Evil, Hateful and Wrong

July 9, 2005 9:18 PM

Woman Jailed for Child Abuse - With a Twist "The young girl and her mother are now trying to rebuild their lives after an 18-month campaign of harassment by Kathryn Skinner, the woman they thought was a trusted family friend. Skinner, now 40, spiked children's drinks at birthday parties and put razor blades in school bags and lockers so her friend's daughter would get the blame."
posted by echolalia67 (54 comments total)

Maybe I just missed it but I didn't see a discussion of motive in any of the three articles. What could it have been?
posted by oddman at 9:37 PM on July 9, 2005

Oh my god, that poor little girl.
posted by youarejustalittleant at 9:38 PM on July 9, 2005

I keep reading accounts on how female aggression differs from male aggression, especially the manipulative angle. But this is beyond description. I really want to know why this woman was so focused on persecuting the girl.
posted by clockworkjoe at 9:40 PM on July 9, 2005

Holy hell, this is terrible.

Three years in jail? That girl's going to be traumatized for life. Poor kid probably thought she actually was doing those things and just didn't know it.

I'm with oddman: why would someone do this?
posted by jenovus at 9:40 PM on July 9, 2005

Seriously, though: to have adults shouting at her, "You did this, you DID THIS, WHY DID YOU DO THIS," I wonder how long it was before "she became so confused she ended up admitting things which she was completely innocent of."
posted by jenovus at 9:44 PM on July 9, 2005

It seems somewhat reminiscent of Munchausen By Proxy - perp basks in the reflected attention upon the child, only in this case it's not "What a brave, loving mother you are to your sick child", but " What a kind decent friend you are to this family with such a deeply disturbed child."
posted by echolalia67 at 9:47 PM on July 9, 2005

Yeah, she's wicked alright. Fairy tale wicked even. But I have to wonder how the parents could have so little faith in their kid that they bought into this woman's bullshit for eighteen months.

And I can't help but note the irony of Ms. Krazy's name.
posted by crumbly at 9:48 PM on July 9, 2005

Oh, and could that second article have been more redundant?

It was really redundant.
posted by crumbly at 9:51 PM on July 9, 2005

damn ... that is really fucked up ... i can't even begin to comprehend this ...
posted by pyramid termite at 9:52 PM on July 9, 2005

.
posted by blasdelf at 9:55 PM on July 9, 2005

I have to admit that the pure ridiculousness of these crimes made me giggle a little while reading the second article. Seems like something that would happen in a movie.
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:57 PM on July 9, 2005

Damn, I thought my elementary school career was tough, but I only had the teachers and other kids to deal with -- and I actually did at least half of what I was accused of, however unfair it might have been that I was singled out and disprortionately "made an example of". At least deep down inside I knew I was as right as anybody else. But this poor girl really was an innocent little lamb, which has got to be worse.

This bitch should be paid back, but with her personality I'm pretty sure the other prisoners will catch on to whatever shit she tries there and express their disapproval appropriately.

Oh, and crumbly: But I have to wonder how the parents could have so little faith in their kid that they bought into this woman's bullshit for eighteen months.

Ever heard of "respect for the guidelines"? "Don't make waves"? "Where there's smoke there's fire"? "Majority opinion rules the day"? If that's not clear enough I'm sure scarabic could explain it.

Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience that in my day if a teacher, a principal and a school counselor told parents their kid was "disruptive" and even "destructive" most would believe them and not the kid; in the contemporary U.S. the Ritalin prescription figures seem to indicate that that's still the case. Only when there's a question of Communism, Islamofascism or Pedophilia will most parents jump to side with their kids -- that is when the parents own prejudices are also called into play.
posted by davy at 10:14 PM on July 9, 2005

Crumbly: Fairy-tale wicked indeed. This is the second thread I've read today where I wonder if the person doesn't need psychiatry rather than punishment, but THIS one hits much more emotionally. One so wants to see this wicked witch punished for doing this to an innocent child that I can almost overlook the fact that what this woman did sounds as much like "madness" as "evil." Perhaps she's both mad AND evil.

