Bullying
June 22, 2005 5:20 AM Subscribe
Who Pagan Bullies Are and What Makes Them Tick "Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc)."
It gets quite pagan further down the page. Actually it was quite useful to read this, as I've been pondering a person who systematically stinks up a forum in another place, and has done for years, and I've been wondering about their psychology. So there's a lot of interesting stuff for me there, thanks.
I suspect other mileages will vary considerably.
posted by Grangousier at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2005
I suspect other mileages will vary considerably.
posted by Grangousier at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2005
What an odd page. It looks like nothing more than a description of bullies and their techniques, targeted towards people involved in pagan communities. I liked the list of examples down at the end, though-- it includes Saruman, Q, Zaphod Beeblebrox and Mr. Howell.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:46 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:46 AM on June 22, 2005
More interestingly: is George Costanza a narcissist?
posted by NekulturnY at 7:03 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by NekulturnY at 7:03 AM on June 22, 2005
IMO Pagans are deluded as the rest of 'em, but its nice to see they are taking action against the bullies in their ranks... :D
posted by Dio at 7:28 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by Dio at 7:28 AM on June 22, 2005
george costanza does not actually exist.
I can't see how that can be right: I see him on my television screen almost every week (thank you for Season 4 on DVD, dear studios).
posted by NekulturnY at 7:40 AM on June 22, 2005
I can't see how that can be right: I see him on my television screen almost every week (thank you for Season 4 on DVD, dear studios).
posted by NekulturnY at 7:40 AM on June 22, 2005
This webpage highlights one of the reasons why I hate the internet.
People who get into paganism tend to be people who have grown so dissatisfied with their lives that they've decided to construct their own fantasy world. The internet exacerbates this problem by allowing people with similar disturbances to congregate and turn a slight disturbance into a full-blown obsession. Groups similar to internet pagans include furries, otherkin, incest fetishists, and the like. Naturally, when their obsessions are pointed out as being disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like, they resort childhood name-calling, labelling their accusers as bullies.
The reason this webpage exists is because a feedback loop has developed in which people are calling pagans crazy fucks, but pagans cannot believe that they are crazy fucks, so logically the people who are calling them that are bullies.
posted by Veritron at 8:47 AM on June 22, 2005
People who get into paganism tend to be people who have grown so dissatisfied with their lives that they've decided to construct their own fantasy world. The internet exacerbates this problem by allowing people with similar disturbances to congregate and turn a slight disturbance into a full-blown obsession. Groups similar to internet pagans include furries, otherkin, incest fetishists, and the like. Naturally, when their obsessions are pointed out as being disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like, they resort childhood name-calling, labelling their accusers as bullies.
The reason this webpage exists is because a feedback loop has developed in which people are calling pagans crazy fucks, but pagans cannot believe that they are crazy fucks, so logically the people who are calling them that are bullies.
posted by Veritron at 8:47 AM on June 22, 2005
Groups similar to internet pagans include furries, otherkin, incest fetishists, and the like.
You left out political bloggers, perhaps the largest and fastest growing group of internet pervs.
posted by eatitlive at 9:03 AM on June 22, 2005
You left out political bloggers, perhaps the largest and fastest growing group of internet pervs.
posted by eatitlive at 9:03 AM on June 22, 2005
The thing is, bullying is astonishingly prevalent within the neo-Pagan community in general. Most of it falls under the heading of passive-aggressive attention seekers--as the article pointed out, the sort of people who can dance around a fire all night, but suddenly have an attack of the vapours when someone asks them to actually, y'know, do something. Then there's the High Lord Dragonsbane Doomslayer (But Really, I Like Kittens And Prancing Through Meadows) and Lady Cleopatra Guinevere Moondancer Fairybottom (who generally resembles either an old potato in a shapeless burlap sack, or a whip-thin OH MY GOTH girl) contingent, who have All Sorts Of Ancient Traditional Secrets that we made up when we were stoned last week that are Too Dangerous For The Uninitiated To Know. They're just tons of fun to deal with; if they're not in the centre of attention at all times, all hell breaks loose.
