They don't want your money...they want you.
July 2, 2005 7:39 AM Subscribe
It was 20 years ago today...
Bob Geldof just introduced 'billionaire philanthropist' Bill Gates onto the Hyde Park stage, and he then introduced Dido... Can Live8 overcome the millstone of worthiness, and make a real diiference in the way international trade operates? Can we really make poverty history? Post any and all Live8 comments, links and counterpoints - apparently, it's all about the awareness, man...
Bob Geldof just introduced 'billionaire philanthropist' Bill Gates onto the Hyde Park stage, and he then introduced Dido... Can Live8 overcome the millstone of worthiness, and make a real diiference in the way international trade operates? Can we really make poverty history? Post any and all Live8 comments, links and counterpoints - apparently, it's all about the awareness, man...
Can we really make poverty history?
Depends on what you consider "poverty". The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit, so that kind of poverty will never go away.
If you're thinking of starving Africans, I highly doubt that 8 white men, none of whom have had a hungry day in their lives, give enough of a fuck to actually do anything of use other than shoving another million dollars at a corrupt regime or forgiving debt that was forced upon the impoverished country by idiotic World Bank schemes.
posted by cmonkey at 7:56 AM on July 2, 2005
Depends on what you consider "poverty". The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit, so that kind of poverty will never go away.
If you're thinking of starving Africans, I highly doubt that 8 white men, none of whom have had a hungry day in their lives, give enough of a fuck to actually do anything of use other than shoving another million dollars at a corrupt regime or forgiving debt that was forced upon the impoverished country by idiotic World Bank schemes.
posted by cmonkey at 7:56 AM on July 2, 2005
I just wish we could have made poverty history without having to put up with Dido. And is it just me or does that VIP area at the front seem overly large and not really in the spirit of things?
posted by ciderwoman at 7:56 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by ciderwoman at 7:56 AM on July 2, 2005
You can write off Zimbabwe's debt, but it won't do a damn thing to stop Robert Mugabe (self-described "Hitler of Africa") from basically razing the houses of his detractors and starving them to death -- man, woman and child all.
It's anyone's guess as to whether the G8 will forgive a lot of debt, but it's only a part of the equation.
posted by clevershark at 8:01 AM on July 2, 2005
It's anyone's guess as to whether the G8 will forgive a lot of debt, but it's only a part of the equation.
posted by clevershark at 8:01 AM on July 2, 2005
Oh, and lest I should be accused of "Godwinning" this thread -- most people have nary a clue what Godwin actually said -- here's a State Department reference of the speech in which Mugabe describes himself as 'a black Hitler times ten'.
posted by clevershark at 8:03 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by clevershark at 8:03 AM on July 2, 2005
Just how poor would one have to be to make poverty history?
posted by flarbuse at 8:05 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by flarbuse at 8:05 AM on July 2, 2005
The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit, so that kind of poverty will never go away.
No, it doesn't. The vast majority of trade is between developed nations. This includes most raw materials. Poor people are a lousy market. The tragedy of Africa is exactly that many parts are not a part of the global economic system--mostly because of bad government in the poor nations. But this is an argument we have had, oh, about a thousand times before here on the blue...
Here is a clever article by Kenny Farquharson in which he contemplates attending the Make Poverty History march with a sign that reads “No to Poverty! Yes to Capitalism! Yes to Globalisation!”
posted by LarryC at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2005
No, it doesn't. The vast majority of trade is between developed nations. This includes most raw materials. Poor people are a lousy market. The tragedy of Africa is exactly that many parts are not a part of the global economic system--mostly because of bad government in the poor nations. But this is an argument we have had, oh, about a thousand times before here on the blue...
Here is a clever article by Kenny Farquharson in which he contemplates attending the Make Poverty History march with a sign that reads “No to Poverty! Yes to Capitalism! Yes to Globalisation!”
posted by LarryC at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2005
I'd love to be a fly on the wall if John Hinderaker of Powerlineblog & John Aravosis of Americablog get to have a wee chat at the G8 in Edinbirgh. Will they confine their discourse to Debt, aid, trade and Africa? Or will their opinions on Gannon/DSM/Bush destroy their fragile coalition of opposites?
OK, London's just had a great set from REm, and now it's Kofi Annan.
posted by dash_slot- at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2005
OK, London's just had a great set from REm, and now it's Kofi Annan.
posted by dash_slot- at 8:30 AM on July 2, 2005
> The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit,
So Live 8 is part of the global capitalist exploitation system, yes? Seems the wristband is made in Chinese slave-labor sweatshops. And helps promote Tommy Hilfiger, of all outfits.
‘When you buy this band you promise me you will do everything you can to get on the road to Edinburgh and join us in changing the world. This rubber band is your solemn word, you are now part of Live8, well done!’ - Bob Geldorf.
The wristbands feature the standard Make Poverty History logo with the Live8 logo, but are also stamped with the logos of six global fashions brands including the controversial Hilfiger Denim, owned by Tommy Hilfiger Corporation. According to Stephen Coats, Executive Director of the Chicago-based US/Labor Education in the Americas Project that monitors and supports the basic rights of workers in Latin America, Hilfiger’s labour record falls short of minimum standards: ‘In our experience, Tommy Hilfiger is at the bottom of the list in demonstrating refusal to accept responsibility for the way workers are treated.’
posted by jfuller at 8:37 AM on July 2, 2005
So Live 8 is part of the global capitalist exploitation system, yes? Seems the wristband is made in Chinese slave-labor sweatshops. And helps promote Tommy Hilfiger, of all outfits.
‘When you buy this band you promise me you will do everything you can to get on the road to Edinburgh and join us in changing the world. This rubber band is your solemn word, you are now part of Live8, well done!’ - Bob Geldorf.
The wristbands feature the standard Make Poverty History logo with the Live8 logo, but are also stamped with the logos of six global fashions brands including the controversial Hilfiger Denim, owned by Tommy Hilfiger Corporation. According to Stephen Coats, Executive Director of the Chicago-based US/Labor Education in the Americas Project that monitors and supports the basic rights of workers in Latin America, Hilfiger’s labour record falls short of minimum standards: ‘In our experience, Tommy Hilfiger is at the bottom of the list in demonstrating refusal to accept responsibility for the way workers are treated.’
posted by jfuller at 8:37 AM on July 2, 2005
The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit...
Don't you mean the fascist global capitalist system?
posted by Falconetti at 8:46 AM on July 2, 2005
Don't you mean the fascist global capitalist system?
posted by Falconetti at 8:46 AM on July 2, 2005
And is it just me or does that VIP area at the front seem overly large and not really in the spirit of things?
It's not just you
posted by devon at 8:54 AM on July 2, 2005
It's not just you
posted by devon at 8:54 AM on July 2, 2005
I was quite distressed to see that Geldof has bought into the administration's "fuzzy math" with regards to Africa.
posted by jrossi4r at 8:56 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by jrossi4r at 8:56 AM on July 2, 2005
I'm trying to find a list of the 10 successful bloggers who got backstage passes to the London & Philly gigs, anyone got a link to the list?
posted by dash_slot- at 8:56 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by dash_slot- at 8:56 AM on July 2, 2005
Wow, a lot of commie talk in this thread! I knew Mefi was a breeding ground for leftists, but reds???
posted by jonson at 8:59 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by jonson at 8:59 AM on July 2, 2005
The Bono & Bob show is mostly about themselves. The first LiveAid was at least about collecting money. This one is only about 'awareness'. Crap.
The money is not the problem, not even the food. It's about corrupt poltics and it's hold on distribution and infrastructur.
A 50cent bullet would kill such a pest like Robert Mugabe. African have to learn democracy first and how to rule themselves. As long as they 'vote' or fight for corrupt leaders that preach only selfish tribalism most 'nations' will stay chaotic and hungry. As long as african politician say that HIV is not the problem or it say it's not the reason for AIDS how can you effectivly help and educate people?
The african nations are not dedicated enough to fight corrupt leaders among themselves or even simply speak out against them. Or even remove them.
Plus Bob & Bono still promote the 'hungry unable nigger' image. Africa is first of all a huge continent with very different nations on it. Some areas are as modern as any place on earth.
About 'give your voice to Africa' - especially Tony Blair is very keen to make Africa his legacy. Bastard. All industrial countries have pumped billions into Africa - and it even declined the last twenty years. Once again billion of dollars have been poored into the continent - and it didn't help.
It's not the wests job to build nations or get Africa out of poverty - the Africans have to do the job. What we 'rich people' should do is to make trade easier and help to make the rule of law and democracy rock solid. The rich countries need to stop the stupid wars like in Darfur or Rwanda. These are the real killers.
Africa is in many places addicted to outside support - this is crap. We need to stop the addiction.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:07 AM on July 2, 2005
The money is not the problem, not even the food. It's about corrupt poltics and it's hold on distribution and infrastructur.
A 50cent bullet would kill such a pest like Robert Mugabe. African have to learn democracy first and how to rule themselves. As long as they 'vote' or fight for corrupt leaders that preach only selfish tribalism most 'nations' will stay chaotic and hungry. As long as african politician say that HIV is not the problem or it say it's not the reason for AIDS how can you effectivly help and educate people?
The african nations are not dedicated enough to fight corrupt leaders among themselves or even simply speak out against them. Or even remove them.
Plus Bob & Bono still promote the 'hungry unable nigger' image. Africa is first of all a huge continent with very different nations on it. Some areas are as modern as any place on earth.
About 'give your voice to Africa' - especially Tony Blair is very keen to make Africa his legacy. Bastard. All industrial countries have pumped billions into Africa - and it even declined the last twenty years. Once again billion of dollars have been poored into the continent - and it didn't help.
It's not the wests job to build nations or get Africa out of poverty - the Africans have to do the job. What we 'rich people' should do is to make trade easier and help to make the rule of law and democracy rock solid. The rich countries need to stop the stupid wars like in Darfur or Rwanda. These are the real killers.
Africa is in many places addicted to outside support - this is crap. We need to stop the addiction.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:07 AM on July 2, 2005
London, Philadelphia, Tokyo, Barrie (Canada), Joburg, Paris, Berlin, Moscow and, er, Cornwall.
You forgot Rome ;) Heading to the Circo Massimo now. I still want to know how we ended up with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw. Not my cup of pop-country tea, but I'm hoping Duran Duran makes up for them.
posted by romakimmy at 9:08 AM on July 2, 2005
You forgot Rome ;) Heading to the Circo Massimo now. I still want to know how we ended up with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw. Not my cup of pop-country tea, but I'm hoping Duran Duran makes up for them.
posted by romakimmy at 9:08 AM on July 2, 2005
I knew Mefi was a breeding ground for leftists, but reds???
If these people could breed, they'd be out making whoopee (hehehe) all day instead of bantering on MeFi.
/me goes to post on other MeFi threads cuz, well, yeah...
posted by AspectRatio at 9:08 AM on July 2, 2005
If these people could breed, they'd be out making whoopee (hehehe) all day instead of bantering on MeFi.
/me goes to post on other MeFi threads cuz, well, yeah...
posted by AspectRatio at 9:08 AM on July 2, 2005
> I knew Mefi was a breeding ground for leftists, but reds?
Heh. That's me all right, Republican Party Reptile but with extra commie-flavor goodness. I put red pepper on my whale steaks.
posted by jfuller at 9:17 AM on July 2, 2005
Heh. That's me all right, Republican Party Reptile but with extra commie-flavor goodness. I put red pepper on my whale steaks.
posted by jfuller at 9:17 AM on July 2, 2005
"The global capitalist system needs impoverished workers to abuse and exploit, so that kind of poverty will never go away."
How about if we replace the exploited and abused workers with robots?
posted by spazzm at 9:18 AM on July 2, 2005
How about if we replace the exploited and abused workers with robots?
posted by spazzm at 9:18 AM on July 2, 2005
"...a pest like Robert Mugabe. African have to learn democracy first and how to rule themselves. As long as they 'vote' or fight for corrupt leaders that preach only selfish tribalism most 'nations' will stay chaotic and hungry."
Wow. You do realise that elections can be stolen in any country, right? Your cite of Mugabe, followed by trite and ill-informed comment about Zimbabwe, where the dictator recently defrauded his people and continues to murder his opponents, says a great deal.
The lack of charity fundraising, and the focus on political pressure, is what Live8 is all about. The linking of aid, trade and political reform in Africa is what the process is all about. What you bitterly decry is what Geldof et al want. Read a little more about the principles.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:23 AM on July 2, 2005
Wow. You do realise that elections can be stolen in any country, right? Your cite of Mugabe, followed by trite and ill-informed comment about Zimbabwe, where the dictator recently defrauded his people and continues to murder his opponents, says a great deal.
The lack of charity fundraising, and the focus on political pressure, is what Live8 is all about. The linking of aid, trade and political reform in Africa is what the process is all about. What you bitterly decry is what Geldof et al want. Read a little more about the principles.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:23 AM on July 2, 2005
I knew Mefi was a breeding ground for leftists, but reds???
if only commies care about africans, then sign me up comrade!
posted by mr.marx at 9:25 AM on July 2, 2005
if only commies care about africans, then sign me up comrade!
posted by mr.marx at 9:25 AM on July 2, 2005
I still want to know how we ended up with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw.
Yeah, well, we here in Philly got Toby freakin' Keith. Trade ya.
posted by jrossi4r at 9:30 AM on July 2, 2005
Yeah, well, we here in Philly got Toby freakin' Keith. Trade ya.
posted by jrossi4r at 9:30 AM on July 2, 2005
> if only commies care about africans, then sign me up comrade!
