Shitty Tippers Beware!
July 25, 2005 12:25 PM Subscribe
The Shitty Tipper Database. Ever undertip, for whatever reason? Did you use a credit card? You could be famous! Or infamous. (via)
Where's the complementary "Shitty Shitty Waiter Database"? I have been known to leave no tip whatsoever for service which does't meet even the very most basic of expectations. I've had food returned cold, twice, to me, that was supposed to be served hot. Am I a shitty tipper because I didn't tip at all in this case? If so, I'm proud of it.
Tipping for poor service is just stupid. Don't do it. If you do, you are part of the problem.
posted by wakko at 12:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Tipping for poor service is just stupid. Don't do it. If you do, you are part of the problem.
posted by wakko at 12:35 PM on July 25, 2005
^I co-sign wakko's statement..
Tip is a bonus for service done well.. Sometimes the service RUINS a good night.. after reading some of them, I feel they don't deserve a tip at all!.. and my Dad's a waiter, so I'm not just hating on waiters, I try to tip as best as I can.
posted by pez_LPhiE at 12:37 PM on July 25, 2005
Tip is a bonus for service done well.. Sometimes the service RUINS a good night.. after reading some of them, I feel they don't deserve a tip at all!.. and my Dad's a waiter, so I'm not just hating on waiters, I try to tip as best as I can.
posted by pez_LPhiE at 12:37 PM on July 25, 2005
I also do tip very well for outstanding service, and roughly 20% for most other types.
posted by wakko at 12:40 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by wakko at 12:40 PM on July 25, 2005
I also wonder if what they are doing is legal, from a privacy standpoint. Being the stinky person I am, I wrote VISA to see what they think.
posted by frykitty at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by frykitty at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2005
A shitty tip is anything under 17%? WTF? A 15% tip is standard and is being pretty damned generous in alot of cases.
I've had horrible service before and, instead of stiffing my waitstaff. I left them a small tip and a note explaining why they got such a crappy tip. And when the service is exceptional, I will tip well and I'll also let their manager know what an excellent job they did.
It bothers me that every service profession now has no problem sticking their hand out for a tip even if they've literally done nothing but ring up your purchases.
And the apology link button is funny. They want bad tippers to find their site and then write them an apology? Man, these waiters must make enough money to keep them stoned all the time because they are smoking something funky.
posted by fenriq at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2005
I've had horrible service before and, instead of stiffing my waitstaff. I left them a small tip and a note explaining why they got such a crappy tip. And when the service is exceptional, I will tip well and I'll also let their manager know what an excellent job they did.
It bothers me that every service profession now has no problem sticking their hand out for a tip even if they've literally done nothing but ring up your purchases.
And the apology link button is funny. They want bad tippers to find their site and then write them an apology? Man, these waiters must make enough money to keep them stoned all the time because they are smoking something funky.
posted by fenriq at 12:43 PM on July 25, 2005
It's an interesting idea, but I don't understand who can use this "tool". As if any wait staff could memorize the names of all shitty tippers in their locality. As a customer, knowing that this database is online won't stop me from leaving low tips for cruddy service, not that I frequently leave low tips. It's funny I guess, but I don't understand the point.
posted by chowder at 12:45 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by chowder at 12:45 PM on July 25, 2005
a shitty tip is, by my definition, any gratuity under 17% for service which one's peers would judge as adequate or better (eg. orders are correct, on time, special requests are honored, etc.)
WTF?
posted by smackfu at 12:45 PM on July 25, 2005
WTF?
posted by smackfu at 12:45 PM on July 25, 2005
MR. PINK: I don't tip because society says I gotta. I tip when somebody deserves a tip. When somebody really puts forth an effort, they deserve a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, that shit's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doin' their job.
MR. BLUE: Our girl was nice.
MR. PINK: Our girl was okay. She didn't do anything special.
MR. BLUE: What's special, take ya in the back and suck your dick?
NICE GUY EDDIE: I'd go over twelve percent for that.
posted by jonmc at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2005
MR. BLUE: Our girl was nice.
MR. PINK: Our girl was okay. She didn't do anything special.
MR. BLUE: What's special, take ya in the back and suck your dick?
NICE GUY EDDIE: I'd go over twelve percent for that.
posted by jonmc at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2005
Also, what's to stop people with a beef from just smearing anyone they don't like? Doesn't seem like there is any oversight to the posts.
posted by fenriq at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by fenriq at 12:46 PM on July 25, 2005
Scene: Three couples in Finger Lakes area restaurant. Menu says "parties of six or more will have service charge of 18% applied." I go to the bathroom, and through the paper thin walls I hear "I'll bet that my party of six don't leave me a tip." WTF? Did the manager keep her 18%? Was I not supposed to read the fine print? What a fucked up system we have going.
BTW, what is Southside Jonny's 55% tip doing on this site?
posted by fixedgear at 12:47 PM on July 25, 2005
BTW, what is Southside Jonny's 55% tip doing on this site?
posted by fixedgear at 12:47 PM on July 25, 2005
It looks like a lot of these are just minor-celebrity name dropping...
posted by mr_roboto at 12:51 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by mr_roboto at 12:51 PM on July 25, 2005
I think some of our contestants might be a little unclear on the concept: This waitron had Ed Norton and (be still my beating heart) Salma Hayek; he tipped 19%. "I would definitely serve them again," notes the poster. As the site admin notes: "What part of shitty tipper don't you get?"
posted by docgonzo at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by docgonzo at 12:54 PM on July 25, 2005
Lord save us from yet another MeFi thread about tipping...
posted by Stonewall Jackson at 12:55 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Stonewall Jackson at 12:55 PM on July 25, 2005
Thank God we didn't elect that asshole John Edwards, ey?
posted by hackly_fracture at 12:58 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by hackly_fracture at 12:58 PM on July 25, 2005
Along with some major name dropping....
Or a vast right-wing waiters conspiracy?
I'm actually quite relieved to see my (completely unfamous) parents didn't make that list. They so deserve to.
posted by Sully6 at 12:58 PM on July 25, 2005
Or a vast right-wing waiters conspiracy?
I'm actually quite relieved to see my (completely unfamous) parents didn't make that list. They so deserve to.
posted by Sully6 at 12:58 PM on July 25, 2005
My understanding is that the 17% is what the IRS assumes they get, and charges them tax on, whether they get it or not. So I can understand their resentment over getting less.
I think the site is terribly obnoxious, but I also think a lot of restaurant patrons are terribly stingy, too. I used to be really stingy about tips, but at some point I started feeling more generous about the whole thing. I dunno what made me change. I still will give a near-zero tip if the service was unconscionably bad, which is thankfully rare, although I have friends who believe that one should never tip less than 15% in any circumstance.
In any case, I think taking people's names from their credit cards goes way beyond acceptable retribution.
posted by daveadams at 12:59 PM on July 25, 2005
I think the site is terribly obnoxious, but I also think a lot of restaurant patrons are terribly stingy, too. I used to be really stingy about tips, but at some point I started feeling more generous about the whole thing. I dunno what made me change. I still will give a near-zero tip if the service was unconscionably bad, which is thankfully rare, although I have friends who believe that one should never tip less than 15% in any circumstance.
In any case, I think taking people's names from their credit cards goes way beyond acceptable retribution.
posted by daveadams at 12:59 PM on July 25, 2005
"Excuse me, sir, but before I tell you about our specials today, I'll need your full name so I can run it through our database to see if you qualify for our special "Saliva Club" program. What do you mean, no? Careful or you'll go on the list! Wait! Come back! I only make 2 cents an hour! My children need wine!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:59 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:59 PM on July 25, 2005
I agree, where's the "Shitty Waiter Database"? I usually tip the minimum for good service and 20% for really good service, but if you're a bad server you won't get a dime out of me. Case in point: at a recent visit to a crappy, trendy mid-town NYC bar, the bartender pretty much ignored me. Adding insult to injury, the already outrageous price of beer was incrementally raised as the night dragged on. Whether or not this was her doing or the establishment's policy, I didn't leave one red cent extra.
posted by tomorama at 1:00 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by tomorama at 1:00 PM on July 25, 2005
chowder, maybe it's an attempt to shame the lousy tippers into tipping in the future.
posted by wsg at 1:00 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by wsg at 1:00 PM on July 25, 2005
My understanding is that the 17% is what the IRS assumes they get, and charges them tax on, whether they get it or not.
According to this discussion, it's 15%. The IRS does not "charge you tax" on what they think you owe in the U.S. You report how much you earned. Now if they think you earned something different, then you're going to have lots of legal crap to deal with.
posted by grouse at 1:07 PM on July 25, 2005
According to this discussion, it's 15%. The IRS does not "charge you tax" on what they think you owe in the U.S. You report how much you earned. Now if they think you earned something different, then you're going to have lots of legal crap to deal with.
posted by grouse at 1:07 PM on July 25, 2005
Wow, what a bunch of wenches. I'm sorry you weren't talented enough to make in art school, but I'm not paying 17% to support your import cigarettes habit.
Why should waiters and waitresses, out of the underpaid legions of the service industry, bring home near corporate incomes when their cleaning-person counterparts are scraping by on minimum wage?
If service is good, I'll round up 15% to the nearest dollar. If I had to order at the counter, I'll leave 10%. If I suspect you to be a tip nazi who designs websites to house your petty complaints, I'll just go somewhere else altogether.
posted by ori at 1:07 PM on July 25, 2005
Why should waiters and waitresses, out of the underpaid legions of the service industry, bring home near corporate incomes when their cleaning-person counterparts are scraping by on minimum wage?
If service is good, I'll round up 15% to the nearest dollar. If I had to order at the counter, I'll leave 10%. If I suspect you to be a tip nazi who designs websites to house your petty complaints, I'll just go somewhere else altogether.
posted by ori at 1:07 PM on July 25, 2005
"Eat your steak at home you miserable, old, cheap, arrogant, hole of an ass." Comedy gold.
posted by OmieWise at 1:09 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by OmieWise at 1:09 PM on July 25, 2005
Think that's bad fixedgear
Just last night I was at this mediocre place in NYC, there were 4 of us at the table… Upon looking at the bill we realized that on our $115 bill there was listed with our mains a 25$ service charge (that’s almost 22%), and then that was added into the subtotal and tax was placed on top of that. Upon asking the owner “WFT?”, he informed me that the computer automatically charged that when the bill was over $100, but that we didn’t have to pay it if we didn’t want to. I’m quite sure that the hope is that people don’t notice and tip on that. I’m pretty sure this is illegal. Sadly, my table mates still wanted to tip (15%)… I’m still livid.
posted by Phantast at 1:11 PM on July 25, 2005
Just last night I was at this mediocre place in NYC, there were 4 of us at the table… Upon looking at the bill we realized that on our $115 bill there was listed with our mains a 25$ service charge (that’s almost 22%), and then that was added into the subtotal and tax was placed on top of that. Upon asking the owner “WFT?”, he informed me that the computer automatically charged that when the bill was over $100, but that we didn’t have to pay it if we didn’t want to. I’m quite sure that the hope is that people don’t notice and tip on that. I’m pretty sure this is illegal. Sadly, my table mates still wanted to tip (15%)… I’m still livid.
posted by Phantast at 1:11 PM on July 25, 2005
I'll tip 25-30% if I think the place is cool, food/drink good, and the serving staff are nice. (i.e. If I think I'm going to be a regular to a restaurant or pub.) After 2 or 3 visits with a 30% tip, regular staff WILL notice you and give you preferential treatment. You'll get your food first, your drinks refreshed quicker, and they will make sure everything is done picture perfect. A tip is a "payment" for their service, and most staff will be nicer, work harder, if they know that they're going to be compensated for whatever extra effort they do for you. However, If I'm at some touristy place or somewhere I don't plan to frequent again in the near future, for adequate service I'll tip about 16%.
Now... for shitty service I tip 0 %, and I will usually walk out with the silverware or salt and pepper shakers. I've been out with people who are tippers no matter what, and it pisses me off. I have gone back into the restaurant (with an excuse that I suddenly have to go to the bathroom or something) and I will swipe that damn tip off the table and pocket it, rather than "reward" someone for shitty service. I understand that people can have bad days. My waiter/tress that evening could be having personal problems, work-related issues, stress, or any myriad of situations which under those circumstances, every one of us can say would allow our work to suffer. But... you gotta internalize that shit for your shift if you want to get paid. I'm not expecting Suzie McCheerful, but just do your damn job, and you'll get your 16%, or else, you get diddly squat.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:14 PM on July 25, 2005
Now... for shitty service I tip 0 %, and I will usually walk out with the silverware or salt and pepper shakers. I've been out with people who are tippers no matter what, and it pisses me off. I have gone back into the restaurant (with an excuse that I suddenly have to go to the bathroom or something) and I will swipe that damn tip off the table and pocket it, rather than "reward" someone for shitty service. I understand that people can have bad days. My waiter/tress that evening could be having personal problems, work-related issues, stress, or any myriad of situations which under those circumstances, every one of us can say would allow our work to suffer. But... you gotta internalize that shit for your shift if you want to get paid. I'm not expecting Suzie McCheerful, but just do your damn job, and you'll get your 16%, or else, you get diddly squat.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:14 PM on July 25, 2005
http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/index.html?detail=1&id=872:
What happened:
Looked like a monkey. Acted like a monkey. Threw his feces at other patrons.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:18 PM on July 25, 2005
What happened:
Looked like a monkey. Acted like a monkey. Threw his feces at other patrons.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:18 PM on July 25, 2005
I am one poor SOB at the moment, but I had 25 years of traveling the US of A, Canada, and Europe, so I'll still tip 20% for really good service (and I'm pretty easy) and 15% for adequate service. Shitty service? Shitty tip! IRCGAF if my name winds up on their list--I can guarantee that if I make it there, I got lame service. In Europe, I'll follow the local custom. My two least favorite words are "service compris"--if I recall my French, it means "your entree will be cold and I don't care."
Worst city in the US for good service, imo? South Beach (see French).
Oh, and heads up folks--are you paying gratuity on the bill total or on the subtotal? Why tF are you paying a tip on sales tax?
posted by beelzbubba at 1:19 PM on July 25, 2005
Worst city in the US for good service, imo? South Beach (see French).
Oh, and heads up folks--are you paying gratuity on the bill total or on the subtotal? Why tF are you paying a tip on sales tax?
posted by beelzbubba at 1:19 PM on July 25, 2005
Even as a former waitress I find this site ridiculous and petty.
If I get really bad service at a restuarant, not only will I leave a small tip, I will make sure the waitress and management know why I left only 1 or 2 percent.
That said, people need to differentiate between a problem with the wait person and a problem with kitchen. Don't leave the waiter a shitty tip if it's nothing they had control over. Take your complaints to the manager.
posted by grey_flap at 1:20 PM on July 25, 2005
If I get really bad service at a restuarant, not only will I leave a small tip, I will make sure the waitress and management know why I left only 1 or 2 percent.
That said, people need to differentiate between a problem with the wait person and a problem with kitchen. Don't leave the waiter a shitty tip if it's nothing they had control over. Take your complaints to the manager.
posted by grey_flap at 1:20 PM on July 25, 2005
I’m pretty sure this is illegal
Phantast.... it isn't illegal, and sometimes even law enforcement gets it twisted. I read an article a while back about a guy who refused to pay the automatically added gratuity charge on his bill, because the service had been crappy. The manager of the place called the police and he was arrested. It was eventually determined that he did not actually commit a crime, as he did pay for the meal... but the cop misunderstood the law in this instance. It's not illegal for them to add it, as long as it is in fine print, but it's also not illegal if you don't wish to pay it.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:21 PM on July 25, 2005
Phantast.... it isn't illegal, and sometimes even law enforcement gets it twisted. I read an article a while back about a guy who refused to pay the automatically added gratuity charge on his bill, because the service had been crappy. The manager of the place called the police and he was arrested. It was eventually determined that he did not actually commit a crime, as he did pay for the meal... but the cop misunderstood the law in this instance. It's not illegal for them to add it, as long as it is in fine print, but it's also not illegal if you don't wish to pay it.
posted by Debaser626 at 1:21 PM on July 25, 2005
Ugh, tipping customs is another US export that's infected us here in the North - waitpersons here get at least minimum wage from their employer (and depending on the restaurant, potentially considerably more) and they still expect minimum 15-20% tips...
As one of my friends commented (the majority of my other friends gratuitously overtip), "Whoah there, you do know that they make more money than you do, don't you?"
posted by PurplePorpoise at 1:24 PM on July 25, 2005
As one of my friends commented (the majority of my other friends gratuitously overtip), "Whoah there, you do know that they make more money than you do, don't you?"
posted by PurplePorpoise at 1:24 PM on July 25, 2005
on preview--I did not direct this "tip on tax" comment to you phantasm, I think many people are unaware that they are unintentionally increasing their tip b/c of sales tax.
posted by beelzbubba at 1:24 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by beelzbubba at 1:24 PM on July 25, 2005
The whole premise of the database is flawed, since it doesn't account for poor service which warranted a low or nonexistant tip. If people reliably tipped according to the level of service they received, the database would be more useful in shaming the restaurant, and not the tippers. As is, the database is unconvincing in its attempt to shame the tippers.
I have a hard time feeling very bad for service industry employees when they don't always get good tips. Most bartenders, waiters/waitresses and strippers make far more than I do, and unless the service is top-notch I fail to see how their high wages are really warranted.
That being said, I do live in Oregon where everyone gets minimum wage, tips or not. I understand not every state is as labor-friendly.
posted by mullingitover at 1:25 PM on July 25, 2005
I have a hard time feeling very bad for service industry employees when they don't always get good tips. Most bartenders, waiters/waitresses and strippers make far more than I do, and unless the service is top-notch I fail to see how their high wages are really warranted.
That being said, I do live in Oregon where everyone gets minimum wage, tips or not. I understand not every state is as labor-friendly.
posted by mullingitover at 1:25 PM on July 25, 2005
I didn't realize some that in some states waiters/waitresses make less than minimum as base salary, but here in Vancouver, BC they definitely do, and as a rule they make much more than me or most of my student-job friends.
posted by ori at 1:28 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by ori at 1:28 PM on July 25, 2005
I should point out that the part I think is illegal (certainly NOT an arestable offense) is charging tax on the automatically added tip. (Also, there was no fine print and adding $25 after that bill hit $100 seems F'ed if not illegal)
posted by Phantast at 1:30 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Phantast at 1:30 PM on July 25, 2005
My two tipping pet peeves are inflation applied to tipping percentage, and the idea that the percentage should be higher at better restaurants. They belie a fundamental misunderstanding of the "percentage" concept.
posted by smackfu at 1:30 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by smackfu at 1:30 PM on July 25, 2005
The only number I could find quickly: in 44/50 states, waitstaff make less than minimum wage.
(I can't find anything official looking).
As far as the United States was concerned, I didn't know there *were* any places that required waitstaff to be paid minimum wage...cheers to Oregon, I guess...
posted by hototogisu at 1:36 PM on July 25, 2005
(I can't find anything official looking).
As far as the United States was concerned, I didn't know there *were* any places that required waitstaff to be paid minimum wage...cheers to Oregon, I guess...
posted by hototogisu at 1:36 PM on July 25, 2005
I don't mind tipping for good service but the sense of "Tip Entitlement" has gotten out of hand. I see many places have tip jars out for carryouts (nope, not gonna do it) and a while back I went to a local Arby's (76th & Good Hope for those of you in MKE) and there was a tip jar and a "We Accept Tips" sign on the counter. At fuckin' Arby's! Waitstaff at a sitdown place or even a barista but not fucking fast food.
posted by MikeMc at 1:36 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by MikeMc at 1:36 PM on July 25, 2005
Yeah, just so we're clear here: minimum wage for waiters is much lower than for other professions (last I checked it was something like $2.15 per hour). Your tips are their wages, not extra pocket money. I don't know of any other profession where the people providing the service can't predict their take-home pay and rely on their customer's goodwill to pay their rent. This applies only to table service, deli counter workers (for example) are subject to ordinary minimum wage laws.
Also, those of you indignant over privacy concerns might want to avoid using opentable.com. Not only do they save basic, relevant info about your visit (whether you showed, if it was on time, size of party, form of payment) but there's all kinds of optional info a restaurant can add, like size of bill, tip, food preferences, etc.
posted by cali at 1:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Also, those of you indignant over privacy concerns might want to avoid using opentable.com. Not only do they save basic, relevant info about your visit (whether you showed, if it was on time, size of party, form of payment) but there's all kinds of optional info a restaurant can add, like size of bill, tip, food preferences, etc.
posted by cali at 1:49 PM on July 25, 2005
15% tipping is stupid. If I eat somewhere and I spend $100.00 on my food I am supposed to leave fifteen bucks but if I go to a cafe and spend ten I only leave $1.50, despite that the cafe waitperson worked just as hard if not harder? Fuck that. I do not do percentages.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 1:52 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 1:52 PM on July 25, 2005
Well, I've been to Hong Kong and China. If you tip them, they'd chase after you and tell you that you left your $$ behind... One time this older Chinese man stubbornly refused my tip, and these people are very poor.
