the web."
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:26 AM on June 15, 2005


Gay marriage: check.
Florida vegetable: check.
Runaway bride: check.
Jacko innocent: check.

I wonder what the next emotionally-charged fringe issue will be. Whatever it is, I bet it will really polarize us and distract us from real issues, such as heath care, jobs, civil liberties, and education.
posted by elderling at 11:27 AM on June 15, 2005


Schiavo ... had a brain half the normal weight...
Some people should really be ashamed of themselves.

Why? That's twice the amount of brain mass then these people have put together...

On preview: thedevildancedlightly, you have it slightly wrong; this is what YOU know now. The doctors who treated her knew it THEN. There IS a difference.
posted by c13 at 11:29 AM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly, anyone who was in the field of anything to do with brains who saw those old brain scans knew she was braindead. We knew it then.

All the stuff about how she was alive and could recover came from the family, and people who have eternal hope that against the odds a woman with most of her brain gone would recover.

The doc who came out and said she could make a full recovery, if you look at his history, advertises in the enquirer and has no published papers...

Anyhoo... not a flame... just saying, there was solid evidence she was dead years ago before this became a media circus
posted by MildlyDisturbed at 11:29 AM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly, you're right, the autopsy report wasn't available while she was still alive but there was plenty of evidence buried in all the rhetoric that she was incapable of recovery. All this is is just proving what many already knew and a final "Suck it" to the publicity whores that tried to use her for their own political, medical and soapboxinal purposes.
posted by fenriq at 11:30 AM on June 15, 2005


I suspect a lot of people are going to smile and smugly think to themselves "we won."
posted by dios at 11:28 AM EST on March 25 [!]


Woohoo! We won the autopsy!
posted by AlexReynolds at 11:30 AM on June 15, 2005


whether to pull the plug or not when AT THE TIME it is uncertain how "alive" somebody is and what their wishes are

No, that's bullshit. Only one crackpot doctor who diagnosed her via a video tape said she wasn't brain dead. Otherwise, it was an accepted fact.
posted by SweetJesus at 11:30 AM on June 15, 2005


Snark aside, the liberal element saved that poor woman from an indeterminate period of unknown suffering.

nope, she was brain dead: nothing there to undergo suffering.

Thanks for the update, though; glad to see the doctors were right.

We know this NOW, not when the decision was made to pull the plug.

well, we were perhaps less completely sure at the time the decision was made, but the best medical assessments were exactly this. The fact that we couldn't cut her open and double-check left room for speculation, but the reason the court ended up ruling as it did was precisely because science was pretty sure about its diagnosis.
posted by mdn at 11:34 AM on June 15, 2005


The full autopsy report [pdf] provided by Abstract Appeal, which had good coverage of the appeals process.
posted by ltl at 11:34 AM on June 15, 2005


Sorry. Working link to Abstract Appeal.
posted by ltl at 11:37 AM on June 15, 2005


Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results
Surprise, surprise....
posted by Floydd at 11:45 AM on June 15, 2005


There were no winners in this.
posted by caddis at 11:46 AM on June 15, 2005


From what I can tell, this isn't changing any minds.

Both her diagnosis, and her wishes were kicked back and forth through a legal system predisposed to err or the side of continued matainance multiple times. At the end, it simply became an issue of how many times her parents were willing to loose in court in the hopes of finding a judge that would go their way.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:49 AM on June 15, 2005


I can excuse the parents as they were just too weak willed to accept reality. Everyone else who helped them bears the real shame in using Terry's tragedy for mere political gain.
posted by caddis at 11:50 AM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly writes "It's great that we know NOW that she was completely comatose, but does that suggest that it's a good idea to pull the plug on people when at the time it's less certain?"

Senator Frist -- Doctor Senator Frist -- was "certain" that Terry Schiavo responded to visual stimuli. Because he watched a video tape.

Let me ask you, thedevildancedlightly, would you put your mother under Frist's medical care?
posted by orthogonality at 11:55 AM on June 15, 2005


I'm glad amber posted it. I could have read the story on CNN but I wouldn't have gotten the additional comment input. A good post comes as much from the discussion that follows as it does from the initial link.
posted by Carbolic at 11:57 AM on June 15, 2005


We know this NOW, not when the decision was made to pull the plug. It's great that we know NOW that she was completely comatose, but does that suggest that it's a good idea to pull the plug on people when at the time it's less certain? At the time when the decision was made to remove the feeding tube this evidence was not available. I'd go as far as to say that this result is completely irrelevant to the debate that was going on -- whether to pull the plug or not when AT THE TIME it is uncertain how "alive" somebody is and what their wishes are.

How can you say that? The information we have now is nothing new. The same information was known during most of the 15 year ordeal. Doctors did many brain wave scans and CAT scans and came up with the same results many times. Her brain was tested and and her wishes were litigated many, many times over 15 years by many doctors, case works, lawyers and over 30 judges.

Besides one can never know 110% for sure. That's there is a system in place to make sure doctors and judges review this information over and over again. In this case, she got more review, more tests and more second bites at the apple that anyone could ever hope to get. When is enough, enough? Unless you are willing to spend 100% of GDP on such cases review must be stopped at some point. In her case that normal point was exceed at least 100 fold. Again, inquires such as this, as you seem to support, cannot go on forever.
posted by Bag Man at 12:05 PM on June 15, 2005


Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results

"Hi Mr. and Mrs. Schindler, I'm Earth. Have we met?"
posted by Bag Man at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2005


Let me ask you, thedevildancedlightly, would you put your mother under Frist's medical care?

is thedevildance's mom rich, and a widow?
posted by matteo at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2005


But this is par for the course, isn't it? Science essentially proves the case of those who said there was no hope for recovery, but for those who insisted there was it was never about science in the first place - it was about faith, it was about miracles, it was about anti-science; it was about how science and the cold calculations inherent in it are essentially dehumanizing.