But as to the parents, well, this a child of five or six isn't much beyond the age where a child will assert with a straight face that the cat must have opened the cupboard and eaten the cookies. A parent of any preschooler can become quite accustomed to relying on "obvious" logic and physical evidence rather than the child, because at this age, many children are still figuring out what truth IS. Looking for the child to have been "framed" by a practiced and malicious adult just isn't a standard parental response at the early stages -- when my daughter at that age colored all over the walls then said she had no idea how it happened, it prompted me to discuss the importance of truthfulness, not to hide cameras to catch the neighbor at it.

I'd LIKE to believe that somewhere along the line, I'd have said to myself "What if she's really telling the truth, and it isn't her," but by the time it got really bad, and an objective person might become suspicious, the parent is already locked into the mindset that the kid is to blame. I imagine the Mom is, at this point, tearing herself apart asking herself the very question that you raise, but I can't condemn her too much for falling into a insane and vicious trap set by an adult mind.
posted by tyllwin at 10:22 PM on July 9, 2005

When my kids where that young I think I would have been very suspicious of any friend getting that involved in my children’s problems. I do think the women needs treatment but I think it should be of the type that keeps her locked away from the rest of the world until she shows some major improvement. I realize that would take a lot of resources but I don’t think jail time will not stop this sort of behavior.
posted by arse_hat at 10:37 PM on July 9, 2005

What a terrible thing to do to that family. Poor girl.
posted by SisterHavana at 10:39 PM on July 9, 2005

Yeah, she's wicked alright. Fairy tale wicked even. But I have to wonder how the parents could have so little faith in their kid that they bought into this woman's bullshit for eighteen months.

The girl herself admited to doing these things. How much faith can you have in someone who dosn't even have faith in herself?

And yes, the sadistic cruelty displayed here is unlike anything I've heard of before.
posted by delmoi at 10:48 PM on July 9, 2005

Crumbly: Fairy-tale wicked indeed. This is the second thread I've read today where I wonder if the person doesn't need psychiatry rather than punishment, but THIS one hits much more emotionally. One so wants to see this wicked witch punished for doing this to an innocent child that I can almost overlook the fact that what this woman did sounds as much like "madness" as "evil." Perhaps she's both mad AND evil.

Is she crazy? Probably, maybe even 'fixable' but if she's so good at lying how would you ever know?

In any event, insanity gave her the compulsion to do this sort of thing, but it was inhumanity that let her follow through. She knew what she was doing.
posted by delmoi at 10:50 PM on July 9, 2005

Well said tyllwin.
The mind boggles. Sadistic doesn't even begin to cover it.
That is seriously fucked up.
posted by peacay at 10:52 PM on July 9, 2005

She slashed every curtain and 100 different items of clothing in the girl's home and even sabotaged electrical appliances with knives. [then planted razors in the girls bag]

Also, I wonder how they caught the worman? I suppose they must have caught her in the act, or if something happened while the girl was not around. Maybe they used cameras.
posted by delmoi at 10:56 PM on July 9, 2005

delmoi : Also, I wonder how they caught the worman? I suppose they must have caught her in the act, or if something happened while the girl was not around. Maybe they used cameras.

The woman confessed to her husband who then told the mother of the child.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:25 PM on July 9, 2005

I guess the flavor of mental illness at work here has the same roots as Munchausen By Proxy, as echolalia mentioned, as well as whatever motivates pryomaniac firefighters, etc. - attention and the apparent role of being a hero:

[the mother]: "Kathryn would be nice to my daughter and sit there watching, while I was telling my daughter off.

"I remember thinking she was better with my daughter than I was. "At the time I thought I couldn't have got through it without Kathryn's support. I even said to her 'it's so great you're still my friend after everything you have been through with my daughter.'
posted by taz at 11:42 PM on July 9, 2005

How did she manage to not get caught in the act? Breaking and slashing things in their house, planting things in the girl's locker at school, defacing stuff at the girl's school... It goes on and on.

Fairy tale evil powers go hand in hand with fairy tale wickedness.
posted by blasdelf at 11:53 PM on July 9, 2005

Is she crazy? Probably, maybe even 'fixable' but if she's so good at lying how would you ever know?