I think one should tip according to manner and service.
posted by mrhappysad at 1:54 PM on July 25, 2005
I think one should tip according to manner and service.
posted by mrhappysad at 1:54 PM on July 25, 2005
Oright, I was a busboy once... Each busboy lookout for one waitier or two, and we only got like a few percentages of what the waiters were getting...
posted by mrhappysad at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by mrhappysad at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
I think it just might be illegal.
If I was named in the database and my reputation was damaged because of it, it would be slander unless the person writing the review could prove that I was a shitty tipper.
What, did he save a copy of the credit card receipt? That's either illegal or against the terms of the credit card company.
So how's he going to prove that I'm a shitty tipper? He can't just say it and stand back and say "prove you're not". A slander defense doesn't work that way.
posted by RalphSlate at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
If I was named in the database and my reputation was damaged because of it, it would be slander unless the person writing the review could prove that I was a shitty tipper.
What, did he save a copy of the credit card receipt? That's either illegal or against the terms of the credit card company.
So how's he going to prove that I'm a shitty tipper? He can't just say it and stand back and say "prove you're not". A slander defense doesn't work that way.
posted by RalphSlate at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
I am often accused of miserliness (is that a word?) because I REFUSE to tip on the total taxed amount. My friends think I'm a cheapass for tiipping on the subtotal, but come ON! Why should I pay more in a tip because I happen to live in a high-tax city?
Encourage people to stop tipping on the taxed total, folks, or I'll continue to look cheap.
posted by tristeza at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
Encourage people to stop tipping on the taxed total, folks, or I'll continue to look cheap.
posted by tristeza at 1:58 PM on July 25, 2005
wait, since when has less then 17% been the shitty tip divider? I was under the impression that 15% is adequate, 20% is good.
posted by chibikeandy at 2:03 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by chibikeandy at 2:03 PM on July 25, 2005
Yeah, just so we're clear here: minimum wage for waiters is much lower than for other professions (last I checked it was something like $2.15 per hour). Your tips are their wages, not extra pocket money. I don't know of any other profession where the people providing the service can't predict their take-home pay and rely on their customer's goodwill to pay their rent.
This is not the case everywhere. In San Francisco, where I live, waiters and other tipped personnel (bartenders, etc.) are now (as of February 2003) guaranteed the City's minimum wage of $8.50 (I think it's a little higher now, as it gets adjusted for cost of living increases) exclusive of tips.
(Note that I am an advocate of tipping, and tipping well (for good service). It cannot be easy to live in this town on $8.50/hour. Also, as someone who tended bar for years, I believe in tipping. For adequate service, I tip 20%, and adjust upward for spectacular service.)
posted by trip and a half at 2:07 PM on July 25, 2005
This is not the case everywhere. In San Francisco, where I live, waiters and other tipped personnel (bartenders, etc.) are now (as of February 2003) guaranteed the City's minimum wage of $8.50 (I think it's a little higher now, as it gets adjusted for cost of living increases) exclusive of tips.
(Note that I am an advocate of tipping, and tipping well (for good service). It cannot be easy to live in this town on $8.50/hour. Also, as someone who tended bar for years, I believe in tipping. For adequate service, I tip 20%, and adjust upward for spectacular service.)
posted by trip and a half at 2:07 PM on July 25, 2005
Johnmc: I don't tip because society says I gotta. I tip when somebody deserves a tip. When somebody really puts forth an effort, they deserve a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, that shit's for the birds.
If the service is adequate, a 15% tip should be automatic. Because waitstaff recieves tips, minimum wage laws do not apply to restaurants. In Mass, servers recieve $2.65 an hour. In New York, it's $3.65. Usually that's just enough to cover the taxes for their tips. For those who say that adequate service is "just doing their jobs," they're right, but it's the patron's job to pay the waitstaff because the resataurants don't. When customers leave no tip on a bill they have essentailly taken free labor from the server, which last I checked was called slavery.
Most states have laws that allow an 18% gratuity on parties of six or more simply because large tables take up so much of the waiter's time. If they are stiffed on a large check, half their wages for the evening are gone.
And yes, I am and have been a waiter and bartender for about 3 years now. I started in college, and have continued since because 1. it can be difficult to break into a career immediately. 2. the entry-level job I did have (as a reporter) required longer hours and less money than most wait jobs I've had. I have friends that work as waiters for a career, and many had credentials as teachers. The reason they wait? In many states teacher salaries are so low, it makes more sense to enter the service industry.
The kind of dehumanizing attitude that we recieve is frankly, abhorrent, and yes, has made many waiters very, very angry. Many people seem to lack the social skills necessary to interact with a restaurant employee, and I wish these people would not eat out.
On preview: thank you hototogisu and cali. For the states I listed my numbers are accurate as of about a year ago when I last worked there. I hear that it's going up in New York, but will still be less than $5.
posted by ScottMorris at 2:09 PM on July 25, 2005
If the service is adequate, a 15% tip should be automatic. Because waitstaff recieves tips, minimum wage laws do not apply to restaurants. In Mass, servers recieve $2.65 an hour. In New York, it's $3.65. Usually that's just enough to cover the taxes for their tips. For those who say that adequate service is "just doing their jobs," they're right, but it's the patron's job to pay the waitstaff because the resataurants don't. When customers leave no tip on a bill they have essentailly taken free labor from the server, which last I checked was called slavery.
Most states have laws that allow an 18% gratuity on parties of six or more simply because large tables take up so much of the waiter's time. If they are stiffed on a large check, half their wages for the evening are gone.
And yes, I am and have been a waiter and bartender for about 3 years now. I started in college, and have continued since because 1. it can be difficult to break into a career immediately. 2. the entry-level job I did have (as a reporter) required longer hours and less money than most wait jobs I've had. I have friends that work as waiters for a career, and many had credentials as teachers. The reason they wait? In many states teacher salaries are so low, it makes more sense to enter the service industry.
The kind of dehumanizing attitude that we recieve is frankly, abhorrent, and yes, has made many waiters very, very angry. Many people seem to lack the social skills necessary to interact with a restaurant employee, and I wish these people would not eat out.
On preview: thank you hototogisu and cali. For the states I listed my numbers are accurate as of about a year ago when I last worked there. I hear that it's going up in New York, but will still be less than $5.
posted by ScottMorris at 2:09 PM on July 25, 2005
One more thing. As far as overpayed waitstaff is concerned, I work 35-40 hours a week both waiting and bartending but still fall well below the poverty line. Tips are not making us rich.
posted by ScottMorris at 2:16 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by ScottMorris at 2:16 PM on July 25, 2005
If this devolves more into the "Why tip?" realm, I invite you to check out this former Mefi thread, where we beat this dead horse quite sufficiently, with civil discourse between tippers and tippeeeeees.
Aside: Guy rushes into a bar, slams his fist on the bar, and yells "I'm a TeePee! I'm a wigam! I'm a TeePee! I'm a WigWam!" the Bartender stoically nods and replies "Buddy, relax, you're just two tents."
posted by cavalier at 2:17 PM on July 25, 2005
Aside: Guy rushes into a bar, slams his fist on the bar, and yells "I'm a TeePee! I'm a wigam! I'm a TeePee! I'm a WigWam!" the Bartender stoically nods and replies "Buddy, relax, you're just two tents."
posted by cavalier at 2:17 PM on July 25, 2005
Wow, sounds like Justin Timberlake shows his appreciation for great service in a very personalized way.
posted by ktoad at 2:17 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by ktoad at 2:17 PM on July 25, 2005
tristeza: I don't think any of the servers I ever bussed tables for cared about pre/post-tax tipping, but then again, they were crazy middle aged people swearing at each other in Cantonese, so maybe I don't have the best of perspectives.
What are the local waitrons' opinions on this?
posted by hototogisu at 2:19 PM on July 25, 2005
What are the local waitrons' opinions on this?
posted by hototogisu at 2:19 PM on July 25, 2005
Cali nailed it. If you don't want to tip, then stay home. And if you want to tip like a tightass, then don't be shocked to see your name in the database.
posted by 27 at 2:25 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by 27 at 2:25 PM on July 25, 2005
Why do people eat in places with poor service? I've never understood the "I'm trying to teach you a lesson" excuse for a bad tip. If the service is bad, tip at least 10%+, then complain to the manager and then don't go back. I eat out quite a bit, in fact I'm in "the industry" myself, and I've rarely had service so bad that I felt a compulsion to leave anything less then 20%. I'm not sure what kind of restaurants the above posters are frequenting, but nice, often family owned, restaurants generally pay a lot of attention to service. The rare times that I recieved poor service I'd been eating at some corporate restaurant with a name like "Macaroni Grill" (Who grills macaroni?) I tipped, but I didn't return.
I don't understand the "they make more money than me so I leave shitty tips" excuse either. I assume Tim Burton makes more money than you but you still go to his movies.
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:26 PM on July 25, 2005
I don't understand the "they make more money than me so I leave shitty tips" excuse either. I assume Tim Burton makes more money than you but you still go to his movies.
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:26 PM on July 25, 2005
IANAL, but to nitpick: If it's written, it's libel not slander. Slander is spoken. Neither is "illegal." Either can give you a valid cause of action to sue someone for damages.
"RalphSlate is a shitty tipper" is an opinion and not legally defamation. "RalphSlate only tipped 1%" is a statement of fact. If it were untrue, you could sue to recover whatever damages you suffered because of their lie, plus costs, less whatever damages you could have mitigated. If Ralphslate is a public figure you'll also have to show that was more than a simple mistake.
posted by tyllwin at 2:30 PM on July 25, 2005
"RalphSlate is a shitty tipper" is an opinion and not legally defamation. "RalphSlate only tipped 1%" is a statement of fact. If it were untrue, you could sue to recover whatever damages you suffered because of their lie, plus costs, less whatever damages you could have mitigated. If Ralphslate is a public figure you'll also have to show that was more than a simple mistake.
posted by tyllwin at 2:30 PM on July 25, 2005
ScottMorris, dude, jonmc was quoting Reservoir Dogs. Calm down.
posted by goatdog at 2:37 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by goatdog at 2:37 PM on July 25, 2005
fenriq writes "what's to stop people with a beef from just smearing anyone they don't like? Doesn't seem like there is any oversight to the posts."
Ya, It's really too bad the owners of bitterwaitress.com use an anonymiser service on their domain registration.
posted by Mitheral at 2:37 PM on July 25, 2005
Ya, It's really too bad the owners of bitterwaitress.com use an anonymiser service on their domain registration.
posted by Mitheral at 2:37 PM on July 25, 2005
If I found my name on the list, I believe I'd have a little conversation with the manager or owner.
My tips are proportional to the service quality and time we spent there - as in hourly wage. If we were there and served well for 2 hrs, and the server only had 1 table, I'd tip according to a good wage. something like that.
posted by tomplus2 at 2:39 PM on July 25, 2005
My tips are proportional to the service quality and time we spent there - as in hourly wage. If we were there and served well for 2 hrs, and the server only had 1 table, I'd tip according to a good wage. something like that.
posted by tomplus2 at 2:39 PM on July 25, 2005
Some posts seem to be justified:
Later that night I went out to Raven's night Club in Downtown Appleton, and ran into the rudest guest of the bunch. She recognized me, and invited me to come over, I walked over, and -I'll never forget this. "we really liked you as a waiter earlier, would you take our empty glasses to the bar for us, we are sick of looking at them." (WTH?)
posted by tomplus2 at 2:43 PM on July 25, 2005
Later that night I went out to Raven's night Club in Downtown Appleton, and ran into the rudest guest of the bunch. She recognized me, and invited me to come over, I walked over, and -I'll never forget this. "we really liked you as a waiter earlier, would you take our empty glasses to the bar for us, we are sick of looking at them." (WTH?)
posted by tomplus2 at 2:43 PM on July 25, 2005
If the world truly needs a "Stingy Patron" web page, would it not be appropriate to also have a corresponding "Patrons Who Gave Me A Big Fat Tip and To Whom I Shall Be Forever Greatful" web page? Or would the karmic balance struck by the latter undermine the snark value of the former?
(Methinks methinks too much.)
posted by ToasT at 2:44 PM on July 25, 2005
(Methinks methinks too much.)
posted by ToasT at 2:44 PM on July 25, 2005
27
Cali nailed it. If you don't want to tip, then stay home. And if you want to tip like a tightass, then don't be shocked to see your name in the database.
This is so one-sided. I can turn this around and say, if you don't want a shitty tip, don't give me shitty service.
That said, I can see one good use for this site to benefit the dining public - mine the database to see which dining establishments consistently attract the lowest tip percentages or even see which waitrons within a given dining establishment consistently get shitty tips.
All in all, this sounds like a great reason to start paying restaurant bills in cash.
posted by kcds at 2:46 PM on July 25, 2005
Cali nailed it. If you don't want to tip, then stay home. And if you want to tip like a tightass, then don't be shocked to see your name in the database.
This is so one-sided. I can turn this around and say, if you don't want a shitty tip, don't give me shitty service.
That said, I can see one good use for this site to benefit the dining public - mine the database to see which dining establishments consistently attract the lowest tip percentages or even see which waitrons within a given dining establishment consistently get shitty tips.
All in all, this sounds like a great reason to start paying restaurant bills in cash.
posted by kcds at 2:46 PM on July 25, 2005
famous names:
Britney Spears / Paris / Nikki , Jack Black, John Kerry, Kirsten Dunst, Tiger Woods, Tyra Banks, Queer Eye, etc.
posted by tomplus2 at 2:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Britney Spears / Paris / Nikki , Jack Black, John Kerry, Kirsten Dunst, Tiger Woods, Tyra Banks, Queer Eye, etc.
posted by tomplus2 at 2:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Put me in the camp of people who very nearly always tip at least 20%. Waitstaff makes less than minimum wage where I live. A standard tip is not a reward for special service. It is a part of their salary which I happen to be paying them directly, rather than indirectly through their place of business. Going *above* a standard tip could be considered a reward for special service.
I cannot remember going any place with a waiter that failed to do the job so profoundly that I did not think they merited getting paid for it. Where the hell are you people eating?
posted by kyrademon at 2:52 PM on July 25, 2005
I cannot remember going any place with a waiter that failed to do the job so profoundly that I did not think they merited getting paid for it. Where the hell are you people eating?
posted by kyrademon at 2:52 PM on July 25, 2005
elwoodwiles writes "Why do people eat in places with poor service? I've never understood the 'I'm trying to teach you a lesson' excuse for a bad tip."
Sometimes they're the only place open a 3AM. At one time where I lived there were only two food places open past midnight on Sundays. Both places had good and bad wait staff so we used to phone ahead to find out who was working before deciding where to go. What used to blow me is that often our group of 6-7 people would be the only people in at 1AM and we'd still get crappy service.
posted by Mitheral at 2:53 PM on July 25, 2005
Sometimes they're the only place open a 3AM. At one time where I lived there were only two food places open past midnight on Sundays. Both places had good and bad wait staff so we used to phone ahead to find out who was working before deciding where to go. What used to blow me is that often our group of 6-7 people would be the only people in at 1AM and we'd still get crappy service.
posted by Mitheral at 2:53 PM on July 25, 2005
If this devolves more into the "Why tip?" realm...
This happens at Metafilter every time we have a thread related to service staff and tipping.
Apparently, the Metafilter membership includes a large class that are entitled to eat in restaurants, entitled to good service at these restaurants, and entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion they're having regarding it's value.
posted by DuoJet at 2:54 PM on July 25, 2005
This happens at Metafilter every time we have a thread related to service staff and tipping.
Apparently, the Metafilter membership includes a large class that are entitled to eat in restaurants, entitled to good service at these restaurants, and entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion they're having regarding it's value.
posted by DuoJet at 2:54 PM on July 25, 2005
I just can't feel sorry for someone who gets a $60 tip, even if it is only 9%.
posted by tomplus2 at 2:56 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by tomplus2 at 2:56 PM on July 25, 2005
While working as a valet during college, I would always feel guilty if I received a tip that exceeded what I truly deserved. Usually the lack of service wasn't my fault, but being overtipped always made me work harder for the next customer.
It is probably my own pathology, but that's my mindset when I experience poor service. I was once so angry at a bartender that my friends had to pull me away from the bar while I was yelling obscenities - I bet the bartender was surprised at the 100% tip with "fuck you!!" written very prominently on the receipt. He probably thought I was retarded.
posted by mullacc at 2:57 PM on July 25, 2005
It is probably my own pathology, but that's my mindset when I experience poor service. I was once so angry at a bartender that my friends had to pull me away from the bar while I was yelling obscenities - I bet the bartender was surprised at the 100% tip with "fuck you!!" written very prominently on the receipt. He probably thought I was retarded.
posted by mullacc at 2:57 PM on July 25, 2005
Well, been a waiter and a customer, both, and I still think that automatic tipping is, as the man says, for the birds.
I cannot remember going any place with a waiter that failed to do the job so profoundly that I did not think they merited getting paid for it.
If someone deserves to be undertipped, the arrogance factor is going to make me want to not tip at all (not that I tend to). Why should I hand anyone any amount of money and have them hate me more for it?
And a guy I know who was waiting tables recently acknowledged that the serving staff rate people as potential tippers as they enter the restaurant, and then provide service accordingly. As one half of a two-lawyer relationship, people are making a big mistake thinking we won't tip well just because we're young and not dressed up. Their loss.
posted by dreamsign at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2005
I cannot remember going any place with a waiter that failed to do the job so profoundly that I did not think they merited getting paid for it.
If someone deserves to be undertipped, the arrogance factor is going to make me want to not tip at all (not that I tend to). Why should I hand anyone any amount of money and have them hate me more for it?
And a guy I know who was waiting tables recently acknowledged that the serving staff rate people as potential tippers as they enter the restaurant, and then provide service accordingly. As one half of a two-lawyer relationship, people are making a big mistake thinking we won't tip well just because we're young and not dressed up. Their loss.
posted by dreamsign at 3:00 PM on July 25, 2005
Duojet, you are aware that MetaFilter isn't just in the US? There are people from other countries where tipping isn't encouraged. You might want to keep that in mind when you're making blanket statements about people.
I do tip, I tip well but I don't tip well for shitty service from crappy entitlement waiters because they expect 25% tips for lame service. I'm an ex-waiter and ex-bartender, I hustled my ass to make good tips and I did. And I still got stiffed by jerks from time to time. There are people who don't tip, its just part of the deal.
If you don't want to be subjected to the whims of others in making your paycheck then find another line of work to get into.
Mitheral, I'm not intentionally being obtuse but I don't understand your reply to my comment. Can you elaborate so I can know if you're being sarcastic or not?
posted by fenriq at 3:03 PM on July 25, 2005
I do tip, I tip well but I don't tip well for shitty service from crappy entitlement waiters because they expect 25% tips for lame service. I'm an ex-waiter and ex-bartender, I hustled my ass to make good tips and I did. And I still got stiffed by jerks from time to time. There are people who don't tip, its just part of the deal.
If you don't want to be subjected to the whims of others in making your paycheck then find another line of work to get into.
Mitheral, I'm not intentionally being obtuse but I don't understand your reply to my comment. Can you elaborate so I can know if you're being sarcastic or not?
posted by fenriq at 3:03 PM on July 25, 2005
I don't understand the "they make more money than me so I leave shitty tips" excuse either.
I can understand this in some cases. For years I worked as a cook at some better restaurants where -- at the time -- there was either no tip sharing or a drastically reduced percentage. Any day I could have waited tables, and the serving staff simply did not have the skills to be able to do my job. But at several restaurants where friends have cooked, the serving staff won't speak to the kitchen staff, cooks included, because the money they make gives them this sense of entitlement that carries over into the social realm. (and it can be much, much greater than that of those cooks -- still the only trade where, before and after professional schooling, you basically make the same money)
posted by dreamsign at 3:03 PM on July 25, 2005
I can understand this in some cases. For years I worked as a cook at some better restaurants where -- at the time -- there was either no tip sharing or a drastically reduced percentage. Any day I could have waited tables, and the serving staff simply did not have the skills to be able to do my job. But at several restaurants where friends have cooked, the serving staff won't speak to the kitchen staff, cooks included, because the money they make gives them this sense of entitlement that carries over into the social realm. (and it can be much, much greater than that of those cooks -- still the only trade where, before and after professional schooling, you basically make the same money)
posted by dreamsign at 3:03 PM on July 25, 2005
There seems to be an assumption among many here that these shitty tips were deserved. In which case, they wouldn't be "shitty" tips, they'd be "fair" tips.