That's the subtext to Schiavo, to stem cells, to the whole "culture of life" debate; in a world where science is able to explain more and more, what shall remain sacred?

The problem is that the shrill "defenders" of Terri Schiavo never approached the debate from this angle; they preferred the art of the smear ("her husband abused her/all he wanted was her money"), they preferred to do the long-distance bullshit diagnosis a la Dr. Frist, they lied. As caddis notes, from the parents I can understand the self-delusion; for everyone else it ultimately became about power, about who will define what life is.
posted by kgasmart at 12:08 PM on June 15, 2005


Goddamn activist medical examiners... sheesh.
posted by aGreatNotion at 12:15 PM on June 15, 2005


To have shame, one must first have a conscience.
posted by Floach at 12:27 PM on June 15, 2005


Stellar FPP.
posted by dhoyt at 12:31 PM on June 15, 2005


Who's Terri Schiavo?
posted by Debaser626 at 12:38 PM on June 15, 2005


If someone could just link to Yahoo discussions this will go a lot faster.
posted by docpops at 10:44 AM PST on June 15


I flagged this as a good comment.

But it is annoying that this website is not appreciably different than Yahoo! News discussions: "Here is a news article. Lets discuss!"

_______________

If I made one FPP to news.yahoo.com and www.cnn.com, how many of the posts recently would be considered double posts?
Too many
posted by dios at 12:38 PM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly:

We know this NOW, not when the decision was made to pull the plug.

I'd go as far as to say that this result is completely irrelevant to the debate that was going on -- whether to pull the plug or not when AT THE TIME it is uncertain


If I replace "pull the plug" with "go to war", could this be your explanation for Iraq, too?
posted by wakko at 12:39 PM on June 15, 2005


It's a good thing we are unable to determine with 100% accuracy whether someone executed by the state was truly guilty or not.
I wonder if TDDL takes a similar stance on capital punishment as do some less erudite fundies.
posted by notreally at 12:47 PM on June 15, 2005


dios - Really. Seriously. Fuck off. If you hate metafilter so much why do you keep coming back?
posted by bshort at 12:55 PM on June 15, 2005


notreally:

I think he just takes whatever position he thinks will prompt the most replies to his profoundly stupid posts.
posted by wakko at 12:56 PM on June 15, 2005


dios, "they won"... don't be a sore loser.
posted by gsb at 12:58 PM on June 15, 2005


Thanks for the update.
posted by five fresh fish


I agree, if amberglow wouldn't have posted this front page cnn/foxnews/nytimes article how in the world would we have found out?
posted by justgary at 12:58 PM on June 15, 2005


Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results

Because they're idiots.

Stellar FPP.

And it remains because nobody can ever say "no" to Mefi's most favoritest homo. {coddle coddle}
posted by Witty at 1:00 PM on June 15, 2005


The fark thread for this is huge. I hear freerepublic is spinning madly. And the right wingnut news sites are already pretending this makes no difference and that they were right (which is BS).

bshort: because he can't kvetch where he likes the place?
posted by modernerd at 1:03 PM on June 15, 2005


Why is everyone so hard on dios when the comment isn't anything new? I sort of agree there. I mean, yeah, a lot of FPPs have been newsposts lately. That's a fact.

I don't mind this one though. I am glad for the update and ensuing discussion.
posted by agregoli at 1:05 PM on June 15, 2005


And it remains because nobody can ever say "no" to Mefi's most favoritest homo. {coddle coddle}
posted by Witty at 1:00 PM PST on June 15 [!]


Amberglow's GAY!! Huh.. You learn something new every day.
posted by Balisong at 1:08 PM on June 15, 2005


After watching the doctors' press conference, I was impressed with the thoroughness of the autopsy report and how carefully they chose their words to write their conclusions, only to want to scream at the television as journalists misrepresent the findings with a lack of carefully chosen words in their reporting. For example, I've heard two journalists (the first being Daryn Kagan, as I was watching the press conference on CNN) report the autopsy results as having concluded she was in a "persistent vegetative state", when the doctors were very careful to explain that her condition was consistent to that of a person in a consistent vegetative state. I realize that reporters have a tough job to do, especially with live, developing stories, but it seems to me that if you can't carefully listen to words and accurately report on them, you might want to find a different line of work.
That having been said, I would love to believe that the facts and findings of the autopsy will provide an opportunity for all of those who made such horrible accusations about Michael Schiavo to reconsider their opinions. Unfortunately, between the sad state of journalism in our country and a seemingly contagious viral resistance to critical thinking, I have lost faith in the ability of a thin, yet overrepresented majority of our society to form rational, reasoned opinions based upon the facts of a case.
posted by Dr. Zira at 1:08 PM on June 15, 2005


"...anyone who was in the field of anything to do with brains who saw those old brain scans knew she was braindead."

Does that include zombies?

Braaaaiiiinnnnsssss....

posted by Darkman at 1:08 PM on June 15, 2005


Well, I always thought, being relatively new here, that part of the responsibility of MeTa membership was to avoid the obvious post. And I think this post is as newsfilter as any can be. And as well, the level of discussion is pure shit, with few exceptions. So why pile on dios? If this fpp came from anyone with a newer membership it would have been flagged already and removed. I think if someone posts something this mediocre, fine, let them, but have the stones to endure some reasonable reminders of why newsfilter posts suck. My personal feeling is that it ties up brains and eyeballs on posts and discussions that would be more enlightening and interesting elsewhere.
posted by docpops at 1:19 PM on June 15, 2005


I love it when folks on the right here at mefi are conclusively, indsiputably proven incorrect on a subject. Suddenly it's "shit post, bad fpp, newsfilter, who cares?" time...