Tovarisch! But one somehow suspects that "mr.marx" did not just now hook up with the comrades.
posted by jfuller at 9:39 AM on July 2, 2005
Tovarisch! But one somehow suspects that "mr.marx" did not just now hook up with the comrades.
posted by jfuller at 9:39 AM on July 2, 2005
Wow, a lot of commie talk in this thread! I knew Mefi was a breeding ground for leftists, but reds???
Ahh... thank you for pointing out the 2 key differences between the left and the right.
The left believes that we're all in this together. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
The left believes we have to do *something* about poverty and misery. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
This whole conservative movement in the US is simply the richest people in the world deciding to be selfish for a while after a couple of decades of trying to give a shit about humanity.
posted by scarabic at 9:43 AM on July 2, 2005
Ahh... thank you for pointing out the 2 key differences between the left and the right.
The left believes that we're all in this together. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
The left believes we have to do *something* about poverty and misery. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
This whole conservative movement in the US is simply the richest people in the world deciding to be selfish for a while after a couple of decades of trying to give a shit about humanity.
posted by scarabic at 9:43 AM on July 2, 2005
Gareth Stedman Jones on Live 8, Tom Paine and Condorcet.
posted by TimothyMason at 9:44 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by TimothyMason at 9:44 AM on July 2, 2005
Don't you mean the fascist global capitalist system?
No, no I don't.
Capitalism is a food chain, and there will always be someone living in poverty at the very bottom. And no amount of touchy-feely websites or free concerts will change that. Hence my prior distinction between run of the mill poverty that few seem to care about, and the "extreme" poverty that the G8 is being urged to "deal with".
posted by cmonkey at 9:47 AM on July 2, 2005
No, no I don't.
Capitalism is a food chain, and there will always be someone living in poverty at the very bottom. And no amount of touchy-feely websites or free concerts will change that. Hence my prior distinction between run of the mill poverty that few seem to care about, and the "extreme" poverty that the G8 is being urged to "deal with".
posted by cmonkey at 9:47 AM on July 2, 2005
The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
The left believes we have to do *something* about poverty and misery. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
John Fielden, Tory Radical.
BTW, I'm red (on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sunday evenings) but youcan't blame Mefi for that.
posted by TimothyMason at 9:54 AM on July 2, 2005
The left believes we have to do *something* about poverty and misery. The right will tell you to fuck yourself if you've got problems.
John Fielden, Tory Radical.
BTW, I'm red (on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sunday evenings) but youcan't blame Mefi for that.
posted by TimothyMason at 9:54 AM on July 2, 2005
I can't believe anybody is actually AT the one in Barrie. What a horrendous lineup. Oh, but Celine and Bryan Adams are there! Woooo. And Deep Purple! And... Randy Bachman! The collective age at the concert must be around 60, I would hate to try and get out of that parking lot. Caddies and Buicks everywhere!
posted by antifuse at 9:58 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by antifuse at 9:58 AM on July 2, 2005
First, I apologize for my verbosity...
African have to learn democracy first and how to rule themselves. As long as they 'vote' or fight for corrupt leaders that preach only selfish tribalism most 'nations' will stay chaotic and hungry. As long as african politician say that HIV is not the problem or it say it's not the reason for AIDS how can you effectivly help and educate people?
Whoah homodigitalis. I’m afraid I simply have to respond to your comment. There is a lot of history here that is missing in your evaluation of the situation. We in the North need to remember the history of colonialism that oppressed and exploited many of the countries we call “developing” or “the South” today. The colonial powers left many of their colonies politically unstable and in turmoil often after having successfully turned tribal groups against one another. Take the Belgian treatment of Rwanda for example.
Also, you mentioned the HIV/AIDS pandemic. If you listen to Stephen Lewis (UN envoy for HIV/AIDS to Africa), Dr. James Orbinski (ex president of Medecins sans Frontieres) or any of the other people knowledgeable about the pandemic you will hear them say that education about AIDS is not the bottleneck. In fact, they maintain that many Africans are very knowledgeable about HIV/AIDS and its transmission. AIDS is spread not because of the stupidity of its victims but because they are paralysed by their poverty or, in the case of many women, their inequality with men. A woman often cannot force her husband to wear a condom. A young girl who goes to the city to find work may be so poor she is forced to have relationships with men in order to live. When someone does get AIDS they do not have access to the anti-retroviral drugs that we have in the North partially because of the iron-fisted grip the pharmaceutical companies have on the ‘intellectual property’ of these life saving drugs. I could go on but this is too complex to fully explain in a MeFi comment.
All industrial countries have pumped billions into Africa - and it even declined the last twenty years. Once again billion of dollars have been poored into the continent - and it didn't help.
First of all, we have received more money back through interest payment on debt than we have given through aid so we cannot say that “billions of dollars have been poured into the continent” but rather that billions have been extracted by the North. This doesn’t even account for the benefits we receive due to trade injustice. And if we look at where many of those aid dollars went we can see that much of it was tied aid. Much ‘aid’ was given through the IMF and World Bank ‘structural adjustment’ programs that basically gutted any existing social services (health, education systems).
I vehemently disagree with your claim that it is “not the west’s job to get Africa out of poverty”. I am not asking for us to be charitable. Charity can only go so far. What I demand of the North, of my own country, and of myself is that we fulfill our responsibility to enable and build developing countries and communities to the point where people are not dying stupid deaths from hunger, treatable diseases and other consequences of poverty.
posted by madokachan at 9:59 AM on July 2, 2005
African have to learn democracy first and how to rule themselves. As long as they 'vote' or fight for corrupt leaders that preach only selfish tribalism most 'nations' will stay chaotic and hungry. As long as african politician say that HIV is not the problem or it say it's not the reason for AIDS how can you effectivly help and educate people?
Whoah homodigitalis. I’m afraid I simply have to respond to your comment. There is a lot of history here that is missing in your evaluation of the situation. We in the North need to remember the history of colonialism that oppressed and exploited many of the countries we call “developing” or “the South” today. The colonial powers left many of their colonies politically unstable and in turmoil often after having successfully turned tribal groups against one another. Take the Belgian treatment of Rwanda for example.
Also, you mentioned the HIV/AIDS pandemic. If you listen to Stephen Lewis (UN envoy for HIV/AIDS to Africa), Dr. James Orbinski (ex president of Medecins sans Frontieres) or any of the other people knowledgeable about the pandemic you will hear them say that education about AIDS is not the bottleneck. In fact, they maintain that many Africans are very knowledgeable about HIV/AIDS and its transmission. AIDS is spread not because of the stupidity of its victims but because they are paralysed by their poverty or, in the case of many women, their inequality with men. A woman often cannot force her husband to wear a condom. A young girl who goes to the city to find work may be so poor she is forced to have relationships with men in order to live. When someone does get AIDS they do not have access to the anti-retroviral drugs that we have in the North partially because of the iron-fisted grip the pharmaceutical companies have on the ‘intellectual property’ of these life saving drugs. I could go on but this is too complex to fully explain in a MeFi comment.
All industrial countries have pumped billions into Africa - and it even declined the last twenty years. Once again billion of dollars have been poored into the continent - and it didn't help.
First of all, we have received more money back through interest payment on debt than we have given through aid so we cannot say that “billions of dollars have been poured into the continent” but rather that billions have been extracted by the North. This doesn’t even account for the benefits we receive due to trade injustice. And if we look at where many of those aid dollars went we can see that much of it was tied aid. Much ‘aid’ was given through the IMF and World Bank ‘structural adjustment’ programs that basically gutted any existing social services (health, education systems).
I vehemently disagree with your claim that it is “not the west’s job to get Africa out of poverty”. I am not asking for us to be charitable. Charity can only go so far. What I demand of the North, of my own country, and of myself is that we fulfill our responsibility to enable and build developing countries and communities to the point where people are not dying stupid deaths from hunger, treatable diseases and other consequences of poverty.
posted by madokachan at 9:59 AM on July 2, 2005
No, it doesn't. The vast majority of trade is between developed nations. This includes most raw materials. Poor people are a lousy market.
This is a lovely example of failing to support a statement ("No it doesn't") by adding observations which - whilst arguably true - have no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the statement initially denied (that global capitalism inevitably involves exploitation of some in order for others to thrive)
I agree with cmonkey's initial remark. But then I would, since I'm a goddamned lefty. Like any humane person should be. :-)
posted by Decani at 10:00 AM on July 2, 2005
This is a lovely example of failing to support a statement ("No it doesn't") by adding observations which - whilst arguably true - have no bearing whatsoever on the truth of the statement initially denied (that global capitalism inevitably involves exploitation of some in order for others to thrive)
I agree with cmonkey's initial remark. But then I would, since I'm a goddamned lefty. Like any humane person should be. :-)
posted by Decani at 10:00 AM on July 2, 2005
Tovarisch! But one somehow suspects that "mr.marx" did not just now hook up with the comrades.
nah, sorry, I'm just an ordinary socialist. the name is just a nickname, based on my real name. but I'm not really offended, it's not like you thought I was a Texas Republican...
posted by mr.marx at 10:11 AM on July 2, 2005
nah, sorry, I'm just an ordinary socialist. the name is just a nickname, based on my real name. but I'm not really offended, it's not like you thought I was a Texas Republican...
posted by mr.marx at 10:11 AM on July 2, 2005
Had to go into work briefly, to collect something. So, I was cycling by Hyde Park just in time to hear Bono firing up his magnificent indignation. Luckily, he wasn't so self-righteous that he missed the opportunity to plug U2's latest atrocityalbum.
The area around Hyde Park is, unsurprisingly, packed with people. The strange thing is that there didn't seem to be much of a party atmosphere. Most people just seemed p*ssed off at being kept so far away from the action, by the police. It's probably different inside the park.
Maybe I'm being far too cynical, but Live8 seems to be more about massaging the egos of dinosaurs, and boosting the profits of the owners of burger vans.
Forgive the cynicism, but I was cut up on the way home, by one of those f*cktard-mobile limousines, in Kensington. No doubt it was shuttling one of the many Rock-God worthies from their on-stage adulation to their en-suite jacuzzi penthouse suite.
posted by veedubya at 10:20 AM on July 2, 2005
The area around Hyde Park is, unsurprisingly, packed with people. The strange thing is that there didn't seem to be much of a party atmosphere. Most people just seemed p*ssed off at being kept so far away from the action, by the police. It's probably different inside the park.
Maybe I'm being far too cynical, but Live8 seems to be more about massaging the egos of dinosaurs, and boosting the profits of the owners of burger vans.
Forgive the cynicism, but I was cut up on the way home, by one of those f*cktard-mobile limousines, in Kensington. No doubt it was shuttling one of the many Rock-God worthies from their on-stage adulation to their en-suite jacuzzi penthouse suite.
posted by veedubya at 10:20 AM on July 2, 2005
We in the North need to remember the history of colonialism that oppressed and exploited many of the countries we call “developing” or “the South” today. The colonial powers left many of their colonies politically unstable and in turmoil often after having successfully turned tribal groups against one another.
That was more than fourty years ago! I'm sorry, but the more decades go by, that argument really looses its edge. I think it's basically an excuse for not getting one's act together.
posted by sour cream at 10:53 AM on July 2, 2005
That was more than fourty years ago! I'm sorry, but the more decades go by, that argument really looses its edge. I think it's basically an excuse for not getting one's act together.
posted by sour cream at 10:53 AM on July 2, 2005
Decani: I'm a lefty too, and I believe that global poverty is the great moral challenge of our times. So we need to think clearly and make certain we get our solutions right. I see no evidence that capitalism causes or requires poverty, and none has been offered in this thread.
posted by LarryC at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by LarryC at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2005
When is Pink Floyd up? That's all I care about.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:07 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:07 AM on July 2, 2005
Sir Bob just brought a young Ethiopian woman on stage, who 20 years ago was starving and within 1 day of death, and has now nearly graduated from Agricultural College. Thanks to Live Aid, she is alive and has a future.
As Bob said: "Don't let anyone tell you this stuff doesn't work."
Cunning Linguist - they're about 40 minutes behind schedule, but -
# 1841 Madonna: Like a Prayer, Music, Ray of Light
# 1901 Snow Patrol: Chocolate, Run
# 1906 The Killers: All These Things That I've Done
# 1926 Joss Stone: Super Duper Love, I Had A Dream, Some Kind of Wonderful
# 1946 Scissor Sisters: Laura, Take Your Mama, Everybody Wants The Same Thing
# 2006 Velvet Revolver: Do It For The Kids
# 2026 Sting: Every Breath You Take, Message in a Bottle, Desert Rose
# 2046 Mariah Carey: Vision of Love, Make It Happen, We Belong Together
# 2106 Robbie Williams: Let Me Entertain You, Feel, Angels
# 2126 The Who (introduced by Peter Kay): Who Are You?, Won't Get Fooled Again, Baba O'Riley, Behind Blue Eyes
# 2149 Pink Floyd: TBC (Expected to play four songs including Money, Comfortably Numb, Wish You Were Here)
# 2211 Sir Paul McCartney: TBC (Expected to play five songs including The Long and Winding Road)
# Finale: Sir Paul McCartney joined on stage by George Michael and Sir Mick Jagger
posted by dash_slot- at 11:15 AM on July 2, 2005
As Bob said: "Don't let anyone tell you this stuff doesn't work."
