Cruise right about Psychiatry?

July 15, 2005 6:30 AM

Tom Cruise is a wacky celebrity scientologist. But that doesn't make him wrong. Let's do the math.
posted by ewkpates (54 comments total)

I believe that Cruise calls for the cession of use of all psychosomatic and psychoactive medications and the disestablishment of psychiatry. That is far different from studies that show that exercise benefits some depressant patients or that anti-depressants are possibly less effective than believed.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:38 AM on July 15, 2005

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:39 AM on July 15, 2005

This thread should go well.
posted by OmieWise at 6:47 AM on July 15, 2005

Yes, but did you know that Tom Cruise tried to use Scientology to kill Oprah? The proof:
http://205.138.199.81/videos/0/47132_67278.mov
posted by jmccorm at 6:48 AM on July 15, 2005

Enough Tom Cruise on MetaFilter. Enough Tom Cruise period.
posted by baphomet at 6:49 AM on July 15, 2005

Cruise is the diametric bookend to the belief that everything can/should be treated with drugs. Reality is snug somewhere between.

My suggestion is that Cruise be treated with a heavy bookend to the noggin so that we all can feel better by not hearing about him or his dipshit girlfriend
posted by ElvisJesus at 6:52 AM on July 15, 2005

This post isn't quite flamebait enough. You should have said something condescending about fat people, too.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:54 AM on July 15, 2005

ewkplates, I sense this is a pet topic. There's an interesting response (of sorts) to the Moncrieff Kirsch paper, cited at the bottom of the article which in essence questions the quality of the sorts of trials which Moncrieff/Kirsch have reviewed.

So you want to get everyone to live healthy lives, eat well and exercise? Good luck with that.

Oh and did you just mention Cruise to make everyone pay attention? Oy.
posted by peacay at 6:56 AM on July 15, 2005

ElvisJesus wins. Ewkpates fears xenu.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:57 AM on July 15, 2005

Oh, and Baphomet wins too.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:57 AM on July 15, 2005

Don't be so glib. You're being glib.
posted by davenportmom at 6:58 AM on July 15, 2005

There is no such thing as a chemically imbalanced Tom Cruise.
posted by skarmj at 7:01 AM on July 15, 2005

When I heard that quote, "There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance" all I could think was: Tell that to my friend who painted the walls on his garage with his brains. Tell that to him, and maybe he could hear you between the dozen other voices in his head.
posted by prostyle at 7:02 AM on July 15, 2005

baphomet: Tom Cruise period.

I think I saw some of that going on eBay for under $10 last night..
posted by kcm at 7:03 AM on July 15, 2005

If using drugs to alter behavior is only 8% better than exercise, than why are we doing it? Jane Fonda, to really muddy the waters, never caused any of the suicides, violence, or brain damage that psychiatric medicine has favored us with.

Do No Harm. Ha! We are getting our aff handed to us in a hat - drugs don't cure, drug czars are robbing us blind, and our health care perspective is increasingly warped - chemical band aids aren't what we need, we need lifestyle changes and a society that supports them.

Sooner or later we're going to figure it out. We've been seriously propaganda'd. And, as usual, the fringe figured it out first. How embarrassing. Electroshock anyone? Anyone for a lobotomy? I hear leaches are back in…
posted by ewkpates at 7:04 AM on July 15, 2005

Btw, nice trolling ewk...
posted by prostyle at 7:08 AM on July 15, 2005

The exercise study numbers are 60% in the exercise group cured, 65% of the drug group, and 68% of the group combining of the two. Your saying 8 people in every one hundred should not be cured (according to the maths)?
posted by skarmj at 7:14 AM on July 15, 2005

Lobotomy ... lobotomy
posted by ElvisJesus at 7:16 AM on July 15, 2005

This thread was made meaningless with the first post. Well done Pollomacho.
posted by boymilo at 7:18 AM on July 15, 2005

While death is a tragedy, so is the failure of scientific thinking and it's consequences.

People don't kill themselves because they have a chemical problem in their brains that requires psychiatric pills to make right. "Chemical imbalance" is a term from the psychiatric community, used in marketing propaganda.

People who don't exercise have a chemical imbalance. This is not the kind of imbalance Cruise was talking about. He was talking about the kind of chemical imbalance only a psychiatrist can cure... I mean treat... I mean get paid to use mind numbing substances to obscure.