Imagine the moralistic finger wagging that would be taking place had the examiner even found inconclusive results.
posted by stenseng at 1:23 PM on June 15, 2005


stenseng, just in the off chance you are referring to me, I'm what you might call...not very conservative. The tone of your post, ironically, only confirms my original comment. Garbage in, garbage out.
posted by docpops at 1:27 PM on June 15, 2005


"Schiavo's Parents Don't Believe Autopsy Results"

Because she could still rise from the grave.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:28 PM on June 15, 2005


The three day warranty has passed on that, Smedleyman.
posted by Fezboy! at 1:29 PM on June 15, 2005


And honestly, I for one am really kind of sick of the constant yowling and kvetching over the relative merits of fpps - don't like the post? move the shit on.

Should take less than a fraction of a second to glance over a post and see if it merits your interest. How long does it take you to post that "shit post" snark?

I've been reading Metafilter for about four years now, and generally, I find the content to be about 50% random sometimes interesting stuff (your "best of the web") and about 50% newsfilter/topical discussion/current events/debate and discussion

And to me anyway, that's okay. I read Metafilter to find stuff that's of interest and to learn more about the world, and that's fine, whether it's a series of links about the Oak Island Treasure, Balinese Cockfighting, or what some jagoff like Bill Frist is up to now.

Let's spend more time posting interesting stuff, and less time snarking. And if you don't like the post, move on, flag it, or better yet, post something better. Let Matt worry about the quality/appropriateness of a post. It's his gig.
posted by stenseng at 1:30 PM on June 15, 2005


Why pile on dios? Because he never has anything substantive to contribute to the conversation and when a post is about something that he dislikes he immediately starts whining about whether the post meets the guidelines rather than engaging in a substantive discussion.
posted by bshort at 1:32 PM on June 15, 2005


stenseng, and in case you were referring to me... I think they should have pulled the plug on that woman about 14 years ago.
posted by Witty at 1:35 PM on June 15, 2005


stenseng,

Personally I don't usually find Yahoo front-page posts a big deal, but you know, I think members of MeTa are sort of protective of this place. I think for some, myself included, there's a real aversion to seeing things get littered up with the same crap and dross as everywhere else, and so some things are met with more visceral responses. And that's OK. People should feel free to be critical if they want. I think that you would literally have to be in a box not to have seen this story six different times if you happen to also have access to a computer and therefore MeTa. And the subject was vile and nauseating the first twenty times.

rather than engaging in a substantive discussion.
posted by bshort at 1:32 PM PST on June 15 [!]


Please show me anything substantive on this thread.
posted by docpops at 1:40 PM on June 15, 2005


I thought Witty was MeFi's favorite homo?
posted by tr33hggr at 1:44 PM on June 15, 2005


Why pile on dios? Because he never has anything substantive to contribute to the conversation and when a post is about something that he dislikes he immediately starts whining about whether the post meets the guidelines rather than engaging in a substantive discussion.
posted by bshort at 1:32 PM PST on June 15


This is nonsense. I contribute substantive things all the time.

But you think I should engage in "substantive" discussion in this thread? WHAT could be substantive in this thread? Apparently everything other than cracks on Christians or "Me too" is considered lacking in substance by you.

And if you think I "whine" every time I see a post I don't like, then you are clearly wrong. If I did that, in the present state Metafilter is in, my contribution index would be about 5 times what it is now.
posted by dios at 1:45 PM on June 15, 2005


If you don't like the thread then either move on or take it to MeTa. You're breaking the very guidelines that you claim to hold in such high esteem.

And by the way, your claims of a bad thread would resonate more if they didn't stink of sour grapes.
posted by bshort at 1:50 PM on June 15, 2005


God would have saved her if her parents loved her just a little bit more.
posted by klangklangston at 1:52 PM on June 15, 2005


And it remains because nobody can ever say "no" to Mefi's most favoritest homo. {coddle coddle}

Shiavo and now Witty! The braindead have risen!
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:59 PM on June 15, 2005


Halleluah!
posted by AlexReynolds at 1:59 PM on June 15, 2005


This is nonsense. I contribute substantive things all the time.

I suppose Dios is right, if his definition of "substantive contributions" includes kicking cripples around.
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:02 PM on June 15, 2005


Alex, you have brought that up a half dozen times now, but apparently you won't quit trolling until I address you. (Instead, you will just continue to show what a pathetic and immature person you are).

The first thread, HERE on Metafilter isn't insulting "cripples" as anyone who bothers to look at it can tell. It is a thread about an interesting documentary about people who have a desire to mutilate themselves. The other thread is a joke from off-site, which is obviously a joke as I claim that it is me. Its lame for you to be bringing off-site stuff here and act like it is so damnig.

I'm really getting tired of your endless trolling of me with stupid petty gripes. You really need to grow up and get a life. You are not even 1/1000th as clever as you think you are, and you continually bring up stuff that doesn't prove the points you assert that they prove---you just mischaracterize it and slander me anywhay.

So knock it off your incessant and pointless trolling of me. I have asked you several times now.
posted by dios at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2005


I really enjoyed that second linked thread.
posted by agregoli at 2:09 PM on June 15, 2005


So knock it off your incessant and pointless trolling of me. I have asked you several times now.

Remember, God: Disagreement with someone is not trolling.

So take your endless stream of bullshit and whining to Metatalk or STFU, already.
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:12 PM on June 15, 2005


The post / thread on limb amputation was actually really fucking amazing.
posted by docpops at 2:12 PM on June 15, 2005


The braindead have risen!

