Iraq has descended into chaos way beyond West's worst-case scenario

July 27, 2005 11:36 PM

The war in Iraq is now joining the South African War (1899-1902) and the Suez crisis in 1956 as ill-considered ventures that have done Britain more harm than good. It has demonstrably strengthened al-Qaeda by providing it with a large pool of activists and sympathisers across the Muslim world it did not possess before the invasion of 2003. The war that started out as a demonstration of US strength as the world's only superpower has turned into a demonstration of weakness. Its 135 000-strong army does not control much of Iraq. The suicide bombing campaign in Iraq is unique. Never before have so many fanatical young Muslims been willing to kill themselves trying to destroy those they see as their enemies. On a single day in Baghdad this month 12 bombers blew themselves up. There have been more than 500 suicide attacks in Iraq during the past year. It is this campaign that has now spread to Britain and Egypt...
Iraq has descended into chaos way beyond West's worst-case scenario
posted by y2karl (61 comments total)

...Recent weeks have seen the insurgency reach new heights of sustained brutality. The violence is ever more centered on sectarian killings, with Sunni insurgents targeting hundreds of Shiite and Kurdish civilians in suicide bombings. There are reports of Shiite death squads, some with links to the interior ministry, retaliating by abducting and killing Sunni clerics and community leaders. The past 10 days have seen such a quickening of these killings, particularly by the insurgents, that many Iraqis are saying that the civil war has already begun. If It's Civil War, Do We Know It?

Meanwhile,

Kurdish leaders have presented a redrawn map with a larger Kurdistan to the Iraqi National Assembly for consideration in the new constitution, a Kurdish party official said Thursday. The map reflected long-standing Kurdish claims that stretches their territory south toward the capital of Baghdad -- well beyond the boundaries of the current Kurdish autonomous area. Kurdish leaders present redrawn map with larger Kurdistan...
posted by y2karl at 11:37 PM on July 27, 2005

Correction: "Never before have so many ... been willing to kill themselves trying to destroy those they see as their enemies" - Suicide bombing as it practiced today is (relatively) new, but people were often willing to sacrifice themselves & die for a cause they believed in -
posted by growabrain at 12:32 AM on July 28, 2005

Dude, ok, we get it. Iraq bad. *cries uncle*
posted by tweak at 12:50 AM on July 28, 2005

and you could have at least had the decency to tag this post 'Iraq'
posted by tweak at 12:51 AM on July 28, 2005

was that a duplicate post? because it felt like a duplicate post.
posted by bryak at 1:38 AM on July 28, 2005

I would have thought that this information would best be disseminated through kirkaracha's Bug Out post.
That said, it's looking like a less than auspicious future ahead. Troop withdrawl = civil war. Troops staying = suicide bombing/guerilla war. Neither way points to a rosey future. UN? Unlikely. Partioning the country? Perhaps .. but not by the Kurds.
posted by peacay at 1:59 AM on July 28, 2005

O/T:
And yeah, y2karl I recall you said you were less than happy about postediting of tags by the man but didn't you rescind that negativity? So how come no tags? You're not the only person doing it but I figure with you it's on purpose rather than an oversight ?? 3 of your last 4 posts are sans tags. What gives?
posted by peacay at 2:14 AM on July 28, 2005

I think a "GYOBF" is appropiate here.
posted by salmacis at 3:32 AM on July 28, 2005

My heart goes out to all who suffer in Iraq. I fear the turmoil of the Iraq war will become the "little war" that spread to the world as oil becomes scarcer and nations scramble for energy security as world oil reserves decline.

Oil dependent democracies like the U.S. and Europe will suffer the most as their need for oil increases and their oil extraction rates and reserves decline far more rapidly than those of the Middle East, OPEC and the dictators who control this cartel.

This week the U.S. Congress will pass an energy bill that makes things worse. It subsidizes a speed up in domestic oil depletion making the U.S. more subservient to world oil barons and Middle East oil dictators. (U.S. holds only 3% of world oil reserves. OPEC controls 61%; Persian Gulf nations alone hold 50%).

America must wage war on oil and in its home markets if world war is to be avoided.

The new energy bill should have been a "Declaration of Energy Independence" and a clear message to oil barons, OPEC dictators and US allies that American ingenuity and capital would focus on replacing oil with North America's abundance of undepletable energy and a massive conservation program.