Cunning Linguist - they're about 40 minutes behind schedule, but -
# 1841 Madonna: Like a Prayer, Music, Ray of Light
# 1901 Snow Patrol: Chocolate, Run
# 1906 The Killers: All These Things That I've Done
# 1926 Joss Stone: Super Duper Love, I Had A Dream, Some Kind of Wonderful
# 1946 Scissor Sisters: Laura, Take Your Mama, Everybody Wants The Same Thing
# 2006 Velvet Revolver: Do It For The Kids
# 2026 Sting: Every Breath You Take, Message in a Bottle, Desert Rose
# 2046 Mariah Carey: Vision of Love, Make It Happen, We Belong Together
# 2106 Robbie Williams: Let Me Entertain You, Feel, Angels
# 2126 The Who (introduced by Peter Kay): Who Are You?, Won't Get Fooled Again, Baba O'Riley, Behind Blue Eyes
# 2149 Pink Floyd: TBC (Expected to play four songs including Money, Comfortably Numb, Wish You Were Here)
# 2211 Sir Paul McCartney: TBC (Expected to play five songs including The Long and Winding Road)
# Finale: Sir Paul McCartney joined on stage by George Michael and Sir Mick Jagger
posted by dash_slot- at 11:15 AM on July 2, 2005
Why is MTV (or the Live 8 people or whoever) showing pics of starving children and playing The Cars' "Drive" in the background? What's the connection? It's the Jerry Lewis Telethon meets the Real World?
posted by raysmj at 11:17 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by raysmj at 11:17 AM on July 2, 2005
I still want to know how we ended up with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw.
Yeah, well, we here in Philly got Toby freakin' Keith. Trade ya.
I'd have to agree. Toby's a dolt, which would be forgivable if he had even a smidgen of talent. And I've had a soft spot for Ms. Hill ever since "This Kiss" was used as background music in a Danni Ashe/Aria Giovanni lesbian porn video. And Tim's the son of a NY Mets legend, so he can't be all bad.
posted by jonmc at 11:18 AM on July 2, 2005
Yeah, well, we here in Philly got Toby freakin' Keith. Trade ya.
I'd have to agree. Toby's a dolt, which would be forgivable if he had even a smidgen of talent. And I've had a soft spot for Ms. Hill ever since "This Kiss" was used as background music in a Danni Ashe/Aria Giovanni lesbian porn video. And Tim's the son of a NY Mets legend, so he can't be all bad.
posted by jonmc at 11:18 AM on July 2, 2005
That was more than fourty years ago!
How old are you, ten or something - Forty years is fuck all time!
It seems people really do live in the here and now these days - we're living on a big global easter island - selfish bastards the lot of us!
Our parents and grandparents gained a hell of a lot of wealth out of the third world. We have gained a hell of a lot of wealth from our parents and grandparents.
I think I've mentioned this before but a lasting impression I got from a few years I had spent in South Africa was how the general populace had been 'beaten' into submission. Walking up the road at 12 years old, an elder african man was aking me something and called me 'boss'. I told him not to call me that as he was my elder - he said 'sorry sir'.
It's not hard in my mind to understand why the majority of Africans suffer under horrible dictatorships - we taught them how to.
posted by twistedonion at 11:24 AM on July 2, 2005
How old are you, ten or something - Forty years is fuck all time!
It seems people really do live in the here and now these days - we're living on a big global easter island - selfish bastards the lot of us!
Our parents and grandparents gained a hell of a lot of wealth out of the third world. We have gained a hell of a lot of wealth from our parents and grandparents.
I think I've mentioned this before but a lasting impression I got from a few years I had spent in South Africa was how the general populace had been 'beaten' into submission. Walking up the road at 12 years old, an elder african man was aking me something and called me 'boss'. I told him not to call me that as he was my elder - he said 'sorry sir'.
It's not hard in my mind to understand why the majority of Africans suffer under horrible dictatorships - we taught them how to.
posted by twistedonion at 11:24 AM on July 2, 2005
Why is MTV (or the Live 8 people or whoever) showing pics of starving children and playing The Cars' "Drive" in the background? What's the connection?
That was one of the signature tunes to Live Aid. It didn't seem to make sense , but I hardly listened to the lyrics back then.
Now, it does.
posted by dash_slot- at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2005
That was one of the signature tunes to Live Aid. It didn't seem to make sense , but I hardly listened to the lyrics back then.
Now, it does.
posted by dash_slot- at 11:30 AM on July 2, 2005
(Expected to play four songs including Money, Comfortably Numb, Wish You Were Here)
*Dies. Goes to Heaven.*
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2005
*Dies. Goes to Heaven.*
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2005
Revoltingly self-important.
I hope the entirely well-earned and unexpected extra record sales are matched by the small issue of donations.
posted by NinjaPirate at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2005
I hope the entirely well-earned and unexpected extra record sales are matched by the small issue of donations.
posted by NinjaPirate at 11:41 AM on July 2, 2005
It sort of makes sense, yes, but not completely. If you think about it in the way it's intended, I'm guessing, then you have to switch, halfway through the song, the object of the singer's words from the victim to the potential donor. But it's better than playing "Everybody Hurts," or something more totally random, yes.
posted by raysmj at 11:42 AM on July 2, 2005
posted by raysmj at 11:42 AM on July 2, 2005
I really fail to understand all the comments about record sales and album promoting. They're in bands, they play songs, what do you want them to do?
The events have done one thing and that's got people debating what should be done, and how can that be a bad thing? Africa is in a pretty bad state, this event gets people to discuss how to stop that and all some people can do is complain about record sales and limos, really, get over it.
Although, as I said earlier, I wish they'd done it without Dido. But Snoop, that ruled.
posted by ciderwoman at 11:53 AM on July 2, 2005
The events have done one thing and that's got people debating what should be done, and how can that be a bad thing? Africa is in a pretty bad state, this event gets people to discuss how to stop that and all some people can do is complain about record sales and limos, really, get over it.
Although, as I said earlier, I wish they'd done it without Dido. But Snoop, that ruled.
posted by ciderwoman at 11:53 AM on July 2, 2005
The bums lost Lebowski.
I found him. Do the bums want him back?
posted by jonmc at 11:59 AM on July 2, 2005
I found him. Do the bums want him back?
posted by jonmc at 11:59 AM on July 2, 2005
Whether you think that Live 8 is a hopeless cause, whether you think the fault for the current situation lies with the First World, the Third World, despotic leaders, incapable Africans, whether you think that we need poor countries to maintain our first world lifestyles or that rock stars are hypocrites for appearing at this event while also being limousine, self-promoting millionaires or that the day is mainly to stroke the egos of Bono and/or Bob Geldof...
...the bottom line is that there are literally millions of our fellow human beings who we share this planet with that lead lives that are beyond our imagining in how difficult they are and anything that can help make their lives a little better is worth it.
posted by Jaybo at 12:48 PM on July 2, 2005
...the bottom line is that there are literally millions of our fellow human beings who we share this planet with that lead lives that are beyond our imagining in how difficult they are and anything that can help make their lives a little better is worth it.
posted by Jaybo at 12:48 PM on July 2, 2005
cmonkey:"I highly doubt that 8 white men, none of whom have had a hungry day in their lives, give enough of a fuck to actually do anything of use..." 8 white men? There is no such thing as "white" people. Race is only a social construct you facist, racist pig. Besides the G8 includes Japan a nation not known for being "white".
posted by MikeMc at 1:19 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by MikeMc at 1:19 PM on July 2, 2005
God I hate Bono. I really wish my political side had some respectable politicians and activists to represent the cause and didn't rely on Hollywood assclowns to do our PR.
posted by trinarian at 1:36 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by trinarian at 1:36 PM on July 2, 2005
a celebrity wankfest. i've just heard paul mccartney, the world's 40th richest person saying there would be an outcry if there was extreme poverty in the uk.
he hasn't been seen in liverpool for a while, if he had he wouldn't come out with crap like that.
and they're under orders not to criticise bush and blair, who have reduced large parts of iraq into extreme poverty after launching an illegal and unjust war.
and later they will applaud gordon brown like trained seals....
johgnathon ross: so how fantastic was madonna, well they've all been fantastic
guest: she was fantastic
posted by quarsan at 1:39 PM on July 2, 2005
he hasn't been seen in liverpool for a while, if he had he wouldn't come out with crap like that.
and they're under orders not to criticise bush and blair, who have reduced large parts of iraq into extreme poverty after launching an illegal and unjust war.
and later they will applaud gordon brown like trained seals....
johgnathon ross: so how fantastic was madonna, well they've all been fantastic
guest: she was fantastic
posted by quarsan at 1:39 PM on July 2, 2005
God you're all miserable b**tards.
I'd like to know what any of you have done to raise awareness of poverty or any other of the issues involved. In fact I'd like to know if any of you have ever done anything to help causes that can match the efforts of:
self-promoting millionaires... the day is mainly to stroke the egos of Bono and/or Bob Geldof
You must have done something bloody amazing if you are criticizing Bob Geldof, a guy who has just repeated the success of Live Aid twenty years later and thrown the biggest live event the world has ever seen.
But hey, you're all a bit jaded and cynical about the world. I guess we'll all have to accept that nothing anyone ever does will make the world a better place ever and we should all go back to ignoring the problem.
i've just heard paul McCarthy, the world's 40th richest person saying there would be an outcry if there was extreme poverty in the uk.
He actually said that if 50,000 people were dying here every day/week (can't remember specifically) through poverty then we would do something... Which we would.
Sure there is poverty in this country as well, but should we just ignore everyone elses problems just because we have our own?
a celebrity wankfest.
This is a bigger wankfest in here!
"I'm really cynical about this... This won't solve anything"
"No I'M more cynical! This is a waste of time and everyone involved is a hateful prick!"
"I'm even more cynical!! Everyone involved is worse then the Cholera and I hate them all"
"Come suck my big cynical balls"
You should all stop being dicks, it's sad to see. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
posted by Meccabilly at 2:13 PM on July 2, 2005
I'd like to know what any of you have done to raise awareness of poverty or any other of the issues involved. In fact I'd like to know if any of you have ever done anything to help causes that can match the efforts of:
self-promoting millionaires... the day is mainly to stroke the egos of Bono and/or Bob Geldof
You must have done something bloody amazing if you are criticizing Bob Geldof, a guy who has just repeated the success of Live Aid twenty years later and thrown the biggest live event the world has ever seen.
But hey, you're all a bit jaded and cynical about the world. I guess we'll all have to accept that nothing anyone ever does will make the world a better place ever and we should all go back to ignoring the problem.
i've just heard paul McCarthy, the world's 40th richest person saying there would be an outcry if there was extreme poverty in the uk.
He actually said that if 50,000 people were dying here every day/week (can't remember specifically) through poverty then we would do something... Which we would.
Sure there is poverty in this country as well, but should we just ignore everyone elses problems just because we have our own?
a celebrity wankfest.
This is a bigger wankfest in here!
"I'm really cynical about this... This won't solve anything"
"No I'M more cynical! This is a waste of time and everyone involved is a hateful prick!"
"I'm even more cynical!! Everyone involved is worse then the Cholera and I hate them all"
"Come suck my big cynical balls"
You should all stop being dicks, it's sad to see. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
posted by Meccabilly at 2:13 PM on July 2, 2005
@madokachan
We in the North need to remember the history of colonialism that oppressed and exploited many of the countries we call “developing” or “the South” today. The colonial powers left many of their colonies politically unstable and in turmoil often after having successfully turned tribal groups against one another. Take the Belgian treatment of Rwanda for example.
I am well aware of the colonial history. Still Africa belongs NOW to the Africans. When will we start respecting them?
Many of those so called 'nations' are articial constructs - based on the 'deals' colonial powers made. Many 'nations' aer composed of tribes / tribal societies that had their own ways.
But once again. It's the african job now to maybe abbondon some of these 'perverse' nations, start new ones or grow together. If the west would interfere it would just be like the 'good old days'.
It took most western nations centuries to form themselves or find a 'stable' composition. Look at former Yugoslawia or the former Soviet Union. It is still happening.
You can't make the british, french, belgian and germans responsible for all current conflicts and wounds. You have to look at each country and each conflict. Sometimes commerical interests are involved (diamonds, gold, oil, etc.) sometimes it's religion and sometimes stupid tribalism.
But tell me any modern war were there are NOT some other nations or companies playing a smaller or bigger role?!
Overall I repeat my point: Africans have to take care of Africa. They are their own masters and abusers now.
Also, you mentioned the HIV/AIDS pandemic. etc.
Let's separate the before and after.
Before: Education should help PREVENT Aids before it happens. Education would mean (from my perspective) also an education of societies as a whole - not just about AIDS but also aspects like equal rights etc. I tried to be brief.
After: Sure treatment is tough and many multinationals try to make a profit. Isn't that normal for drug companies? But it ain't as simple as that. Because many drug therapies are complex and complicated. Not everyone has the doctors and training to administer it. You need the infrastructur of a modern medical system to make it work for all - which is not available in all african regions. Plus we haven't seen the end of AIDS therapy - maybe a complete cure, maybe a therapy that is easy to administer.
First of all, we have received more money back through interest payment on debt than we have given through aid so we cannot say that “billions of dollars have been poured into the continent” but rather that billions have been extracted by the North.
Wow! Slow down. If you really want to nitpick, then please start with a detailed preview of single countries and single projects. Otherwise we'll end up only in rhetorics.
Trade injustice. Yes, is for real. But were do we have real trade justice please? Even the EU and US are fighting for 'trade justice'. The WTO and other stuff has helped to get closer to a global free trade - but it still doesn't exist. Even between developed and rich nations. So fair trade is a myth, trade (laws) are in constant development. For all nations.
IMF, Worldbank and Co. Foreign Aid from many countries has a long and shamefull history of failure and inefficient management. Much money was filtered out by the elites in receiving countries or their inability to put the money to good use. In many cases developed nation 'donated' huge projects like damns or electricity plants that had to be built by western companies, because there was nobody in Africa capable of doing it (especially during the 60's to 70's). In many other cases promising projects concentrated of developing one aspect / industry of one country without looking at networked aspects, like giving tractors and modern crops, without educating peasants how to use them, plus repairmen for the tractors and an industry to produce spare parts for these machines.