Then please, I beg you to put me out of my misery and kill yourself... take pamperglow-boy with you.
posted by Witty at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2005


AR - you are sounding like a total cock-helmet.
posted by docpops at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2005


"Schiavo. . . had a brain half the normal weight that was massively and irreversibly damaged"

...but could she vote Republican?!
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2005


AlexReynolds, calling voluntary amputees "cripples" is like calling the Menendez brothers "orphans."
And that front page post of dios' was pretty good.
This thread, however, is mostly poop.
posted by Floydd at 2:15 PM on June 15, 2005


Then please, I beg you to put me out of my misery and kill yourself... take pamperglow-boy with you.

That comeback was so totally weak, Witty: don't you have some more homo material?! HAR HAR HAR!
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:15 PM on June 15, 2005


My mistake. Given the voter rolls in Florida, Mrs. Schiavo may still be eligible to vote.
posted by insomnia_lj at 2:18 PM on June 15, 2005


It's not a comeback sweetie... it's a plea.
posted by Witty at 2:26 PM on June 15, 2005


You guys are totally out of line here. Dios had a valid comment about newsfilter and you seem to pile on him because of his prior history. Now we get Witty name calling. Step away from the keyboard and relax.
posted by caddis at 2:26 PM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly, if you actually paid attention to what the DOCTORS said, it was a certainty that this would be the outcome. There was no doubt. None. Zero.

We had all the information then that we do now. There is nothing new here. This isn't proof... it was ALREADY proved.

Any claims to the contrary both were and are wishful thinking. And it was obvious to anyone willing to actually research the issue a bit.
posted by Malor at 2:32 PM on June 15, 2005


Right on, caddis!

This thread is over though, right?
posted by agregoli at 2:33 PM on June 15, 2005


Let's try to get back on track, kids. What's funny about both the news story and FPP is that, indeed, the story would only have been shocking if the autopsy report revealed that Ms. Schiavo had indeed been a functioning human being and capable of recovery. The reason that it's such a non-story is that only a fucking maroon - and I won't mention any names - would possibly think that anyone "killed" Terri or would expect the autopsy results to be any different.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:34 PM on June 15, 2005


All in all, this has been a tremendous thread.

Though the post itself was pretty shaky—understandably, though, considering it was crafted by a rank amateur who has not been around MeFi for very long, thus couldn't have known any better—things have really reached an intellectual pitch here downthread, so: kudos.

Threads like these are like 'the old days' for which certain folks pine: shitslinging, partisan blather, and I-Told-You-So-Itis. Anyone up for a MetaTalk thread where we can fondly reflect on the experience?
posted by dhoyt at 2:34 PM on June 15, 2005


This thread is over though, right?

Not until Ace and Gary have publicly off-ed themselves.
posted by Witty at 2:36 PM on June 15, 2005


Ok, there does seem to be quite a bit of "I-told-you-so-filter" here on MeFi. Part of this is natural umbrage at the constant denial of reality upheld by a certain side of the political spectrum. I do have to agree with the "move on" people, though. It only clutters up this much of your screen if you actually bother to enter the thread. Otherwise, it's what? Half a dozen lines? Skip it. Or does that movie at the local art house bother you so much that no one else should be allowed to see it, either?

As for whether this could be caught elsewhere, honestly? I caught the headline here and there and never bothered to read the story. I'd rather have the story and comments of one of my favourite online communities if I were to be bothered with it at all. Had I guessed that most of the thread would be snarking about "appropriateness", though, I wouldn't have bothered. *This* is an appropriate use of the Blue?
posted by dreamsign at 2:37 PM on June 15, 2005


It's not a comeback sweetie... it's a plea.

That was the best fag joke you had? What a lazy, pathetic attempt to derail.

No commitment from these weasely, sniveling trolls whatsoever...
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:39 PM on June 15, 2005


All in all, this has been a tremendous thread.

well, thank God you saved it!
I alaso appreciated how, as usual, sen Miller, you just attacked the damn evil lib'rul -- saying nothing about the cynical, heartless fucks (some of them in Congress) who tried to convince America that Schiavo was seeing, thinking, talking, playing chess, etc. evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

oh, I also liked how you immediately called out dios on the "homo" slur. too bad amberglow's not Italian, too, I guess!
posted by matteo at 2:43 PM on June 15, 2005


I hope that this whole thing reinforces the idea that we should listen to doctors and scientists. They go to school for years and years and years in service to the search for truth and we ignore them at our peril.

Going all anti-intellectual and making ludicrous claims because your political sensibilities are offended is just a bad bad idea.
posted by bshort at 2:44 PM on June 15, 2005


Watching some of you people waste so much time on metafilter has made me realize I waste too much time on metafilter.
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:45 PM on June 15, 2005


I agree, if amberglow wouldn't have posted this front page cnn/foxnews/nytimes article how in the world would we have found out?
I honestly have not seen hide nor hair of this information in my webbrowsing today and yesterday. I do monitor six new sources, but none are US American dailies; and I do monitor a bunch of blogs, but most of them are of the tech/geek/art/business sort. I do not monitor the popular "personal interest" craptastical spew that vomits forth from the media.

So for me, it was nice to be informed. Weak-ass post, more appropriate to MeTa, but there it is.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:46 PM on June 15, 2005


dreamsign - Other than, maybe, thedevildancedlightly (and I think he/she was just trying to make a potential point), who in this thread has been trying to argue against the I-told-you-so's? Wasn't me. dhoyt?
posted by Witty at 2:49 PM on June 15, 2005


I also liked how you immediately called out dios on the "homo" slur.
posted by matteo at 2:43 PM PST on June 15


What are you talking about? I know I'm your boogey-straw man that you like to burn, but you are wrong on this, and should apologize.
posted by dios at 2:49 PM on June 15, 2005


Don't hold your breath, trollboy.
posted by AlexReynolds at 2:52 PM on June 15, 2005


Mefi's most favoritest homo here, Witty.
What part of "UpdateFilter" did you not understand? Was it the "Update" part? the "Filter" part? The links to all the many previous stories here on her tragedy? It's not complicated. Go play in the Michael Jackson thread, why don't you? or the GOP porn star thread. Or...maybe...just maybe...you can take it to MeTa like a human being instead of a bigoted troll.