The energy bill should have fired another shot heard round the world. Instead it sticks its head in oil sands and disproportionately subsidizes depletable fossil and radioactive energy making America's abundance of undepletable energy from solar, wind, wave and biomass less competitive.

Stand up for democracy, America and world peace. Call your congressperson and senators today. Tell them to vote against the dangerous energy bill. Please.
posted by bill.cleanpeace at 3:49 AM on July 28, 2005

I think y2karl isn't bothering with tags because, when you see that big paragraph of tiny text and that popup pull quote on mouseover, you know who it is and what it's gonna be about.
posted by alumshubby at 5:08 AM on July 28, 2005

I’m just amazed at the complacency of the American citizen. No WMDs, Saddam is gone, yet the war goes on. Why is there no protests in Washington or mass demonstrations against the war? The “insurgents” are just everyday Iraqis who don’t want an American proxy government controlling their oil.
posted by disgruntled at 5:12 AM on July 28, 2005

people were often willing to sacrifice themselves & die for a cause they believed in

Such are our ways with dynamiters. These men were not Britishers, but aliens who came over in time of peace to perpetrate outrages, which if committed by soldiers in time of war, would ensure them short shrift after trial by drumhead court-martial ... This case further illustrates what I have said about dynamiters and their crimes. In war the guns of an enemy would no doubt spare an astronomical Observatory, for none but savages would wish to injure an institution of that kind ; but these fiends are the enemies of humanity. And this Bourdin was an alien anarchist who was living here only by the courtesy of our law, or, I should be rather disposed to say, by the criminal apathy with which our law is administered.

(Top Cop Sir Robert Anderson writing in 1910 about American and French "dynamite outrage" cells committing terror acts in the UK during the Late Victorian era.)
posted by meehawl at 5:13 AM on July 28, 2005

Yet another fine post y2karl. Thanks.

You guys lay off y2karl. Take it to metatalk or something. The only bad part of this thread is your whining.

Can we all say quagmire yet? Damn PNAC imperialist idiots!
posted by nofundy at 5:34 AM on July 28, 2005

meehawl, that's a very cool link. Thanks.

Yet another fine post y2karl.

Come on, nofundy; it's a pretty slim opinion piece for a front page post. I've defended y2karl's Iraq fixation in the past, mainly because of the quality of the links, but this one, coming just a day after the "Operation Bug Out" post peacay links above, does seem to have crossed a line into tedium. And the "why no tags?" question is interesting, too. Not worth its own MeTa thread, but definitely worth noting.
posted by mediareport at 6:47 AM on July 28, 2005

Perhaps it's time we start protesting again. With approval for the president and approval for the war at all time lows, it seems the right time to restart the engine.

Does anyone remember the name of the main umbrella ord that was coordinating the pre-war protests? I've been out of the loop since then...
posted by VulcanMike at 6:51 AM on July 28, 2005

I think that considering all that is going on in Iraq lately, there is no tedium involved here so much as timely information about a subject that greatly affects the country and the world. One of the websites I visit on a daily basis is Antiwar.com. Really does a great job at telling about what's what and who's who.
posted by mk1gti at 6:51 AM on July 28, 2005

No WMDs, Saddam is gone, yet the war goes on. Why is there no protests in Washington or mass demonstrations against the war?

Because we're too poor to protest, or too busy working.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:51 AM on July 28, 2005

bill.cleanpeace, please stop spamming MetaFilter with your single issue. You emailed me and I assume many others out of the blue! Ok we get it. Your obviously here for one reason only.
posted by stbalbach at 6:52 AM on July 28, 2005

As far as the complacency of the american citizen, I think that people are a bit overwhelmed these days at realizing just how little their say matters on these kinds of issues and just how intrusive and authoritarian our government (and corporations) have become. There is no accountability and has not been since Nixon's Watergate forward. 'The People' are the congresspersons and senators and lobbyists in D.C.
We are but motes in God's eye . . .
posted by mk1gti at 6:54 AM on July 28, 2005

It's simple, disgruntled. Americans are completely dependent on cars for their way of life. Meanwhile, we have it good. Or, if we don't have it good, we're working to much to care. I'm young and I don't have a car, and even I ahve to fight of complacence. I know that my parents are not ready to cut theiir gas use in any meaningful way, and they're Democrats who hate Bush.
This was spot on.
posted by es_de_bah at 6:58 AM on July 28, 2005

I prefer comparing the current mess in Iraq to Spain :

Specifically, Napoleon's ill-fated invasion and occupation of Spain, and the resulting Spanish guerrilla struggle. The conflict, which inspired Goya's "The Horrors of War", was marked by extreme savagery on both sides and had aspects of a religious war - and also the Spanish Civil War ( also a religious war - on the part of the Fascists ).
posted by troutfishing at 7:14 AM on July 28, 2005

Premise: BS.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:16 AM on July 28, 2005

Why is there no protests in Washington or mass demonstrations against the war?