The west / lender / whatever you want to call them had to learn and are still learning how to help.
But there is also the problem to combine new loans and money with conditions. Isn't that mingling with the internal affairs of a sovereign African nation. This is tricky and ain't easy.
I vehemently disagree with your claim that it is “not the west’s job to get Africa out of poverty”. etc.
Let me play the devils advocate here: people all over the world are dying from diseases and poverty, even in the US or Europa.
I don't think it's our job to enable and build developing countries and communities 'to the point where people are not dying stupid deaths from hunger, treatable diseases and other consequences of poverty'.
Why?
Because that would mean that we deeply interfere with several african nations sovereign rights. And most of the time it just won't work. Remember Somilia and it's endless civil war - outside interference didn't help. Darfur - can we interfere in another civil war?
Look at the great Robert Mugabe: he is a killer of his own nation. In some way he forcefully rebuild this nation - a bit like Mao and Stalin. And it's costing many lives. According to your wishes - at which point would we interfere? Because currently there are many 'stupid deaths' because of Mugabe's great ideas.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:19 PM on July 2, 2005
We in the North need to remember the history of colonialism that oppressed and exploited many of the countries we call “developing” or “the South” today. The colonial powers left many of their colonies politically unstable and in turmoil often after having successfully turned tribal groups against one another. Take the Belgian treatment of Rwanda for example.
I am well aware of the colonial history. Still Africa belongs NOW to the Africans. When will we start respecting them?
Many of those so called 'nations' are articial constructs - based on the 'deals' colonial powers made. Many 'nations' aer composed of tribes / tribal societies that had their own ways.
But once again. It's the african job now to maybe abbondon some of these 'perverse' nations, start new ones or grow together. If the west would interfere it would just be like the 'good old days'.
It took most western nations centuries to form themselves or find a 'stable' composition. Look at former Yugoslawia or the former Soviet Union. It is still happening.
You can't make the british, french, belgian and germans responsible for all current conflicts and wounds. You have to look at each country and each conflict. Sometimes commerical interests are involved (diamonds, gold, oil, etc.) sometimes it's religion and sometimes stupid tribalism.
But tell me any modern war were there are NOT some other nations or companies playing a smaller or bigger role?!
Overall I repeat my point: Africans have to take care of Africa. They are their own masters and abusers now.
Also, you mentioned the HIV/AIDS pandemic. etc.
Let's separate the before and after.
Before: Education should help PREVENT Aids before it happens. Education would mean (from my perspective) also an education of societies as a whole - not just about AIDS but also aspects like equal rights etc. I tried to be brief.
After: Sure treatment is tough and many multinationals try to make a profit. Isn't that normal for drug companies? But it ain't as simple as that. Because many drug therapies are complex and complicated. Not everyone has the doctors and training to administer it. You need the infrastructur of a modern medical system to make it work for all - which is not available in all african regions. Plus we haven't seen the end of AIDS therapy - maybe a complete cure, maybe a therapy that is easy to administer.
First of all, we have received more money back through interest payment on debt than we have given through aid so we cannot say that “billions of dollars have been poured into the continent” but rather that billions have been extracted by the North.
Wow! Slow down. If you really want to nitpick, then please start with a detailed preview of single countries and single projects. Otherwise we'll end up only in rhetorics.
Trade injustice. Yes, is for real. But were do we have real trade justice please? Even the EU and US are fighting for 'trade justice'. The WTO and other stuff has helped to get closer to a global free trade - but it still doesn't exist. Even between developed and rich nations. So fair trade is a myth, trade (laws) are in constant development. For all nations.
IMF, Worldbank and Co. Foreign Aid from many countries has a long and shamefull history of failure and inefficient management. Much money was filtered out by the elites in receiving countries or their inability to put the money to good use. In many cases developed nation 'donated' huge projects like damns or electricity plants that had to be built by western companies, because there was nobody in Africa capable of doing it (especially during the 60's to 70's). In many other cases promising projects concentrated of developing one aspect / industry of one country without looking at networked aspects, like giving tractors and modern crops, without educating peasants how to use them, plus repairmen for the tractors and an industry to produce spare parts for these machines.
The west / lender / whatever you want to call them had to learn and are still learning how to help.
But there is also the problem to combine new loans and money with conditions. Isn't that mingling with the internal affairs of a sovereign African nation. This is tricky and ain't easy.
I vehemently disagree with your claim that it is “not the west’s job to get Africa out of poverty”. etc.
Let me play the devils advocate here: people all over the world are dying from diseases and poverty, even in the US or Europa.
I don't think it's our job to enable and build developing countries and communities 'to the point where people are not dying stupid deaths from hunger, treatable diseases and other consequences of poverty'.
Why?
Because that would mean that we deeply interfere with several african nations sovereign rights. And most of the time it just won't work. Remember Somilia and it's endless civil war - outside interference didn't help. Darfur - can we interfere in another civil war?
Look at the great Robert Mugabe: he is a killer of his own nation. In some way he forcefully rebuild this nation - a bit like Mao and Stalin. And it's costing many lives. According to your wishes - at which point would we interfere? Because currently there are many 'stupid deaths' because of Mugabe's great ideas.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:19 PM on July 2, 2005
Africans have to take care of Africa. They are their own masters and abusers now.
Yes, that sounds like a marvelous idea... Move along! Nothing to see here! No, no, ignore that genocide.. It's their problem, they're their own masters after all.
So HOMODIGITALIS, should we make trade rules fair? Is that interfering? Should we wipe out 3rd world debt? Is that a bit interventionist?
I spose if I ever see you lying in the street I should walk on by - you're your own master and abuser...
posted by Meccabilly at 2:29 PM on July 2, 2005
Yes, that sounds like a marvelous idea... Move along! Nothing to see here! No, no, ignore that genocide.. It's their problem, they're their own masters after all.
So HOMODIGITALIS, should we make trade rules fair? Is that interfering? Should we wipe out 3rd world debt? Is that a bit interventionist?
I spose if I ever see you lying in the street I should walk on by - you're your own master and abuser...
posted by Meccabilly at 2:29 PM on July 2, 2005
@dash_slot:
Wow. You do realise that elections can be stolen in any country, right? Your cite of Mugabe, followed by trite and ill-informed comment about Zimbabwe, where the dictator recently defrauded his people and continues to murder his opponents, says a great deal.
Sorry, did I miss something? When did Mister Mugabe turn his country into a properous heaven?
There are only a few african nations were democracy is safely established. Most african regions below the sahara have been brutally introduced to modern politics by colonial powers. Only after the second world war and the weakness of the former colonial powers have africans been able to explore it themselves.
The lack of charity fundraising, and the focus on political pressure, is what Live8 is all about. The linking of aid, trade and political reform in Africa is what the process is all about. What you bitterly decry is what Geldof et al want. Read a little more about the principles.
Oh crap. Live8 is 95% of it's time about pop stars palying in front of a global audience. This ain't political pressure - that's simply entertainment. When people demonstrate at WTO meetings etc. THAT is political pressure. Rich kids watching telly or buying expensive concert ticket aint it.
When you want political reform in Africa you have to protest in SPECIFIC countries for SPECIFIC issues, like womens rights or better deals on mining rights.
Bob & Bono should play some concerts in Africa and stage some protests in real shitholes down THERE. Now that would impress me.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:29 PM on July 2, 2005
Wow. You do realise that elections can be stolen in any country, right? Your cite of Mugabe, followed by trite and ill-informed comment about Zimbabwe, where the dictator recently defrauded his people and continues to murder his opponents, says a great deal.
Sorry, did I miss something? When did Mister Mugabe turn his country into a properous heaven?
There are only a few african nations were democracy is safely established. Most african regions below the sahara have been brutally introduced to modern politics by colonial powers. Only after the second world war and the weakness of the former colonial powers have africans been able to explore it themselves.
The lack of charity fundraising, and the focus on political pressure, is what Live8 is all about. The linking of aid, trade and political reform in Africa is what the process is all about. What you bitterly decry is what Geldof et al want. Read a little more about the principles.
Oh crap. Live8 is 95% of it's time about pop stars palying in front of a global audience. This ain't political pressure - that's simply entertainment. When people demonstrate at WTO meetings etc. THAT is political pressure. Rich kids watching telly or buying expensive concert ticket aint it.
When you want political reform in Africa you have to protest in SPECIFIC countries for SPECIFIC issues, like womens rights or better deals on mining rights.
Bob & Bono should play some concerts in Africa and stage some protests in real shitholes down THERE. Now that would impress me.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:29 PM on July 2, 2005
Round of Applause due: Meccabilly
But don't take it all so seriously - cynicism is a sport in here and seeing who can piss the holier-than-thou wazz the highest is nigh-on an Olypmic Event.
Here in Spain we're just suffering Mariah Carey at the moment - not getting this quite live. I'm almost willing to donate my food for this. In fact, I can feel it coming up, right now...
posted by benzo8 at 2:30 PM on July 2, 2005
But don't take it all so seriously - cynicism is a sport in here and seeing who can piss the holier-than-thou wazz the highest is nigh-on an Olypmic Event.
Here in Spain we're just suffering Mariah Carey at the moment - not getting this quite live. I'm almost willing to donate my food for this. In fact, I can feel it coming up, right now...
posted by benzo8 at 2:30 PM on July 2, 2005
Live8 is 95% of it's time about pop stars palying in front of a global audience. This ain't political pressure - that's simply entertainment
200,000,000 watching on television, all of whom can sign up to MakePovertyHistory and show world wide solidarity.
When people demonstrate at WTO meetings etc.
200,000 marching on G8 - with Bob Geldof asking for there to be 1,000,000 before Edinburgh city told them not to because they can't cope with that many people.
Bob & Bono should play some concerts in Africa and stage some protests in real shitholes down THERE. Now that would impress me.
The concert is also taking place in Jo'burg
When you want political reform in Africa you have to protest in SPECIFIC countries for SPECIFIC issues, like womens rights or better deals on mining rights.
How about 1.Wiping out 3rd world debt 2.Making Trade Fair 3.Doubling of aid?
Rich kids watching telly or buying expensive concert ticket ain't it.
The Tickets were free and given out via lottery.
Please don't inflict any of your small minded ignorance upon us any longer
posted by Meccabilly at 2:41 PM on July 2, 2005
200,000,000 watching on television, all of whom can sign up to MakePovertyHistory and show world wide solidarity.
When people demonstrate at WTO meetings etc.
200,000 marching on G8 - with Bob Geldof asking for there to be 1,000,000 before Edinburgh city told them not to because they can't cope with that many people.
Bob & Bono should play some concerts in Africa and stage some protests in real shitholes down THERE. Now that would impress me.
The concert is also taking place in Jo'burg
When you want political reform in Africa you have to protest in SPECIFIC countries for SPECIFIC issues, like womens rights or better deals on mining rights.
How about 1.Wiping out 3rd world debt 2.Making Trade Fair 3.Doubling of aid?
Rich kids watching telly or buying expensive concert ticket ain't it.
The Tickets were free and given out via lottery.
Please don't inflict any of your small minded ignorance upon us any longer
posted by Meccabilly at 2:41 PM on July 2, 2005
THe governments in Africa may not be the best, but hey they're fucked anyway. Why ? Because the EU, the US and every other 'developed' country props up its own producers so that developing countries can't compete. It is telling that Birhan Woldu (the 24 yr old Ethiopian 'saved by Live Aid') brought a gift of coffee with her to the UK - it's the only way that Ethiopian coffee is going to get anywhere due to trade barriers.
If people like Blair and Bush were prepared to do something about trade barriers then there's a good chance that we wouldn't be having the same arguments in 20 years time. But they won't - when it comes down to it avoiding one lost job in farming is more important to these people than 100 lost lives in Africa. The debt relief and everything else can help in the short term, but for it to work long term the trade situation has to be worked out.
The developed countries have climbed to the top and there's no fucking way that they're going to give up any of it - not even if it means millions of dead in Africa - in case you can't tell, this REALLY REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!!
posted by daveg at 2:46 PM on July 2, 2005
If people like Blair and Bush were prepared to do something about trade barriers then there's a good chance that we wouldn't be having the same arguments in 20 years time. But they won't - when it comes down to it avoiding one lost job in farming is more important to these people than 100 lost lives in Africa. The debt relief and everything else can help in the short term, but for it to work long term the trade situation has to be worked out.
The developed countries have climbed to the top and there's no fucking way that they're going to give up any of it - not even if it means millions of dead in Africa - in case you can't tell, this REALLY REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!!
posted by daveg at 2:46 PM on July 2, 2005
@Meccabilly:
Debt: First of all there are many different loans/debts and different countries. Debt relief is a great idea: but once again we would this would benefit many badly run countries - and punish those who kept the contracts and paid their loans back. (on a broad general perspective).
Wars: Ah, the temptation of intervention. Sure we can't sit still while other wage war. Let's go there and bring peace. Please wake up. The UN was founded to do this - and it simply doesn't work always that. The bigger hammer is not a gurantee that you can stop a 'small' war in Africa.
Overall I see in your remarks that you really think we can fix these nations problems? IMHO we should try to create a stable global economy and fair 'playing field'. Some african nations are doing VERY well, even attract foreign investors and are modern socities. They have learned to be their own masters. Why shouldn't others achieve them same?
When I listen to people like you, then I wonder if for example the EU shouldn't invade Russia and get rid of Putin, because many russians suffer terribly as well, they live in unfair conditions etc. ...
'I spose if I ever see you lying in the street I should walk on by - you're your own master and abuser...'