Personally, I rarely run into poor service, and therefore I always tip pretty well (20% or more). I feel for waitstaffers. They have to hustle, keep a pleasant demeanor, and rely on your generosity at the end of it all. I'm not saying that everyone on the list is getting a fair deal, but it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it. My guess is that most of these evaluations are fair.
posted by 27 at 3:06 PM on July 25, 2005
Personally, I rarely run into poor service, and therefore I always tip pretty well (20% or more). I feel for waitstaffers. They have to hustle, keep a pleasant demeanor, and rely on your generosity at the end of it all. I'm not saying that everyone on the list is getting a fair deal, but it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it. My guess is that most of these evaluations are fair.
posted by 27 at 3:06 PM on July 25, 2005
Duojet, you are aware that MetaFilter isn't just in the US?
If this is you, then obviously you are not included under my "entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion..." blanket.
posted by DuoJet at 3:09 PM on July 25, 2005
If this is you, then obviously you are not included under my "entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion..." blanket.
posted by DuoJet at 3:09 PM on July 25, 2005
Obviously this doesn't apply to the many posters in the "tip nothing if service is bad" camp who have mentioned they have worked as waiters, but I can't help but wonder how many of the people on that side of the issue would be bitching about crappy tippers loudly and frequently if the profession *they* happened to be in had most of its income coming from on voluntary payments based on nothing but their clients' unpredictable mood.
I suspect we'd suddenly hear a lot of computer techs, lawyers, middle managers, teachers, nurses, or what have you bitching about stingy clients who stiffed them for no good reason. They might continue to undertip everybody else, but I think the argument might ... shift a little.
posted by kyrademon at 3:09 PM on July 25, 2005
I suspect we'd suddenly hear a lot of computer techs, lawyers, middle managers, teachers, nurses, or what have you bitching about stingy clients who stiffed them for no good reason. They might continue to undertip everybody else, but I think the argument might ... shift a little.
posted by kyrademon at 3:09 PM on July 25, 2005
As one half of a two-lawyer relationship, people are making a big mistake thinking we won't tip well just because we're young and not dressed up. Their loss.
Maybe they're correctly indentifying you and your spouse as lawyers and thus properly downgrading the quality of service according to the potential for tips.
posted by mullacc at 3:11 PM on July 25, 2005
Maybe they're correctly indentifying you and your spouse as lawyers and thus properly downgrading the quality of service according to the potential for tips.
posted by mullacc at 3:11 PM on July 25, 2005
So the people complaining about tipping in this thread are actually not from the US, and therefore really have no argument with the rabidly pro-tip crowd? If we can assume that there isn't some giant glitch in this argument from the get-go, that we're clearly arguing about tipping in the US, except where carefully noted, can we assume DuoJet is making blanket statements that only apply to the US-based mefites? Especially since DuoJet didn't refer to the entirety of the metafilter user-base, he referred to a subset of it?
posted by hototogisu at 3:11 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by hototogisu at 3:11 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm kind of disappointed in the John Kerry stuff, assuming it's true and not some people with a political axe to grind... not that I'm surprised, but you'd think that the guy would have tried a little harder to be more generous to working people on the campaign. But, is chronic undertipping a rich person thing? I had heard that, but I don't know too many blue-bloods myself to validate that.
posted by psmealey at 3:12 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by psmealey at 3:12 PM on July 25, 2005
(Further explaining my previous comment, I suspect we would suddenly hear from an awful lot of people who, when they undertip, are punishing poor service, but when they *are undertipped*, it is because they've been screwed by ungrateful stingy bastards. Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but I doubt it.)
posted by kyrademon at 3:15 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by kyrademon at 3:15 PM on July 25, 2005
psmealey: I'm not sure if it's a rich person thing, but my experience is that a $3 tip for valet service from someone pulling up in a Bentley is irksome while a $3 tip from the shabbily dressed guy in the '89 Civic is almost inspiring.
posted by mullacc at 3:16 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by mullacc at 3:16 PM on July 25, 2005
Apparently, the Metafilter membership includes a large class that are entitled to eat in restaurants, entitled to good service at these restaurants, and entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion they're having regarding it's value.
That's pretty much why a tip isn't just added as a fixed-rate surcharge, right? The whole thing about how I get to decide how much to tip? Doesn't that pretty much by definition suggest that I am "entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion [I'm] having regarding it's value"?
Seriously, I don't get your resentment towards a customer's entitlement. Is the situation the reverse and the server is entitled to a hefty precentage of my bill regardless of whether or not he or she tried?
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:22 PM on July 25, 2005
That's pretty much why a tip isn't just added as a fixed-rate surcharge, right? The whole thing about how I get to decide how much to tip? Doesn't that pretty much by definition suggest that I am "entitled to render payment for said service based on whatever notion [I'm] having regarding it's value"?
Seriously, I don't get your resentment towards a customer's entitlement. Is the situation the reverse and the server is entitled to a hefty precentage of my bill regardless of whether or not he or she tried?
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:22 PM on July 25, 2005
Great point, kyrademon. I wouldn't want to be put in that position. The number of days that I do an "great" job at work versus the number of days that I "just get the job done" would have me in the poorhouse in a minute based on a lot of the opinions expressed here.
posted by 27 at 3:23 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by 27 at 3:23 PM on July 25, 2005
fenriq writes "Mitheral, I'm not intentionally being obtuse but I don't understand your reply to my comment. Can you elaborate so I can know if you're being sarcastic or not?"
I'm agreeing with you that there is no verification of identity or tip or service. Often the best way to drive this point home to people running these kinds of lists is to add them into the listings with bad/ugly information. So if I could have figured out Mr. Bitterwaitress's name I would have added them with bill/tip amounts like 366.20/0.15 and some over the top story about how demanding they were.
27 writes "I'm not saying that everyone on the list is getting a fair deal, but it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it."
But there is no verification. We don't know if the submitters have even seen any of the famous people listed.
posted by Mitheral at 3:25 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm agreeing with you that there is no verification of identity or tip or service. Often the best way to drive this point home to people running these kinds of lists is to add them into the listings with bad/ugly information. So if I could have figured out Mr. Bitterwaitress's name I would have added them with bill/tip amounts like 366.20/0.15 and some over the top story about how demanding they were.
27 writes "I'm not saying that everyone on the list is getting a fair deal, but it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it."
But there is no verification. We don't know if the submitters have even seen any of the famous people listed.
posted by Mitheral at 3:25 PM on July 25, 2005
Because waitstaff recieves tips, minimum wage laws do not apply to restaurants.When customers leave no tip on a bill they have essentailly taken free labor from the server, which last I checked was called slavery.
Hey, ScottMorris, check your head and figure out whose fault this pay situation is. The customer? Bullshit. The slavery is imposed by the owners of the restaurants. What other industry other than farming is out there where the employers can pay less than minimum wage? I undersatnd that there are areas where, due to whatever reason outside the waitron's control, it is hard-to-damn near impossible to make ends meet. If the waitstaff in those areas simply refused to work for shit, the situations might change, especially if they got together to work it out.
Y'know, I worked for years in a job where I had NO guaranteed wage. I only got a percentage on what I sold (and when the bill was paid). So, I think that there are clubs/bars/restaurants where the self-confident will work for $2.15 and earn $60K. But in the Big Boy's and Denny's of the world, working for $2.15 plus tips is just plain dumb and it is not my fault. That is "Volunteer Slavery"!
posted by beelzbubba at 3:26 PM on July 25, 2005
Hey, ScottMorris, check your head and figure out whose fault this pay situation is. The customer? Bullshit. The slavery is imposed by the owners of the restaurants. What other industry other than farming is out there where the employers can pay less than minimum wage? I undersatnd that there are areas where, due to whatever reason outside the waitron's control, it is hard-to-damn near impossible to make ends meet. If the waitstaff in those areas simply refused to work for shit, the situations might change, especially if they got together to work it out.
Y'know, I worked for years in a job where I had NO guaranteed wage. I only got a percentage on what I sold (and when the bill was paid). So, I think that there are clubs/bars/restaurants where the self-confident will work for $2.15 and earn $60K. But in the Big Boy's and Denny's of the world, working for $2.15 plus tips is just plain dumb and it is not my fault. That is "Volunteer Slavery"!
posted by beelzbubba at 3:26 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm the kind of guy that likes to keep things simple. I always give 20%, no matter how good or bad the service is. If I get good service, then great! That means that the person is doing their job. If I get lousy service, oh well! Maybe they were just having an off night. I've been on the other side of the table, so I know how it goes.
I look at it this way - servers rely on tips as part of their income. My guess is that most of them figure that they'll get about 17%, so my 20% is always a little more then they'll be expecting.
(Really, I think the whole tipping thing is stupid. It would be better if the food just cost a bit more and the waitstaff got a steady wage. They do a job just like everyone else, right?)
posted by afroblanca at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
I look at it this way - servers rely on tips as part of their income. My guess is that most of them figure that they'll get about 17%, so my 20% is always a little more then they'll be expecting.
(Really, I think the whole tipping thing is stupid. It would be better if the food just cost a bit more and the waitstaff got a steady wage. They do a job just like everyone else, right?)
posted by afroblanca at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
I cannot remember going any place with a waiter that failed to do the job so profoundly that I did not think they merited getting paid for it. Where the hell are you people eating?
Sometimes, you know, restaurants hire new servers. Sometimes said servers suck ass. What would you tip if (at a previously acceptable establishment): you don't get menus for 30 minutes; you don't get a bill for another 30 minutes after you've finished; the bill is wrong and needs to be changed; the waitress takes your $20 and disappears for 20 minutes; then she comes back with your bill again, and can't seem to remember taking your money? I left a dollar and never returned. I'm suspect she's been fired since, but do you tempt fate again? I might (especially cuz it's right across the street from my apartment).
I somewhat agree with the "alternative tipping strategies," especially the one based on time spent serving and a fair wage, but in America I do not think this is an option. It's almost like saying, "Oh, I see no harm in trespassing or public urination. Who cares if I whiz on this guy's lawn?" Sometimes you just have to follow local customs, or find an "alternative" restaurant that agrees with your tipping policies.
it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it
The first detail I looked at was a $.50 tip on $19 ... at McDonald's. Right. I think lots of people would go to said "trouble," especially when a fake celebrity is involved.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
Sometimes, you know, restaurants hire new servers. Sometimes said servers suck ass. What would you tip if (at a previously acceptable establishment): you don't get menus for 30 minutes; you don't get a bill for another 30 minutes after you've finished; the bill is wrong and needs to be changed; the waitress takes your $20 and disappears for 20 minutes; then she comes back with your bill again, and can't seem to remember taking your money? I left a dollar and never returned. I'm suspect she's been fired since, but do you tempt fate again? I might (especially cuz it's right across the street from my apartment).
I somewhat agree with the "alternative tipping strategies," especially the one based on time spent serving and a fair wage, but in America I do not think this is an option. It's almost like saying, "Oh, I see no harm in trespassing or public urination. Who cares if I whiz on this guy's lawn?" Sometimes you just have to follow local customs, or find an "alternative" restaurant that agrees with your tipping policies.
it's my opinion that these people wouldn't go to the trouble of posting somebody to the database who doesn't deserve it
The first detail I looked at was a $.50 tip on $19 ... at McDonald's. Right. I think lots of people would go to said "trouble," especially when a fake celebrity is involved.
posted by mrgrimm at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm not complaining about tipping. I know that tips are a huge part of the waitperson's income. But knowing that and mindless plunking down 20% regardless of the kind of service you got is stupid and further reinforces their entitlement mentality.
Bad waitstaff shouldn't get tipped as well as good waitstaff. For two reasons, it discourages the good waitstaff from trying harder and it encourages the crappy waitstaff to be crappy at their job.
What I can't see on this database are the waitstaff asking themselves why they got such a shitty tip and whether it was their fault or not. In many cases, it is thier fault they got a crappy tip and they don't want to know it, they want to complain about the assholes they have to serve.
Mitheral, thanks for the explanation, I thought you were agreeing but I wasn't quite sure.
posted by fenriq at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
Bad waitstaff shouldn't get tipped as well as good waitstaff. For two reasons, it discourages the good waitstaff from trying harder and it encourages the crappy waitstaff to be crappy at their job.
What I can't see on this database are the waitstaff asking themselves why they got such a shitty tip and whether it was their fault or not. In many cases, it is thier fault they got a crappy tip and they don't want to know it, they want to complain about the assholes they have to serve.
Mitheral, thanks for the explanation, I thought you were agreeing but I wasn't quite sure.
posted by fenriq at 3:28 PM on July 25, 2005
There seems to be an assumption among many here that these shitty tips were deserved. In which case, they wouldn't be "shitty" tips, they'd be "fair" tips.
Isn't this simply countering the actual assumption that the people on this site weren't tipping fairly? Is there any effort to sort the fair tippers from the stingy schmucks?
Maybe they're correctly indentifying you and your spouse as lawyers and thus properly downgrading the quality of service according to the potential for tips.
Then you haven't been out with lawyers, who in my experience either:
- CRAZILY overtip as a means of impressing who they're with (client, potential associates/partners, social contacts)
- largely overtip because they can afford to, or at least
- fairly tip because this is how a LOT of people put themselves through law school
I have yet to be out with a lawyer who undertips, but then the only lawyers I know socially are (left-leaning, social democrat) government lawyers, and (still marvelling at their fortune) big firm junior lawyers, not the starving defence attorney or pennywise single-lawyer firm-above-the-drycleaners types (and nothing wrong with either of those).
As an aside, we're usually in the 20-25% range, I would say about 8 out of 10 times we dine out, with another 1 of 10 on the high and 1 of 10 on the low side of that. And this in a country where, every place I've lived, minimum wage for serving staff is the law.
posted by dreamsign at 3:32 PM on July 25, 2005
Isn't this simply countering the actual assumption that the people on this site weren't tipping fairly? Is there any effort to sort the fair tippers from the stingy schmucks?
Maybe they're correctly indentifying you and your spouse as lawyers and thus properly downgrading the quality of service according to the potential for tips.
Then you haven't been out with lawyers, who in my experience either:
- CRAZILY overtip as a means of impressing who they're with (client, potential associates/partners, social contacts)
- largely overtip because they can afford to, or at least
- fairly tip because this is how a LOT of people put themselves through law school
I have yet to be out with a lawyer who undertips, but then the only lawyers I know socially are (left-leaning, social democrat) government lawyers, and (still marvelling at their fortune) big firm junior lawyers, not the starving defence attorney or pennywise single-lawyer firm-above-the-drycleaners types (and nothing wrong with either of those).
As an aside, we're usually in the 20-25% range, I would say about 8 out of 10 times we dine out, with another 1 of 10 on the high and 1 of 10 on the low side of that. And this in a country where, every place I've lived, minimum wage for serving staff is the law.
posted by dreamsign at 3:32 PM on July 25, 2005
I used to deliver pizza and we'd get our shared of people who would stiff us for tip completely. In that case, we'd really suffer because we were paying our own gas costs out of the tips.
We were stiffed pretty equally, no matter how rich or poor the neighbourhood. The nice houses up the side of Burnaby Mountain were just as likely to give exact change as the welfare-level apartments along Broadway.
I generally tip 10%. If the service was good and the food was above average, I tip 15-20%. If they really went out of their way to help us enjoy our meal, 25%.
If they treated us like crap or fed us really horrible food, 0-5%. Unfortunately that happens a lot. I don't generally leave them a note why, though I do think it's a good idea.
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:34 PM on July 25, 2005
We were stiffed pretty equally, no matter how rich or poor the neighbourhood. The nice houses up the side of Burnaby Mountain were just as likely to give exact change as the welfare-level apartments along Broadway.
I generally tip 10%. If the service was good and the food was above average, I tip 15-20%. If they really went out of their way to help us enjoy our meal, 25%.
If they treated us like crap or fed us really horrible food, 0-5%. Unfortunately that happens a lot. I don't generally leave them a note why, though I do think it's a good idea.
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:34 PM on July 25, 2005
It just seems so unfair being instantaneously judged on your performance as a way of determining your wages. Also, some pretty waitresses use this to their advantage and make tons of tip money at nice restaurants. It cuts both ways. But it remains a tough job after all. Given that there's no healthcare or safety net in these jobs, I suppose tipping well really does make a difference - and it's an expectation as well.
posted by faux ami at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by faux ami at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
The first detail I looked at was a $.50 tip on $19 ... at McDonald's.
Who the hell tips at McDonald's?? They're not serving you at all, you have to go up to the trough and stand in line to place you order, they hand you a tray, and you go seat yourself (usually at a table that hasn't been cleaned in 10 sittings). There's absolutely no reason to reward a lack of service!
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
Who the hell tips at McDonald's?? They're not serving you at all, you have to go up to the trough and stand in line to place you order, they hand you a tray, and you go seat yourself (usually at a table that hasn't been cleaned in 10 sittings). There's absolutely no reason to reward a lack of service!
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
I waited tables for many years. If I'd worked hard to provide good service, I'd expect to receive a tip in the range from 15 to 20 percent. The reason why I have this expectation is because I believe I am working for the patron, not the restaurant. I know that "gratuity" means "gift," but realistically most servers (and most diners) realize that a tip is an exchange of money for services.
Is there anything to enforce an expectation of tipping? Well, nothing other than etiquette, which is another way of waying "shared social standards." And obviously not everyone agrees on this. Sometimes a server gets less than expected: either the server doesn't provide the best service (for whatever reason, and it isn't always the server's fault) or someone's an asshole.
It was because I expected good tips that I would bust my ass to supply good service. And yeah, I would get pissed off when I didn't get good tips. Most servers will get pissed off about a bad tip whether the service had been good or not.
If you're concerned that tips are excessive, then maybe people's attitudes will shift. But in most cases you get what you pay for: as the tips go down, service suffers. (If you want to become a regular, don't tip badly. They will remember.)
posted by Scooter at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
Is there anything to enforce an expectation of tipping? Well, nothing other than etiquette, which is another way of waying "shared social standards." And obviously not everyone agrees on this. Sometimes a server gets less than expected: either the server doesn't provide the best service (for whatever reason, and it isn't always the server's fault) or someone's an asshole.
It was because I expected good tips that I would bust my ass to supply good service. And yeah, I would get pissed off when I didn't get good tips. Most servers will get pissed off about a bad tip whether the service had been good or not.
If you're concerned that tips are excessive, then maybe people's attitudes will shift. But in most cases you get what you pay for: as the tips go down, service suffers. (If you want to become a regular, don't tip badly. They will remember.)
posted by Scooter at 3:38 PM on July 25, 2005
Oh yeah, and I fully acknowledge tipping for big boobs in low-cut tops. ;-)
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:39 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:39 PM on July 25, 2005
Hahaha... poor Waitrons. Living a life dependent on the charity of others, and whining about it.
Don't like shitty tips? Work someplace else.
I have a gold standard:
- water glass filled always
- if it's non-stop pop, I better not see the bottom
- questions about the menu, if any, shouldn't be a surprise, and some knowledge should be displayed
- mistakes/complaints, if any, are acknowledged with a smile and dealt with professionally and promptly
- don't make me feel like I'm putting you out of more important things going on in your oh so important life
Do that, you earned 15%. Do more to earn more (deal with food problems BEFORE they occur, for instance (eg. "I'm sorry, but the chef made a mistake. He's making you a new item right away.")). Do less and earn less. Seriously fuck up and I leave nothing, and I'll let people know about the shit service I received.
The only time it seems that I've ever left ZERO is at corporate fast-food-on-a-plate chain restaurants like Earl's/Applebee's/Olive Garden/etc... . Large proportions of too-cool-for-the-world waitstaff who'd rather only serve other shiny happy people.
When I go to a supposedly snooty upscale retaurant, one thing I've been lucky to receive is almost uniformly excellent service.
posted by C.Batt at 3:42 PM on July 25, 2005
Don't like shitty tips? Work someplace else.