Look at the news cycles. We see no dead Americans, we see no coffins. Hell, we rarely see a dead Iraqi or insurgent for that matter. The disconnect in this country is staggering. The administration has played this one masterfully in that they simply don't discuss it and when someone tries to, they simply label them as some leftwing nut being un-patriotic.

I guess we are all tired of the Iraq links but it can't be ignored...not if we give a shit about the future of that region and our country.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:16 AM on July 28, 2005

on preview: please remove my statement Matt, Paris says the whole thing is bullshit.
posted by j.p. Hung at 7:20 AM on July 28, 2005

I've gotta admit it, no one know BS like PeePee. I suppose the entire thread should be deleted since it has been decreed BS.

Perhaps we could get a protest about Pairs Hilton going instead? Or Donald Trump? You know, things people care about and our SCLM cover.
posted by nofundy at 7:26 AM on July 28, 2005

Premise: BS.

Seriously, why do you even bother? Do you think you'll ever convince someone that way?
posted by delmoi at 7:27 AM on July 28, 2005

History, said Stephen, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.
posted by rhizome23 at 7:28 AM on July 28, 2005

Premise: BS.

Is that like Magic: The Gathering?
posted by selfnoise at 7:36 AM on July 28, 2005

Don't feed the troll.
posted by docgonzo at 7:36 AM on July 28, 2005

Last week a pro-government newspaper had an article on the reconstruction of Baghdad. Above the article was a picture of a crane at a building site. But there are no cranes at work in Baghdad, so the paper was compelled to use a photograph of a crane that has been rusting for more than two years and was abandoned at the site of a giant mosque Saddam Hussein was constructing.

This sounds like the quotes from concerned Iraqi citizens we hear from the US military.
posted by caddis at 7:37 AM on July 28, 2005

posted by voltairemodern at 7:38 AM on July 28, 2005

Tired of posts and threads like this? Withdraw foreign troops from Iraq. And don't let the U.S. do it again.

Of course it won't happen: most Americans love having other Americans kill foreigners. The only really unpopular war in U.S. history was the Revolutionary War of the 1770s: even more than we love killing foreigners, Americans hate standing up for ourselves.
posted by davy at 8:21 AM on July 28, 2005

i don't think it's just complacency ... despair and disgust have much to do with the lack of demonstrations

let's face it ... nothing is going to change bush's mind on this ... and, judging from last year's election race, nothing is going to motivate the democratic party to run an antiwar candidate

so just what would be the point? ... feeling better about ourselves? ... a symbolic feeling of "hey, we protested"?

sorry, but i have better things to do and problems i can solve ... truth is, i can't even be bothered to argue much about this, because none of the people i'd argue with are going to change their minds

maybe in '08 we can make our voices heard ... until then, it's pretty hopeless
posted by pyramid termite at 9:08 AM on July 28, 2005

Don't worry, kids. Ol' Flashy will find a way out of this'un!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:15 AM on July 28, 2005

This thread is why MeFi is dead. Allow me to bookmark Fark. Enjoy the five bucks. Carry on, y2karl. you do a service to us all. i'm out.
posted by rhizome23 at 9:35 AM on July 28, 2005

Of course it won't happen: most Americans love having other Americans kill foreigners

[irony]Why do you hate America?[/irony]

But, seriously, WTF?
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 9:47 AM on July 28, 2005

President Bush's response to pretty much anything asked of him lately.
(No real other place to stick this)
posted by Balisong at 9:56 AM on July 28, 2005