Thanks for the actual autopsy report link, ltl.
posted by amberglow at 2:54 PM on June 15, 2005


oh, I also liked how you immediately called out dios on the "homo" slur.

Just as I enjoyed how you showed your objectivity by cowering in the corner while everyone else was pointing out what a steaming shitpile this thread is, which you know deep down. I understand: you didn't want to insult your shopping & gossip buddy, airheaded as he may be. When I'm in Milan, can we go for an espresso so you'll stand up for me in threads?

who in this thread has been trying to argue against the I-told-you-so's? Wasn't me. dhoyt?

Nope. The chick should've been euthanized years ago. *shrugs*

Guess the topic being what is is: Politics-Lite — precisely the kind of mainstream grotesque divisive garbage amberglow traffics in — it has never urged me before now to care enough to type my opinion. I'm just amused by the phony high-road so many of you take when dealing with information like the Schiavo case. Amberglow, et al, you think you're any better for politicizing Schiavo's case and smearing it all over the blog world? Please. You're just as obnoxious as the "pro-lifers".
posted by dhoyt at 2:58 PM on June 15, 2005


matteo, I thought you were portugese not italian. Hmmm.
posted by jmgorman at 3:01 PM on June 15, 2005


Mind, I figure the thread saves the post by demonstrating with clarity the dangers of faith over science. Even in a relatively intelligent and rational environment such as we have on MeFi, we still have a few deluded lunatics who continue to protest that faith should trump science. Madness, that.

If the stupidity of "but we didn't know for sure!" is common, then we must be utterly vigilant in protecting our government and our judiciary from the destructive force of religion. Schiavo should have been a cut-and-dried case, and the fact the religionists got as far as they did is a scary prospect for the future.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:02 PM on June 15, 2005


Oh, and: when did dios make a homo "slur"?
posted by dhoyt at 3:02 PM on June 15, 2005


Witty did, not dios.

Meta

posted by Divine_Wino at 3:08 PM on June 15, 2005


Why are you putting slur in scare quotes, dhoyt?
posted by AlexReynolds at 3:10 PM on June 15, 2005


Wait, wait, I have a grudge against someone! Can I just yell it out here? That's what this is for, right?
Could we at least get Jonmc in here to tell us about how great Uriah Heap was?
posted by klangklangston at 3:10 PM on June 15, 2005


Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me

Take me out
To the black
Tell 'em I ain't coming back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me

There's no place I can be
since I found Serenity
You can't take the sky from me
posted by Snyder at 3:20 PM on June 15, 2005


I figure the thread saves the post by demonstrating with clarity the dangers of faith over science. Even in a relatively intelligent and rational environment such as we have on MeFi, we still have a few deluded lunatics who continue to protest that faith should trump science

Who, exactly, made that claim, in what post? I think you and I might be reading different threads. I just saw a lot of "me too" and then a derail about AlexReynolds.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 3:24 PM on June 15, 2005


Metafilter: find stuff that's of interest and to learn more about the world, because you'd rather be working maybe?

Metafilter: Your most favoritest homo

Metafilter: With new added "no dagos"

(I'm Italian)

It's just talk. Unless your stated purpose to disrupt. Don't see that here. Schiavo on the other hand....
posted by Smedleyman at 3:26 PM on June 15, 2005


you know, I'm a liberal who would have loved to see some decent discussion of just precisely this issue on MeFi, but I was going to callout this post for shameless editorializing before I saw that it already had 100+ comments in thread. If i thought I could avoid the tar and feathering of "you called out a post that has 100+ comments in it?! wtf?!" I'd still do it. So I'm going to go ahead and say that this fpp was doomed from the start. way to go, amberglow.

What's funny is that I remember the thread about blue-fingered voting iraqis getting called out for much the same reason, as well as abu ghraib threads. oh well.
posted by shmegegge at 3:29 PM on June 15, 2005


If a human is in a vegatative state, then how can we say that she's suffering? If she can't feel anything, there's nothing wrong with her being a houseplant, save the waste of materials and money. You can't say she can't feel anything and then say she's suffering.

In case you ask, I'm pro-euthenasia for her, but only because she's a waste of money, that could and should be used on other patients.
posted by Citizen Premier at 3:39 PM on June 15, 2005


In related news Bill Frist told reporters that, having seen only a photo of the report's cover, he disagreed with the conclusions.
posted by clevershark at 3:45 PM on June 15, 2005


Clevershark wins.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:48 PM on June 15, 2005


Citizen Premier, I think the best way to approach your question is what would the lucid Terri have wanted for the vegetative Terri? Would she have wanted to stay alive even with a dead brain and slowly, slowly die? Or would she have preferred to die with a wee bit of dignity and no asshole politicians standing on her back trying to distract investigations into their own misdeeds?

I would imagine that she would have chosen some dignity and not being a tool for tools like Tom DeLay. That's the suffering part as I see it.