Sure, let's get personal - is that's your desire and you can't see the difference between many nation and a person.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:47 PM on July 2, 2005
Debt: First of all there are many different loans/debts and different countries. Debt relief is a great idea: but once again we would this would benefit many badly run countries - and punish those who kept the contracts and paid their loans back. (on a broad general perspective).
Wars: Ah, the temptation of intervention. Sure we can't sit still while other wage war. Let's go there and bring peace. Please wake up. The UN was founded to do this - and it simply doesn't work always that. The bigger hammer is not a gurantee that you can stop a 'small' war in Africa.
Overall I see in your remarks that you really think we can fix these nations problems? IMHO we should try to create a stable global economy and fair 'playing field'. Some african nations are doing VERY well, even attract foreign investors and are modern socities. They have learned to be their own masters. Why shouldn't others achieve them same?
When I listen to people like you, then I wonder if for example the EU shouldn't invade Russia and get rid of Putin, because many russians suffer terribly as well, they live in unfair conditions etc. ...
'I spose if I ever see you lying in the street I should walk on by - you're your own master and abuser...'
Sure, let's get personal - is that's your desire and you can't see the difference between many nation and a person.
posted by homodigitalis at 2:47 PM on July 2, 2005
The developed countries have climbed to the top and there's no fucking way that they're going to give up any of it - not even if it means millions of dead in Africa - in case you can't tell, this REALLY REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!
Nail hit on the head there...
It doesn't seem that there will be much movement on Trade barriers this time, but it's all a step in the right direction... I'm sure most people wouldn't have guessed that 3rd world debt could have been written of 20 years ago but we're nearly there.
posted by Meccabilly at 2:50 PM on July 2, 2005
Nail hit on the head there...
It doesn't seem that there will be much movement on Trade barriers this time, but it's all a step in the right direction... I'm sure most people wouldn't have guessed that 3rd world debt could have been written of 20 years ago but we're nearly there.
posted by Meccabilly at 2:50 PM on July 2, 2005
Debt relief is a great idea
Absolutely it is.
but once again we would this would benefit many badly run countries
And also the 30% who are underfed.
Wars: Ah, the temptation of intervention.
I was by no means suggesting we should invade if that was you misinterpretation of the matter. The UN is indeed the route people should take.
Overall I see in your remarks that you really think we can fix these nations problems?
Absolutely we can do our part. Do you think that we should not?
IMHO we should try to create a stable global economy and fair 'playing field'.
That is what making trade fair is all about - one of the aims of Live8 and it's supporters.
Some african nations are doing VERY well... Why shouldn't others achieve them same?
Because they are held back by the very things we should all campaign against - Debt, Unfair Trade, Poverty, Corruption.
When I listen to people like you
Reasonable people?
I wonder if for example the EU shouldn't invade Russia and get rid of Putin
I see you are being sarcastic. It is not only the lowest form of wit but also completely off the point - I would never suggest we invade any country. Except for when they are power hungry empire building Fascist regimes such as in WWII.
Sure, let's get personal - is that's your desire and you can't see the difference between many nation and a person.
I see you have fallen victim to my sarcasm. I was simply illustrating the point that we should not ignore the plight of others simply because they are in your own words "their own master and abuser".
posted by Meccabilly at 3:03 PM on July 2, 2005
Absolutely it is.
but once again we would this would benefit many badly run countries
And also the 30% who are underfed.
Wars: Ah, the temptation of intervention.
I was by no means suggesting we should invade if that was you misinterpretation of the matter. The UN is indeed the route people should take.
Overall I see in your remarks that you really think we can fix these nations problems?
Absolutely we can do our part. Do you think that we should not?
IMHO we should try to create a stable global economy and fair 'playing field'.
That is what making trade fair is all about - one of the aims of Live8 and it's supporters.
Some african nations are doing VERY well... Why shouldn't others achieve them same?
Because they are held back by the very things we should all campaign against - Debt, Unfair Trade, Poverty, Corruption.
When I listen to people like you
Reasonable people?
I wonder if for example the EU shouldn't invade Russia and get rid of Putin
I see you are being sarcastic. It is not only the lowest form of wit but also completely off the point - I would never suggest we invade any country. Except for when they are power hungry empire building Fascist regimes such as in WWII.
Sure, let's get personal - is that's your desire and you can't see the difference between many nation and a person.
I see you have fallen victim to my sarcasm. I was simply illustrating the point that we should not ignore the plight of others simply because they are in your own words "their own master and abuser".
posted by Meccabilly at 3:03 PM on July 2, 2005
Pink Floyd sounds great, MTV sucks ass, they cut away befire they were done.
posted by Justin Case at 3:23 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by Justin Case at 3:23 PM on July 2, 2005
Be glad. Spanish TV has a studio discussion with some journalist whose name I've not managed to get. In between each song they cut back to the studio and ask him a question about how amazingly historic this all as, which he then proceeds to answer in the most long-winded manner possible. By the time he's finished, we're halfway through the next song. And they're not even showing it live. Bastards.
posted by benzo8 at 3:38 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by benzo8 at 3:38 PM on July 2, 2005
Man, The Floyd are looking old. Sound great after like, 24 years without playing together though.
posted by Celery at 3:42 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by Celery at 3:42 PM on July 2, 2005
Aw crap. I fell asleep and missed Floyd! Stupid hangovers.
What is George Michael doing onstage with McCartney? Is this one of those Revelations things?
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:44 PM on July 2, 2005
What is George Michael doing onstage with McCartney? Is this one of those Revelations things?
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:44 PM on July 2, 2005
We can only make poverty history by making obscene wealth history. Multi-millionaire rock stars are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.
posted by Arqa at 3:53 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by Arqa at 3:53 PM on July 2, 2005
MTV: Stop ignoring Berlin! I'm missing Die Toten Hosen. Ich will mein tanzbein schengen!
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:00 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by Dr. Zira at 4:00 PM on July 2, 2005
Meccabilly -- we get it. You're better than we are because you're more righteously outraged. Congratulations.
posted by clevershark at 4:15 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by clevershark at 4:15 PM on July 2, 2005
the africans might not get any money but mtv sure knew how to handle this day
Production Gameplan:
1. one song, stepped on by a variety of vapid vjs
2. a thirty sec interview with a dumbass crowd member or dumber assed performer
3. four thirty second commercials, one mtv in-house promotional spot
4. repeat
this is what i saw on my tv:
- mariah carey was amazing but her song was cutaway from as african kids danced behind her and she wailed
- maroon 5 got two songs in there
- u2 got one song
- sting was there?
- r.e.m. got one half of a song (stipey looked scary)
- linkin park performed 4 tunes
- geldoff doing "i dont like mondays" was allowed 15 seconds on tv
- the who got to play 2/3s of "baba o'reilly" before mtv got impatient and cut away
- pink floyd's reunion was amazing, so amazing the mtv found it in their hearts to show us 3 1/2 of the songs
out of instant karma, my hope is the fcc will fine viacom millions for letting snoop dogg's motherf*ckahs air at least twice
posted by tsarfan at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2005
Production Gameplan:
1. one song, stepped on by a variety of vapid vjs
2. a thirty sec interview with a dumbass crowd member or dumber assed performer
3. four thirty second commercials, one mtv in-house promotional spot
4. repeat
this is what i saw on my tv:
- mariah carey was amazing but her song was cutaway from as african kids danced behind her and she wailed
- maroon 5 got two songs in there
- u2 got one song
- sting was there?
- r.e.m. got one half of a song (stipey looked scary)
- linkin park performed 4 tunes
- geldoff doing "i dont like mondays" was allowed 15 seconds on tv
- the who got to play 2/3s of "baba o'reilly" before mtv got impatient and cut away
- pink floyd's reunion was amazing, so amazing the mtv found it in their hearts to show us 3 1/2 of the songs
out of instant karma, my hope is the fcc will fine viacom millions for letting snoop dogg's motherf*ckahs air at least twice
posted by tsarfan at 4:41 PM on July 2, 2005
I caught the Floyd set, and I have just one question: who paid to fly quonsar to London?
posted by trondant at 4:51 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by trondant at 4:51 PM on July 2, 2005
Yes, that sounds like a marvelous idea... Move along! Nothing to see here! No, no, ignore that genocide.. It's their problem, they're their own masters after all.
not to drag in already ubiquitous and worn out topics, but I would just like to encourage anyone who agrees with the sentiment that we are obliged to interfere in africa to compare that stance with their position on Iraq. I'm not saying they're the same thing, but some of the same concerns are relevant, and the comparison can help clarify and deepen your positions on both...
posted by mdn at 5:07 PM on July 2, 2005
not to drag in already ubiquitous and worn out topics, but I would just like to encourage anyone who agrees with the sentiment that we are obliged to interfere in africa to compare that stance with their position on Iraq. I'm not saying they're the same thing, but some of the same concerns are relevant, and the comparison can help clarify and deepen your positions on both...
posted by mdn at 5:07 PM on July 2, 2005
But it ain't as simple as that. Because many drug therapies are complex and complicated. Not everyone has the doctors and training to administer it. You need the infrastructur of a modern medical system to make it work for all - which is not available in all african regions.
I apologize for being harsh but that is rubbish. You say AIDS is too ‘complicated’ to treat without a modern medical system? I will bow to Stephen Lewis to speak for me on this. This is an excerpt from a speech by Mr. Lewis at a conference in 2004:
“A little NGO, is actually fashioning the model, proving to the world that in the poorest countries, we call them ‘resource constrained environments,’ you can actually do treatment involving the world’s worst pandemic. You can do it with pre-qualified fixed drug combinations meaning the people take just two tablets a day. You can demonstrate to the world that adherence rates are over 95%. You can show that the side effects are negligible. You can demonstrate that communities can get involved and overcome the normal patterns of stigma and discrimination. You can demonstrate that you can train health workers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, community health workers, counsellors. All of it done by MSF.”
Because that would mean that we deeply interfere with several african nations sovereign rights. And most of the time it just won't work. Remember Somilia and it's endless civil war - outside interference didn't help. Darfur - can we interfere in another civil war?
I am not talking about ‘interfering in civil war.’ I am still not sure where I stand on that although I do think we should get involved in the case of genocide (note our egregious failure in Rwanda). I am talking about helping countries to build their health, education and physical infrastructure. I am talking about removing the crippling debts that force countries to spend more on interest payments than on their health and education system combined. I am talking about NOT interfering in places like Haiti where their legitimate democratically elected (and socially minded) president was removed by the USA, France and Canada (shame on my own country for this one). I am talking about removing the harmful subsidies that cause our countries to ‘dump’ agricultural products in developing countries putting subsistence farmers out of work. These actions are not ‘interfering with sovereign rights’, they are necessary, just and humane.
posted by madokachan at 5:12 PM on July 2, 2005
I apologize for being harsh but that is rubbish. You say AIDS is too ‘complicated’ to treat without a modern medical system? I will bow to Stephen Lewis to speak for me on this. This is an excerpt from a speech by Mr. Lewis at a conference in 2004:
“A little NGO, is actually fashioning the model, proving to the world that in the poorest countries, we call them ‘resource constrained environments,’ you can actually do treatment involving the world’s worst pandemic. You can do it with pre-qualified fixed drug combinations meaning the people take just two tablets a day. You can demonstrate to the world that adherence rates are over 95%. You can show that the side effects are negligible. You can demonstrate that communities can get involved and overcome the normal patterns of stigma and discrimination. You can demonstrate that you can train health workers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, community health workers, counsellors. All of it done by MSF.”
Because that would mean that we deeply interfere with several african nations sovereign rights. And most of the time it just won't work. Remember Somilia and it's endless civil war - outside interference didn't help. Darfur - can we interfere in another civil war?
I am not talking about ‘interfering in civil war.’ I am still not sure where I stand on that although I do think we should get involved in the case of genocide (note our egregious failure in Rwanda). I am talking about helping countries to build their health, education and physical infrastructure. I am talking about removing the crippling debts that force countries to spend more on interest payments than on their health and education system combined. I am talking about NOT interfering in places like Haiti where their legitimate democratically elected (and socially minded) president was removed by the USA, France and Canada (shame on my own country for this one). I am talking about removing the harmful subsidies that cause our countries to ‘dump’ agricultural products in developing countries putting subsistence farmers out of work. These actions are not ‘interfering with sovereign rights’, they are necessary, just and humane.
posted by madokachan at 5:12 PM on July 2, 2005
madokachan: This doesn’t even account for the benefits we receive due to trade injustice.
Via farm subsidies such as the EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), for instance. from the linked article:
Via farm subsidies such as the EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), for instance. from the linked article:
The G8 leaders meet next week to discuss world poverty while spending 10 times the global aid budget on subsidies that drive third world farmers out of business. That's like a gang of burglars emptying every house in the street and then using their final victim's front room for a neighbourhood watch meeting.posted by syzygy at 5:28 PM on July 2, 2005
I was bemoaning my lack of cable TV until I heard how abysmally MTV was doing in their coverage. They did a great job with Live Aid, why can't they just shut the hell up and show the damn music? Oh, that's right. They're not about music anymore.