I have a gold standard:
- water glass filled always
- if it's non-stop pop, I better not see the bottom
- questions about the menu, if any, shouldn't be a surprise, and some knowledge should be displayed
- mistakes/complaints, if any, are acknowledged with a smile and dealt with professionally and promptly
- don't make me feel like I'm putting you out of more important things going on in your oh so important life
Do that, you earned 15%. Do more to earn more (deal with food problems BEFORE they occur, for instance (eg. "I'm sorry, but the chef made a mistake. He's making you a new item right away.")). Do less and earn less. Seriously fuck up and I leave nothing, and I'll let people know about the shit service I received.
The only time it seems that I've ever left ZERO is at corporate fast-food-on-a-plate chain restaurants like Earl's/Applebee's/Olive Garden/etc... . Large proportions of too-cool-for-the-world waitstaff who'd rather only serve other shiny happy people.
When I go to a supposedly snooty upscale retaurant, one thing I've been lucky to receive is almost uniformly excellent service.
posted by C.Batt at 3:42 PM on July 25, 2005
fenriq says : I'm not complaining about tipping. I know that tips are a huge part of the waitperson's income. But knowing that and mindless plunking down 20% regardless of the kind of service you got is stupid and further reinforces their entitlement mentality.
Ok, now I don't know what you do for a living, but, for the sake of argument, let's just say that it isn't as a server. Do you get paid less if you have an off-day? If not, why should they?
posted by afroblanca at 3:43 PM on July 25, 2005
Ok, now I don't know what you do for a living, but, for the sake of argument, let's just say that it isn't as a server. Do you get paid less if you have an off-day? If not, why should they?
posted by afroblanca at 3:43 PM on July 25, 2005
I call shenanigans. Why is this the only mention of the "Black Magic Bar and Grill" on the internet? I've never heard of the place.
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:44 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Kickstart70 at 3:44 PM on July 25, 2005
just to add: I've now had the misfortune to settle in our nation's capital, where bad food and worse service seems the norm, so forget that --out-of-ten rating I gave, which primarily applies to Vancouver, Winnipeg, and Toronto.
posted by dreamsign at 3:45 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by dreamsign at 3:45 PM on July 25, 2005
This tipping insanity has to stop! Fifteen percent was a perfectly acceptable tip before the dot.com bubble. Then, at about the same time Pets.com's market capitalization surpassed that of GE's, 20 became the standard. Add to that the fact that generous tipping now seems to be expected for just about everything these days, and it becomes clear that things are getting out of hand. Tip you, fair barista, for handing me my $1.79 coffee just now? Bullshit. You get health benefits!
It's time the US got its act together and paid servers a decent base wage. That would give the servers a fair deal, and customers could still throw in a bit more for exemplary service.
In the meantime, all my waiters get 15 if they do a decent job. Poor or just "ok" service gets 10-15. Terrible service gets nothing. If you recommend a good special or resemble Angelina Jolie, you might get 20.
posted by nyterrant at 3:47 PM on July 25, 2005
It's time the US got its act together and paid servers a decent base wage. That would give the servers a fair deal, and customers could still throw in a bit more for exemplary service.
In the meantime, all my waiters get 15 if they do a decent job. Poor or just "ok" service gets 10-15. Terrible service gets nothing. If you recommend a good special or resemble Angelina Jolie, you might get 20.
posted by nyterrant at 3:47 PM on July 25, 2005
"Hahaha... poor Waitrons. Living a life dependent on the charity of others, and whining about it. Don't like shitty tips? Work someplace else." - C.Batt
See, this is why I spit in people's food. I'm not a waiter, nor do I work at a restaurant; I just spit in people's food.
posted by kyrademon at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
See, this is why I spit in people's food. I'm not a waiter, nor do I work at a restaurant; I just spit in people's food.
posted by kyrademon at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
I tip 20% nearly always, or what afroblanca said above.
I've worked for tips, as has my wife. Sometimes I get tips doing the remodel work I do today.
If you are impressed by service, tip. Always tip for sit-down type food. I sometimes tip for non-food transactions, but not as much. I gave they guy who changed my tires $10 on top of the $475 for new tires.
Waitpeople are paid less than min wage. About half. Tips are their real bread and butter.
There's no other way to put it. Getting a check for $214 every two weeks for the hours you put in waiting tables won't even pay the rent.
If you tip less than 'the minimum' be that 10% or whatever, you are literally taking the food off these people's plates.
posted by Balisong at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
I've worked for tips, as has my wife. Sometimes I get tips doing the remodel work I do today.
If you are impressed by service, tip. Always tip for sit-down type food. I sometimes tip for non-food transactions, but not as much. I gave they guy who changed my tires $10 on top of the $475 for new tires.
Waitpeople are paid less than min wage. About half. Tips are their real bread and butter.
There's no other way to put it. Getting a check for $214 every two weeks for the hours you put in waiting tables won't even pay the rent.
If you tip less than 'the minimum' be that 10% or whatever, you are literally taking the food off these people's plates.
posted by Balisong at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
dreamsign: Mostly I was kidding, but when I've noticed the tipping habits of lawyers it has always been on the low side (this could be selection bias, of course). Anyway, my experience is has been:
1 - As a valet at a very nice golf resort. I worked through several conventions for corporate laywers and the whole staff would dread it for weeks in advance. Only the doctors and professional golfers were worse.
2 - My client interactions involving lawyers has also always included bankers (with me in tow as a junior banker). In those scenarios, the bankers tip big and the laywers usually play it cheap. But our bill to the client is much bigger too.
posted by mullacc at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
1 - As a valet at a very nice golf resort. I worked through several conventions for corporate laywers and the whole staff would dread it for weeks in advance. Only the doctors and professional golfers were worse.
2 - My client interactions involving lawyers has also always included bankers (with me in tow as a junior banker). In those scenarios, the bankers tip big and the laywers usually play it cheap. But our bill to the client is much bigger too.
posted by mullacc at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
The only time it seems that I've ever left ZERO is at corporate fast-food-on-a-plate chain restaurants like Earl's/Applebee's/Olive Garden/etc... . Large proportions of too-cool-for-the-world waitstaff who'd rather only serve other shiny happy people.
I've had the opposite experience, of sing-actor-mimes/waitresses at tony little restaurants who would rather wait on fellow evolved beings or stay at home writing bad poetry. But I still leave something, because even shitheads deserve to make a living.
posted by jonmc at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
I've had the opposite experience, of sing-actor-mimes/waitresses at tony little restaurants who would rather wait on fellow evolved beings or stay at home writing bad poetry. But I still leave something, because even shitheads deserve to make a living.
posted by jonmc at 3:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Ban tipping. That way people get paid a dignified wage instead of having to grovel for change, and diners don't have to stress about precisely what percentage is acceptable.
(I feel uncomfortable with the whole concept. Just charge me more for the food/hotel/whatever in the first place.)
posted by malevolent at 3:53 PM on July 25, 2005
(I feel uncomfortable with the whole concept. Just charge me more for the food/hotel/whatever in the first place.)
posted by malevolent at 3:53 PM on July 25, 2005
Interesting, mullacc. No doubt you've been exposed to more across a wider field than I have.
Somehow doesn't surprise me about corporate/firm events, though. I tend to be more conservative (example: using vouchers for taxis) when it's not on my dime because, well... it's not on my dime. Same reason I take better care of other people's stuff when lent to me than I do my own. It doesn't belong to me.
All this being said, I hated being a waiter, had no talent for hiding bad days or being nice to rude people (and didn't want to be) and got tipped appropriately. But I didn't seethe at my patrons for doing so because my sense of entitlement was nil. As a cook I became bitter because the more money the servers got, the worse their attitude got. That strikes me as socially, emotionally, ethically imbalanced.
posted by dreamsign at 3:57 PM on July 25, 2005
Somehow doesn't surprise me about corporate/firm events, though. I tend to be more conservative (example: using vouchers for taxis) when it's not on my dime because, well... it's not on my dime. Same reason I take better care of other people's stuff when lent to me than I do my own. It doesn't belong to me.
All this being said, I hated being a waiter, had no talent for hiding bad days or being nice to rude people (and didn't want to be) and got tipped appropriately. But I didn't seethe at my patrons for doing so because my sense of entitlement was nil. As a cook I became bitter because the more money the servers got, the worse their attitude got. That strikes me as socially, emotionally, ethically imbalanced.
posted by dreamsign at 3:57 PM on July 25, 2005
It really isn't about to-tip-or-not-to-tip for me. My problem with this website is the egregious betrayal of trust. Someone is taking your credit card and using it to post your name to the web without your permission.
That is beyond the pale.
I'm tempted to go on an untertipping spree just to see if I can get my name up there, trace it back to the restaurant, and have a talk with the manager.
Except I probably couldn't bring myself to undertip.
posted by frykitty at 3:58 PM on July 25, 2005
That is beyond the pale.
I'm tempted to go on an untertipping spree just to see if I can get my name up there, trace it back to the restaurant, and have a talk with the manager.
Except I probably couldn't bring myself to undertip.
posted by frykitty at 3:58 PM on July 25, 2005
It just seems so unfair being instantaneously judged on your performance as a way of determining your wages.
Wait, you're suggesting that it's unfair that there exists a relationship between the quality of your work and how much you are rewarded for it? Isn't that the ultimate meritocracy -- the better you work the more you get paid, and you get instant feedback? That seems far preferable to a lot of other systems to me.
It encourages people to work hard, gives them feedback on how they're doing, and rewards those who put in the effort to do things right. I agree that everyone has a bad day every now and then, but in the end it averages out pretty quickly. What's so wrong about rewarding those who care about doing a good job and put in the effort to do so?
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 4:03 PM on July 25, 2005
Wait, you're suggesting that it's unfair that there exists a relationship between the quality of your work and how much you are rewarded for it? Isn't that the ultimate meritocracy -- the better you work the more you get paid, and you get instant feedback? That seems far preferable to a lot of other systems to me.
It encourages people to work hard, gives them feedback on how they're doing, and rewards those who put in the effort to do things right. I agree that everyone has a bad day every now and then, but in the end it averages out pretty quickly. What's so wrong about rewarding those who care about doing a good job and put in the effort to do so?
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 4:03 PM on July 25, 2005
While not related directly to waitron tips, this Esquire article [pdf] exploring the power of a $20 tip (or bribe, more accurately) is fascinating to me.
I recently overtipped the moving van driver after he packed my stuff up in the Bay Area. It paid off big time when my belongings arrived in NYC almost a week early - saved me a ton of time/annoyance and probably a few nights hotel bill.
posted by mullacc at 4:03 PM on July 25, 2005
I recently overtipped the moving van driver after he packed my stuff up in the Bay Area. It paid off big time when my belongings arrived in NYC almost a week early - saved me a ton of time/annoyance and probably a few nights hotel bill.
posted by mullacc at 4:03 PM on July 25, 2005
Waitpeople are paid less than min wage. About half. Tips are their real bread and butter.
That may be true in some locales, but not all. Here in BC they are not exempt from minimum wage laws, and the minimum wage is fairly reasonable (especially when compared to much of the U.S.).
KS
posted by Kickstart70 at 4:05 PM on July 25, 2005
That may be true in some locales, but not all. Here in BC they are not exempt from minimum wage laws, and the minimum wage is fairly reasonable (especially when compared to much of the U.S.).
KS
posted by Kickstart70 at 4:05 PM on July 25, 2005
if it's non-stop pop, I better not see the bottom C.Batt
Dude, Chuck E. Cheese fucking rocks...
posted by docpops at 4:09 PM on July 25, 2005
Dude, Chuck E. Cheese fucking rocks...
posted by docpops at 4:09 PM on July 25, 2005
The whole "waiters make way more money than me" argument reminds me of the old right-wing canard about welfare recipients driving around in luxury cars. Those who espouse it are, I suspect, making a lame excuse for their own stinginess instead of making an argument they really believe in.
I haven't been pulling in any income all summer, but I'm still tipping at least 17 percent. Just because they make more money than me doesn't mean they make a lot of money. And I like to think I'm shouldering for the load of the pricks who treat waitpersons like their personal slaves.
I also try to look for the difference between shitty service on the part of the waitperson, and the stupid crap that goes behind the scenes at restaurants (which sometimes affects a server's attitude or ability to serve). Sometimes a certain cook doesn't like a certain server, and makes life difficult for him or her just to be an ass. A lot of restaurant managers are dicks too, particularly at the big franchise restaurants. One look at some of those guys makes me automatically sympathetic toward anyone who has to work for them.
posted by hifiparasol at 4:18 PM on July 25, 2005
I haven't been pulling in any income all summer, but I'm still tipping at least 17 percent. Just because they make more money than me doesn't mean they make a lot of money. And I like to think I'm shouldering for the load of the pricks who treat waitpersons like their personal slaves.
I also try to look for the difference between shitty service on the part of the waitperson, and the stupid crap that goes behind the scenes at restaurants (which sometimes affects a server's attitude or ability to serve). Sometimes a certain cook doesn't like a certain server, and makes life difficult for him or her just to be an ass. A lot of restaurant managers are dicks too, particularly at the big franchise restaurants. One look at some of those guys makes me automatically sympathetic toward anyone who has to work for them.
posted by hifiparasol at 4:18 PM on July 25, 2005
Tipping is really symptomatic of class struggle.
How many waitrons do you know who have an equity stake in the establishment? Personally, I've never met one. If this were common, we'd see them making better wages, and there'd be no more need for tips in bars/restaurants than in any other line of work.
Instead, the bourgeois establishment owners pay slave wages to the help, and expect customers to make up the difference. Realistically, we should be paying this through the overall bill. Of course, this only assumes fairness in the event that service is uniformly satisfactory. The site would have us believe that it is, but we all know otherwise.
posted by mullingitover at 4:20 PM on July 25, 2005
How many waitrons do you know who have an equity stake in the establishment? Personally, I've never met one. If this were common, we'd see them making better wages, and there'd be no more need for tips in bars/restaurants than in any other line of work.
Instead, the bourgeois establishment owners pay slave wages to the help, and expect customers to make up the difference. Realistically, we should be paying this through the overall bill. Of course, this only assumes fairness in the event that service is uniformly satisfactory. The site would have us believe that it is, but we all know otherwise.
posted by mullingitover at 4:20 PM on July 25, 2005
Anonymous domain registration is hardly ever any guarantee of anonymity these days. In the interests of full disclosure, especially since these folks don't mind putting other people's names up on *their* site, feel free to contact the site owner directly - Chris Fehlinger, cfehlinger@yahoo.com.
(Address, phone and fax were easy to find as well, but that'd be mean.)
FWIW, I do tip 15-20%, used to work for tips myself and agree that people who don't tip out of cheapness or stupidity suck. On the other hand I don't think it's particularly nice to pull people's names off their credit card receipts to rant about them online. Plus if the level of discourse on the site's forums is any indication of the general mentality of the undertipped servers represented there, well, maybe those shitty tips were deserved.
posted by herichon at 4:28 PM on July 25, 2005
(Address, phone and fax were easy to find as well, but that'd be mean.)
FWIW, I do tip 15-20%, used to work for tips myself and agree that people who don't tip out of cheapness or stupidity suck. On the other hand I don't think it's particularly nice to pull people's names off their credit card receipts to rant about them online. Plus if the level of discourse on the site's forums is any indication of the general mentality of the undertipped servers represented there, well, maybe those shitty tips were deserved.
posted by herichon at 4:28 PM on July 25, 2005
In Israel service is virtually always included, and you can just pay what the bill says to the shekel and walk out. This is because Israelis love to fuck each other over, and were a service charge not spelled out, people would just not pay anything.
Tipping is just a fucked social institution, if you ask me. If it supplants a salary, it should be set at a predetermined %, made mandatory, and included in the bill. If it's a way for patrons to to recognize exceptional service, it should be totally up to the customer. The current system is just too frustrating to both waiters/waitresses and their patrons (as this thread demonstrates).
posted by ori at 4:36 PM on July 25, 2005
Tipping is just a fucked social institution, if you ask me. If it supplants a salary, it should be set at a predetermined %, made mandatory, and included in the bill. If it's a way for patrons to to recognize exceptional service, it should be totally up to the customer. The current system is just too frustrating to both waiters/waitresses and their patrons (as this thread demonstrates).
posted by ori at 4:36 PM on July 25, 2005
Just so you know, in the USA "tips" are counted as income according to the IRS, and are taxed at 17% I think.
posted by Balisong at 4:53 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Balisong at 4:53 PM on July 25, 2005
That said, I can see one good use for this site to benefit the dining public
Another use I see is to help me decide which restaurants I should avoid because the staff is likely to retain and misuse credit card information.
Also, if I keep my receipt, I can also make sure the information on which person is doing this makes it back to the manager
posted by obfusciatrist at 5:00 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
Another use I see is to help me decide which restaurants I should avoid because the staff is likely to retain and misuse credit card information.
Also, if I keep my receipt, I can also make sure the information on which person is doing this makes it back to the manager
posted by obfusciatrist at 5:00 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
Oh my God, Jeff Tasker of Florida bought a $4.75 meal and didn't leave a tip!
Whereas my dad lives up to his Jewish steretype and almost never tips, and is totally absent from the database.
This thing is ridiculus.
posted by Citizen Premier at 5:06 PM on July 25, 2005
Whereas my dad lives up to his Jewish steretype and almost never tips, and is totally absent from the database.
This thing is ridiculus.
posted by Citizen Premier at 5:06 PM on July 25, 2005
I have been known to leave no tip whatsoever for service which does't meet even the very most basic of expectations.
You sir are part of the problem.
Always leave at least a penny, so it's clear that you did it on purpose.
posted by mosch at 5:11 PM on July 25, 2005
You sir are part of the problem.
Always leave at least a penny, so it's clear that you did it on purpose.
posted by mosch at 5:11 PM on July 25, 2005
These are always interesting threads. For the most part I've learned not to comment much, as many people have a strange, if I may say so, resentment to waitrons. It's fruitless to point out how hard these people work, or that their lives are not spent dropping out of art schools and trying to produce a novel/painting or whatever. Even if they are waiting tables to pay for some other aspect of their lives, what is wrong with working to live rather than living to work? People need someone to bitch about so they bitch about the service. So be it.
That is not to say that I support the linked website. Returning pettyness for pettyness is still petty. In my experience, for every cheap tipper there are two that treat the server with dignity. It doesn't do anyone any good to focus on the one sub-par tip when they are (should be) doing 30+ covers a night. (Also, once I started doing fine dining I saw very little cheap tipping.)
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:12 PM on July 25, 2005
That is not to say that I support the linked website. Returning pettyness for pettyness is still petty. In my experience, for every cheap tipper there are two that treat the server with dignity. It doesn't do anyone any good to focus on the one sub-par tip when they are (should be) doing 30+ covers a night. (Also, once I started doing fine dining I saw very little cheap tipping.)
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:12 PM on July 25, 2005
This thing is ridiculus.
Citizen Premier is right. This database is seriously crying out for automation -- linked directly to the CC companies. Input everything, and let computers automatically assign a patron's status.
posted by boo_radley at 5:19 PM on July 25, 2005
Citizen Premier is right. This database is seriously crying out for automation -- linked directly to the CC companies. Input everything, and let computers automatically assign a patron's status.
posted by boo_radley at 5:19 PM on July 25, 2005
I expected more people to support tipping a flat 15-20% no matter what from the MeFi crowd. As some have pointed out, in most of America waiters and waitresses don't even earn close to minimum wage before tips. Why should they have to be judged on an extra level before earning the same pay as other people in low-end jobs?
It's like giving more coin to a homeless person who does card tricks than to someone sleeping on the sidewalk. They're both homeless, they both need the money-- how then do you become the arbiter of who deserves more?
posted by themadjuggler at 5:20 PM on July 25, 2005
It's like giving more coin to a homeless person who does card tricks than to someone sleeping on the sidewalk. They're both homeless, they both need the money-- how then do you become the arbiter of who deserves more?
posted by themadjuggler at 5:20 PM on July 25, 2005
If you tip less than 'the minimum' be that 10% or whatever, you are literally taking the food off these people's plates.
No you're not, unless by "literally," you mean "figuratively" (which is quite a dirty trick that literally destroys my faith in someone's credibility).
Tips in the U.S. are not taxed at 17%, btw. They're taxed just like any other personal income. The rate depends on your adjusted net income. [More] If folks like ScottMorris are truly living "under the poverty line," I'd bet they're paying no (federal income) taxes at all, or at most paying something like 3-5% on their actual tip income. It certainly could be true, but (based on solely anecdotal evidence), I doubt it.
From my own (late '80s) and other friends' experience as waiters, the amount of tips reported to the IRS is significantly less than the actual amount. We reported what the restaurant withheld based on a rate of 10-12% percent of the server's bills. Maybe the IRS started cracking down in the '90s ...