I don't know. Personally, I think that determining whether she's insane, or evil, or both, would be a lengthy and uncertain task even for someone with perception, brains, training and experience. What I do know is that Kathryn Skinner is a danger to others, and I doubt that three years in prison is going to remove that danger. If she's evil, it's not half enough -- the victim will be all of nine years old when she gets out. If she's insane, the punishment is useless.
posted by tyllwin at 12:02 AM on July 10, 2005

> the punishment is useless

I doubt that the family concerned feel that way about it. I imagine that they feel that it's reasonable retribution for the havoc inflicted, and the pain and suffering she visited on their innocent six year old daughter.

Obviously, she wasn't so insane that she wasn't aware of when the police noose was closing in, nor was she so thought disordered that she didn't make the calculation that a confession would probably make the consequences less severe than discovery. While her values and thought processes are surely different from that of most people, I don't think that that, in and of itself, counts as any kind of definable mental illness. A sociopathic personality disorder, perhaps, but the extent to which that counts as 'illness' is disputable.

She *will* get a hard time in prison though. Women's prisons are full of prisoners who, for various reasons, have lost their own children to the care system. A sense of loss/guilt over what happens to these children is often the dominant emotion in the lives of these women -- many of whom grew up in the care system themselves.

Whenever a prisoner is identified as having been convicted of any offence against a child, these women all start to imagine those offenses committed against *their* child, who they are no longer able to protect -- and thus they take up the cudgels on behalf of any children as an act of penance/duty.

In the days when chamber pots were still in use, such prisoners would regularly be covered in the piss and shit of every woman on her wing. Doubtless the treatment meted out today will be similarly grim.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:18 AM on July 10, 2005

From the third link: The girl's mother said afterwards: "What she did was inconceivable, it beggars belief."

Anyone who knows or has had the challenge of dealing with a person with clinical paranoia and\or a delusional personality disorder will find this very believable if not mild by comparison.

One question raised by the article(s), for me, is if Mrs. Skinner's behavior indicates the acting out of a violent psychosis, actual evil or, if there is really a difference between the two.
posted by johnj at 2:25 AM on July 10, 2005

It seems to me (absolutely unqualified as I am) that probably the suffering of the child was not the goal but a byproduct. I think the woman was completely indifferent to that aspect of her machinations, which is probably just about as good a definition of "evil" as any other.
posted by taz at 2:42 AM on July 10, 2005

As to a motive, I'd put money on envy. The child is the object of the envious feelings - maybe she perceived the child to be "perfect", and so wanted to destroy that image of perfection through blaming her own actions on the child. Or just to "get back" at the child for "making her feel miserable".

I believe that sane people can go "mad" with envy and lose all control of their senses. A lot of hate campaigns or bullying is based on envy (or jealousy - e.g. a colleague bullies another because they perceive they get more attention from others).
posted by FieldingGoodney at 2:50 AM on July 10, 2005

How did she eventually get caught, I wonder?
posted by ruelle at 6:11 AM on July 10, 2005

How did she eventually get caught, I wonder?
posted by ruelle at 9:11 AM EST on July 10 [!]

good question.
posted by Busithoth at 7:13 AM on July 10, 2005

oh jeesus, I need to wake up. Thanks for pointing that out Busithoth.
posted by ruelle at 7:30 AM on July 10, 2005

Interesting article echolalia67. The movie Gaslight comes to mind, in which the victim is systematically undermined and left to feel she is going insane and another excellent BBC series called Mother Love, in which a seemingly pleasant and genteel woman poisons children.

I agree with you that this sounds like some version of Munchausen's by Proxy. It's a twisted tale for sure.

Skinner first stole the 20 quid and then had the 6 year old scapegoated. I speculate that it may have triggered some sort of voyeuristic fascination for her, committing the acts of vandalism and observing the child being punished. Then there were the acts, such as planting fake letter in the bathroom, drugs and razor blades in the child's pockets, intended to ruin the child's reputation in school, wedging between any loving support network the child could have had, her friends, teachers, parents. The child would have become methodically isolated, publicly discredited and undermined, eventually doubting her own sanity as well as being doubted by everybody else. This character assassination and targeting of a child is the product of a person whose malice is highly strategic, a person with a mask of sanity.