I think we can help the other 8%... I don't know... help me here... maybe a little cognative therapy with their Jane Fonda? Hello? Mcskarmj? Anyone home?

p.s. I'm not trolling. I'm trying to illuminate the flip side of social delusion (reality) with a little science. Read the book.
posted by ewkpates at 7:20 AM on July 15, 2005

Thanks for sharing your agenda with us, really. This is the place for it. It's clear that you have a thorough understanding of the literature on this subject, not to mention a thorough understanding of the concept of patient autonomy, not to mention a thorough understanding of minding your own goddamn business.
posted by drpynchon at 7:22 AM on July 15, 2005

Did we have to bring Tom Crusie into this? I suggest this book, tho there may be better ones out there, for perspective on prozac.

The book suggests that the early developers of antidepressants viewed them as an embarrassing accident. At the time "melancholia" was considered incredibly rare, but cases of depression shot up starting in the late 50s and early 60s and then again with the advent of prozac in the late 80s and 90s, and have since become "the most common human affliction." It goes on to argue that, unless you have a real chemical imbalance (like prostyle's poor friend, I imagine. very sorry) antidepressants like prozac can create violent depression and the drug companies knew about it in 1988 before the 90s boom.

So, again, this is a viable discussion. No need to invoke Tom Cruise.
posted by es_de_bah at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2005

Tell that to him, and maybe he could hear you between the dozen other voices in his head.

Scientology has revealed the truth to Tom: that those voices in your poor friend's head were the souls of dead aliens, and the proper treatment was for him to pay lots of money to play with a skin galvanometer. It's the Bridge to Total Freedom.
posted by infidelpants at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2005

Dr. Tom Cruise, M.D. (Satirical but makes a good point)

Several people have already pointed out that Cruise is at one extreme of the spectrum, and that a happy medium exists. Scientology proposes to fix your psychiatric problems by running weak electrical fields through parts of your body (the e-meter) in order to detect and eliminate trapped spirits. Drugs are over-prescribed, but Scientology is flat-out quackery. Also, Scientology's therapeutic methods (somewhat reminiscent of the Spanish inquisition) have killed people. Scientology is a dangerous cult that takes people's money (with no actual return on the monumental investment) while harming and killing them. Scientology's celebrity pets are not exposed to the sick shit pulsating at the heart of scientology, or don't care if they know. Either way, I have nothing but contempt for the likes of Tom Cruise. 'nuff said.
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 7:24 AM on July 15, 2005

Come on, ewkpates. You can't claim that chemical imbalance is a total myth and expect everyone to take you seriously. The point of view that our society is overmedicated is totally acceptible, but there is such a thing as chemical imbalance, period. It exists. It happens. It has devastating effects. It's like claiming that it's impossible for heavier-than-air objects to fly. It doesn't matter how loudly you say it or bang the table, that doesn't undo a century of neurological research.
posted by Plutor at 7:28 AM on July 15, 2005

Did you know that if you rearrange the letters in "ewkpates" you can spell "weak pest"?

Oh, and Arnold Schwarzenegger is a better actor than Tom Cruise. There; I said it, and I feel good about it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:28 AM on July 15, 2005

I actually agree that medications are much less efficacious and much less safe than we have been led to believe. I know the literature quite well, as well as the FDA warnings etc, and there is no question that psychotropics should be approached with caution. I also know that the literature shows that psychotherapy, exercise, life changes, etc etc all lead to positive outcomes for people with a range of mental illnesses. There is no convincing evidence for chemical imbalances, even in the most severe cases of mental illness, such as psychosis.

That said, medications do help people feel better. When they help they're great. People should know that they are not the only option, and probably not the best option, but they are an option and people who choose to take them often improve significantly. That improvement can be crucial in creating the motivation and opportunity for the life changes that really lead to lasting change.

The tone of the post, and of several of the comments, is disrespectful about a topic with which people struggle in a very personal and painful way. And I'm not talking about Tom Cruise.
posted by OmieWise at 7:32 AM on July 15, 2005

I'd rather be pumped full of drugs by psychiatrists than believe in Xenu.