Then there are what I call the SV's. The Sighing Victims. You know they type... they show up in all walks of life, but seem to cluster mainly around neo-Paganism, Ren Faires, the SCA, and bad goth clubs. (Okay, so there's a lot of crossover in those groups...) These are the (mostly) women who sit in corners obviously upset about something, but respond with "*heavy sigh* no no, everything's just fine. *sigh* *sighsighsighwhythefuckaren'tyoustillaskingmewhat'swrong?*" I want to kick those people in the head more than any others. At least you can laugh at Lord and Lady Thundermugs, and volunteer the suddenly afflicted people to jobs you know they hate. Actually, that's my favourite. They get all huffy, and slam things around, and then very suddenly realize that people have seen them acting in exactly the way they don't want to be seen. Good for deflating egos (and, of course, causing all sorts of ugly rumours to be generated by the aggrieved victim. I still occasionally hear rumours about my alleged sluttiness in the neo-Pagan community here years ago. All I have to say is, gee, I wish I'd been having that much sex.)
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
Then there are what I call the SV's. The Sighing Victims. You know they type... they show up in all walks of life, but seem to cluster mainly around neo-Paganism, Ren Faires, the SCA, and bad goth clubs. (Okay, so there's a lot of crossover in those groups...) These are the (mostly) women who sit in corners obviously upset about something, but respond with "*heavy sigh* no no, everything's just fine. *sigh* *sighsighsighwhythefuckaren'tyoustillaskingmewhat'swrong?*" I want to kick those people in the head more than any others. At least you can laugh at Lord and Lady Thundermugs, and volunteer the suddenly afflicted people to jobs you know they hate. Actually, that's my favourite. They get all huffy, and slam things around, and then very suddenly realize that people have seen them acting in exactly the way they don't want to be seen. Good for deflating egos (and, of course, causing all sorts of ugly rumours to be generated by the aggrieved victim. I still occasionally hear rumours about my alleged sluttiness in the neo-Pagan community here years ago. All I have to say is, gee, I wish I'd been having that much sex.)
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2005 [1 favorite]
Sorry, missed it on preview... Veritron, would you then say that followers of all religions are crazy fucks? I have broadly neo-Pagan religious beliefs, a good friend of mine has broadly Christian beliefs. Is he sane because his religion has been around longer?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:31 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:31 AM on June 22, 2005
Oh, no! No Basil Fawlty on the bullies list? He's my favorite bully.
posted by taz at 9:55 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by taz at 9:55 AM on June 22, 2005
I think you'll find Paganism has been around longer than Christianity, or indeed any Abrahamic religion. European Pagan Religions were more than likely responsible for Christianity as we know it. Much of Christianity is assimilation of Pagan rituals, or reaction against Pagan dogma.
I am assuming Veritron is just trying to be funny. Well, hoping actually.
posted by asok at 9:59 AM on June 22, 2005
I am assuming Veritron is just trying to be funny. Well, hoping actually.
posted by asok at 9:59 AM on June 22, 2005
People who get into [Christianity] tend to be people who have grown so dissatisfied with their lives that they've decided to construct their own fantasy world.
(brackets mine.)
although the site is directed to pagans, it would seem to me that it is just as applicable and relevant to any group. bullies abound in our world. welcome to earth.
posted by RedEmma at 10:02 AM on June 22, 2005
(brackets mine.)
although the site is directed to pagans, it would seem to me that it is just as applicable and relevant to any group. bullies abound in our world. welcome to earth.
posted by RedEmma at 10:02 AM on June 22, 2005
I hate human beings as much as the rest of you, but man, I don't find Pagans to be anything out of the ordinary. Veritron and dirtynumbangelboy's comments seem crazy to me. There are wacko fantasyland D&D pagans, for sure, but I've known many more who aren't much different than your avg mostly-secular jew/christian/buddhist/hindu.
posted by Marquis at 10:04 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by Marquis at 10:04 AM on June 22, 2005
dirtynumbangelboy writes "there's the High Lord Dragonsbane Doomslayer (But Really, I Like Kittens And Prancing Through Meadows) and Lady Cleopatra Guinevere Moondancer Fairybottom (who generally resembles either an old potato in a shapeless burlap sack, or a whip-thin OH MY GOTH girl) contingent, who have All Sorts Of Ancient Traditional Secrets that we made up when we were stoned last week that are Too Dangerous For The Uninitiated To Know. They're just tons of fun to deal with; if they're not in the centre of attention at all times, all hell breaks loose."