I love waiters, btw. I sucked at the job myself, but I've played poker with servers forever. I've never tipped below 15%, except in the one case of that dollar tip I mentioned above (which was probably 7-8%).
posted by mrgrimm at 5:22 PM on July 25, 2005
No you're not, unless by "literally," you mean "figuratively" (which is quite a dirty trick that literally destroys my faith in someone's credibility).
Tips in the U.S. are not taxed at 17%, btw. They're taxed just like any other personal income. The rate depends on your adjusted net income. [More] If folks like ScottMorris are truly living "under the poverty line," I'd bet they're paying no (federal income) taxes at all, or at most paying something like 3-5% on their actual tip income. It certainly could be true, but (based on solely anecdotal evidence), I doubt it.
From my own (late '80s) and other friends' experience as waiters, the amount of tips reported to the IRS is significantly less than the actual amount. We reported what the restaurant withheld based on a rate of 10-12% percent of the server's bills. Maybe the IRS started cracking down in the '90s ...
I love waiters, btw. I sucked at the job myself, but I've played poker with servers forever. I've never tipped below 15%, except in the one case of that dollar tip I mentioned above (which was probably 7-8%).
posted by mrgrimm at 5:22 PM on July 25, 2005
The problem with the whole "tipping leads to meritocracy" argument is that it presupposes that the tipper is an impartial judge of the merit of the service. I just don't think this is so. Let's say suddenly people could grab all the food they wanted at the grocery store, then pay the cashier whatever they thought the food was worth. You'd find that people who had been happy to pay retail price for Coors Light now decide that Newcastle is worth a quarter a bottle, tops. People would stuff their carts with they Hot Pockets they'd been buying for years, then pass the cashier a fiver, grumbling about how they don't taste all that good. What are the chances that there would be enough truly objective people to make up for all the self-serving folks out there?
I'll believe the people singing the praises of the tipping system when they personally volunteer to let their bosses or clients pay them whatever they feel like from now on, and promise never to complain about it.
As for the post, grabbing people's credit card info? That's screwed up, man.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 5:33 PM on July 25, 2005
I'll believe the people singing the praises of the tipping system when they personally volunteer to let their bosses or clients pay them whatever they feel like from now on, and promise never to complain about it.
As for the post, grabbing people's credit card info? That's screwed up, man.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 5:33 PM on July 25, 2005
Maybe the IRS started cracking down in the '90s ..
Actually, they did. The IRS started cracking down on lower wage earners who under reported because they figured out they got a better rate of return from people who could'nt afford accountants and lawyers, but that's another story.
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Actually, they did. The IRS started cracking down on lower wage earners who under reported because they figured out they got a better rate of return from people who could'nt afford accountants and lawyers, but that's another story.
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Sjoberg: The Hot Pocket and Newcastle people would probably end up on the Shitty Grocery-Store-Looter Database.
posted by mullacc at 5:38 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by mullacc at 5:38 PM on July 25, 2005
This database is pointless. What can it do? Name and shame? I don't see anyone who's opinion matters to me perusing it.
Give service staff fore-warning that a low tip was left once (for service of unknown quality) by a person they are currently serving? What are they going to do? Spit in the burger and give shitty service? Then they'll just earn themselves a shitty tip, and waste even more valuable time updating the entry, then wonder at the end of the week why they're having trouble making ends meet despite always being so rushed.
This is so stupid. If you live in a country with a retarded tipping custom, like the US, then everyone loses, the waitstaff most of all, however, the only "comeback" is to not waste much time on people they know from experience won't tip. A database is no help there. Giving a new customer shitty service because they're in a database is cutting off your nose to spite your face, it's moronic. What a juvenile waste of time.
posted by -harlequin- at 5:44 PM on July 25, 2005
Give service staff fore-warning that a low tip was left once (for service of unknown quality) by a person they are currently serving? What are they going to do? Spit in the burger and give shitty service? Then they'll just earn themselves a shitty tip, and waste even more valuable time updating the entry, then wonder at the end of the week why they're having trouble making ends meet despite always being so rushed.
This is so stupid. If you live in a country with a retarded tipping custom, like the US, then everyone loses, the waitstaff most of all, however, the only "comeback" is to not waste much time on people they know from experience won't tip. A database is no help there. Giving a new customer shitty service because they're in a database is cutting off your nose to spite your face, it's moronic. What a juvenile waste of time.
posted by -harlequin- at 5:44 PM on July 25, 2005
I tip well because I believe instant karma's gonna get me if I don't.
posted by jscalzi at 5:46 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by jscalzi at 5:46 PM on July 25, 2005
What's so wrong about rewarding those who care about doing a good job and put in the effort to do so?
Nothing's wrong with that. The problem is that most people don't think this way.
From my experience as a waiter, I learned fairly quickly that people will tip whatever they usually tip, no matter if the service was normal or exceptional. If the service was poor, they'll tip nothing. Waiters are very, very rarely rewarded for their efforts.
The other problem is that "their efforts" means different things to someone on the other side of the table. You could be friendly as hell, just to find out that your patron prefers the "efficient, no smiles, just-do-the-job" kind of service. You could try doing the "just-do-the-job" service, only to find that your patron wants big, cheesy grins and "Hi-my-name-is-Civil-Disobedient!" Like I said, people will tip whatever they're used to tipping.
More often than not, patrons have absolutely no idea what good service means. When you go into a restaurant that's jam-packed, just getting your food on time means excellent service, but you'll never see the cajoling and pleading needed to get a cook to have your dishes prepared promptly.
When you're slammed, you can be working anywhere from 6-10 tables at a time. All those people expect you to be on their beckon call. All expect their food ten seconds after they order it. All will stagger their orders (first drinks, then run back again, then apps, run back again, then dinner, run back again, another drink, run back again, "how's your food", run back again, clear plates, run back again, desert, run back again, final check, run back again, hand over credit card slip, run back again). For six to ten tables. You forget one thing and there goes your tip. Don't have fresh bread on the table (even though that's the busboy's job?) no tip. You need an extra fork because you're an idiot and don't know how to hold utensils, but it takes a whole minute of waiting before you get another? No tip.
Welcome to the hateful world of waiting. Everyone wants you: the cooks need you to get your order up, the patrons need extra napkins, new patrons have just sat down and want to order drinks, your manager wants you to move a couple of slow-pokes so he can maximize profits, the bartender has your drinks ready for another table...
...but the second you get to wherever it is you're needed (everywhere), all of a sudden time grinds to a halt. "Well, I'll have... uh... honey, what are you having? What did we have last time we went out? No, no, wasn't it the grouper? Oh, you're right, it was the haddock. I'll have... uh... say, what kind of sauce does the Chicken Saltinboca have on it? Oh yeah? What's that mean? Is it good? Ok, well, I'll have... uh... maybe you should take my wife's order first..." (repeat for wife)
Meanwhile, your other 9 tables are pissed. No tip.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Nothing's wrong with that. The problem is that most people don't think this way.
From my experience as a waiter, I learned fairly quickly that people will tip whatever they usually tip, no matter if the service was normal or exceptional. If the service was poor, they'll tip nothing. Waiters are very, very rarely rewarded for their efforts.
The other problem is that "their efforts" means different things to someone on the other side of the table. You could be friendly as hell, just to find out that your patron prefers the "efficient, no smiles, just-do-the-job" kind of service. You could try doing the "just-do-the-job" service, only to find that your patron wants big, cheesy grins and "Hi-my-name-is-Civil-Disobedient!" Like I said, people will tip whatever they're used to tipping.
More often than not, patrons have absolutely no idea what good service means. When you go into a restaurant that's jam-packed, just getting your food on time means excellent service, but you'll never see the cajoling and pleading needed to get a cook to have your dishes prepared promptly.
When you're slammed, you can be working anywhere from 6-10 tables at a time. All those people expect you to be on their beckon call. All expect their food ten seconds after they order it. All will stagger their orders (first drinks, then run back again, then apps, run back again, then dinner, run back again, another drink, run back again, "how's your food", run back again, clear plates, run back again, desert, run back again, final check, run back again, hand over credit card slip, run back again). For six to ten tables. You forget one thing and there goes your tip. Don't have fresh bread on the table (even though that's the busboy's job?) no tip. You need an extra fork because you're an idiot and don't know how to hold utensils, but it takes a whole minute of waiting before you get another? No tip.
Welcome to the hateful world of waiting. Everyone wants you: the cooks need you to get your order up, the patrons need extra napkins, new patrons have just sat down and want to order drinks, your manager wants you to move a couple of slow-pokes so he can maximize profits, the bartender has your drinks ready for another table...
...but the second you get to wherever it is you're needed (everywhere), all of a sudden time grinds to a halt. "Well, I'll have... uh... honey, what are you having? What did we have last time we went out? No, no, wasn't it the grouper? Oh, you're right, it was the haddock. I'll have... uh... say, what kind of sauce does the Chicken Saltinboca have on it? Oh yeah? What's that mean? Is it good? Ok, well, I'll have... uh... maybe you should take my wife's order first..." (repeat for wife)
Meanwhile, your other 9 tables are pissed. No tip.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:49 PM on July 25, 2005
Ha! C_D, I feel your pain there. Unfortunately, part of the job is to not complain about it to non-industry types. It's kind of like being a fucked up secret society of daily pain. I don't mean that to criticize you, but in my experience when I shared my feelings I got rewarded by a bunch of people who either told me how to do my job, or told me to get another one.
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:57 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by elwoodwiles at 5:57 PM on July 25, 2005
I usually tip 20%, I will go higher or lower depending on service though. I've very rarely not given a tip at all (I can think of two occasions). Make sure my water glass is full. If I've obviously just taken a bite of food don't ask me any fucking questions because you'll make me feel like an ass for making you wait while I chew and swallow.
One pet peeve of mine is that waiters seem to avoid giving proper change. I mean it tallies up, but give me a 10 a 5 and some singles for change rather than a 20. That way I don't have to ask for change for your tip. I bet that a lot of people will just not tip because they can't leave one that isn't either an insult or exorbitant.
posted by substrate at 6:02 PM on July 25, 2005
One pet peeve of mine is that waiters seem to avoid giving proper change. I mean it tallies up, but give me a 10 a 5 and some singles for change rather than a 20. That way I don't have to ask for change for your tip. I bet that a lot of people will just not tip because they can't leave one that isn't either an insult or exorbitant.
posted by substrate at 6:02 PM on July 25, 2005
Howard Stern: The manager personally came up to him and told him that his bill was taken care of. Apparently this a-hole thought the tip was included in that as well, because I didnt see a single penny from this tightwad jew bastard.
Sorry, my heart's not bleeding for you pal.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:09 PM on July 25, 2005
Sorry, my heart's not bleeding for you pal.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:09 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm not sure about reporting this to the restaurants listed in my area (it probably doesn't warrant somebody getting in trouble), but I'm certainly not going to patronize the ones I've found so far: Boulevard (like I could afford it, and like I eat meat); the Fuck Barn (I admit I haven't heard of this one); and Scala's, which I like, but can't afford (unless I know a working bartender). Huh. not much.
I've also met this guy, and I could certainly believe he stiffed her, but I don't trust her story. He's not a cheap guy (imho), and he has way more money than he needs to be scamming free meals. Sounds like an ex-burner with a grudge.
And why does Andrew Paik sound familiar?
posted by mrgrimm at 6:14 PM on July 25, 2005
I've also met this guy, and I could certainly believe he stiffed her, but I don't trust her story. He's not a cheap guy (imho), and he has way more money than he needs to be scamming free meals. Sounds like an ex-burner with a grudge.
And why does Andrew Paik sound familiar?
posted by mrgrimm at 6:14 PM on July 25, 2005
I got rewarded by a bunch of people who either told me how to do my job, or told me to get another one
Too true.
One pet peeve of mine is that waiters seem to avoid giving proper change. I mean it tallies up, but give me a 10 a 5 and some singles for change rather than a 20.
One of two possibilities: 1. The waiter is a newbie dumbass. 2. The waiter is a newbie dumbass optimist and thinks you'll give him the twenty.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:19 PM on July 25, 2005
Too true.
One pet peeve of mine is that waiters seem to avoid giving proper change. I mean it tallies up, but give me a 10 a 5 and some singles for change rather than a 20.
One of two possibilities: 1. The waiter is a newbie dumbass. 2. The waiter is a newbie dumbass optimist and thinks you'll give him the twenty.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:19 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm so sick of whining waiters I could vomit all over the white table cloth.
It's not the diner's fault, its the stupid restaurant's fault for passing off the waiter's hourly wage onto the customer.
It's a bad system, and I always tip 20%.
At the same time, a lot of waiters are waiters because they aren't mentally capable of dealing with a 9-5, they like to party all the time, possibly emotionally unbalanced, etc. Yet some are also very good and are professional waiters.
understanding the variety of types, I still cannot stand the incessant whining of waiters. PLEASE GET ANOTHER JOB thanks.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:23 PM on July 25, 2005
It's not the diner's fault, its the stupid restaurant's fault for passing off the waiter's hourly wage onto the customer.
It's a bad system, and I always tip 20%.
At the same time, a lot of waiters are waiters because they aren't mentally capable of dealing with a 9-5, they like to party all the time, possibly emotionally unbalanced, etc. Yet some are also very good and are professional waiters.
understanding the variety of types, I still cannot stand the incessant whining of waiters. PLEASE GET ANOTHER JOB thanks.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:23 PM on July 25, 2005
To those who say, "there's no reason not to tip well",
Here's two situations,
First one, at Mac Grill, We go in, not too hungry, want kinda a quick dinner then leave. Watier comes out, asks if we want drinks, I order water, gf orders Sprite. Immediatly waiter looks pissed and leaves.
Why did I order water? Because I hate drinking pure sugar during dinner, I didn't feel like tea, and I was driving, so no liquor.
Server comes back in 5 minutes, takes our order, then leaves. We don't see him till 20 mintues after the busser cleans our table. At first i was glad he didn't do the whole 'write the name on the table with crayon s**t', but the no 'hows dinner' question, 'do you want a refill?', 'any desert?' was a bit too much.
So in the end him getting pissy about his extra 30 cents he would have got as a tip on my drink, cost him getting a 5% tip.
2nd situation, some restaurant in Colgate, NY, went with grandfather (who gradded from there) for lunch. One other table, 2 visable bus boys, 2 visable servers.
From sit down to order: 20 minutes.
Food, 4 sandwiches.
Order to food: 1 hour.
Finish food to check: 1 hour.
My stupid (and dearly departed) grandfather, gives him his visa card.
Check to visa slip: 1 hour
Tip: 0
Don't tell me they deserved more.
posted by jboy55 at 6:23 PM on July 25, 2005
Here's two situations,
First one, at Mac Grill, We go in, not too hungry, want kinda a quick dinner then leave. Watier comes out, asks if we want drinks, I order water, gf orders Sprite. Immediatly waiter looks pissed and leaves.
Why did I order water? Because I hate drinking pure sugar during dinner, I didn't feel like tea, and I was driving, so no liquor.
Server comes back in 5 minutes, takes our order, then leaves. We don't see him till 20 mintues after the busser cleans our table. At first i was glad he didn't do the whole 'write the name on the table with crayon s**t', but the no 'hows dinner' question, 'do you want a refill?', 'any desert?' was a bit too much.
So in the end him getting pissy about his extra 30 cents he would have got as a tip on my drink, cost him getting a 5% tip.
2nd situation, some restaurant in Colgate, NY, went with grandfather (who gradded from there) for lunch. One other table, 2 visable bus boys, 2 visable servers.
From sit down to order: 20 minutes.
Food, 4 sandwiches.
Order to food: 1 hour.
Finish food to check: 1 hour.
My stupid (and dearly departed) grandfather, gives him his visa card.
Check to visa slip: 1 hour
Tip: 0
Don't tell me they deserved more.
posted by jboy55 at 6:23 PM on July 25, 2005
It's like giving more coin to a homeless person who does card tricks than to someone sleeping on the sidewalk. They're both homeless, they both need the money-- how then do you become the arbiter of who deserves more?
The one who's doing the card tricks is at least hustling and putting out some effort, so he'll get my money first. That may be right or it may be wrong, but you asked where it comes from.
Also, to embroider cunning_linguist's comment on Howard Stern: onece me and the mrs. were having pastry and espresso at Ferrara's in Little Italy. A waiter had an attack of vertigo and spilled his tray. The mrs. got soaked. The lady next to us caught a few drops and complained loudly about how her outfit was ruined. (It was a pink jumpsuit, it wasn't killed so much as it was put out of it's misery). They got their meal free. Later, the manager said that our meal was free, too. We still left five bucks for our waiter (a different one from the spiller).
posted by jonmc at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2005
The one who's doing the card tricks is at least hustling and putting out some effort, so he'll get my money first. That may be right or it may be wrong, but you asked where it comes from.
Also, to embroider cunning_linguist's comment on Howard Stern: onece me and the mrs. were having pastry and espresso at Ferrara's in Little Italy. A waiter had an attack of vertigo and spilled his tray. The mrs. got soaked. The lady next to us caught a few drops and complained loudly about how her outfit was ruined. (It was a pink jumpsuit, it wasn't killed so much as it was put out of it's misery). They got their meal free. Later, the manager said that our meal was free, too. We still left five bucks for our waiter (a different one from the spiller).
posted by jonmc at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2005
Unfortunately, part of the job is to not complain about it to non-industry types. It's kind of like being a fucked up secret society of daily pain.
Only in places with these dumb tipping cultures. Places where tipping is not done, it's still an intense job, but you always get paid a proper wage for your work, you know at the start of the week how much you'll earn, instead of at the end of it, you don't have the constant frustration of constantly losing potential money for reasons entirely outside your control, or have to work in an environment dragged down by that kind of frustration/resent.
Well ok, maybe you get frustrated co-workers anyway, but at least it wouldn't be because of all the stupid repercussions of tipping.
If your wage is party tips, on the other hand, welcome to the secret society of daily pain :-(
posted by -harlequin- at 6:43 PM on July 25, 2005
Only in places with these dumb tipping cultures. Places where tipping is not done, it's still an intense job, but you always get paid a proper wage for your work, you know at the start of the week how much you'll earn, instead of at the end of it, you don't have the constant frustration of constantly losing potential money for reasons entirely outside your control, or have to work in an environment dragged down by that kind of frustration/resent.
Well ok, maybe you get frustrated co-workers anyway, but at least it wouldn't be because of all the stupid repercussions of tipping.
If your wage is party tips, on the other hand, welcome to the secret society of daily pain :-(
posted by -harlequin- at 6:43 PM on July 25, 2005
When all is said and done, it's still cool to tip lap dancers, right?
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on July 25, 2005
party=partly. Oops
posted by -harlequin- at 6:46 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by -harlequin- at 6:46 PM on July 25, 2005
Oh, and what about that waiter from a certain trendy restaurant on the Bowery, that used my credit card number for anyone that paid cash, stole the other diners' cash and ( I was told ) used the money for his drug habit ? His name was Brian.
posted by R. Mutt at 6:46 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by R. Mutt at 6:46 PM on July 25, 2005
From sit down to order: 20 minutes.
Food, 4 sandwiches.
Order to food: 1 hour.
Finish food to check: 1 hour.
My stupid (and dearly departed) grandfather, gives him his visa card.
Check to visa slip: 1 hour
Tip: 0
not realizing you're a dumbass for spending 3 hours and 20 minutes to eat some sandwiches? priceless.
posted by Hat Maui at 7:00 PM on July 25, 2005
Food, 4 sandwiches.
Order to food: 1 hour.
Finish food to check: 1 hour.
My stupid (and dearly departed) grandfather, gives him his visa card.
Check to visa slip: 1 hour
Tip: 0
not realizing you're a dumbass for spending 3 hours and 20 minutes to eat some sandwiches? priceless.
posted by Hat Maui at 7:00 PM on July 25, 2005
What I don't like about the tip system is people waiting to pass judgement rather than trying to make the best of a meal. Even a great waiter has a bad night, as do many good restaurants. If you're nice, they'll usually make it right.
Part of getting good service is being assertive and clear without being an asshole. When I don't like my food, I make it clear without whinning. If your food is late, ask why. If it's bad, say something politely, you make get it taken off your bill, or have something else. You can flad down a waiter politely, and You won't leave restaurants pissed of, and you'll probably have more of a reason to leave a good tip.
Many shitty tippers are just passive agressive whiners. Before you leave a crappy tip, ask yourself if you gave your waiter a chance to make it better.