The only good that's come out of this, in addition to it being over, is that asshats like DeLay, Frist, Jeb Bush and the others look like the shitheels they are.
posted by fenriq at 3:53 PM on June 15, 2005


Good one from the appropriately named clevershark.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:57 PM on June 15, 2005


My apologies, but this was too funny...

posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:06 PM on June 15, 2005


Would someone please call me a name? I'm short if that will help you. Please!
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:07 PM on June 15, 2005


strangeleftydoublethink? More like strangeshortydoublethink!
posted by Snyder at 4:19 PM on June 15, 2005


Interesting, from page 29-34 of the pdf: Back in 1990, 911 was called at 5:40am, but the paramedics didn't establish measurable blood pressure until 6:46. And they can't prove that she was bulimic. And claims from caregivers of past oral feedings are remarkable, and, based on the autopsy findings and medical records, these feedings were potentially harmful, or, at least extremely dangerous to Mrs. Schiavo's health and welfare.
posted by amberglow at 4:23 PM on June 15, 2005


Would someone please call me a name? I'm short if that will help you. Please!
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:07 PM PST on June 15


strangeshortydoubleshort whose mom is short and his dad also and his sister looks tall but she's not she's really short and their clothes that are all short shorty shorty short....

I'm not very good at this...
posted by Stauf at 4:38 PM on June 15, 2005


Jesus Christ.

Over 100 comments, and you know what? I've been thoroughly entertained. There was a discussion. Opinions were voiced. Sides were taken. Jokes were made.

How is this a bad FPP? Because it's on CNN.com?

Am I wrong, or is a large part of the reason we all participate in MetaFilter that we enjoy a relatively smart and witty community with which to discuss things? I am relatively new here but I'm starting to recognize more names and styles, and it's quite enjoyable. I, for one, am interested in what people think about this case and the myriad things it represents, and the Blue is a place I often find interesting discussion. We're not Yahoo discussions, we're metafilter, and we like "talking" with each other. Arguing, agreeing, disagreeing. I come here to read what y'all think about cool websites, and what's going on in the world.

All these snarky comments about lousy posts take up space and are fairly useless.
posted by ORthey at 4:41 PM on June 15, 2005


Civil_Disobedient - I feel bad for laughing!
posted by ericb at 4:53 PM on June 15, 2005


well said, ORthey. So...what do you think? and don't forget to check out the pdf ltl posted. (i had no idea before about why she collapsed originally, and kinda still don't, but at least now we know it wasn't bulimia, as the media had reported)
posted by amberglow at 5:12 PM on June 15, 2005


strangerightydoublethink.
Who's for getting sloppy on gin?
posted by boo_radley at 5:20 PM on June 15, 2005


I agree, if amberglow wouldn't have posted this front page cnn/foxnews/nytimes article how in the world would we have found out? by justgary

This guy is the worst kind of troll. He's an asshole but doesn't realize it. Gary, clue: read my last sentence. No- really read it.
posted by surferboy at 6:17 PM on June 15, 2005


After all the crap in this thread, I still think amberglow was right. The autopsy showed that there never was hope, which all the doctors except one hack thought all along. The people who used Terri's predicament to push their definition of life should be ashamed. They have been shown up for what they are by this autopsy. I nevertheless stand by my earlier comment that in this there are no winners. This thread played out about as well as the whole fight over Terri; there were no winners.
posted by caddis at 6:25 PM on June 15, 2005


I'm a winner.
posted by docpops at 6:47 PM on June 15, 2005


Plus, you are good enough, you are smart enough, and doggone it, people like you.
- another daily affirmation
posted by caddis at 6:52 PM on June 15, 2005


All these snarky comments about lousy posts take up space and are fairly useless.
Orthey: It's the ad-hominems. Oh the brain hurting ad-hominems.

That said, strangeleftydoublethink is a vegetable face.
posted by Popular Ethics at 7:18 PM on June 15, 2005


thedevildancedlightly: We know this NOW, [. . .]

C'mon, are you conceding a point to the enemy just because of sound medical evidence? You're really losing your touch. You should just join in with the Schiavo's parents and start a smear campaign against the medical examiners.

I'd go as far as to say that this result is completely irrelevant to the debate that was going on [. . . ]

I guess it depend upon what your definition of "is" is. Let's see:

1. Parents disrespect their daughter's (and her husband's) wishes that she be put out of her misery. Check.
2. Parents claim life should be continued based on hope and quack doctor's assurances that daughter can be rehabilitated. Check.
3. Parents accuse husband of beating his wife and attempting to gain from her life insurance. Check.
4. Every right-wing politician in the country trys to advance his/her cause by hitching pony to faith at the expense of the rule of law and the evidence of science. Check.
5. Autopsy reveals that parents were deluded and politicians were full of shit. Check.

Looks pretty damned relevant to me.
posted by wheat at 7:20 PM on June 15, 2005


Having read this thread, I am left with one question.

Terri Schiavo was... gay?

WHUT? I am trying to reconcile the gay epithets being thrown about with the topic at hand, and I've got nothing.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 9:57 PM on June 15, 2005


Thanks to all for the name calling. I feel like an integral part of this thread now, whatever it is about. For the record, I'm 5'5" and I don't have a sister.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 10:03 PM on June 15, 2005


Integral part of the thread? More like strangesisterlessdoublethink!

(Sorry, I just got here. Traffic was a bitch.

And so was your - oh, wait. Damn._

posted by soyjoy at 10:55 PM on June 15, 2005


Civil_Disobedient, you are a threadsaver.
posted by gsb at 11:06 PM on June 15, 2005


Ooooooh, gin. Lovely....
posted by Samizdata at 11:12 PM on June 15, 2005


Dr. Frist has moved on to bigger and better things: trying to deny parents of autism-stricken children the right to sue the pharmaceutical companies who poisoned them.