In speculating as to the motivation Skinner might have used for her own behavior, the mother may have complained, as any mother can, that her child was difficult to manage; Skinner may have justified her actions as being helpful to the mother, in order to hoard the mother's attention for herself? Could that be why the mother cannot read Skinner's letter 'explaining' her actions, that she turned to Skinner for sympathy and Skinner got addicted to the role of playing wonderfully supportive friend i.e. the object of the mother's complete attention? The mother may have idealized Skinner as being especially understanding, superbly empathic and Skinner may have become compulsive about getting this idealization, narcissistic supply from the mother, while using the child being scapegoated to get this attention?

Reading this story reminds me of Patrick Carnes' book The Betrayal Bond, in part about how people become trauma-bonded in treacherous, exploitative relationships.

What's interesting to me is why Skinner confessed to her husband and to the mother. That implies some remorse, which it sounds from her pattern of sustained, relentless, calculating malice that she was incapable of having.

I hope this innocent child is able to recover to some manageable degree.
posted by nickyskye at 7:45 AM on July 10, 2005

when my daughter at that age colored all over the walls then said she had no idea how it happened, it prompted me to discuss the importance of truthfulness, not to hide cameras to catch the neighbor at it.

Er...

that was me.

I hate plain white walls.

Sorry to have used up most of her purple crayon, though. I'd have used my own, but it was worn down to a nub when I did the neighbour's walls.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:50 AM on July 10, 2005

Munchausen by Proxy.
posted by StickyCarpet at 9:34 AM on July 10, 2005

"The girl's mother says she wishes there had been more support from the social services and education authority rather than her daughter being blamed."

Who else but the parents were supposed to know and trust their child and offer her support rather than blame? How come they just accepted their daughter had turned into the child from hell? No suprise the girl is angry at her mother. Yes they were all victims of this sick manipulation, but the manipulation worked because it exploited this lack of trust for the child. The mother at least should have stood up for the poor kid from the start. There's a difference between children being difficult and something completely psycho like this. I can't believe she simply thought the kid would put razor blades in people's pockets and drop drugs in their drinks, at 6, for no reason at all, having shown no previous signs of the slightest misbehaviour.


From the bbc link: "At one point she was smacked and kept her in her room for nine days as punishment after her father's passport was slashed when he was about to go on holiday". This kind of punishment was decided by the parents. I doubt it was suggested by social services or the education authority.
posted by funambulist at 10:56 AM on July 10, 2005

IANAP , but maybe Skinner developed some hate either for the mother and the father of the children and choosed
to "punish" them both by harming their daughter knowing that by doing that she would have rendered their life
into an hellhole of suffering..guess this fits perfectly the definition of "passive-aggressive" behavior.


On preview:

The girl herself admited to doing these things. How much faith can you have in someone who dosn't even have faith in herself?

Delmoi, I guess the girl felt (in herself) pressured to regain parents attention and/or trust. I'm not sure about this, but my guess is she felt the parents were happy when she answered "yes it was me"..because if not literally scolding her (which is possible) they were prob telling her not to lie and making her feel "bad" even if not really volountarily, but out of ignorance.

See for instance tyllwin msg above, in which the daughter is nor scolded (I guess) not repressed for coloring the walls..but when her denial surface, the problem wasn't telling her not to color the wall or to explain her why not, but to avoid her being in denial of her action...and I'm no expert but tyllwin lecture (gentle I guess) to the daughter on the need to be truthful with parents is a very good idea.
posted by elpapacito at 11:03 AM on July 10, 2005

'The girl herself admited to doing these things'.
"My daughter told me that she thought she must be doing these things in her sleep."
Nobody raised a red flag here? What an awful, awful story. Wow.
posted by punilux at 11:50 AM on July 10, 2005

funambulist I agree with what you said. A creepy afterthought: What if Skinner was prompted by the mother's hatred of her own child? It does appear very strange to believe one's child all of a sudden could become A Bad Seed. Keeping a 6 or 7 year old child isolated for nine days in her room seems severe. At the very least, Skinner exploited a lack of the parents' trust in their child.