I don't hold out much hope that ABC will show more than one song from U2's set on their highlight show tonight. If they have more talking heads than music, I'm going to kick this puppy here.
posted by corianderstem at 5:31 PM on July 2, 2005
I don't hold out much hope that ABC will show more than one song from U2's set on their highlight show tonight. If they have more talking heads than music, I'm going to kick this puppy here.
posted by corianderstem at 5:31 PM on July 2, 2005
i didnt even know abc was going to do a highlight show tonight for two hours. thanks ciranderstem.
maybe they'll include bjork from japan
but if they show Green Day in berlin singing "american idiot" then i will believe that the media is full of lefties, because watching those german kids sing "i dont want your redneck agenda" nearly brought a tear to my cynical eyes. but then they ruined it and played "we are the champions" for some reason.
posted by tsarfan at 5:38 PM on July 2, 2005
maybe they'll include bjork from japan
but if they show Green Day in berlin singing "american idiot" then i will believe that the media is full of lefties, because watching those german kids sing "i dont want your redneck agenda" nearly brought a tear to my cynical eyes. but then they ruined it and played "we are the champions" for some reason.
posted by tsarfan at 5:38 PM on July 2, 2005
tsarfan -
Green Day played "We Are the Champions" as a tribute to Freddie Mercury (and Queen, presumably), whose performance of that song at the original Live Aid was pretty much the show's most iconic moment. If you mean MTV/VH1/etc. ruined it by showing that song, though, well, can't answer you there.
posted by Sinner at 6:04 PM on July 2, 2005
Green Day played "We Are the Champions" as a tribute to Freddie Mercury (and Queen, presumably), whose performance of that song at the original Live Aid was pretty much the show's most iconic moment. If you mean MTV/VH1/etc. ruined it by showing that song, though, well, can't answer you there.
posted by Sinner at 6:04 PM on July 2, 2005
I'd be interested to hear what those against the concert and the ideas behind suggest we should do about Africa, beyong just "let them sort it out". I'm not being sarcastic, I really would like to hear, becuase all I seem to see is "that won't work, Bono's a blowhard".
Everyone accepts that there's corruption in Africa, and that's a major problem, but if cancelling the debt aids some of the countries then how is it in any way a bad thing? Will doing it make life harder in the badly run countries? Will life be tougher in Zimbabwe if we cancel their debt?
Homodigitalis says that The african nations are not dedicated enough to fight corrupt leaders among themselves or even simply speak out against them. Or even remove them. Maybe so, so what will be the downside of cancelling the debt in that case? The dictators won't be any worse, but some countmay well benefit.
If that really will be such a bad thing, would one of you please explain to me why and what you think, in practical terms, should be done instead?
posted by ciderwoman at 6:07 PM on July 2, 2005
Everyone accepts that there's corruption in Africa, and that's a major problem, but if cancelling the debt aids some of the countries then how is it in any way a bad thing? Will doing it make life harder in the badly run countries? Will life be tougher in Zimbabwe if we cancel their debt?
Homodigitalis says that The african nations are not dedicated enough to fight corrupt leaders among themselves or even simply speak out against them. Or even remove them. Maybe so, so what will be the downside of cancelling the debt in that case? The dictators won't be any worse, but some countmay well benefit.
If that really will be such a bad thing, would one of you please explain to me why and what you think, in practical terms, should be done instead?
posted by ciderwoman at 6:07 PM on July 2, 2005
No problem, tsarfan.
I like that I'm not cynical enough to see this as a good thing ... and, as a big music nut, a really cool thing.
posted by corianderstem at 6:11 PM on July 2, 2005
I like that I'm not cynical enough to see this as a good thing ... and, as a big music nut, a really cool thing.
posted by corianderstem at 6:11 PM on July 2, 2005
> If that really will be such a bad thing, would one of you please explain to
> me why and what you think, in practical terms, should be done instead?
What do you mean "instead?" I was in favor of cancelling third-world debts since the day I first read in The Economist that there was an actual, if remote, possibility it might happen. That was several years back. Isn't it possible to both support that notion and also think Live 8 is a bunch of hooey and Bono should be shot off to Uranus? I see no contradiction!
posted by jfuller at 7:21 PM on July 2, 2005
> me why and what you think, in practical terms, should be done instead?
What do you mean "instead?" I was in favor of cancelling third-world debts since the day I first read in The Economist that there was an actual, if remote, possibility it might happen. That was several years back. Isn't it possible to both support that notion and also think Live 8 is a bunch of hooey and Bono should be shot off to Uranus? I see no contradiction!
posted by jfuller at 7:21 PM on July 2, 2005
Heh, even the Associated Press is bitching about the MTV coverage... Best Live 8 Viewing to Be Found Online "MTV's stable of correspondents spent more time talking about what a fantastic event it was instead of showing it."
posted by bobo123 at 8:24 PM on July 2, 2005
posted by bobo123 at 8:24 PM on July 2, 2005
Meccabilly -- we get it. You're better than we are because you're more righteously outraged. Congratulations.
clevershark, from the one post that you have put on this topic I think you will see that we totally agree about the subject - cancelling third world debt is not enough, we also have to help sort out the other problems.
I was simply responding to the apparent 'moral outrage' some people had against the Live8 concert.
Isn't it possible to both support that notion and also think Live 8 is a bunch of hooey and Bono should be shot off to Uranus? I see no contradiction!
I suppose it depends on your reason to support Live8...
posted by Meccabilly at 12:25 AM on July 3, 2005
clevershark, from the one post that you have put on this topic I think you will see that we totally agree about the subject - cancelling third world debt is not enough, we also have to help sort out the other problems.
I was simply responding to the apparent 'moral outrage' some people had against the Live8 concert.
Isn't it possible to both support that notion and also think Live 8 is a bunch of hooey and Bono should be shot off to Uranus? I see no contradiction!
I suppose it depends on your reason to support Live8...
posted by Meccabilly at 12:25 AM on July 3, 2005
It wasn't quite "20 years ago today"... LiveAid was July 13, 1985, as described so nicely in this song by John Wesley Harding.
posted by litlnemo at 3:19 AM on July 3, 2005
posted by litlnemo at 3:19 AM on July 3, 2005
You know: the concert tickets were free, the musicians and performers weren't paid. Everybody involved surely had something more lucrative to do with his and her time.
Personally, I wasn't near any live8 venue but I got to see a good 5 hours of snippets from all over the world (<3 for Pink Floyd and decent euro TV), so, overall I think this was good thing.
I gave my name, how about you?
posted by ruelle at 5:16 AM on July 3, 2005
Personally, I wasn't near any live8 venue but I got to see a good 5 hours of snippets from all over the world (<3 for Pink Floyd and decent euro TV), so, overall I think this was good thing.
I gave my name, how about you?
posted by ruelle at 5:16 AM on July 3, 2005
it's the channeling of protest into something non-challenging that i object to. it's protest-lite. the remarks/interviews i saw on it were beyond vacuous.
there are real issues, more important to africa's recovery that are not addressed by the organisers, because they don't want to annoy bush, blair et al.
climate change: this is already seriously affecting the poorest in africa and has major implications for food supply. the G8 aren't going to aknowledge the existence of global warming.
trade equality: a serious issue and long term development for africa is not possible without it. G8 will do nothing on this issue.
yes, i may be too cynical, but maccabilly, i'll wager i've spent a lot more time in africa, and in aid work, than you have.
posted by quarsan at 6:03 AM on July 3, 2005
there are real issues, more important to africa's recovery that are not addressed by the organisers, because they don't want to annoy bush, blair et al.
climate change: this is already seriously affecting the poorest in africa and has major implications for food supply. the G8 aren't going to aknowledge the existence of global warming.
trade equality: a serious issue and long term development for africa is not possible without it. G8 will do nothing on this issue.
yes, i may be too cynical, but maccabilly, i'll wager i've spent a lot more time in africa, and in aid work, than you have.
posted by quarsan at 6:03 AM on July 3, 2005
I found the misinformation in this thread (mainly from homodigitalis but also a few others) pretty depressing. So I went on a search for some resources to point to and stumbled across this quote:
By Asad Ismi. [pdf]
I'd go on about how the World Bank is continuing the 400 year history of the exploitation of Africa, and that in the face of its policies African nations have hardly had the resources or opportunities to "clean up their act," but Summers makes the point pretty effectively for me.
As for Live 8, I'm pretty much with quarsan on the protest-lite. What Africa needs from the North is trade equity, the freedom to control their own social spending, and downwards/inwards (to the people) accountablity for government, rather than upwards/outwards (to the IMF and World Bank) accountability. The possibility of achieving that through a concert seems pretty low.
posted by carmen at 8:19 AM on July 3, 2005
Just between you and me, shouldn’t the World Bank be encouraging more migration of the dirty industries to the LDCs [less-developed countries]?... I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that...I’ve always thought that underpopulated countries in Africa are vastly under-polluted, their air quality is probably vastly inefficiently low compared to Los Angeles or Mexico City...The concern over an agent that causes a one in a million change in the odds of prostrate cancer is obviously going to be much higher in a country where people survive to get prostrate cancer than in a country where under 5 mortality is 200 per thousand...The problem with the arguments against all of these proposals for more pollution in LDCs (intrinsic rights to certain goods, moral reasons, social concerns, lack of adequate markets, etc.) could be turned around and used more or less effectively against every Bank proposal for liberalization.from the report Impoverishing a Continent: The World Bank and the IMF in Africa
– Lawrence H. Summers, chief economist of the World Bank, in an internal memo dated December 12, 1991. Summers went on to become the U.S. Treasury Secretary in the Clinton Administration as well as president of Harvard University.
By Asad Ismi. [pdf]
I'd go on about how the World Bank is continuing the 400 year history of the exploitation of Africa, and that in the face of its policies African nations have hardly had the resources or opportunities to "clean up their act," but Summers makes the point pretty effectively for me.
As for Live 8, I'm pretty much with quarsan on the protest-lite. What Africa needs from the North is trade equity, the freedom to control their own social spending, and downwards/inwards (to the people) accountablity for government, rather than upwards/outwards (to the IMF and World Bank) accountability. The possibility of achieving that through a concert seems pretty low.
posted by carmen at 8:19 AM on July 3, 2005
> a celebrity wankfest
You can't say that/whathaveyoudoneforafricanyway/your cynicism kills a child every three minutes. Like this *clicks fingers* and didn't you see how cool Cameron Diaz looked when doing that, and Sir Geldof, with his concerned rocker pose, and even those who had said they weren't going to play because it was a celebrity wankfest ended up in the video clicking their fingers too. Aww. Click a finger, and Africans will be so grateful!
More unforgivable cynicism:
You can't say that/whathaveyoudoneforafricanyway/your cynicism kills a child every three minutes. Like this *clicks fingers* and didn't you see how cool Cameron Diaz looked when doing that, and Sir Geldof, with his concerned rocker pose, and even those who had said they weren't going to play because it was a celebrity wankfest ended up in the video clicking their fingers too. Aww. Click a finger, and Africans will be so grateful!
More unforgivable cynicism:
The two musicians are genuinely committed to the cause of poverty reduction. ... The problem is that they have assumed the role of arbiters: of determining on our behalf whether the leaders of the G8 nations should be congratulated or condemned for the decisions they make. They are not qualified to do so, and I fear that they will sell us down the river.Yet more unforgivable cynicism:
Take their response to the debt-relief package for the world's poorest countries that the G7 finance ministers announced 10 days ago. Anyone with a grasp of development politics who had read and understood the ministers' statement could see that the conditions it contains - enforced liberalisation and privatisation - are as onerous as the debts it relieves. But Bob Geldof praised it as "a victory for the millions of people in the campaigns around the world" and Bono pronounced it "a little piece of history". Like many of those who have been trying to highlight the harm done by such conditions - especially the African campaigners I know - I feel betrayed by these statements. Bono and Geldof have made our job more difficult.
I understand the game they're playing. They believe that praising the world's most powerful men is more persuasive than criticising them. The problem is that in doing so they turn the political campaign developed by the global justice movement into a philanthropic one. They urge the G8 leaders to do more to help the poor. But they say nothing about ceasing to do harm.
They say the message is justice not charity, trade not aid, but that's not what we saw on our screens. Show not tell, guys, as any novice novelist knows. You could have shown us the talent, the experience, the beauty, the variety. "Africa" is not just one tiddly little homogenous place, you know - Mali is not Uganda, Zambia is not Nigeria, and if there's one thing Africa is not short of, it is outstanding musical talent. But the image we were given, the non-verbal message coming over loud and clear, was this: African people - starving, dying, grateful, in the background; white people: generous, sympathetic, pleased with themselves, showing off. Oh, and feeding off black talent, as ever.posted by funambulist at 11:55 AM on July 3, 2005
Well funambulist, your second hand opinions have convinced me. Well done, you are providing an intelligent and well written argument by proxy.
I now accept that Live8 has done more harm then good and Bono and Geldof are now even richer... their plan has succeeded...
Or is that to glib and cynical... or not cynical enough. I have trouble deciding.
So tell me all you people out there who are against Live8 - what should Bob Geldof have done instead. It must involve the 200,000,000 people who watched Live8 and be more effective at making the world a happier place.
posted by Meccabilly at 12:19 PM on July 3, 2005
I now accept that Live8 has done more harm then good and Bono and Geldof are now even richer... their plan has succeeded...
Or is that to glib and cynical... or not cynical enough. I have trouble deciding.
So tell me all you people out there who are against Live8 - what should Bob Geldof have done instead. It must involve the 200,000,000 people who watched Live8 and be more effective at making the world a happier place.
posted by Meccabilly at 12:19 PM on July 3, 2005
Its not like the whole poverty issue will be helped by Live8 alone, but i really don't see what people have against it.
What should have happened instead?
posted by Meccabilly at 12:24 PM on July 3, 2005
What should have happened instead?
posted by Meccabilly at 12:24 PM on July 3, 2005
Meccabilly: I'm not trying to "convince" anyone and wasn't even putting forth any argument, only quoting from two articles that would seem to fall under that criticism of Saint Geldof's initiative that is apparently taboo.
If quoting is "second-hand opinions", then what is with this acceptance at face value of the dogma that "oh at least they're doing something"? Like what?