Target acquired. Target destroyed.
posted by orthogonality at 10:15 AM on June 22, 2005
Target acquired. Target destroyed.
posted by orthogonality at 10:15 AM on June 22, 2005
Veritron, you seemed to read the page as a screed against non-pagans bullying pagans. Having some experience among the pagan community (I like the expression "lapsed pagan" in the same way that some are "lapsed Catholic"), I think the real concern of the author was about pagans bullying other pagans.
I agree with RedEmma that bullying can happen in any group. But I also think that pagans are more susceptible to bullying than some others. Because pagans tend to run in small, insular groups that seek to push boundaries and defy inhibitions, bullying can quickly take root. And I regret to say that I also agree with dirtynumbetc.: Pagans draw a higher than usual proportion of those with self-esteem issues who may be especially susceptible to bullying or being bullied.
posted by Scooter at 10:29 AM on June 22, 2005
I agree with RedEmma that bullying can happen in any group. But I also think that pagans are more susceptible to bullying than some others. Because pagans tend to run in small, insular groups that seek to push boundaries and defy inhibitions, bullying can quickly take root. And I regret to say that I also agree with dirtynumbetc.: Pagans draw a higher than usual proportion of those with self-esteem issues who may be especially susceptible to bullying or being bullied.
posted by Scooter at 10:29 AM on June 22, 2005
Asok, Paganism was indeed around long before the Abrahamic religions. However, what's practiced today likely bears almost no resemblance to actual practices of thousands of years ago. Thus, neo-Pagan.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:40 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:40 AM on June 22, 2005
"I'm a Pagan."
"Indeed. And to which of the Elders do you give tribute?"
"Huh? Oh, ah, it's really just a female empowerment thing."
(poor man's misquote from a recent book. may have been another Neil Gaiman travesty in which case I am probably repressing the title)
posted by dreamsign at 10:49 AM on June 22, 2005
"Indeed. And to which of the Elders do you give tribute?"
"Huh? Oh, ah, it's really just a female empowerment thing."
(poor man's misquote from a recent book. may have been another Neil Gaiman travesty in which case I am probably repressing the title)
posted by dreamsign at 10:49 AM on June 22, 2005
"May have been another Neil Gaiman travesty..."You're quoting from American Gods, which is a very entertaining read. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
posted by nlindstrom at 11:07 AM on June 22, 2005
What about David Brent? Is he a narcissist and/or a bully as well as being a chilled-out entertainer?
Oh, and a word about paganism: does anybody worship the Greco-Roman Gods anymore? Just wondering, because in my estimation they must feel a little left-out...
posted by ob at 11:17 AM on June 22, 2005
Oh, and a word about paganism: does anybody worship the Greco-Roman Gods anymore? Just wondering, because in my estimation they must feel a little left-out...
posted by ob at 11:17 AM on June 22, 2005
Dreamsign -- Probably a quote from "American Gods" (indeed a Neil Gaiman book) where Mr. Wednesday is talking to a Goddess that was saying that with the rise of Paganism, her power is coming back. He asked that question to a waitress to prove to the goddess that he knew she was full of shit.