Man, that poor little kid, so cruelly ganged up on by so many. I hope she is helped by a decent therapist.
posted by nickyskye at 11:57 AM on July 10, 2005

When I was in grammar school. I was accused of screaming in the lunchroom one day (it wasn't me). I was sent to the principal's office (Catholic school, she was a nun, of course) and grilled for a couple of hours in an attempt to get me to admit the deed. But I was innocent, and I wouldn't give in. Eventually the real perpetrator confessed and I was sent back to class, without an apology.

There is nothiing worse than being a kid accused of something you didn't do, I really feel for this kid. As much as I hate lawyers, I hope she decides to be one someday and stand up for kids like herself.
posted by tommasz at 12:54 PM on July 10, 2005

This woman deserves life imprisonment- this is too "broken" to think she'll ever get better, or to even care. She's a waste of a human life, whatever led up to this; we're not talking a 19-year-old making one bad mistake, we're talking 18-months of unbelievable torture. If she had at any point touched the girl's genitals, we'd be collectively howling for her to be drawn and quartered. This is as bad if not far, far worse, than 'mere' sexual molestation.

As for the parents, maybe they *should* lose their daughter. RIght now, the daughter is really screwed up, and needs a lot of therapy, and clearly can't trust her parents, having a lot of hate for them right now- as well she should!!! nickskye makes a very interesting point: the parents seemed a little too eager to believe that their 6 year old had suddenly become Evil McSatan, that perhaps they were subconscious MBP types themselves. Maybe the healthiest thing for the girl is to be living with another family for a long while, if not all the way to adulthood. Someone who won't always have this baggage of "I totally and completely fucked up as a parent." How can they as parents ever discipline her again? How many ice cream sundaes could they buy to make this "all better"? It's not going to happen, and leaving the child with the two people in the world she should have most trusted, and the people who most betrayed her, is not helping at all.
posted by hincandenza at 1:33 PM on July 10, 2005

nickyskye: I wouldn't imagine it was necessarily hatred, I wouldn't want to infer as much! But, as far as we can judge from the story as reported, yes, seems there was severe lack of trust and excessive punishment.

Of course the maliciousness of the woman is the most upsetting thing, but I was frankly shocked to read about the nine-day confinement too. I can only hope it was a temporary over-reaction to the whole buildup of freaky stuff that was going on. Still, in terms of emotional over-reaction, I can sort of 'understand' the smacking more, bad as it is. You flip out, you hit the child, it sucks but it's just a moment of losing your cool after a series of crazy things. Not letting her out for nine days takes some more clear-headed intention than that. Even if she had been the one to destroy the passport, it was still wrong to do that to her. That's what bothers me. It's just a six-year old.

Anyway, it's hard to judge people's reactions in such a situation, what they went through was horrible. I can only hope the mother realises it's no good to pass the bucket to social services (which may have also played a role, but they weren't the ones living with the kid), and is able to offer more support to her girl now.
posted by funambulist at 1:47 PM on July 10, 2005

hincandenza: I disagree, removing the child from her family would be far too much in this case. It is not a light decision to take for a child so small, and I don't think the parents' actions, however excessive, amount to anything as terrible as to justify that kind of decision.

If they all get good support and counselling they can repair the broken trust. The girl does need to trust her parents again, as well as other people, and viceversa. Putting her in the care of strangers would only be extra trauma.

What a fucked up story, really.
posted by funambulist at 1:54 PM on July 10, 2005

There is nothing worse than being a kid accused of something you didn't do, You got that right Tommasz. Its funny, my experience with false accusation was also in catholic school. At least they didn't use the "pile-rocks-on-her, see-if-she-drowns" witch test on her.
posted by R. Mutt at 2:19 PM on July 10, 2005

Who else but the parents were supposed to know and trust their child and offer her support rather than blame?