That having been said, I was about the worst waiter ever, and if I hadn't been young and flirty, and my restaurant wasn't gay, I would have starved.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 7:01 PM on July 25, 2005
Part of getting good service is being assertive and clear without being an asshole. When I don't like my food, I make it clear without whinning. If your food is late, ask why. If it's bad, say something politely, you make get it taken off your bill, or have something else. You can flad down a waiter politely, and You won't leave restaurants pissed of, and you'll probably have more of a reason to leave a good tip.
Many shitty tippers are just passive agressive whiners. Before you leave a crappy tip, ask yourself if you gave your waiter a chance to make it better.
That having been said, I was about the worst waiter ever, and if I hadn't been young and flirty, and my restaurant wasn't gay, I would have starved.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 7:01 PM on July 25, 2005
jboy55: You sat in your chair for a motherfucking hour waiting for the waiter to run the credit card? Please tell me you were up at the cash register every 15 minutes asking what the hell was going on. Please - or it's your fault.
On preview: What Hat Maui said.
posted by mullacc at 7:03 PM on July 25, 2005
On preview: What Hat Maui said.
posted by mullacc at 7:03 PM on July 25, 2005
jonmc said: "The [homeless person] who's doing the card tricks is at least hustling and putting out some effort, so he'll get my money first."
In a lot of cities they call that "aggressive panhandling" and the cops'll roust 'em; it scares the bejesus out of the humongous retarded tourists from tiny towns in Iowa. What they want the bums to do is look picturesque while quietly holding kitschy begging signs. You know, like "Nam Vet proud of sacrifice. Drinks only American beer. God bless!", surrounded by half-assed drawings of daisies.
(I just thought of a panhandling sign they won't like: "If I'm too drunk to sit up I can't rape your daughter so give generously." quonsar can use that gratis, as long as we see a jpeg.)
Anyway. About waitpeople. I don't always feed the tip jars at places where you stand in line at a counter, but then they usually get at least minimum wage; someone who brings food to my table is paid as little as $2 an hour (and gets taxed on that $2 as well as what the IRS thinks s/he must have made in tips), so s/he'd have to really fuck up to get less than a %15 tip out of me. That's the way it is at real sit-down restaurants: if you don't want to tip you don't have to be waited on, go stand in line at a vending machine. So naturally you won't find me or anybody I willingly associate with in that shitty tipper database.
posted by davy at 7:08 PM on July 25, 2005
In a lot of cities they call that "aggressive panhandling" and the cops'll roust 'em; it scares the bejesus out of the humongous retarded tourists from tiny towns in Iowa. What they want the bums to do is look picturesque while quietly holding kitschy begging signs. You know, like "Nam Vet proud of sacrifice. Drinks only American beer. God bless!", surrounded by half-assed drawings of daisies.
(I just thought of a panhandling sign they won't like: "If I'm too drunk to sit up I can't rape your daughter so give generously." quonsar can use that gratis, as long as we see a jpeg.)
Anyway. About waitpeople. I don't always feed the tip jars at places where you stand in line at a counter, but then they usually get at least minimum wage; someone who brings food to my table is paid as little as $2 an hour (and gets taxed on that $2 as well as what the IRS thinks s/he must have made in tips), so s/he'd have to really fuck up to get less than a %15 tip out of me. That's the way it is at real sit-down restaurants: if you don't want to tip you don't have to be waited on, go stand in line at a vending machine. So naturally you won't find me or anybody I willingly associate with in that shitty tipper database.
posted by davy at 7:08 PM on July 25, 2005
If there was a "Good Patron Database," where good tippers could find themselves rewarded at other establishments, I would tip better to get on it. But then again, this is the sort of thing I give two shakes about.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:14 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:14 PM on July 25, 2005
But, seriously, as harsh as it may sound, what is the response to the get another job statement? Why should I be responsible for your job choice, and why should I be responsible for the fact that the restaurant won't pay you what it should?
I tip 20-25% but consider the implication that I have to do this pretty rude and baseless.
If you incessantly complain about the stinginess of customers, well, get another job. Take some personal responsibility for your situation.
posted by xmutex at 7:15 PM on July 25, 2005
I tip 20-25% but consider the implication that I have to do this pretty rude and baseless.
If you incessantly complain about the stinginess of customers, well, get another job. Take some personal responsibility for your situation.
posted by xmutex at 7:15 PM on July 25, 2005
Okay, so here's a proposition for all you cheapskates out there who think it's your responsibility to dictate a server's income: leave a normal tip for shitty service and then file a complaint with the management. THAT WAY, instead of making the server in question angry and thereby affecting their work performance (in most cases) you actually do something about the problem without fucking with the salary their employer doesn't give them.
Serving is not a freelance job; these people are hired to work a certain number of hours and it usually works out that they get paid a fairly steady amount for those hours at any given amount of patronage of the restaurant. It's not really your responsibility to mess with that, despite what the industry would have you believe.
I have significantly less pity for for servers making minimum wage without tips, because at least they're guaranteed something; but that's not the case in the majority of places I've seen.
posted by invitapriore at 7:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Serving is not a freelance job; these people are hired to work a certain number of hours and it usually works out that they get paid a fairly steady amount for those hours at any given amount of patronage of the restaurant. It's not really your responsibility to mess with that, despite what the industry would have you believe.
I have significantly less pity for for servers making minimum wage without tips, because at least they're guaranteed something; but that's not the case in the majority of places I've seen.
posted by invitapriore at 7:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Hey robo, a quick derail: what ARE the duties and privileges associated with being a regular in a bar? I never could afford to drink in bars much so I don't know.
(The difference between eating in restaurants and drinking in bars is I can't cook worth diddley, but I can pour my own Old Crow -- and at home I don't have to put up with twang pop on the jukebox. And yes, I have just admitted to drinking cheap whiskey alone, again.)
posted by davy at 7:49 PM on July 25, 2005
(The difference between eating in restaurants and drinking in bars is I can't cook worth diddley, but I can pour my own Old Crow -- and at home I don't have to put up with twang pop on the jukebox. And yes, I have just admitted to drinking cheap whiskey alone, again.)
posted by davy at 7:49 PM on July 25, 2005
We were stiffed pretty equally, no matter how rich or poor the neighbourhood. The nice houses up the side of Burnaby Mountain were just as likely to give exact change as the welfare-level apartments along Broadway.
I used to deliver pizza too, and my experience was much different. The people in the poor neighborhoods tipped better than those in the rich people the vast majority of the time. The absolute best tips were to be found in trailer parks. Seriously. Poor people know what a tip means.
posted by bingo at 7:56 PM on July 25, 2005
I used to deliver pizza too, and my experience was much different. The people in the poor neighborhoods tipped better than those in the rich people the vast majority of the time. The absolute best tips were to be found in trailer parks. Seriously. Poor people know what a tip means.
posted by bingo at 7:56 PM on July 25, 2005
Er, the rich neighborhoods, not the rich people. You know.
posted by bingo at 7:57 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by bingo at 7:57 PM on July 25, 2005
invitapriore: Why am I responsible for the server's wages? That doesn't seem to make any sense to me. No one's responsible for my wages except myself and the company which employs me.
posted by xmutex at 8:11 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by xmutex at 8:11 PM on July 25, 2005
God, this thread (and the others) depresses me. You learn a lot of bad things about people's characters.
I waited tables at nice and very nice restaurants. Although as you move up the price scale you see less women waiting tables, there's still a lot waiting tables at the nicer restaurants. And, of course, women are almost exclusive as you go down the price scale. The majority of these women I worked with (at various restaurants over five years) were single mothers. Who had to find and pay someone to babysit while they worked till midnight. They had no health insurance for they or their children. No other benefits, and little chance of any career to come out of the time they spent waiting tables. Sure, some are college students. Most are not.
I always tip at least 20% for this, if for no other, reason.
Some of you need an emergency tranfusion of generosity of spirit. I mean, Christ, being offended that some poor schlub who works at Arby's is collecting nickels and dimes in a jar? The economic arrangement of waiting tables and tips may be irrational and unfair. The economic arrangement of working fast food for minimum wage may be unfair. Our whole fucking society may be unfair. But that this unfairness inconveniences you, offends your sensibilities, and then to express that frustration against some poor service worker?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:31 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
I waited tables at nice and very nice restaurants. Although as you move up the price scale you see less women waiting tables, there's still a lot waiting tables at the nicer restaurants. And, of course, women are almost exclusive as you go down the price scale. The majority of these women I worked with (at various restaurants over five years) were single mothers. Who had to find and pay someone to babysit while they worked till midnight. They had no health insurance for they or their children. No other benefits, and little chance of any career to come out of the time they spent waiting tables. Sure, some are college students. Most are not.
I always tip at least 20% for this, if for no other, reason.
Some of you need an emergency tranfusion of generosity of spirit. I mean, Christ, being offended that some poor schlub who works at Arby's is collecting nickels and dimes in a jar? The economic arrangement of waiting tables and tips may be irrational and unfair. The economic arrangement of working fast food for minimum wage may be unfair. Our whole fucking society may be unfair. But that this unfairness inconveniences you, offends your sensibilities, and then to express that frustration against some poor service worker?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:31 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
You're responsible for the server's wages mostly because that's the way the industry has organized itself. It's unfortunate that the salaries of all the workers at a given establishment aren't reflected in what they charge the customer outright, but for some reason, that's how it is.
I'm not saying it's not within your rights to not tip or not tip well, but it's not really the right way of dealing with things. Just because the restaurant industry is one of the few places where you are free to, with a segment of the bill, to pay based on your personal valuation of a service, rather than a set rate dictated by the establishment you're in, doesn't necessarily make doing so fair. You don't pay less for food that you find inadequate; you complain about the cooking.
posted by invitapriore at 8:35 PM on July 25, 2005
I'm not saying it's not within your rights to not tip or not tip well, but it's not really the right way of dealing with things. Just because the restaurant industry is one of the few places where you are free to, with a segment of the bill, to pay based on your personal valuation of a service, rather than a set rate dictated by the establishment you're in, doesn't necessarily make doing so fair. You don't pay less for food that you find inadequate; you complain about the cooking.
posted by invitapriore at 8:35 PM on July 25, 2005
Sorry, my above response was directed at xmutex, but I didn't specify.
posted by invitapriore at 8:36 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by invitapriore at 8:36 PM on July 25, 2005
Civil_D, if we're just talking here about people who can't empathize enough to see when a restaurant is busy and self-centred enough to think they're the only customers that matter, then this would be a short thread. Fact is, we've all had shitty service for no good reason and we know what it is when we see it -- standing around chatting while ignoring customers, the empty restaurant but one coffee refill per hour (if you stay that long), etc, etc, etc.
20% "no matter the service" is bullshit, period. Efficient and at least reasonably pleasant service is the output. No other job provides the cushion between you and your employer that tipping provides, such that some huge percentage of people who would complain about your shitty service, and eventually get you fired, just leave you shitty tips instead and your boss is none the wiser.
What rankles about this is the assumption. I walk past Amnesty International canvassers last week and get sneered at, despite: a) I am a paying member, and b) I don't always have time to stop and chat - and in this city during the summer they're out every single week (and I do chat most times). But I'm going to have to stop talking to canvassers completely or their attitude will sour me to any cause they may espouse. Do most waiters deserve tips? Yes. Should I ignore the asshole canvassers and think only about their cause? Yes. But they aren't doing themselves any favours because I order water or continue by when I'm obviously in a hurry.
/ex-waiter, ex-canvasser screed.
posted by dreamsign at 8:39 PM on July 25, 2005
20% "no matter the service" is bullshit, period. Efficient and at least reasonably pleasant service is the output. No other job provides the cushion between you and your employer that tipping provides, such that some huge percentage of people who would complain about your shitty service, and eventually get you fired, just leave you shitty tips instead and your boss is none the wiser.
What rankles about this is the assumption. I walk past Amnesty International canvassers last week and get sneered at, despite: a) I am a paying member, and b) I don't always have time to stop and chat - and in this city during the summer they're out every single week (and I do chat most times). But I'm going to have to stop talking to canvassers completely or their attitude will sour me to any cause they may espouse. Do most waiters deserve tips? Yes. Should I ignore the asshole canvassers and think only about their cause? Yes. But they aren't doing themselves any favours because I order water or continue by when I'm obviously in a hurry.
/ex-waiter, ex-canvasser screed.
posted by dreamsign at 8:39 PM on July 25, 2005
Hah, here in Australia we don't tip as a rule - we have labour laws that required that waitresses get paid reasonable wages. The only time I've ever given above $5 has been a stripper.
You generally see tip jars at coffee shops and restaraunts. Most of these tip jars have 10-15$ 'bait' put in them, and might attract $10 worth of tips during the day. Mostly in small change that people don't want to keep.
To us, tipping is a strange foreign custom.
posted by Jerub at 8:42 PM on July 25, 2005
You generally see tip jars at coffee shops and restaraunts. Most of these tip jars have 10-15$ 'bait' put in them, and might attract $10 worth of tips during the day. Mostly in small change that people don't want to keep.
To us, tipping is a strange foreign custom.
posted by Jerub at 8:42 PM on July 25, 2005
addendum: it seems that the U.S. and other countries are in very different situations regarding baseline pay, so we're almost having parallel conversations here. I would have a different view about tipping if my server was payed $2 an hour. (then it would just be a matter of not going to restaurants with shitty servers, though how this would fail to punish the servers, I don't know)
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on July 25, 2005
two things ... i wonder how many of these waitrons cheat the bussers on their share of the tips ... from my experience, many do
there's also something to be said for paying cash ... they don't have your name ...
posted by pyramid termite at 8:47 PM on July 25, 2005
there's also something to be said for paying cash ... they don't have your name ...
posted by pyramid termite at 8:47 PM on July 25, 2005
I've actually broken up with two "men" because they were shitty to waitstaff. It disgusts me how some people look at dining out as an audition for the server. They notice every little thing -- "Ooo, guess we don't get any water without asking, take two dollars off. Oops, look at that, forgot to bring my extra side of mustard for my french fries because I'm insane and like it that way... heh, heh, that's another dollar off." I've never worked as a waitress, because if I did, there'd be a lot of jackballs ingesting arsenic.
posted by Kloryne at 8:57 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by Kloryne at 8:57 PM on July 25, 2005
Poor people know what a tip means.
Literally, bingo.
And Ethereal Bligh, nicely said.
20% "no matter the service" is bullshit, period.
I'm not disagreeing with you. 20% is a lot, and if the service amounts to chatting with the bartender for half an hour when you've only got a single table, well, don't expect any gratuity from the other side of the table. But for "regular" service, 15% always. For "great" service, 20% is a good starting point.
Finally, just thought I'd mention that when I was working there, waiters in the North End (Boston) didn't get salaries. As in, nothing. Your tips are it.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:11 PM on July 25, 2005
Literally, bingo.
And Ethereal Bligh, nicely said.
20% "no matter the service" is bullshit, period.
I'm not disagreeing with you. 20% is a lot, and if the service amounts to chatting with the bartender for half an hour when you've only got a single table, well, don't expect any gratuity from the other side of the table. But for "regular" service, 15% always. For "great" service, 20% is a good starting point.
Finally, just thought I'd mention that when I was working there, waiters in the North End (Boston) didn't get salaries. As in, nothing. Your tips are it.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:11 PM on July 25, 2005
Oh EB's just some goddamned wellspring of compassion. Do you go around showering money on everyone then?
I found you description of our hypothetical waitress a little amusing as well. I mean.. a single mother! with no benefits! who had to find a babysitter! and who only has one leg! and is blind! and who doesn't have a spleen! omg you barbarians!
posted by xmutex at 9:22 PM on July 25, 2005
I found you description of our hypothetical waitress a little amusing as well. I mean.. a single mother! with no benefits! who had to find a babysitter! and who only has one leg! and is blind! and who doesn't have a spleen! omg you barbarians!
posted by xmutex at 9:22 PM on July 25, 2005
davy said: what ARE the duties and privileges associated with being a regular in a bar?
I live in a college town, so the bar where I'm a regular has a relatively high employee turnover rate, but as most of those employees are students at the college where I teach, I usually at least recognize them, and I think in such situations, the familiarity is what's important. I usually tip about a dollar for a $2.25 bottle of beer, 20 percent if I'm running a tab, and 20 percent when the grill is open and I buy food. The good part, though, is that if I'm a few bucks short (as far as tipping goes), the staff usually knows I'm good for it next time I come in.
And Etherial Bligh: Rock the fuck on, yo.
posted by hifiparasol at 9:37 PM on July 25, 2005
I live in a college town, so the bar where I'm a regular has a relatively high employee turnover rate, but as most of those employees are students at the college where I teach, I usually at least recognize them, and I think in such situations, the familiarity is what's important. I usually tip about a dollar for a $2.25 bottle of beer, 20 percent if I'm running a tab, and 20 percent when the grill is open and I buy food. The good part, though, is that if I'm a few bucks short (as far as tipping goes), the staff usually knows I'm good for it next time I come in.
And Etherial Bligh: Rock the fuck on, yo.
posted by hifiparasol at 9:37 PM on July 25, 2005
Here's an idea: why don't we have the waitstaff's income come from their employers? Why do restaurants get to skip out on paying these particular employees? If any amount of tipping is mandatory or seen as mandatory (that is, there are retributions for not doing it), then it's not really a tip, is it?
I hear this employer-actually-being-paid-by-employee thing works in many industries throughout the world.
Also, I have a big problem with people lifting information from credit cards and publishing on the Internet. In fact, I'm kind of surprised that so few people in the US do have a problem with it. I guess not having lived there since 9/11 makes a difference in one's view of privacy.
posted by Poagao at 9:38 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
I hear this employer-actually-being-paid-by-employee thing works in many industries throughout the world.
Also, I have a big problem with people lifting information from credit cards and publishing on the Internet. In fact, I'm kind of surprised that so few people in the US do have a problem with it. I guess not having lived there since 9/11 makes a difference in one's view of privacy.
posted by Poagao at 9:38 PM on July 25, 2005 [1 favorite]
I have an idea, how about we just abolish tips and we pay 20 or 30% more for food? Would it make you all happier if there was *no* reward system, no carrot to influence waitstaff?
posted by hototogisu at 9:49 PM on July 25, 2005
posted by hototogisu at 9:49 PM on July 25, 2005
OH GOD PLEASE OVERANALYSE AND ASSIGN EMOTIONAL/PSYCHOLOGICAL VALUE TO AN ARBITRARY DOLLAR AMOUNT!
The problem with tipping is that as far as non-verbal communication goes, it's a shitty medium. Each side tries to decide on a dollar figure that will appropriately convey WHAT THE FUCK? Whatever happened to simple verbal communication? "How was the service? Lousy? Shitty? Excellent? I'll be sure to tell the manager, sir. Thanks for your patronage."
I tip whatever I feel like, usually to bring the tab to an even dollar amount. The server can think whatever he/she/it wants to think, but all it really means is I hate carrying coins and singles. Sorry to shatter your fragile, ego-centered worldview. It has nothing to do with you. If I deliberately undertip, though, it's because I'm not happy. And you will know why I'm not happy, as will the manager. None of this passive-aggressive bullshit.
posted by Eideteker at 9:50 PM on July 25, 2005
The problem with tipping is that as far as non-verbal communication goes, it's a shitty medium. Each side tries to decide on a dollar figure that will appropriately convey WHAT THE FUCK? Whatever happened to simple verbal communication? "How was the service? Lousy? Shitty? Excellent? I'll be sure to tell the manager, sir. Thanks for your patronage."
I tip whatever I feel like, usually to bring the tab to an even dollar amount. The server can think whatever he/she/it wants to think, but all it really means is I hate carrying coins and singles. Sorry to shatter your fragile, ego-centered worldview. It has nothing to do with you. If I deliberately undertip, though, it's because I'm not happy. And you will know why I'm not happy, as will the manager. None of this passive-aggressive bullshit.
posted by Eideteker at 9:50 PM on July 25, 2005
"Here's an idea: why don't we have the waitstaff's income come from their employers? Why do restaurants get to skip out on paying these particular employees?"
I don't have a good answer for that one. I think they should pay their waitstaff a decent wage, so our tips (if any) would be a reward or "a little extra". This current situation sucks; the only people I knew who waited tables by choice were young, perky, flirtatious and cute; for everybody else it can be a drag of a job. (So I tend to tip middle-aged and older people best; they don't get by on their boobs.)
posted by davy at 9:54 PM on July 25, 2005
I don't have a good answer for that one. I think they should pay their waitstaff a decent wage, so our tips (if any) would be a reward or "a little extra". This current situation sucks; the only people I knew who waited tables by choice were young, perky, flirtatious and cute; for everybody else it can be a drag of a job. (So I tend to tip middle-aged and older people best; they don't get by on their boobs.)
posted by davy at 9:54 PM on July 25, 2005
hototogisu: As long as I can still add a gratuity for good service, fine by me. Don't expect it. It's extra.