If they wanted to do charity, even if charity is not a substitute for political action, at least they could be raising money to build facilities and start programmes that are actually going to be used. Like, focus on actual practical goals that can be implemented, verified, and followed up. It's not like no one has done anything in that respect before Geldof came along, you know. Instead, they've been coddling up to politicians and dismissing the protests against the policies they are enacting. People were getting beaten up by police at the G8 years ago while Bono & Geldof were busy shaking hands with the 'world leaders'. They are out of their depth and even if they are well-intentioned they are being used as puppets, at best.
I'm not going to get into any discussion on development policies, aid, the G8 and what it represents, the Live8 and what it represents, and poverty in Africa, as I don't believe those are topics that can be addressed with some prepackaged formula or gestures or slogans and wristbands made with cheap labour (which was one of the many ironies of this whole thing).
But even the most "superficial" criticism is completely legitimate. There were many cringe-worthy moments about the whole affair, not least on stage.
You must be unaware that there has also been a lot of deeper criticism and unease from the very people and organisations that are actually working on those issues, and have been working on them for years. Personally I give more credit for knowing what they're talking about to people like Medecins sans Frontieres than to washed up millionaire rockstars and younger clueless acts in search of publicity. If this is cynicism, than we have different paradigms of reality.
posted by funambulist at 2:30 PM on July 3, 2005
If quoting is "second-hand opinions", then what is with this acceptance at face value of the dogma that "oh at least they're doing something"? Like what?
If they wanted to do charity, even if charity is not a substitute for political action, at least they could be raising money to build facilities and start programmes that are actually going to be used. Like, focus on actual practical goals that can be implemented, verified, and followed up. It's not like no one has done anything in that respect before Geldof came along, you know. Instead, they've been coddling up to politicians and dismissing the protests against the policies they are enacting. People were getting beaten up by police at the G8 years ago while Bono & Geldof were busy shaking hands with the 'world leaders'. They are out of their depth and even if they are well-intentioned they are being used as puppets, at best.
I'm not going to get into any discussion on development policies, aid, the G8 and what it represents, the Live8 and what it represents, and poverty in Africa, as I don't believe those are topics that can be addressed with some prepackaged formula or gestures or slogans and wristbands made with cheap labour (which was one of the many ironies of this whole thing).
But even the most "superficial" criticism is completely legitimate. There were many cringe-worthy moments about the whole affair, not least on stage.
You must be unaware that there has also been a lot of deeper criticism and unease from the very people and organisations that are actually working on those issues, and have been working on them for years. Personally I give more credit for knowing what they're talking about to people like Medecins sans Frontieres than to washed up millionaire rockstars and younger clueless acts in search of publicity. If this is cynicism, than we have different paradigms of reality.
posted by funambulist at 2:30 PM on July 3, 2005
Of course I have to admit that some critisism is valid. I am not saying that the whole thing is flawless. There was indeed a scandal about the wristbands and that should be investigated.
I was simply attempting to balance the argument that was being presented on this thread.
Indeed Medecins sans Frontieres is a worthy cause, greater then most.
I was simply trying to counter balance those who beleive that Live8 is without merit and a waste of time or worse making the situation worse.
posted by Meccabilly at 3:04 PM on July 3, 2005
I was simply attempting to balance the argument that was being presented on this thread.
Indeed Medecins sans Frontieres is a worthy cause, greater then most.
I was simply trying to counter balance those who beleive that Live8 is without merit and a waste of time or worse making the situation worse.
posted by Meccabilly at 3:04 PM on July 3, 2005
what should Bob Geldof have done instead.
write a decent song for once in his life?
those who beleive that Live8 is without merit and a waste of time or worse making the situation worse.
waste of time, yes. a worse waste of time than watching the usual MTV pap, no. I am not a fan of the geriatric nostalgia thing that makes people swoon because fat, burned out ex stars like the Pink Floyd played together. and watching a true genius like Pete Townshend, well, after the kiddie porn thing is just plain creepy. I can not remember a single act from Saturday that's worth remembering -- weak REM, uninspired U2, everybody going through the motions (even Richard Ashcroft -- he has the best pop song of the last 30 years, and he decides to sing it with desperately untalented, thin-voiced Chris Martin -- talk about pearls before swine.
and what about Elton John? Mariah Carey?
on the other hand, I was glad to see Bjork (even if she was shamefully ignored by the Japanese -- 10,000 in audience? wtf?). Stereophonics could have done worse. same for Audioslave -- Morello delivers.
but it was an eerily unremarkable concert.
don't be afraid, though, Maccabilly, in 2025 Geldof in a wheelchair, a Parkinsonian Bono and the ghost of Paul McCartney will give us another occasion for feeling all self-righteous and trying to save what will then be the 20-million population of the African continent. make poverty history indeed.
posted by matteo at 1:51 AM on July 4, 2005
write a decent song for once in his life?
those who beleive that Live8 is without merit and a waste of time or worse making the situation worse.
waste of time, yes. a worse waste of time than watching the usual MTV pap, no. I am not a fan of the geriatric nostalgia thing that makes people swoon because fat, burned out ex stars like the Pink Floyd played together. and watching a true genius like Pete Townshend, well, after the kiddie porn thing is just plain creepy. I can not remember a single act from Saturday that's worth remembering -- weak REM, uninspired U2, everybody going through the motions (even Richard Ashcroft -- he has the best pop song of the last 30 years, and he decides to sing it with desperately untalented, thin-voiced Chris Martin -- talk about pearls before swine.
and what about Elton John? Mariah Carey?
on the other hand, I was glad to see Bjork (even if she was shamefully ignored by the Japanese -- 10,000 in audience? wtf?). Stereophonics could have done worse. same for Audioslave -- Morello delivers.
but it was an eerily unremarkable concert.
don't be afraid, though, Maccabilly, in 2025 Geldof in a wheelchair, a Parkinsonian Bono and the ghost of Paul McCartney will give us another occasion for feeling all self-righteous and trying to save what will then be the 20-million population of the African continent. make poverty history indeed.
posted by matteo at 1:51 AM on July 4, 2005
Too many arguments. Too much blablabla.
Too little ACTION. That must be something from electronic music or maybe R&B. Roll'n'roll is *a little less conversation a little more action*.
200,000 people in London? 200,000 in Scotland? 250,000 in Philadelphia? 1 billion on tv? Oh, I see, and YOU - more than U2, Annie Lennox, Green Day, Paul McCartney, Annie Lennox, Stevie Wonder, Pink Floyd, The Who, Sting - know what Bob Geldfod should have done.
This is not even arguments, it's a pathology.
posted by nandop at 4:46 AM on July 4, 2005
Too little ACTION. That must be something from electronic music or maybe R&B. Roll'n'roll is *a little less conversation a little more action*.
200,000 people in London? 200,000 in Scotland? 250,000 in Philadelphia? 1 billion on tv? Oh, I see, and YOU - more than U2, Annie Lennox, Green Day, Paul McCartney, Annie Lennox, Stevie Wonder, Pink Floyd, The Who, Sting - know what Bob Geldfod should have done.
This is not even arguments, it's a pathology.
posted by nandop at 4:46 AM on July 4, 2005
This is starting to sound familiar. 'What would you have done instead' - where it's simply accepted as undisputable truth that what was done was amazing & great, and if you don't agree it's up to you to provide an alternative, for what exactly, is not known, but the important thing is that no one should question any motives and outcomes that are being put forth as unquestionably good and effective, right?
That that is a risky way of thinking, should be obvious to anyone by now.
> Roll'n'roll is *a little less conversation a little more action*.
Bah! What did Elvis ever do for Africa, anyway? :p
nandop, the question is not "what should Geldof have done" but "who is Geldof to take on the politician-prophet-lobbyist role, and in whose name"? Who is he speaking for, exactly?
I have no problem with millionaire rockstars who give away their own money for any charity cause, or who invite others to contribute their money for any cause.
But when someone takes on a political role just by virtue of being a rockstar, and establishes for everyone that we should treat our elected politicians like kings we should praise and beg from, and avoid criticising their policies otherwise they may not feel so generous, and then tells everyone that a rock concert is an historical even capable of changing the world and coincidentally stages that concert at the same time when actual protests were being organised, protests he has repeteadly dismissed as "hijacking" his own cause, a cause whose actual practical impact is also not even questioned, and those questioning it are dismissed or ignored as naysayers even if they're organisations and people who are actually involved in doing the work in those areas, African organisations included, well, it is a *bit* different.
posted by funambulist at 7:41 AM on July 4, 2005
That that is a risky way of thinking, should be obvious to anyone by now.
> Roll'n'roll is *a little less conversation a little more action*.
Bah! What did Elvis ever do for Africa, anyway? :p
nandop, the question is not "what should Geldof have done" but "who is Geldof to take on the politician-prophet-lobbyist role, and in whose name"? Who is he speaking for, exactly?
I have no problem with millionaire rockstars who give away their own money for any charity cause, or who invite others to contribute their money for any cause.
But when someone takes on a political role just by virtue of being a rockstar, and establishes for everyone that we should treat our elected politicians like kings we should praise and beg from, and avoid criticising their policies otherwise they may not feel so generous, and then tells everyone that a rock concert is an historical even capable of changing the world and coincidentally stages that concert at the same time when actual protests were being organised, protests he has repeteadly dismissed as "hijacking" his own cause, a cause whose actual practical impact is also not even questioned, and those questioning it are dismissed or ignored as naysayers even if they're organisations and people who are actually involved in doing the work in those areas, African organisations included, well, it is a *bit* different.
posted by funambulist at 7:41 AM on July 4, 2005
everybody is trying to say something "smarter" than what everybody did saturday. bullshit. it was not geldof alone, is it that difficult to understand? he was someone who put his ass on the window to lead this great concert. bono ordered him to do it.
funambulist: Geldof is somebody that deserved the trust of U2, Paul McCartney, Madonna, Annie Lennox, Sting, Stevie Wonder, Jamiroquai, Pink Floyd (reunited, and that's not anything), The Who, Green Day, Will Smith, Coldplay, Elton John, REM, Audioslave, Neil Young, The Cure, etc etc etc. Who are you to criticize that? Who trusted you? Who did you unite until today? You have the freedom to say it, of course, but you have no authority and you are demonstrating no respect for an initiative like that.
is it an initiative to fake anything else than a great concert for make poverty history? bob was just after fame? oh c'mon, you gotta be kiddin me.
thank God, thank Geldof, thank everybody.
posted by nandop at 8:10 AM on July 4, 2005
funambulist: Geldof is somebody that deserved the trust of U2, Paul McCartney, Madonna, Annie Lennox, Sting, Stevie Wonder, Jamiroquai, Pink Floyd (reunited, and that's not anything), The Who, Green Day, Will Smith, Coldplay, Elton John, REM, Audioslave, Neil Young, The Cure, etc etc etc. Who are you to criticize that? Who trusted you? Who did you unite until today? You have the freedom to say it, of course, but you have no authority and you are demonstrating no respect for an initiative like that.
is it an initiative to fake anything else than a great concert for make poverty history? bob was just after fame? oh c'mon, you gotta be kiddin me.
thank God, thank Geldof, thank everybody.
posted by nandop at 8:10 AM on July 4, 2005
protests he has repeatedly dismissed as "hijacking" his own cause
Actually the protests are his own cause
You appear to continually misrepresent the situation to fit your opinions about Live8, yet when you are challenged on what you think should have been done instead of Live8 you don't appear to have an alternative.
If you are against Live8, then what should those involved have put their energies into instead?
If you don't have an alternative then that's cool. If you think that everyone should have stayed at home instead or watched something else on TV then thats all fine, just say so.
If however you do have an alternative I for one would love to hear it.
posted by Meccabilly at 8:11 AM on July 4, 2005
Actually the protests are his own cause
You appear to continually misrepresent the situation to fit your opinions about Live8, yet when you are challenged on what you think should have been done instead of Live8 you don't appear to have an alternative.
If you are against Live8, then what should those involved have put their energies into instead?
If you don't have an alternative then that's cool. If you think that everyone should have stayed at home instead or watched something else on TV then thats all fine, just say so.
If however you do have an alternative I for one would love to hear it.
posted by Meccabilly at 8:11 AM on July 4, 2005
I was at the Canadian concert in Barrie. What I saw there was thousands of people being made aware - or more aware - of an important issue they wouldn't have heard or cared about otherwise. They saw artists they admire and respect telling them to add their voice and support to the cause...and I think that makes it sink in just a little deeper.
Millions more got the same message by watching the TV broadcast.
That all this happened can only have positive results. Education of everyday people is the most powerful tool against *all* of the causes of hunger and poverty. All of the artists and organizers - especially Geldof - have my gratitude and respect for what they did on Saturday.
posted by rocket88 at 8:48 AM on July 4, 2005
Millions more got the same message by watching the TV broadcast.
That all this happened can only have positive results. Education of everyday people is the most powerful tool against *all* of the causes of hunger and poverty. All of the artists and organizers - especially Geldof - have my gratitude and respect for what they did on Saturday.
posted by rocket88 at 8:48 AM on July 4, 2005
If you are against Live8, then what should those involved have put their energies into instead?
Plus, Meccabilly: one alternative doesn't eliminate the other. Let's have Live8 (WE HAD IT!) and let's have the alternative(s). It's a cause that deserve every kind of try.
In fact, it's not a cause, it's a fact, for God's sake. A fact. We have a situation going worse each day. While we buy tube tickets for the week, while we fill out the comment box in Metafilter there are children dying and the Aids situation getting worse. You don't know what is that what's that until you SEE it. Then perhaps you'll start FEELING it.
posted by nandop at 9:19 AM on July 4, 2005
Plus, Meccabilly: one alternative doesn't eliminate the other. Let's have Live8 (WE HAD IT!) and let's have the alternative(s). It's a cause that deserve every kind of try.