Oh wait, there's actually other alternatives that are not so extreme? Wow, who'd have thought?
posted by funambulist at 7:38 AM on July 15, 2005

"Chemical imbalance", as a term of art for mentally malfunctioning people, is a myth. 100% quackery.

There are chemical imbalances, some affect brain function, some of those that affect brain function are caused by other organs in the body... but these imbalances are not effectively treated by psychiatric medication. Nothing is.

The fact that drugs, legal or otherwise, make people feel better is not the point. Anesthesia makes people feel better, but it doesn't remove their gall bladder.

Being mentally healthy isn't about feeling good. It's more complicated than that. Feeling good, occasionally, is a side effect of health. So is feeling sad. We aren't going to help people develop mental health by making them feel good.
posted by ewkpates at 7:40 AM on July 15, 2005

Oh, infidelpants beat me to mentioning the e-meter. Damnit.

ewkpates: You made an FPP asking the exact same question back in December of 2003, just sans Tom Cruise. From reading the comments, people still disagreed with you, but the level of discourse was much more civilized without dragging Cruise and Scientology into it. Mention of those two is just begging for ridicule, so if you really wanted to have a discussion about the over-prescription of drugs...
posted by Derive the Hamiltonian of... at 7:41 AM on July 15, 2005

Plutor writes "there is such a thing as chemical imbalance, period. It exists. It happens. It has devastating effects. It's like claiming that it's impossible for heavier-than-air objects to fly. It doesn't matter how loudly you say it or bang the table, that doesn't undo a century of neurological research."

Plutor-The research on this is equivocal at best. Not only are many many studies mutually contradictory, but we don't really know what we're seeing when we do identify a chemical imbalance. Are we seeing a cause of mental illness, and effect of mental illness, something completely unrelated? The neurology on this suffers from serious problems integrating correlation and causality.

An informative case study for this is the case of Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRIs), the most commonly prescribed anti-depressant. Since these medications seem to have efficacy treating depression, and since they make more serotonin available in the synapses, it was assumed that depression was a problem with low serotonin levels. That's pretty much it, just assumed. But even this model of assumption has broken down since SSRIs pretty much work instantly to elevate serotonin levels, yet their efficacy for treating depression (by both study and case report) takes much longer to be seen. So, what accounts for the gap between raised serotonin levels and raised mood? We don't know, but it does indicate that the simplistic model of You'll notice that in the Zoloft blob commercials the voice-over says "Depression may be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain." An unlikely caveat.
posted by OmieWise at 7:41 AM on July 15, 2005

Oh I know the cause to my depression. It's a bank account imbalance.

And Tom, if you're reading this, you know you could solve that so easily! It's so nice to hear you want to help people, now you need to put your money where your mouth is. $20,000 should be fine for a start. Email me for bank details. Thanks!
posted by funambulist at 7:46 AM on July 15, 2005

While I would never say there are no chemical imbalances (just go on steroids for a while and watch what happents or better yet live with a woman) I do agree with the fact the people are overmedicated.

Clinical Depression is supposed to be depression without a reason for being sad. Most people have reasons and medicating the symptom just allows the underlying problems to fester.
posted by srboisvert at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2005

I don't understand how we got here, funambulist, but you sound like a candidate for happy pills. Plus, they are less complicated and faster than the messy accounting variables and tax questions associated with your plan.

I keep brining this up when 1) More scientists keep doing studies that add to our understanding and 2) Our pop-news culture starts in on it again and 3) I notice the average consumer hasn't learned much in two years. It seems like yesterday.

p.s. I'm Tom Cruise. I looove the internet!
posted by ewkpates at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2005

I do not believe that everyone should be on drugs. I am quite certain, however, that Tom Cruise should be.
posted by justgary at 8:01 AM on July 15, 2005

No wait, I'm actually Tom Cruise and I invented the Internet, you don't know the internet, I do. I've studied it and I've found that there are thousands and thousands of hot chicks naked on there. That's why I made it, so we could all see hot chicks.

Now I'm gonna run around my house hooting like an ape about how much I'm in love with a woman 16 years younger than me and oh so easily brainwashed into the cult Scientology family. And go watch my movies and buy my merchandising so you give me implied permission to be a freak.
posted by fenriq at 8:01 AM on July 15, 2005

Sounds like somebody is off his meds...
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:02 AM on July 15, 2005

out of our medicine, out of our minds, and we want in yours.

let us in. there will be an answer. let us in.
posted by ewkpates at 8:05 AM on July 15, 2005

There are chemical imbalances, some affect brain function, some of those that affect brain function are caused by other organs in the body... but these imbalances are not effectively treated by psychiatric medication. Nothing is.