"I guess we are all tired of the Iraq links but it can't be ignored...not if we give a shit about the future of that region and our country."
j.p. Hung is dead on.
Why are we tired of hearing about it? Is it that it's such a bummer to hear about people dying for our interests?
Yeah. That sucks. They're heros 'n' all, but I don't want to hear about their suffering. Can't we please see more bunting? Y'know, the red white and blue bunting strung up all over everything? Also, let's ignore the greiving families. It's such a downer. We get it already, people are dying and suffering over this B.S. in Iraq. Does it mean we have to share their pain? Isn't that the way people do things - turn your back on the suffering because you don't want to see it? Welcoming & comforting them would be so, I dunno.... look I've got better things to do. Let's move on, I'm SOOO tired of caring about it, which I really didn't in the first place.
I'm off to visit our V.A. hospital later today (thank you DAV). I'm sure I'll see PP there, since, y'know, he obviously cares so much.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:25 AM on July 28, 2005

Why are we tired of hearing about it? Is it that it's such a bummer to hear about people dying for our interests?

Have you ever heard of the concept of the right time and place to discuss things? I know you think this is Really Important, and you might be right, but that doesn't mean that you get to use MetaFitler as your personal soapbox to beat everyone into submission with a series of redundant links. If the first 100 Iraq posts didn't convince somebody then they're not going to be convinced, no matter how much righteous indignation and snark you muster. Maybe it is Really Important, but that doesn't mean that you get to use this community to spread your personal beliefs about everything you consider to be Really Important. This is about the "best of the web", not "most important issues of the day". If you want to constantly talk about politics take it to DailyKos.
posted by thedevildancedlightly at 10:36 AM on July 28, 2005

I usually tire of y2karl's incessant brow beating, but this article is as devastating as it is measured.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:15 AM on July 28, 2005

If the first 100 Iraq posts didn't convince somebody then they're not going to be convinced, no matter how much righteous indignation and snark you muster.

THANK YOU! Yeesh. I can understand why people think this is an important issue, and it is, but for crying out loud, it's the same day after day, the same points rehashed and put up, with the rebuttals being almost as predictable.

I don't mind a good intellectual debate, but that DOESN'T HAPPEN in these threads anymore, so truly, what is the point? Is there someone out there unaware of the consequences of the war? Are they reading metafilter?
posted by Drylnn at 11:15 AM on July 28, 2005

I’m just amazed at the complacency of the American citizen. No WMDs, Saddam is gone, yet the war goes on. Why is there no protests in Washington or mass demonstrations against the war? The “insurgents” are just everyday Iraqis who don’t want an American proxy government controlling their oil.
posted by disgruntled at 5:12 AM PST on July 28 [!]

I think it is because most Americans want Empire.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 11:18 AM on July 28, 2005

I must respectfully defer to mediareport's superior sensibilities and withdraw my defense of this post.

Your post sucks y2karl. [cough]
There.
Please pardon me for offending anyone.

But the issue, that's a matter that needs a thorough airing and lots of discussion, so bring on the Iraqi quagmire posts everyone else! We need 'em!
posted by nofundy at 11:27 AM on July 28, 2005

I don't mind a good intellectual debate, but that DOESN'T HAPPEN in these threads anymore, so truly, what is the point?

Mmmm tautological.
posted by petebest at 11:48 AM on July 28, 2005

Gee, I don't know, I see lots of good debate here, some lefties leaning right, some righties leaning left, a little sway, a little bobble, a little weave. Why, it's a regular lovefest here.
I don't think this or any politically oriented topics are dead and if they were, well they wouldn't be generating the kind of responses they do. At this point commentary is up to 44 and growing, most posts like this generate around 100 or so compared to 20 to 40 for most posts.
If you don't like the topic, feel free to move onto something else that catches your fancy. It's a free county, I'nit?
Or is all that freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom of expression stuff just so much b.s.?
posted by mk1gti at 12:06 PM on July 28, 2005

President Bush and Rumsfeld are sitting in a bar. A guy walks in and asks the barman, "Isn't that Bush and Rumsfeld sitting over there?" The bartender says, "Yep, that's them." So the guy walks over and says, "Wow, this is a real honor! . What are you guys doing in here?" Bush says, "We're planning WW III." And the guy says, "Really? What's going to happen?" Bush says, "Well, we're going to kill 140 million Muslims and one blonde with big tits." The guy exclaimed, "A blonde with big tits? Why kill a blonde with big tits?"
Bush turns to Rumsfeld and says, "See, I told you no one CARES about the 140 million Muslims".