I can still reward, you see. That priveledge hasn't been taken away by paying a living wage.
posted by Eideteker at 9:56 PM on July 25, 2005
I can still reward, you see. That priveledge hasn't been taken away by paying a living wage.
posted by Eideteker at 9:56 PM on July 25, 2005
I mean, as long as we're going to quibble about paying *extra*, let's just have it be *extra* up front, so we can't decide things weren't up to snuff later on. If it meant a certain crowd ate out less often, I'm sure most waitrons wouldn't mind a bit.
Eideteker: I won't stop you...
posted by hototogisu at 10:04 PM on July 25, 2005
Eideteker: I won't stop you...
posted by hototogisu at 10:04 PM on July 25, 2005
dreamsign says: 20% "no matter the service" is bullshit, period. Efficient and at least reasonably pleasant service is the output. No other job provides the cushion between you and your employer that tipping provides, such that some huge percentage of people who would complain about your shitty service, and eventually get you fired, just leave you shitty tips instead and your boss is none the wiser.
Isn't this "cushion" a bad thing? Doesn't it fly in the face of the whole "meritocracy" argument?
In any other job, people are expected to perform at a certain level, and are reviewed periodically. If they cannot perform at that level, they are fired. If they excel, they are promoted. If a customer or client has a problem with the way that someone does their job, they go through the proper channels. This is the system used in most offices, and it works pretty well.
I don't see the tipping system used in American restaurants as producing better output than the review-based system used in most offices. In fact, I see the tipping system as causing undue stress on the server and customer, without providing any benefit.
posted by afroblanca at 10:16 PM on July 25, 2005
Isn't this "cushion" a bad thing? Doesn't it fly in the face of the whole "meritocracy" argument?
In any other job, people are expected to perform at a certain level, and are reviewed periodically. If they cannot perform at that level, they are fired. If they excel, they are promoted. If a customer or client has a problem with the way that someone does their job, they go through the proper channels. This is the system used in most offices, and it works pretty well.
I don't see the tipping system used in American restaurants as producing better output than the review-based system used in most offices. In fact, I see the tipping system as causing undue stress on the server and customer, without providing any benefit.
posted by afroblanca at 10:16 PM on July 25, 2005
So many potential taglines in this one...
Metafilter: Looks like libel to me.
Metafilter: Even as a former waitress I find this site ridiculous and petty.
Metafilter: Our whole fucking society may be unfair.
Metafilter: God, this thread (and the others) depresses me.
Metafilter: The only time I've ever given above $5 has been a stripper.
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:20 PM on July 25, 2005
Metafilter: Looks like libel to me.
Metafilter: Even as a former waitress I find this site ridiculous and petty.
Metafilter: Our whole fucking society may be unfair.
Metafilter: God, this thread (and the others) depresses me.
Metafilter: The only time I've ever given above $5 has been a stripper.
posted by .kobayashi. at 10:20 PM on July 25, 2005
I've actually broken up with two "men" because they were shitty to waitstaff. It disgusts me how some people look at dining out as an audition for the server. They notice every little thing -- "Ooo, guess we don't get any water without asking, take two dollars off.
That's a tangential phenomenon, and not really central to tipping/not tipping. That's "let's treat the waiter like shit so I can prove I'm a hot shot" and, I find, has a lot more to do with whether the person has ever waited tables than tipping is related to same. And it is disgusting. I took an old "friend" to a very special Japanese restaurant -- lovely people who wouldn't confront you over anything -- and he walked all over them because he could. Yeah, never again, asshole.
on preview: Afroblanca asks: Isn't this "cushion" a bad thing?
Yes, it friggin is. Sorry if my tone got lost in the ramblings. My argument: you get undertipped, it's one less notice going to your boss about what a fuckup you are. The undeserving retain their jobs when a professional -- in any sense -- who lives by their output is out of a job if they screw around with their livelihood.
posted by dreamsign at 10:25 PM on July 25, 2005
That's a tangential phenomenon, and not really central to tipping/not tipping. That's "let's treat the waiter like shit so I can prove I'm a hot shot" and, I find, has a lot more to do with whether the person has ever waited tables than tipping is related to same. And it is disgusting. I took an old "friend" to a very special Japanese restaurant -- lovely people who wouldn't confront you over anything -- and he walked all over them because he could. Yeah, never again, asshole.
on preview: Afroblanca asks: Isn't this "cushion" a bad thing?
Yes, it friggin is. Sorry if my tone got lost in the ramblings. My argument: you get undertipped, it's one less notice going to your boss about what a fuckup you are. The undeserving retain their jobs when a professional -- in any sense -- who lives by their output is out of a job if they screw around with their livelihood.
posted by dreamsign at 10:25 PM on July 25, 2005
I wish this thread hadn't turned so quickly into a debate about tipping.
Because it's not about tipping, it's about the database — and the database is petty and immoral regardless of whether you think the waiter deserves the extra $1.50.
posted by rafter at 10:33 PM on July 25, 2005
Because it's not about tipping, it's about the database — and the database is petty and immoral regardless of whether you think the waiter deserves the extra $1.50.
posted by rafter at 10:33 PM on July 25, 2005
I think that the reason this thread didn't focus on the database, rafter, is because we're pretty much unanimous here that it's petty and immoral. At least, I haven't read anyone's comments that seem to indicate otherwise.
Dissenters?
posted by dreamsign at 10:51 PM on July 25, 2005
Dissenters?
posted by dreamsign at 10:51 PM on July 25, 2005
I make $7.50 an hour. That is a relatively good wage where I live, believe it or not.
I am married with two kids, and I manage to pay rent, drive a comfortable car, feed myself and my family, pay all of our bills, and take the family to the movies occaisonally. Yes, I wish I had made decisions as a younger man which resulted in a better paycheck by this point in my life (that's why I am currently enrolled in university, and still working full-time).
I guess the point of this is that if I had to routinely pay 17% or better for tips, I would never be able to treat my family like human beings. I know that the average serving staff makers MORE than I do, so fuck this bitch.
posted by Chasuk at 11:01 PM on July 25, 2005
I am married with two kids, and I manage to pay rent, drive a comfortable car, feed myself and my family, pay all of our bills, and take the family to the movies occaisonally. Yes, I wish I had made decisions as a younger man which resulted in a better paycheck by this point in my life (that's why I am currently enrolled in university, and still working full-time).
I guess the point of this is that if I had to routinely pay 17% or better for tips, I would never be able to treat my family like human beings. I know that the average serving staff makers MORE than I do, so fuck this bitch.
posted by Chasuk at 11:01 PM on July 25, 2005
hototogishu
Would it make you all happier if there was *no* reward system, no carrot to influence waitstaff?
Yes, that is far superior system. It sounds like you don't travel much, or you would already know this. The service is fantastic and the complete absense of all the problems that tipping causes is just wonderful.
You don't seem to have realised that there are no advantages to having tipping. None. Nada. Yet huge problems and disadvantages. IOW having a tipping system is just idiotic. You maybe assume there are advantages perhaps because you think waitstaff are different to employees in other jobs in that they won't do a good job without tips. No, the opposite is true - waitstaff are just like people in other industries - they do a fine job because they're paid a wage to do it. No tipping is better for the customer, and much MUCH better for the waitstaff.
posted by -harlequin- at 11:45 PM on July 25, 2005
Would it make you all happier if there was *no* reward system, no carrot to influence waitstaff?
Yes, that is far superior system. It sounds like you don't travel much, or you would already know this. The service is fantastic and the complete absense of all the problems that tipping causes is just wonderful.
You don't seem to have realised that there are no advantages to having tipping. None. Nada. Yet huge problems and disadvantages. IOW having a tipping system is just idiotic. You maybe assume there are advantages perhaps because you think waitstaff are different to employees in other jobs in that they won't do a good job without tips. No, the opposite is true - waitstaff are just like people in other industries - they do a fine job because they're paid a wage to do it. No tipping is better for the customer, and much MUCH better for the waitstaff.
posted by -harlequin- at 11:45 PM on July 25, 2005
OK, I read about half the comments but I have to put in my two cents (I'll probably read the rest tomorrow) so excuse me if I'm repeating something others may have said.
I generally do tip well. It usually ranges from 20-25% for adequate to great service, which sometimes makes my girlfriend mad (and she was a waitress herself many years ago). I don't base the tip on the quality of the food, after all I'm not tipping the chef, I'm tipping the waiter or waitress based on the quality of the service they provided. Sometimes a waiter may make mistakes and not do a great job, but if they're friendly and they're not going out of their way to provide lousy service or be snooty I still tip them well. But if you have a "don't give a fuck" attitude and seem to intentionally be inattentive I'll leave nothing.
I understand that waitstaff depend on tips, but as others have said this "Damn it you stiffed me! Give me more money!" posture not only makes me not tip (well), it also makes me want to smack them upside the head. Furthermore, no one forced you to be a waiter and you knew what you were getting into when you decided to enter the profession. You get stiffed sometimes, sure, but sometimes you get great tips that exceed your average customer's hourly income. It all evens out in the end.
I'll never forget eating at an Angus Steak House with my stepdad when I was a kid, and he left something like a 10% tip (it was a big bill) only to have the waitress chase after us and indignantly tell us the tip wasn't enough. My stepdad looked confused for a few seconds before pulling out a few bills from his wallet. The waitress snatched it from his hand and stormed back into the restaurant. I wish instead of giving her more money he'd gone back inside and collected the 10% tip from the table.
posted by Devils Slide at 12:15 AM on July 26, 2005
I generally do tip well. It usually ranges from 20-25% for adequate to great service, which sometimes makes my girlfriend mad (and she was a waitress herself many years ago). I don't base the tip on the quality of the food, after all I'm not tipping the chef, I'm tipping the waiter or waitress based on the quality of the service they provided. Sometimes a waiter may make mistakes and not do a great job, but if they're friendly and they're not going out of their way to provide lousy service or be snooty I still tip them well. But if you have a "don't give a fuck" attitude and seem to intentionally be inattentive I'll leave nothing.
I understand that waitstaff depend on tips, but as others have said this "Damn it you stiffed me! Give me more money!" posture not only makes me not tip (well), it also makes me want to smack them upside the head. Furthermore, no one forced you to be a waiter and you knew what you were getting into when you decided to enter the profession. You get stiffed sometimes, sure, but sometimes you get great tips that exceed your average customer's hourly income. It all evens out in the end.
I'll never forget eating at an Angus Steak House with my stepdad when I was a kid, and he left something like a 10% tip (it was a big bill) only to have the waitress chase after us and indignantly tell us the tip wasn't enough. My stepdad looked confused for a few seconds before pulling out a few bills from his wallet. The waitress snatched it from his hand and stormed back into the restaurant. I wish instead of giving her more money he'd gone back inside and collected the 10% tip from the table.
posted by Devils Slide at 12:15 AM on July 26, 2005
I've already made it clear in this thread that I know other countries don't operate the way the US does.
I didn't say the US's system was correct, or better, or good. It isn't. It's obnoxious. It also is not going to change any time soon. Why pretend it's anything other than what it is? There's a rather amusing story on waiterrant about a couple who told them waiter they didn't tip because they didn't want to reinforce the owner's poor labor practices (or some such drivel). Waiter stared them down.
So far we have:
1. a stupid database that no one seems to actually advocate, not even the ardent pro-tip crowd.
2. a lot of people who think waitstaff should get another job if they don't want to rely on the munificent largesse of their patrons (these jobs, they're just...like, everywhere? Maaannnn).
3. another lot of people who think tipping is good because restaurants *don't* pay living wages, and you're making up the difference with tips, regardless of whether it is good, bad, ridiculous, or just more noise in an already fucked up system.
If we weren't making up the difference in tips, we'd be paying more for our food. It's an economist's guess how much more--I have no idea. I'd be fine with this. I've asked if others who are against tipping would be fine with this, and so far there have been crickets for an answer.
-harlequin-:
Which of my comments were you contradicting, again? Where am I advocating a tip-based system? Where have I said this was a good thing, other than simply a current necessity? Where did I say waitstaff wouldn't give good service without tips? It clearly works in other countries (but you didn't know I knew that, so it's ok)--but that isn't the system in the US, as it stands, *right now*. Quit jumping at shadows I'm not casting.
rafter:
maybe I missed it, but no one actually seems to think this database is a good thing. I doubt anyone would object about a restaurant having a long institutional memory of bad customers, but this goes far, fary beyond that. It's fucking stupid. It's devolved into another tip thread because there's nothing else worth taking seriously here.
posted by hototogisu at 12:23 AM on July 26, 2005
I didn't say the US's system was correct, or better, or good. It isn't. It's obnoxious. It also is not going to change any time soon. Why pretend it's anything other than what it is? There's a rather amusing story on waiterrant about a couple who told them waiter they didn't tip because they didn't want to reinforce the owner's poor labor practices (or some such drivel). Waiter stared them down.
So far we have:
1. a stupid database that no one seems to actually advocate, not even the ardent pro-tip crowd.
2. a lot of people who think waitstaff should get another job if they don't want to rely on the munificent largesse of their patrons (these jobs, they're just...like, everywhere? Maaannnn).
3. another lot of people who think tipping is good because restaurants *don't* pay living wages, and you're making up the difference with tips, regardless of whether it is good, bad, ridiculous, or just more noise in an already fucked up system.
If we weren't making up the difference in tips, we'd be paying more for our food. It's an economist's guess how much more--I have no idea. I'd be fine with this. I've asked if others who are against tipping would be fine with this, and so far there have been crickets for an answer.
-harlequin-:
Which of my comments were you contradicting, again? Where am I advocating a tip-based system? Where have I said this was a good thing, other than simply a current necessity? Where did I say waitstaff wouldn't give good service without tips? It clearly works in other countries (but you didn't know I knew that, so it's ok)--but that isn't the system in the US, as it stands, *right now*. Quit jumping at shadows I'm not casting.
rafter:
maybe I missed it, but no one actually seems to think this database is a good thing. I doubt anyone would object about a restaurant having a long institutional memory of bad customers, but this goes far, fary beyond that. It's fucking stupid. It's devolved into another tip thread because there's nothing else worth taking seriously here.
posted by hototogisu at 12:23 AM on July 26, 2005
Devils Slide has it dead on: you know what you're getting in to when you sign up for waitstaff. I have just as much contempt for waitrons with an obnoxious sense of entitlement as I do for those who consistently stiff the help. If you can't do your job (any job) without a certain level of graciousness, you should just off yourself now and get it over with.
Thankfully, both cases seem to be fairly rare.
posted by hototogisu at 12:31 AM on July 26, 2005
Thankfully, both cases seem to be fairly rare.
posted by hototogisu at 12:31 AM on July 26, 2005
hototogisu
I have an idea, how about we just abolish tips and we pay 20 or 30% more for food? Would it make you all happier if there was *no* reward system, no carrot to influence waitstaff?
You mean, besides their salary, which should be the responsibility of their employers? Or any other benefits they should receive just like any other employee? I don't tip other employees in other businesses, and society hasn't collapsed in flames.
In other words, yes, I think it would be good to abolish tips and stop the free ride the restaurant owners are getting from this system. Pay your own employees and charge what you want; you decide what you pay your employees, make it fair and leave me out of it; I'll decide whether to eat there by myself, thanks.
posted by Poagao at 12:34 AM on July 26, 2005
I have an idea, how about we just abolish tips and we pay 20 or 30% more for food? Would it make you all happier if there was *no* reward system, no carrot to influence waitstaff?
You mean, besides their salary, which should be the responsibility of their employers? Or any other benefits they should receive just like any other employee? I don't tip other employees in other businesses, and society hasn't collapsed in flames.
In other words, yes, I think it would be good to abolish tips and stop the free ride the restaurant owners are getting from this system. Pay your own employees and charge what you want; you decide what you pay your employees, make it fair and leave me out of it; I'll decide whether to eat there by myself, thanks.
posted by Poagao at 12:34 AM on July 26, 2005
Back on topic: Has anyone gotten any info on whether the practice of divulging credit card information from restaurants is illegal or not? Personally, I think it's despicable behavior and would like to see lawsuits, but I'm not lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
posted by Poagao at 12:35 AM on July 26, 2005
posted by Poagao at 12:35 AM on July 26, 2005
Poagao, I agree.
Those "free ride" margins are going to get taken out of you regardless of whether tipping is implicitly required or the food is explicitly more expensive. Since it's the same effect, why do so many people get miffed about it?
Also, I know of not a single waitron making a salary--maybe a few managers do somewhere, but by and by I seriously doubt anyone does.
To echo what Poagao asked: how much of this information isn't considered public, anyway? The database very blatantly says no to credit card numbers--is a name and a city illegal?
posted by hototogisu at 12:42 AM on July 26, 2005
Those "free ride" margins are going to get taken out of you regardless of whether tipping is implicitly required or the food is explicitly more expensive. Since it's the same effect, why do so many people get miffed about it?
Also, I know of not a single waitron making a salary--maybe a few managers do somewhere, but by and by I seriously doubt anyone does.
To echo what Poagao asked: how much of this information isn't considered public, anyway? The database very blatantly says no to credit card numbers--is a name and a city illegal?
posted by hototogisu at 12:42 AM on July 26, 2005
And then there's the problem waiter at the other end of the spectrum: the dreaded cloyingly friendly overly attentive waiter. You usually come across this guy or girl when the restaurant isn't busy. He acts like you're his best buddies. He talks and talks, telling you about his day, making joke after joke, leaning in conspiratorially to share a secret with you. He checks in on you every two minutes and eighteen seconds, asking you if you're enjoying your food, if you need a refill on your topped off drink, if there's anything else you want, or sometimes just to well...chat some more. He likes touching you and your companion. He keeps patting you on the shoulder, on the back, on the arm. After a while your palms begin to sweat when you see him making a beeline for you. "Oh God, here he comes!" You start speaking animatedly to your companion hoping he'll think you're discussing something important or private and won't butt in. Or else you bury your face in your plate and chew huge mouthfuls of food thinking he won't expect you to carry on a conversation with him as you're masticating. But noooo. He's there again with that big smile on his face...and he has more to say! You honestly expect him to pull up a chair and sit with you (this has actually happened on a couple occasions). You think this is way of securing a big tip, but what you really fear (and know deep down inside) is that he's that extroverted and intrusive. You're his entertainment.
In his case I leave a 15% tip that hopefully tells him friendliness in your waitstaff is a good thing albeit in small doses. Oh, and I never go back to that restaurant...ever!
posted by Devils Slide at 1:00 AM on July 26, 2005
In his case I leave a 15% tip that hopefully tells him friendliness in your waitstaff is a good thing albeit in small doses. Oh, and I never go back to that restaurant...ever!
posted by Devils Slide at 1:00 AM on July 26, 2005
I've asked if others who are against tipping would be fine with this, and so far there have been crickets for an answer.
This cricket would be thrilled if tips were abolished, and restaurant owners had to pay their staff a decent wage. I would gladly pay more for my meal to make this so, and I'm pretty skint, usually.
posted by Chasuk at 1:28 AM on July 26, 2005
This cricket would be thrilled if tips were abolished, and restaurant owners had to pay their staff a decent wage. I would gladly pay more for my meal to make this so, and I'm pretty skint, usually.
posted by Chasuk at 1:28 AM on July 26, 2005
sorry Chasuk, I totally missed that comment the first time around.
posted by hototogisu at 1:37 AM on July 26, 2005
posted by hototogisu at 1:37 AM on July 26, 2005
Michael Jordan - Chicago - 6 in party - $487.24 / $20.00 - 4%
Michael Jordan - Chicago - 4 in party - $750.00 / $500.00 - 66%
posted by rory at 2:49 AM on July 26, 2005
Michael Jordan - Chicago - 4 in party - $750.00 / $500.00 - 66%
posted by rory at 2:49 AM on July 26, 2005
Of course I would be happy with either abolishing tipping entirely or making it a genuine extra for exceptional service and paying waitstaff a genuine living wage. Why wouldn't I be? It seems silly even to ask the question.
My point was, as long as this *isn't* the case, I'm bloody well going to tip well.
posted by kyrademon at 2:50 AM on July 26, 2005
My point was, as long as this *isn't* the case, I'm bloody well going to tip well.
posted by kyrademon at 2:50 AM on July 26, 2005
2. a lot of people who think waitstaff should get another job if they don't want to rely on the munificent largesse of their patrons (these jobs, they're just...like, everywhere? Maaannnn)
Minimum wage jobs? Because that's the standard being thrown around -- that these people aren't payed minimum wage. Yes, yes they are, like, everywhere. They're not always pleasant, and IMHO you have to work harder at a lot of them than higher-paying jobs that require more skills, but waiting tables is not the only option.