In fact, it's not a cause, it's a fact, for God's sake. A fact. We have a situation going worse each day. While we buy tube tickets for the week, while we fill out the comment box in Metafilter there are children dying and the Aids situation getting worse. You don't know what is that what's that until you SEE it. Then perhaps you'll start FEELING it.
posted by nandop at 9:19 AM on July 4, 2005
nandop: are you kidding? You do know that citizens of any country do have all the rights and in fact the duty to have a say on any policies their governments implement, on anything including foreign aid and global economic policies? Or do you think you have to be a millionare rockstar for that? Come on, dude. No offence, but that's celebrity cult at its most shameless.
Since Geldof & Co. have appointed themselves as spokesmen for the good intentions of our political leaders, I reserve my right to view them accordingly.
I don't live in a world where any of those celebrities have more "authority" than any ordinary voting taxpayer who hasn't wiggled their ass on a stage.
And they definitely have no more knowledge and no more authority on the issues they've appointed themselves to preach about than the people and organisations who have been working on those issues for years.
How about reading up a bit on the criticism Geldof & co. got from those quarters, if you so mistrust the ordinary person who doesn't have a millionaire bank account and doesn't hang out with Madonna?
- Meccabilly: see, what did I say about this "but you don't have an alternative" sounding soo familiar, like, cast your mind back a couple of years...
Alternative to what, exactly? To rock shows? To rich white people feeling all good and righteous about exhibiting their paternalistic "awareness" of poverty in Africa, for awareness's sake? Or to actual political action against poverty and other real issues in some parts of Africa?
Are you saying that outside of the Live8 organisers - and of course we're using "Geldof" for short since he's the most visible spokesman, yes I know it's not just him, thanks - are the first and only people in the world to have ever spoken of these issues of global economic policies and justice? No you can't be saying that because it'd be ridiculous. Come on.
As for the 'hijacking' comments - see the criticism from the anti-G8 protesters:
Also:
posted by funambulist at 9:51 AM on July 4, 2005
Since Geldof & Co. have appointed themselves as spokesmen for the good intentions of our political leaders, I reserve my right to view them accordingly.
I don't live in a world where any of those celebrities have more "authority" than any ordinary voting taxpayer who hasn't wiggled their ass on a stage.
And they definitely have no more knowledge and no more authority on the issues they've appointed themselves to preach about than the people and organisations who have been working on those issues for years.
How about reading up a bit on the criticism Geldof & co. got from those quarters, if you so mistrust the ordinary person who doesn't have a millionaire bank account and doesn't hang out with Madonna?
- Meccabilly: see, what did I say about this "but you don't have an alternative" sounding soo familiar, like, cast your mind back a couple of years...
Alternative to what, exactly? To rock shows? To rich white people feeling all good and righteous about exhibiting their paternalistic "awareness" of poverty in Africa, for awareness's sake? Or to actual political action against poverty and other real issues in some parts of Africa?
Are you saying that outside of the Live8 organisers - and of course we're using "Geldof" for short since he's the most visible spokesman, yes I know it's not just him, thanks - are the first and only people in the world to have ever spoken of these issues of global economic policies and justice? No you can't be saying that because it'd be ridiculous. Come on.
As for the 'hijacking' comments - see the criticism from the anti-G8 protesters:
Shortly after Bob Geldof called for a million people to converge in Edinburgh for the opening day of the G8 summit, Midge Ure, the co-organizer of Live 8, was asked if he was worried about the events being hijacked by anarchists. His response was that Live 8 was, in fact, hijacking the anarchists' event. There is more than a little truth in this statement. What is becoming increasingly clear, however, is that Blair and Brown, in turn, are trying to do something similar with the Live 8 and Make Poverty History campaigns.Also, for those without a short memory, during the 2001 G8 in Italy, Geldof and Bono dismissed hundreds of thousands of protesters by tarring them all with the brush of thugs responsible for the riots, and they were having drinks and caviar with the G8 leaders, including a fresh-out-of-razing-Grozny-to-the-ground Putin, in the no-entry zone, while dozens of people who had not participated in the violence - which was done only by a "select" few that the police left well alone - were being rounded up, beaten up, detained unlawfully for days. Not a peep from Saint Bob on this, not only, he ignored the police abuse and blamed the whole mess on protesters. So endearing.
Also:
For the past six months, some of the UK’s leading development and environmental NGOs have expressed their unease about a campaign high on celebrity octane but low on radical politics. One insider, active in a key MPH working group, argues there is a divergence between the democratically agreed message of the campaign and the spin that greets the outside world: ‘Our real demands on trade, aid and debt, and our criticisms of UK government policy in developing countries have been consistently swallowed up by white bands, celebrity luvvies and praise upon praise for Blair and Brown.’And here's an interesting exploiration of the question "Isn't it better to do something rather than give in to cynicism and do nothing?"
... The problem, however, is that when these policies are relayed to a public audience, they become virtually indistinguishable from those of the UK government. This was brought home back in March this year when Blair’s Commission for Africa set out its own very different proposals on Africa but under the identical headlines used by MPH – ‘trade justice’, ‘drop the debt’ and ‘more and better aid’. In return, most MPH members, led by Oxfam and the TUC, warmly welcomed the report’s recommendations. African activists and many MPH members have a different view
The question, rather, is one of balancing the positive accomplishments of aid programmes against the effects of that work being exploited by government or rebel authorities. Relief agencies routinely operate in places where governments or insurgents kill their own people. Yet it is one thing to accept that NGOs can never control the environment in which they operate and quite another to participate in a great crime like the resettlement, even if the purpose of that participation is to try to mitigate its effects. The truth is that the Dergue's resettlement policy - of moving 600,000 people from the north while enforcing the "villagisation" of three million others - was at least in part a military campaign, masquerading as a humanitarian effort. And it was assisted by western aid money.There, you can do some reading now. Even if you're going to keep viewing Geldof & friends' efforts as a good thing - and that's your prerogative, just as it's mine to have a different take - it's no harm to try and question that assumption by taking in some facts and contrasting views.
... Geldof has proclaimed that Live 8 is about "social justice, not charity". That is certainly an improvement from the simplicities of the original Live Aid. But simplicities still abound. Showing a film from Ethiopia in 1985 at a press conference, Geldof said the famine was "still going on". He also insisted that "the G8 leaders have it within their power to alter history". It would be great if it were that simple, just as it would have been great if the effect of Live Aid on the ground in Ethiopia had been simple, or entirely benign. But it wasn't true then and, though the Dergue is mercifully gone, it isn't true now.
posted by funambulist at 9:51 AM on July 4, 2005
It's alright the way it is. Everybody is doing what they can, Bob Geldof is doing Live8, funambulist is blablabla (what are all those paragraphs, for God's sake - at their best they just point to "worries" or "tries"). How fair.
Yes, under the pale paper of law, you have the same legal authority as Bob Geldof. Everyone does. But I'm talking about REAL authority, the authority that means power beyond legal, that one that makes people walk in the steps of Mahatma Gandhi (know this one?). That kind of authority that means RESPECT. U2 is not only a celebrity, it's an artist with history of actions, excellency in art and wide popular approval. Celebrity is just a way for you to diminish what they are and what they did. Again, showing NO RESPECT.
The truth is still with the facts: the children dying and the Aids situation getting worse. Can we do something about it? Can we help someone who can do something about? Or do you have another brand new excuse?
posted by nandop at 10:52 AM on July 4, 2005
Yes, under the pale paper of law, you have the same legal authority as Bob Geldof. Everyone does. But I'm talking about REAL authority, the authority that means power beyond legal, that one that makes people walk in the steps of Mahatma Gandhi (know this one?). That kind of authority that means RESPECT. U2 is not only a celebrity, it's an artist with history of actions, excellency in art and wide popular approval. Celebrity is just a way for you to diminish what they are and what they did. Again, showing NO RESPECT.
The truth is still with the facts: the children dying and the Aids situation getting worse. Can we do something about it? Can we help someone who can do something about? Or do you have another brand new excuse?
posted by nandop at 10:52 AM on July 4, 2005
nandop, we're all doing blablabla here, on the internet, posting away. Like standing in a field listening to Dido is political action. But anyway. As to "those paragraphs", they're from articles that are linked. If you're interested, you're supposed to click on the link and read the page it takes you to, in full. If you're not interested, just don't bother. Simple as that.
Celebrity, respect, yeah yeah, you're putting Bono Geldof and Ghandi in the same sentence, I don't think we share the same reality space here, so better leave it at that. What can I say? Only Prophet Geldof can save the children.
Now, enough with the heavy talk, let's look at one tangible benefit of the Live8, yay!
Pink Floy CD sales are up 1,343 per cent!
The Who: up 863 per cent!
(extra benefit: Townshend's encouter of the third kind with anti-child-porn laws by now archived in the memory hole)
"It's likely this impact will become more pronounced throughout the week, as more fans and record buyers respond to the combined effect of the weekend's televised event, the G8 summit and all the ensuing publicity."
Also, sharp increase in sales of absolutely useless wristbands made from cheap labour! Double yay! Africans celebrate!
*groan*
posted by funambulist at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2005
Celebrity, respect, yeah yeah, you're putting Bono Geldof and Ghandi in the same sentence, I don't think we share the same reality space here, so better leave it at that. What can I say? Only Prophet Geldof can save the children.
Now, enough with the heavy talk, let's look at one tangible benefit of the Live8, yay!
Pink Floy CD sales are up 1,343 per cent!
The Who: up 863 per cent!
(extra benefit: Townshend's encouter of the third kind with anti-child-porn laws by now archived in the memory hole)
"It's likely this impact will become more pronounced throughout the week, as more fans and record buyers respond to the combined effect of the weekend's televised event, the G8 summit and all the ensuing publicity."
Also, sharp increase in sales of absolutely useless wristbands made from cheap labour! Double yay! Africans celebrate!
*groan*
posted by funambulist at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2005
I'll get back here Wednesday, ok? Just because I care.
(I never said ONLY Geldof can save the children, stop playing dumb, oh my God, it's a neverending game! how smart! how full of action!)
Enough of blablabla (that's the one and only point I agree with you! let's party!). I'll take the lead, will let you the final word (that's peace). I made my point. Wish you more love in your heart. But I wish much more love and help for those children, remember them? REMEMBER THEM??? You know lot of worries about Geldof, but you don't seem to have any worry (or ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!) for the children. Not even to wear one of those highly dangerous criminal whitebands. Boooh!
Wish I could stay here to put every argument down, but in the end, the love take is equal the love you make. (am i a romantic beatlemaniac or what?). So... what's all we need?
For the kids, I leave.
posted by nandop at 12:42 PM on July 4, 2005
(I never said ONLY Geldof can save the children, stop playing dumb, oh my God, it's a neverending game! how smart! how full of action!)
Enough of blablabla (that's the one and only point I agree with you! let's party!). I'll take the lead, will let you the final word (that's peace). I made my point. Wish you more love in your heart. But I wish much more love and help for those children, remember them? REMEMBER THEM??? You know lot of worries about Geldof, but you don't seem to have any worry (or ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!) for the children. Not even to wear one of those highly dangerous criminal whitebands. Boooh!
Wish I could stay here to put every argument down, but in the end, the love take is equal the love you make. (am i a romantic beatlemaniac or what?). So... what's all we need?
For the kids, I leave.
posted by nandop at 12:42 PM on July 4, 2005
Peace and love, sister/brother nandop, peace and love. I'll agree to disagree, for the sake of the children in Africa, who will no doubt be comforted by your plastic wristbands and your three question marks outrage. If that's action, no I'm not doing any of that. You don't know anything about me, I don't know anything about you, let's start a contest about who buys most fair trade products and uses solar panels and donates more clothes to Oxfam, shall we? Come on.
Look, this is a discussion on a public event, I don't have *anything personal* against you or anyone who enjoyed the shows and/or like the Geldof and the Bono and all their friends and supporters and allies. It's this outrage at questioning and criticism of their approach to political and economic issues , that I find absurd. Like it's some kind of religious heresy. You don't have to agree with any of that criticism to acknowledge it is perfectly legitimate. As criticism always is, in a democracy.
Be a love-is-all-you-need romantic in your private life, by all means. Never, ever trust at face value anything that has to do with political and economic strategies with a global impact, that is well beyond the scope of any online discussion.
Cheers, and no harm intended.
posted by funambulist at 2:25 PM on July 4, 2005
Look, this is a discussion on a public event, I don't have *anything personal* against you or anyone who enjoyed the shows and/or like the Geldof and the Bono and all their friends and supporters and allies. It's this outrage at questioning and criticism of their approach to political and economic issues , that I find absurd. Like it's some kind of religious heresy. You don't have to agree with any of that criticism to acknowledge it is perfectly legitimate. As criticism always is, in a democracy.
Be a love-is-all-you-need romantic in your private life, by all means. Never, ever trust at face value anything that has to do with political and economic strategies with a global impact, that is well beyond the scope of any online discussion.
Cheers, and no harm intended.
posted by funambulist at 2:25 PM on July 4, 2005
Ok, it's Friday. But I came back. Here I am, as promised.
What do you need to read, funambulist:
G8 leaders agree big aid boost for Africa
Peace&Love.
posted by nandop at 9:49 AM on July 8, 2005
What do you need to read, funambulist:
G8 leaders agree big aid boost for Africa
Peace&Love.
posted by nandop at 9:49 AM on July 8, 2005
« Older Fun Food | Jihad U Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
It's gonna be a great big global cultural event. London, Philadelphia, Tokyo, Barrie (Canada), Joburg, Paris, Berlin, Moscow and, er, Cornwall.
Loads of folks are blogging live. And I hope you all enjoy it.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:48 AM on July 2, 2005