The fact that drugs, legal or otherwise, make people feel better is not the point. Anesthesia makes people feel better, but it doesn't remove their gall bladder.

Would you go in for gall bladder surgery without anesthesia?
posted by 23skidoo at 8:08 AM on July 15, 2005

ewkpates writes "..these imbalances are not effectively treated by psychiatric medication. Nothing is."

Now you just have to realize how extremist and closed minded that type of thinking appears. It's one thing to advocate a move away from overprescription of medication (and I doubt that there would be a majority in disagreement with that [as a] qualified premise) to a more balanced and healthy lifestyle but another thing altogether to attempt to persuade people that you know more than the sum of the collective wisdom of psychiatric medicine through the ages.

Even setting aside the Cruise hyperbole editorialship, blanket statements of the sort I've just quoted from you are going to have people walk away thinking that you're a fool and an extremist (Cruise perhaps being a notable case in point). Don't you see that?
posted by peacay at 8:08 AM on July 15, 2005

We aren't going to help people develop mental health by making them feel good.

That's right, and that's why mental health workers try an treat the root cause of a mental illness and not just symptoms when they prescribe drugs to correct a chemical imbalance. If they were just making people feel good on the surface then they'd just give them some of the myriad drugs that do that.

If someone has cancer, you try and kill the cancer, right? You don't just give pain pills. When someone has a problem in their brain, such as, say an over active hypothalamus, then you try and get them back down to normal. Sometime exercise helps, sometimes vitamins, sometimes talking about things helps people and sometimes giving them a drug that reduces overactive hormone production or stimulates under productive glands helps. Are we overprescribing these drugs? Yes, probably. Is it dangerous when someone is misdiagnosed? Certainly. Should we get rid of these drugs all together? Fuck no.

How many people who were not prescribed drugs for a chemical imbalance have killed themselves and/or others?

On preview:

out of our medicine, out of our minds, and we want in yours.

let us in. there will be an answer. let us in.

Wow. Maybe we need to prescribe these drugs more often?
posted by Pollomacho at 8:09 AM on July 15, 2005

Ah! M. skidoo, you raise an excellent question! I would NOT consider gall bladder surgery w/o anesthesia. I thank you for raising this question.

I should also make it clear that I wouldn't accept anesthesia IN PLACE OF gall bladder surgery either.

I am willing to yield ground to a certain degree, given the resources currently available in the mental health sector:

There are few practical alternatives to the very limited use of psychiatric medications AS A PREREQUISITE TO TREATMENT for a set of patients who would otherwise require high maintenance 24 hour care, if not 24 hour care and medication, in order to begin treatment.
posted by ewkpates at 8:16 AM on July 15, 2005

Looks like ewkpates needs to get his own blog.
posted by Eekacat at 8:17 AM on July 15, 2005

If using drugs to alter behavior is only 8% better than exercise, than why are we doing it? Jane Fonda, to really muddy the waters, never caused any of the suicides, violence, or brain damage that psychiatric medicine has favored us with.

I see, so you belive having more seritonin in the brain can cause suicide and whatnot, but having less cannot?

Why not market your selective seritonin reuptake enhancer and become a billionare. I'm sure it'll stop suicdes, that.
posted by delmoi at 8:20 AM on July 15, 2005

while I agree that meds alone isn't the answer, I do believe they are part of the solution. when you are really depressed (as I have been), you are not going to exercise, eat well, etc. So saying to do those things instead of taking meds is really dumb.

you need therapy to do deal with why you're depressed and you need the meds to help you get to a stable mindview.

and for some people the depression doesn't go away even after dealing with the problem. or the problem isn't fixable.

so what then? yes, ideally eating well, exercising, etc. would do the trick, but it isn't always as easy as that. and to say otherwise, I think, is ignorant and offensive to those of us who feel they really do need it.

on preview: I did not need 24 hour care but I still needed meds. I still think you are being overly conservative in your views.
posted by evening at 8:20 AM on July 15, 2005

ewk, you have some valid points but it's not as black and white as you seem to think.