(Salon link: worth the daypass, and whatever reserves of outrage you have left.)
posted by melissa may at 11:20 PM on June 15, 2005


Donutcare.
posted by TwelveTwo at 12:42 AM on June 16, 2005


Terri Schiavo was... gay?

grapefruitmoon has revealed the solution. The lead section of newly drafted living wills should have the appended phrase: "...and because I'm gay." Certainly Bush would never have heroically emerged from Crawford to save a god-forsaken comatose homosexual; nor would DeLay have transformed his rhetoric into that off a present-day John Brown for such an abhorrent vegetable.

As for the rest of us: "I love my now-allowed-to-die gay spouse!"
posted by Haruspex at 3:07 AM on June 16, 2005


Terri did not die from an atrophied brain. She died from an atrophy of compassion on the part of her estranged husband and those who helped him to have her deliberately killed. ~ Frank Pavone
posted by bevets at 5:41 AM on June 16, 2005


Aww, Bevets, you do care! She actually died of dehydration. That's when the body doesn't have enough water, Bevets. Death caused by atrophy of compassion is exceedingly rare, and most commonly found in fairies that aren't clapped for.
posted by klangklangston at 5:47 AM on June 16, 2005


*clap clap clap clap*
posted by MrMoonPie at 5:58 AM on June 16, 2005


Haruspex: you're so right.
posted by amberglow at 6:01 AM on June 16, 2005


NYT today: The autopsy results released yesterday should embarrass all the opportunistic politicians and agenda-driven agitators who meddled in Terri Schiavo's right-to-die case. There is no evidence that Ms. Schiavo's husband did any of the awful things attributed to him, and no hope that her greatly damaged brain would ever have recovered. The courts were right to conclude that she should be allowed to die after 15 years in what her doctors described as a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. ...
posted by amberglow at 6:05 AM on June 16, 2005


To have shame, one must first have a conscience.
posted by Floach at 3:27 PM EST on June 15


That needed repeating.

Amberglow, et al, you think you're any better for politicizing Schiavo's case and smearing it all over the blog world?

Wait a minute! Wasn't it the GOP Congress and the GOP Prez and the GOP Florida Governor who did the politicizing? Or does Amberglow wear many faces? I say Jeb wanted to save another typically potential GOP voter then dhoyt.

Frist the cat killer says Schiavo reacts to visual stimuli and MUST be sentient while the REAL doctors say she's been blind and vegetative for years. Unbelievable what Frist will do and say to kiss the right wing extremist Mullah Dobson's ass! And this from the Senate Majority Leader, not some nutjob on the radio like Rush. Pitiful.
posted by nofundy at 6:24 AM on June 16, 2005


The subject was discussed extensively here while it was going on. Amberglow, with his link, was concluding. That's how I see his post. Everything else is just bitching. And, yes, Witless: piss off, stupid!
posted by acrobat at 6:40 AM on June 16, 2005


Terri did not die from an atrophied brain. She died from an atrophy of compassion on the part of her estranged husband and those who helped him to have her deliberately killed. ~ Frank Pavone

klangklangston

She actually died of dehydration.

"I shot him. Bullets and the fall killed him."
posted by bevets at 6:51 AM on June 16, 2005


I have lost faith in the ability of a thin, yet overrepresented majority of our society to form rational, reasoned opinions based upon the facts of a case.

It's the Internet Age, Baby! You don't need reason! (bah!) Facts!? HAHA!

Opinions!! Yes!! Opinions make the world go round. Opinions sell the products! Opinions let the devildancedwhateverhisnameis and the other right-wing cyberfighters to keep America on track through MetaBitter!

But that's just my opinion...
posted by AspectRatio at 8:23 AM on June 16, 2005


Dr. Frist has moved on to bigger and better things: trying to deny parents of autism-stricken children the right to sue the pharmaceutical companies who poisoned them.

Left : Thimerosal/autism :: Right : creationism
posted by Slithy_Tove at 8:26 AM on June 16, 2005


Just this morning:
Frist, R-Tenn., said he never made his own diagnosis but did argue there wasn't enough information about Schiavo's condition to justify allowing her husband to remove her feeding tube against her parents' wishes.

"I raised the question, 'Is she in a persistent vegetative state or not?' I never made the diagnosis, never said that she was not. I did say that certain tests should be performed to determine that before starving her to death," Frist said in the interview.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:02 AM on June 16, 2005


Yay. Shall we go pull the plug on all those poor suffering brain dead patients now? They have no hope of recovery after all. Think of how much medical bills the country will save!
posted by slf at 10:19 AM on June 16, 2005


terri speaks (self link, bad taste)
posted by iamck at 10:35 AM on June 16, 2005


slf writes "all those poor suffering brain dead patients now? They have no hope of recovery after all."

Yes, because this autopsy was conducted on "all those poor suffering brain dead" people and not just on one single person. Maroon.

I will avoid speculating what slf stands for because I think I have a pretty good idea.
posted by terrapin at 10:37 AM on June 16, 2005


bevets, did you just quote Collateral? Did you actually watch an R-rated movie, or just read about it on CapAlert?
posted by iron chef morimoto at 10:48 AM on June 16, 2005


NYT:
Representative Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, said that in his five years in office, he saw Congress do its "worst job communicating" during the Schiavo episode.
Au contraire, their true colors were shining through.
posted by grouse at 10:54 AM on June 16, 2005


Bevets has a website? The Onion has competition.
posted by iamck at 11:17 AM on June 16, 2005


"If a human is in a vegatative state, then how can we say that she's suffering? "
I'd add to fenriq's comment only a quote from the Roman poet Terence: 'I am a man, and whatever concerns humanity is of interest to me.'
Whether Schiavo is truly in actual pain is not the largest issue. She is human and the damage done to her humanity in the name of political interest causes damage to us all. That is suffering.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:28 AM on June 16, 2005


Bevets, wow, lots of random quotes all completely out of context. I'm convinced! Let's dig her carcass up and hook it back up to the machines. Sure, she's a little ripe now but if we love her enough, it'll be okay.
posted by fenriq at 11:31 AM on June 16, 2005


some factchecking since the Washington Post didn't do it, on Frist lying about what he said in March.--
Majority Leader Bill Frist this morning on the Today Show:
LAUER: But when you stood on the floor and you said, She does respond, are you at all worried that you led some senators…
FRIST: I never said, She responded. I said I reviewed the court videotapes – the same ones the other doctors reviewed – and I questioned, Is her diagnosis correct?