And while we're on that track, I'm sure you're just as generous with the telemarketer who calls during dinner, right? Because they're also just doing their job. Hey, what if their attitude is also shitty when they call you?
posted by dreamsign at 6:12 AM on July 26, 2005
Minimum wage jobs? Because that's the standard being thrown around -- that these people aren't payed minimum wage. Yes, yes they are, like, everywhere. They're not always pleasant, and IMHO you have to work harder at a lot of them than higher-paying jobs that require more skills, but waiting tables is not the only option.
And while we're on that track, I'm sure you're just as generous with the telemarketer who calls during dinner, right? Because they're also just doing their job. Hey, what if their attitude is also shitty when they call you?
posted by dreamsign at 6:12 AM on July 26, 2005
My number one rule in customer service is "Never make 'it' the customer's problem." Doesn't matter what 'it' is. This is diferent than "the customer is always right," because, frankly, they aren't always right even if they think they are.
BUT--anything that is the organization's problem should never be brought to bear on the customer. If it absolutely must (in our current case, the restaurant is out of an advertised special), then it must be handled with tact.
I see very few comments here that indicate that, among USians, good service will not earn a good tip. I do see numerous comments that indicate that if there are problems at an establishment, whether they are isolated (one bad waiter) or systemic (food sucks/servie sucks/attitude sucks), the patron should forget all that and honor some unwritten code that says that--It Is The Customer's Problem.
Hear the crickets ROAR: Pay wait staff a living wage. Adjust prices to reflect that fact (honestly, I don't think they would have to rise too far). Or offer wait staff equity to encourage their efforts.
I understand fully the current US system and I tip well when it is deserved. If I tip poorly you know why. I understand the "venting" attraction of the databse in question, but it reflects poorly on the wait staff industry, showing a petty, at times malicious streak. This is not reflective of the industry, which probably has 20% stars, 60% average, and 20% incompetents (as in any other job).
But make it my problem? You are demonstrating that you have misplaced your ire.
posted by beelzbubba at 6:18 AM on July 26, 2005
BUT--anything that is the organization's problem should never be brought to bear on the customer. If it absolutely must (in our current case, the restaurant is out of an advertised special), then it must be handled with tact.
I see very few comments here that indicate that, among USians, good service will not earn a good tip. I do see numerous comments that indicate that if there are problems at an establishment, whether they are isolated (one bad waiter) or systemic (food sucks/servie sucks/attitude sucks), the patron should forget all that and honor some unwritten code that says that--It Is The Customer's Problem.
Hear the crickets ROAR: Pay wait staff a living wage. Adjust prices to reflect that fact (honestly, I don't think they would have to rise too far). Or offer wait staff equity to encourage their efforts.
I understand fully the current US system and I tip well when it is deserved. If I tip poorly you know why. I understand the "venting" attraction of the databse in question, but it reflects poorly on the wait staff industry, showing a petty, at times malicious streak. This is not reflective of the industry, which probably has 20% stars, 60% average, and 20% incompetents (as in any other job).
But make it my problem? You are demonstrating that you have misplaced your ire.
posted by beelzbubba at 6:18 AM on July 26, 2005
This thread was worth 10%, tops.
posted by Stonewall Jackson at 6:27 AM on July 26, 2005
posted by Stonewall Jackson at 6:27 AM on July 26, 2005
I absolutely agree with whoever upthread said lousy tipping is passive aggressive . . . if there's a legitimate problem with your food or service, call over a manager and complain! Chances are very good you'll get a reduced bill, more food, whatever. You're spending 100 bucks or however much it may be on a meal, why fume silently and ruin the night out for the triumph of saving yourself 15 or 20% of the cost.
I'm another who'll tip anyway and complain to the owner afterward, if anyone's keeping tally. While all the "they should abolish the tipping system" comments are nice thoughts, it ain't happening any time soon & half the restaurants in New York would go bust at that point anyway.
posted by jamesonandwater at 6:39 AM on July 26, 2005
I'm another who'll tip anyway and complain to the owner afterward, if anyone's keeping tally. While all the "they should abolish the tipping system" comments are nice thoughts, it ain't happening any time soon & half the restaurants in New York would go bust at that point anyway.
posted by jamesonandwater at 6:39 AM on July 26, 2005
davy said: what ARE the duties and privileges associated with being a regular in a bar?
What I have learned:
1) Tip 1 buck per drink; beer, wine, and simple mixed drinks (X and Y). Tip double for free drinks.
2) Always pay cash.
3) Unless the bar is a place that specializes in fancy/blended drinks, don't order them.
4) Chat with the bartender when they chat with you and are not busy.
5) Learn names and faces. Come in at the same shift every week if you can.
This establishes you as an easy patron who does not suck up a lot of the bartender's time, tips reasonably, and isn't a pain. Other waitstaff/bartenders see/sense/are told about this and over time your status in their eyes grows. Once you have two or three staff on your side, you start to see free drinks (never expect them and never, ever ask for them), faster service, and so on. Once you gain regular status, you can scale your visits back to once or twice a month, but need to be wary of shift and staff changes.
Of course, as I just got a 1/2 keg home draft system, my bar time has been weak, if any, of late.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:49 AM on July 26, 2005
What I have learned:
1) Tip 1 buck per drink; beer, wine, and simple mixed drinks (X and Y). Tip double for free drinks.
2) Always pay cash.
3) Unless the bar is a place that specializes in fancy/blended drinks, don't order them.
4) Chat with the bartender when they chat with you and are not busy.
5) Learn names and faces. Come in at the same shift every week if you can.
This establishes you as an easy patron who does not suck up a lot of the bartender's time, tips reasonably, and isn't a pain. Other waitstaff/bartenders see/sense/are told about this and over time your status in their eyes grows. Once you have two or three staff on your side, you start to see free drinks (never expect them and never, ever ask for them), faster service, and so on. Once you gain regular status, you can scale your visits back to once or twice a month, but need to be wary of shift and staff changes.
Of course, as I just got a 1/2 keg home draft system, my bar time has been weak, if any, of late.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:49 AM on July 26, 2005
if I had to routinely pay 17% or better for tips, I would never be able to treat my family like human beings
What does this mean? Having human beings serve you is the only way you can treat your family like human beings? This makes no sense.
Here's an idea: if you can't afford to go out, don't go out. Millions of people cook their own food every day! If you actually expect to pay the same amount "going out" as "staying in," well, might I suggest you head to your local McDonalds instead?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2005
What does this mean? Having human beings serve you is the only way you can treat your family like human beings? This makes no sense.
Here's an idea: if you can't afford to go out, don't go out. Millions of people cook their own food every day! If you actually expect to pay the same amount "going out" as "staying in," well, might I suggest you head to your local McDonalds instead?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:07 AM on July 26, 2005
malevolent, I don't believe that getting rid of tipping would fix the food service industry. I think the same customers would still expect groveling even though there's no reward for the server involved.
As a teenager/early 20something, I worked in food service jobs where tips weren't involved and saw this nearly every day. At a place like Subway sandwiches, you'll have people absolutely freak out that you're required to charge extra for that many extra black olives.
I had a boss who'd previously worked as a bank teller, and she said she'd made $10,000 mistakes before, and customers would say "that's okay, just fix it," but if you don't give people as many banana peppers as they're expecting, look out!
posted by kimota at 7:11 AM on July 26, 2005
As a teenager/early 20something, I worked in food service jobs where tips weren't involved and saw this nearly every day. At a place like Subway sandwiches, you'll have people absolutely freak out that you're required to charge extra for that many extra black olives.
I had a boss who'd previously worked as a bank teller, and she said she'd made $10,000 mistakes before, and customers would say "that's okay, just fix it," but if you don't give people as many banana peppers as they're expecting, look out!
posted by kimota at 7:11 AM on July 26, 2005
Tip you, fair barista, for handing me my $1.79 coffee just now? Bullshit. You get health benefits!
I wish you would tell my barista fiance that he has health benefits - his workplace certainly never did - because he doesn't. And he works fucking hard.
posted by agregoli at 7:23 AM on July 26, 2005
I wish you would tell my barista fiance that he has health benefits - his workplace certainly never did - because he doesn't. And he works fucking hard.
posted by agregoli at 7:23 AM on July 26, 2005
Couple things: One reason that I generally tip decently, even when the service sucks, is that a lot of places split tips between waitstaff and support staff (like bussers, etc.) while everyone gets the waitstaff rate. If I don't like the service, I tell the manager. If the manager's not responsive, there's always the nuclear option of just not paying anything. If I get arrested, I'll make sure that it makes the newspaper that I was willing to go to jail over the incredibly shitty service. Everyone loses.
Now, I've worked a couple of jobs that had tipping. The first was odd, because it was short-order Mexican, and there was a tip jar that went only to the cooks. The counter staff was not allowed to mention that to the customers for fear of rebuke by the managers (who were cooks). What happened there? Well, I did two things: I got surly, and I got regulars. I had no tolerance for bullshit from people who thought they were entitled or wanted me to go out of my way for their bullshit special orders or whatever. If I got any attitude from the customer, I'd give it right back. Fuck 'em. In doing so, weirdly enough, I developed a cadre of customers who knew how to order and who I'd make sure got extra stuff or whatever, and I was happy to joke around with them. They'd find out that the tips went to the cooks and start leaving me tips on the tables, for which I would happily bus their dishes or refill their drinks. The food sucked, but I'd make dining fun enough that they'd come back every week (most had regular nights).
The other job that depended on tips was pizza driving, something that I've done a couple of times. I think more drivers get screwed than waiters, simply because there's more social pressure to tip the waiters in a restaurant with everyone watching you. The worst tippers? Students. We were close to the dorms, and they'd get irate if you didn't have exact change (down to the penny, which is a pain in the ass to carry in your bank), and would tip 35¢ on a pizza. So, after a bit of that, they'd get their food last, even though they were right next to the store. The people who tipped the best? Well, as opposed to the previous pizza whore, I found that the rich suburbanites ended up tipping me the best (possibly because I was a clean cut white guy). Well, and the creepy disabled guys, who generally tipped excellently (one of 'em would always give me five Susan B. Anthonys, which was pretty cool; the other guy in a wheelchair was always having coke parties with gay hookers, and I could usually count on at least $20 and once got $100. He was out in the middle of nowhere, so no one else would take him anything, but it was always worth it for me).
Oh, and one last note: One of the things that sealed the deal with my current girlfriend was when the waitress gave me too much in change and I went back in to leave it for her as a tip. I've found that you can impress a woman much more by being nice to waiters and treating them like humans than you can by being a dick. (Though it is always weird to be waited on by a friend that you know outside of the business. Always tip them well...)
posted by klangklangston at 8:17 AM on July 26, 2005
Now, I've worked a couple of jobs that had tipping. The first was odd, because it was short-order Mexican, and there was a tip jar that went only to the cooks. The counter staff was not allowed to mention that to the customers for fear of rebuke by the managers (who were cooks). What happened there? Well, I did two things: I got surly, and I got regulars. I had no tolerance for bullshit from people who thought they were entitled or wanted me to go out of my way for their bullshit special orders or whatever. If I got any attitude from the customer, I'd give it right back. Fuck 'em. In doing so, weirdly enough, I developed a cadre of customers who knew how to order and who I'd make sure got extra stuff or whatever, and I was happy to joke around with them. They'd find out that the tips went to the cooks and start leaving me tips on the tables, for which I would happily bus their dishes or refill their drinks. The food sucked, but I'd make dining fun enough that they'd come back every week (most had regular nights).
The other job that depended on tips was pizza driving, something that I've done a couple of times. I think more drivers get screwed than waiters, simply because there's more social pressure to tip the waiters in a restaurant with everyone watching you. The worst tippers? Students. We were close to the dorms, and they'd get irate if you didn't have exact change (down to the penny, which is a pain in the ass to carry in your bank), and would tip 35¢ on a pizza. So, after a bit of that, they'd get their food last, even though they were right next to the store. The people who tipped the best? Well, as opposed to the previous pizza whore, I found that the rich suburbanites ended up tipping me the best (possibly because I was a clean cut white guy). Well, and the creepy disabled guys, who generally tipped excellently (one of 'em would always give me five Susan B. Anthonys, which was pretty cool; the other guy in a wheelchair was always having coke parties with gay hookers, and I could usually count on at least $20 and once got $100. He was out in the middle of nowhere, so no one else would take him anything, but it was always worth it for me).
Oh, and one last note: One of the things that sealed the deal with my current girlfriend was when the waitress gave me too much in change and I went back in to leave it for her as a tip. I've found that you can impress a woman much more by being nice to waiters and treating them like humans than you can by being a dick. (Though it is always weird to be waited on by a friend that you know outside of the business. Always tip them well...)
posted by klangklangston at 8:17 AM on July 26, 2005
One reason that I generally tip decently, even when the service sucks, is that a lot of places split tips between waitstaff and support staff (like bussers, etc.)
Excellent point: just because your server sucked doesn't mean you should take out your frustration on the busboys, the bartender and the host/ess (who all have to be paid-out at the end of the night from your tips). Unless they all sucked, in which case... fair game, I guess.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:59 AM on July 26, 2005
Excellent point: just because your server sucked doesn't mean you should take out your frustration on the busboys, the bartender and the host/ess (who all have to be paid-out at the end of the night from your tips). Unless they all sucked, in which case... fair game, I guess.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:59 AM on July 26, 2005
"the dreaded cloyingly friendly overly attentive waiter."
"Cloyingly friendly" and "over-attentive" are seperate things, and they're seperate problems.
I found that the most subtle skill I had and refined as a waitperson was "reading the table". People have different expectations of the relationship they'll have with the waitperson. Some people really like the chummy waitperson. Some people want the waitperson to be invisible. Everyone wants their needs met immediately and preferably without asking.
So a good waitperson reads the table when they approach and as they start their interaction, then behaves accordingly. Working in fine-dining and according to my personality, I was inclined to an attentive, friendly, but very professional and unobtrusive style. Raucous people presented a challenge to me--many wanted to integrate me into their party. Managing to do meet their needs to some degree with good grace in that circumstance is just as important as the reverse.
Most of the people I worked with were not very good waitpersons. Most of the good waitpersons I worked with had a somewhat inflexible style of interacting with customers. Learning to recognize and accomodate different personality types was just one of the many continuing benefits my time waiting tables provides me.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2005
"Cloyingly friendly" and "over-attentive" are seperate things, and they're seperate problems.
I found that the most subtle skill I had and refined as a waitperson was "reading the table". People have different expectations of the relationship they'll have with the waitperson. Some people really like the chummy waitperson. Some people want the waitperson to be invisible. Everyone wants their needs met immediately and preferably without asking.
So a good waitperson reads the table when they approach and as they start their interaction, then behaves accordingly. Working in fine-dining and according to my personality, I was inclined to an attentive, friendly, but very professional and unobtrusive style. Raucous people presented a challenge to me--many wanted to integrate me into their party. Managing to do meet their needs to some degree with good grace in that circumstance is just as important as the reverse.
Most of the people I worked with were not very good waitpersons. Most of the good waitpersons I worked with had a somewhat inflexible style of interacting with customers. Learning to recognize and accomodate different personality types was just one of the many continuing benefits my time waiting tables provides me.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2005
Every time that I have been in the situation where waitstaff take care of a problem for me (such as by taking a f'ed up item off the bill), I return that money to them in a tip. Same thing if they give me a discount--goes right back to them.
Aside to jamesonandwater--when NYC goes to the fair wage system and half of the bars and restaurants close, just how long do you think it will be before the smart operators open back up? Like NYC could exist without restaurants. And half of them go broke now anyway. Silliest.excuse.evar.
posted by beelzbubba at 2:19 PM on July 26, 2005
Aside to jamesonandwater--when NYC goes to the fair wage system and half of the bars and restaurants close, just how long do you think it will be before the smart operators open back up? Like NYC could exist without restaurants. And half of them go broke now anyway. Silliest.excuse.evar.
posted by beelzbubba at 2:19 PM on July 26, 2005
I'm sure there are tons and tons of good economic analysis of the effects of the tipping arrangement in US restaurants. My intuition tells me that although at first glance the customer-waitperson interaction appears unmediated and flexible and therefore more frictionless and implicitly more efficient, the conclusion of greater efficiency is wrong. It certainly doesn't seem that particularly socially just. But then, few things at that economic stratum seem (or are) socially just.
The cost to restaurant patrons of a no-tipping system where the employer pays a competitve wage would raise customer prices almost certainly by more than 15% per unit. This is because by having the customer directly subsidize the compensation for a large portion of their staff, they're saving a good deal more than just that direct 15% or so. Anyway, in a mixed system, they really can't raise per unit prices and so would have to reduce the unit size and/or tighten up elsewhere. That's what a small minority here in the US actually do.
In my opinion, the situation in terms of the psychology of customers is very similar to the situation with car buying and its related haggling. Most consumers dislike and resent the haggling system, most think it isn't fair, most will say they prefer a no-haggling system. And there is, certainly, a growing movement to change this or to at least cater to the needs of those who feel most strongly this way. Nevertheless, there are strong pressures for both the supplier and the consumer to continue to use the haggling system and so the convention persists.
I also suspect that restaurant management preserves the tipping system because of the leverage it gains by isolating and antagonizing against each other different labor groups. It's in their interest to perpetuate the overpaid waitperson image: the grossly underpaid senior kitchen staff, for example, then tend to focus their ire on the waitstaff and not managment.
Bottom line is, however, that despite the ubiquity of restaurants in the US, individually and collectively the industry is tenuous. Restaurants fail at a substantially higher rate than other small-businesses. It is very hard to make money in the business because much of the demand changes very quickly, both in terms of product and in terms of location; and most owners and management are notoriously poor business people. Most are losing money, not profitable, and they're hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Moving to a full-wage system for all staff would certainly push them over the edge. The result will be fewer restaurants and higher prices. Forcing that result legislatively may well be, nevertheless, the best and right thing to do--even in economic terms because the current system encourages an allocation of capital to a generally inefficient industry.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:21 PM on July 26, 2005
The cost to restaurant patrons of a no-tipping system where the employer pays a competitve wage would raise customer prices almost certainly by more than 15% per unit. This is because by having the customer directly subsidize the compensation for a large portion of their staff, they're saving a good deal more than just that direct 15% or so. Anyway, in a mixed system, they really can't raise per unit prices and so would have to reduce the unit size and/or tighten up elsewhere. That's what a small minority here in the US actually do.
In my opinion, the situation in terms of the psychology of customers is very similar to the situation with car buying and its related haggling. Most consumers dislike and resent the haggling system, most think it isn't fair, most will say they prefer a no-haggling system. And there is, certainly, a growing movement to change this or to at least cater to the needs of those who feel most strongly this way. Nevertheless, there are strong pressures for both the supplier and the consumer to continue to use the haggling system and so the convention persists.
I also suspect that restaurant management preserves the tipping system because of the leverage it gains by isolating and antagonizing against each other different labor groups. It's in their interest to perpetuate the overpaid waitperson image: the grossly underpaid senior kitchen staff, for example, then tend to focus their ire on the waitstaff and not managment.
Bottom line is, however, that despite the ubiquity of restaurants in the US, individually and collectively the industry is tenuous. Restaurants fail at a substantially higher rate than other small-businesses. It is very hard to make money in the business because much of the demand changes very quickly, both in terms of product and in terms of location; and most owners and management are notoriously poor business people. Most are losing money, not profitable, and they're hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Moving to a full-wage system for all staff would certainly push them over the edge. The result will be fewer restaurants and higher prices. Forcing that result legislatively may well be, nevertheless, the best and right thing to do--even in economic terms because the current system encourages an allocation of capital to a generally inefficient industry.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 2:21 PM on July 26, 2005
Interesting, Ethereal Bligh. I suppose as you said a good waiter can read people in order to determine how they want him/her to interact with them and then act accordingly. The nightmare "cloyingly friendly" types that I described can't be faulted for not recognizing that their particular style made me uncomfortable. Not right away anyway. But they weren't good at reading all the cues that said "back off a little bit please" through the course of our interaction, where most other people would have caught on after a while.
posted by Devils Slide at 8:24 PM on July 26, 2005
posted by Devils Slide at 8:24 PM on July 26, 2005
Should tipping change when you find out that the tips are pooled by the staff?
posted by turbo_simian at 4:43 AM on July 27, 2005
posted by turbo_simian at 4:43 AM on July 27, 2005
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