On preview, nlindstrom
posted by KirTakat at 11:18 AM on June 22, 2005
On preview, nlindstrom
posted by KirTakat at 11:18 AM on June 22, 2005
I know of a few groups that focus on the Greco-Roman pantheons. There's the Minoan Brotherhood, a group of gay male neo-pagans who practice sex magick (!). Uhmm.. I believe the Aurum Solis (a magickal fraternity similar to the Golden Dawn or the OTO) focuses on the Greek pantheon. The only Greek gods that tend to get much notice in most neo-Pagan groups, from what I've seen, are goddesses: Demeter, Artemis, Hecate, Persephone.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:23 AM on June 22, 2005
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:23 AM on June 22, 2005
Naturally, when their obsessions are pointed out as being disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like, they resort childhood name-calling, labelling their accusers as bullies.
Heh. Uh huh? That's a pretty thorough knowledge of these groups you must have. You must know all kinds of psychology too, right?
Freaks tend to gravitate towards the freaky, fringe groups. That can mean that those groups collect people who aren't exactly from the top of the social ladder. [For instance, it can attract bullies eager to hit an easy target -- sound familiar? -- which is what the linked page is about]. It can result in freaky displays. However, it also means that many of the most interesting people end up there, believe it or not. I got no compulsion to bash any group, because generalisations are stupid. For every whining, ridiculous self-proclaimed Dragon Spirit, there's the intelligent, original, skilled awesome person. You think different? You haven't got enough data to say. All I do is go find the interesting people with something new to offer me. Guess where they tend to be.. ? Not in the center of societal norms, that's for sure.
[I ain't admitting nothin' here.. heaven forbid]
posted by Drexen at 12:29 PM on June 22, 2005
Heh. Uh huh? That's a pretty thorough knowledge of these groups you must have. You must know all kinds of psychology too, right?
Freaks tend to gravitate towards the freaky, fringe groups. That can mean that those groups collect people who aren't exactly from the top of the social ladder. [For instance, it can attract bullies eager to hit an easy target -- sound familiar? -- which is what the linked page is about]. It can result in freaky displays. However, it also means that many of the most interesting people end up there, believe it or not. I got no compulsion to bash any group, because generalisations are stupid. For every whining, ridiculous self-proclaimed Dragon Spirit, there's the intelligent, original, skilled awesome person. You think different? You haven't got enough data to say. All I do is go find the interesting people with something new to offer me. Guess where they tend to be.. ? Not in the center of societal norms, that's for sure.
[I ain't admitting nothin' here.. heaven forbid]
posted by Drexen at 12:29 PM on June 22, 2005
dirtynumbangelboy writes "what's practiced today likely bears almost no resemblance to actual practices of thousands of years ago."
I am aware of this fact, it was a semantic point I suppose. Not disimilar to the various Christian sects in many ways.
posted by asok at 12:33 PM on June 22, 2005
I am aware of this fact, it was a semantic point I suppose. Not disimilar to the various Christian sects in many ways.
posted by asok at 12:33 PM on June 22, 2005
"Naturally, when their obsessions are pointed out as being disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like, they resort childhood name-calling, labelling their accusers as bullies."
Er, well, there's also the point that their obsessions being pointed out as disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like is often done via childhood name calling and bullying.
The way you phrase it is vaguely like saying "When little children are punched in the head by bigger children just for the hell of it, they resort to childhood name-calling, labelling people who strike them as bullies". I'm hoping it was just a phrasing issue.
posted by Bugbread at 12:47 PM on June 22, 2005
Er, well, there's also the point that their obsessions being pointed out as disgusting / symptomatic of wish fulfillment and the like is often done via childhood name calling and bullying.
The way you phrase it is vaguely like saying "When little children are punched in the head by bigger children just for the hell of it, they resort to childhood name-calling, labelling people who strike them as bullies". I'm hoping it was just a phrasing issue.
posted by Bugbread at 12:47 PM on June 22, 2005
I love Greek myths too but I always assumed they were analogies.
posted by inksyndicate at 3:02 PM on June 22, 2005
posted by inksyndicate at 3:02 PM on June 22, 2005
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But, I don't quite get it. I was able to load the first page....and it's about....what? Bullies? I think everyone knows what a bully is. And I didn't see anything pagan-specific on that page, other than the word "pagan" in the title.
posted by Floach at 5:30 AM on June 22, 2005