Frist on Senate Floor, 3/17/05:
I have looked at the video footage. Based on the footage provided to me, which was part of the facts of the case, she does respond.

More from Frist, 3/17/05:
She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli…

posted by amberglow at 12:43 PM on June 16, 2005


Bevets: If God wanted her to live, why didn't he save her?
posted by klangklangston at 2:14 PM on June 16, 2005


If God wanted her to live, why didn't he save her?

After all, God can work miracles!
posted by ericb at 2:32 PM on June 16, 2005


To me, this is NewsFilter, but of the necessary variety. The original thread(s) is/are gone, but due to recent events, there is the possibility for civil discussion. It's worth talking about, since this is a follow-up to what was a largely-debated topic in the US with occasional reasonable discussion on MeFi.

There's a lot of backpedaling from all sides at this point in regard to the Schaivo case, and I think there's room to evaluate it without a lot of finger pointing and calls of hypocrisy. How so many politicians and otherwise reasonable people could drop much of their rationality to concentrate so much attention on a case that (in my opinion) could have been easily decided by the courts of Florida is something I've been wondering for quite some time. It was polarizing to see which perspective was readily adopted by those debating the issue -- the parents, the husband, the patient, or in some bizarre cases, God.

I've enjoyed some contributions to other threads from Alex, Witty, and dios. I've enjoyed very little from any of them in this thread. shmegegge may be right -- this thread was doomed from the start. Not because it's not worthy of discussion, but because even those in congress could stay on-point, and today I realize that MeFi's rhetoric on this issue is no better.
posted by mikeh at 2:34 PM on June 16, 2005


"I think it will be seen at some point as a turning point in America about what's going on with the Republican Party - namely that you have this fanatical party willing to impose its own views on people, and frankly, powerful enough to do it," said Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, who was among the most vocal critics of the Schiavo bill. "This is particularly a problem for Dr. Frist. This is a direct refutation of his TV diagnosis." [New York Times | June 16, 2005]
posted by ericb at 2:36 PM on June 16, 2005


mikeh - well said!
posted by ericb at 2:38 PM on June 16, 2005


In related news:

Brain-dead woman kept alive for baby
Cancer patient on respirator for survival of 21-week-old fetus . [The Associated Press | June 16, 2005].
posted by ericb at 2:39 PM on June 16, 2005


NYT on Jeb's new investigation of the husband: ...And so it was heartbreaking yesterday to see Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida thrust himself back into this tragedy just two days after the results of Ms. Schiavo's autopsy showed that her condition had been beyond hope and beyond therapy, that she most likely had been in a persistent vegetative state and that her relatives' allegations that she had been abused by her husband were false. ...
For most of the nation, that news provided closure on a wrenching episode. But not for Mr. Bush, who asked a state prosecutor to investigate Michael Schiavo, Ms. Schiavo's husband. ... To seek an investigation now seems tactical, an attempt to deflect attention from the autopsy report.
Of all the politicians who tragically failed to understand and respect the sanctity and privacy of family life in this case, only Mr. Bush seems determined to save face by disturbing the family's peace further and berating those who had been saying all along that he was going down a terrible road. ...

posted by amberglow at 7:45 AM on June 18, 2005


Oh good christ.

Someone needs to put the Bush family out of America's misery.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:08 AM on June 18, 2005


Where's The Apology? (E.J.Dionne/WaPo)-- We are entitled to our moral, ethical and philosophical commitments. We are not entitled to our own facts.
So why is this basic rule of argument often ignored by politicians whose certainty about their righteousness convinces them that they can say absolutely anything to further their causes?
The autopsy in the Terri Schiavo case provides a rare moment of political accountability. We should not "move on," as Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist suggested. No, we cannot move on until those politicians who felt entitled to make up facts and toss around unwarranted conclusions about Schiavo's condition take responsibility for what they said -- and apologize. ...

posted by amberglow at 1:09 PM on June 18, 2005


Joan Didion on Terri Schiavo
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:07 AM on June 19, 2005


Highbrow Hentoff: Didion, Schiavo, and bulimia (Majikthise)
posted by amberglow at 8:26 AM on June 19, 2005


... Michael Schiavo -- who said he promised his wife he would not keep her alive artificially -- also listed Feb. 25, 1990, as the date his wife "Departed this Earth."

On that date, Schiavo collapsed and fell into what most doctors said was an irreversible vegetative state.

Schiavo actually died March 31, nearly two weeks after her feeding tube was removed by court order. The grave marker lists that date as when Schiavo was "at peace."...

posted by amberglow at 6:35 PM on June 21, 2005


Can we declare a moratorium on Schiavo news now? The lady is long dead and now buried. The asshats are going to continue to pester the husband, but that's neither here nor there. Just remember who did what once election time rolls around again, and punish those asshole politicians that were involved in the clusterfuck.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:31 PM on June 21, 2005


...once election time rolls around again, and punish those asshole politicians that were involved in the clusterfuck.

speaking of that, guess who's throwing his hat in the ring?
posted by amberglow at 9:34 PM on June 22, 2005


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