Yes, but on the other hand -- how freakin' weird is the truth in this case? We're all taught to believe the simplest explanation in absence of any substantial proof, and it's much more likely that their kid has turned into the "child from hell" than that your friend has decided to go to all this effort to frame your kid for no readily apparent reason whatsoever.
posted by dagnyscott at 2:37 PM on July 10, 2005

There is nothing worse than being a kid accused of something you didn't do

A-men brother. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I went to a modern experimental school in which the kids had a lot of freedom and autonomy. One day I was accused of something I did not do. In a Lord of the Flies sense, I would have preferred a Catholic school to what I experienced -- a kangaroo court consisting of both students and teachers, with insults and abuse heaped without any moderation from the teachers. I later went and found the evidence that vindicated me entirely on my own -- I identified the real culprit, who confessed immediately. No one apologized to me, and the teachers would not even look at me. I wasn't traumatised by this but I spent the remainder of the schoolyear loathing and distrusting every single person in that school, and distrust both authority and mobs to this day. Pardon the personal story.
posted by George_Spiggott at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2005

It was wallpaper, fff, not plain white walls. So, it really wasn't you, was it?

There are better places to color than the walls, but that's not as important as telling the truth to your mom and me. We need to know that when you tell us something we can believe it, just like you need to know that when we tell you something, you can believe us.
posted by tyllwin at 5:04 PM on July 10, 2005

George_Spiggott, sorry you and others who shared about their being scapegoated went through that. As a kid I always wondered what a progressive boarding school might be like and wished I'd gone to one. Now, thanks to your post, I realise group bullying and scapegoating of innocent kids can, of course, take place in any environment.

It sounds like if you "spent the remainder of the school year loathing and distrusting every single person in that school, and distrust both authority and mobs to this day" you were, in fact, traumatised by that event.
posted by nickyskye at 5:10 PM on July 10, 2005

Nah. Not to make this about me or anything, but it was rather eye-opening and in retrospect I'd rather have had the experience than not, as I'm not scarred by it and I learned something. And I overstated the loathing part. The distrust of mobs and authority should be the default position for any thinking person.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:17 PM on July 10, 2005

You got me, tyllwin. The purple crayon wasn't worn to a nub 'cause I was colouring the walls: no, I'm afraid I'm an degenerate crayon-eater, and purple is my favourite.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:26 PM on July 10, 2005

As for the parents, maybe they *should* lose their daughter.

As we all know, rasing a person in foster is not tramatic or damaging in any way at all!
posted by delmoi at 11:09 PM on July 10, 2005

...what I experienced -- a kangaroo court consisting of both students and teachers, with insults and abuse heaped without any moderation from the teachers. I later went and found the evidence that vindicated me entirely on my own -- I identified the real culprit, who confessed immediately. No one apologized to me, and the teachers would not even look at me.

Wow, that just sounds so bizzare. It reminds me of the time I beat a public intox ticket. Three cops, in uniform, came to testify against me and after they lost they wouldn't look me in the eye at all. It was bizzare, I mean, we're talking about $100 ticket here, no reason to flip out.
posted by delmoi at 11:17 PM on July 10, 2005

wow

around 9 or 10 I started being accused of making horrible comments, drawing bizarro inappropriate pictures in art, and all kinds of "what is WRONG with this kid" stuff...

thirty years later my mother still won't talk about it.

I DIDN'T DO IT.
or maybe...
I CAN'T REMEMBER DOING IT

it still haunts me. this poor little girl. i hope she finally internalizes that she didn't do it. i never have.
posted by PrincessRue at 6:48 AM on July 11, 2005

As we all know, rasing a person in foster is not tramatic or damaging in any way at all!

That's not in question. The only important thing is whether being raised in foster care will be less traumatizing or damaging than being raised by her birth parents.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:47 AM on July 11, 2005

Probably MSG intolerance...
posted by shockingbluamp at 10:32 AM on July 11, 2005

I had a similar accused of something I didn't do experience as a child in Catholic school. I told my mother, who fortunately believed me. She gave the school hell, but my punishment stood.

I can still remember staying after school, blinking back tears, and thinking of how my mom promised she would take me out for dinner if I could just "get through" the punishment.

I can't imagine going through that kind of bullshit with no one on my side.
posted by Sheppagus at 2:27 PM on July 11, 2005