If you are worried about being poisoned then you are going to have to stop eating, drinking and breathing. No matter how healthy your lifestyle you are still You'll have to move yourself into a big oxygen tent and stay there.

we live in one big polluted global village and there's nowhere to run.

Drugs rarely cure on their own. Drug czars do rob us blind, drug dealers moreso ;-) Our healthcare perspective is warped imo also. we do need lifestyle changes, big time.

BUT....

Mental illness is very real and drugs can and do help. Eating well and a healthy lifestyle has been found to help ward off cancer - are you saying those who get cancer who have led a healthy life should just die cause the drugs are bad? Fuck it, chemo is bad for you - who cares if it may save your life.

Regardless of whether it's physical or mental, if the patient is given an informed choice as to the up/downsides to their medication then we should treat them with whatever we can.
posted by twistedonion at 8:21 AM on July 15, 2005

ewkpates, you can't post with an agenda around here unless you're y2karl. godspeed!
posted by angry modem at 8:21 AM on July 15, 2005

you are still You'll

should be "you are still pumping yourself full of toxins. You'll"
posted by twistedonion at 8:24 AM on July 15, 2005

Hear, Hear, Pollomacho.
My girlfriend was first admitted to a mental institution in 5th grade. She was not just sad. She was hearing voices.
And today, through therapy assisted by drug therapy, she is possibly the most mentally healthy person I've ever met.
The point is thus- if you have mental problems, it may be extremely difficult to solve them through therapy alone, just as it would be extremely difficult to remove your own appendix without any anesthesic. The process is so hard that, oftentimes, one just shuts down instead of going through with it.
Zoloft, et al, certainly don't remove the heart of the problem. However, they give you the distance from your own problems and difficulties that can allow you to work through them.
Should these drugs be accompanied by actual therapy? I think so. Maybe you could do a FPP on that. This was just sad.

On Preview- what everyone else is saying.
posted by 235w103 at 8:25 AM on July 15, 2005

The extremity of a position is not the measure of it's validity and truth values: Please remember that science has often suggested positions that shocked us and offended us. People from monkeys? Still getting some mileage.

Perhaps the solution is to invite people to practice greater mental discipline. When shocked or offended - think extra carefully.
posted by ewkpates at 8:27 AM on July 15, 2005

the internet smells good. it looks pretty. i love the internet. i do.
posted by glenwood at 8:27 AM on July 15, 2005

There are few practical alternatives to the very limited use of psychiatric medications AS A PREREQUISITE TO TREATMENT for a set of patients who would otherwise require high maintenance 24 hour care, if not 24 hour care and medication, in order to begin treatment.

As a chemical restraint then rather than a therapeutic?

I have GERD, that's acid reflux in layman's talk. My stomach produces too much acid and this also causes gas to be produced, this gas forces a leakage of acid around the closure at the top of my stomach and the overabundant acid burns the base of my esophagus. If I go on without something to stop the acid, the acid scars will turn into cancer and I will die. Further, acid burned me all the way up to my sinus cavities, where I've had severe allergies and polyps on my throat and larynx.

I could take a pain killer, that would make my heartburn better. I could take an antacid every time I feel a burn. I could take a drug that causes the acid producing glands in my stomach to chill out and thereby let my esophagus heal even when I'm not having heartburn. I choose C and it is the first thing that has worked for me in my whole life. Doctors have told me that after examinations, I am showing real signs of improvement and more than that, I feel better.

Sometimes people's glands don't function correctly. Sometimes its something really obvious like a corrosive acid in their stomach or too much testosterone making a woman grow a mustache. Sometimes its hidden like an under active adrenal gland causing a whole body issue. Sometimes the chemicals that your brain uses to send messages are off. Maybe this makes you sad when chemicals that make you happy don't get through. Sometimes it makes you manic when too much gets through. The key is to find out if this is true and balance it out, just like in the obvious case of my stomach. I would like to not have cancer, just like some patients would prefer not to unontrollably ram their head through a plate glass window.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:33 AM on July 15, 2005

I will not be drawn into this discussion.
posted by grateful at 8:33 AM on July 15, 2005

Hmm. I forgot to take my Celexa this morning. Thanks for the reminder.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:37 AM on July 15, 2005