My mom likes to forward me e-mails.
posted by monkeyman at 12:16 PM on July 28, 2005

.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 1:22 PM on July 28, 2005

Seriously, why do you even bother? Do you think you'll ever convince someone that way?

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about y2karl.
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 1:23 PM on July 28, 2005

I see no problem with Iraq posts. It IS Really Important. If you're so cynical that you don't care anymore, I'm not sure why you're commenting.

On a single day in Baghdad this month 12 bombers blew themselves up. There have been more than 500 suicide attacks in Iraq during the past year.

This I didn't realize, and it's stupifying.
posted by jimmy76 at 1:26 PM on July 28, 2005

Iraq, you break.
posted by cpchester at 2:21 PM on July 28, 2005

"Before the war we used to get maybe 250 bodies a month. Now it is 800 or 900 a month from the Baghdad area alone," says Baker, who trained at Guy's Hospital in London and has overseen operations at the morgue for the past 15 years.

"The situation has worsened dramatically. We cannot cope."

While it is difficult to make comparisons with other violent cities around the world because Iraq is also a war zone, the number would give Baghdad a rate of somewhere around 230 "suspicious deaths" each year for every 100,000 residents.

In Bogota, Colombia, often considered one of the most violent cities in the world, the murder rate seldom exceeded 90 per 100,000 even at the peak of the 1990s drug wars.

Overflowing morgue testament to Iraq's mayhem
posted by y2karl at 2:26 PM on July 28, 2005

Wow, conservatives sure are getting better and better at maiming the messenger. I thought sure we'd get at least one "we are winning" response in this thread.

I guess maybe "Premise: BS" counts.
posted by hackly_fracture at 2:28 PM on July 28, 2005

Fifty some odd comments here so far and the vast majority of them should have been taken to MeTa.

Flag his posts, call him out in MeTa or whatever but the incessant whining about y2karl's posts is what kills any possible chance of real discussion.

If you don't have something to add then don't say anything.

y2karl, thanks for posting this. It is interesting and it is news. The war in Iraq is now spilling over into Europe, its not spilling over into Egypt. Its not being constrained to Iraq and this whole war has been a tremendous recruiting drive for terrorist organizations while US recruiters are having to stoop to buying de-tox kits for teenagers to get them to sign up.

Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean it isn't news.
posted by fenriq at 4:17 PM on July 28, 2005

....now spilling over into Egypt....
posted by fenriq at 4:17 PM on July 28, 2005

I missed that Vonnegut essay the first time. Great stuff. He's a sweet writer and a damn fine anarchist.

Did you hear that Bill Clinton hired a new intern? It turns out that his old intern had to go home and spend time with her family after her brother was killed in Iraq.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:22 PM on July 28, 2005

Metafilter: Why kill a blonde with big tits?
posted by HyperBlue at 6:13 PM on July 28, 2005

If people actually read the article instead of dedicating their time to elaborate around the "Oh, I am soooo very tired of this Iraq thing, don't you have something else like some blonde (preferably with big tits) disappearing ina tropical paradise somewhere?", there are some information I haven't yet seem:
- A soon-to-be-published investigation of 300 young Saudis caught and interrogated by Saudi intelligence on their way to Iraq to fight or blow themselves up shows that very few had any previous contact with al-Qaeda or any other terror organization before 2003. The invasion of Iraq made them decide to die.
- Some 36 Saudis who did blow themselves up in Iraq did so for similar reasons, according to the same study commissioned by the Saudi government and carried out by US-trained Saudi researcher Nawaf Obaid, who was given permission to speak to Saudi intelligence officers.
- A separate Israeli study of 154 foreign fighters in Iraq, carried out by the Global Research in International Affairs Centre in Israel, also concluded that almost all had been radicalized by Iraq alone.

This information points to a return to 9/11, when the West thought there the whole Muslin world was the threat. Now we are seeing the escalation of an asymmetrical war against Western targets - the Iraq war seems to have accomplished what Al Qaeda couldn't do alone, win the hearts and minds of the young Muslins anywhere for the jihad against the West. But this is probably not important, since the Iraq War was "won" already.
posted by nkyad at 9:28 PM on July 28, 2005

Nobody is protesting because Bush doesn't care about protesters. Marches and protests are just preaching to the choir, the only people who care are those who already agree with you.
posted by sophist at 12:11 AM on July 29, 2005

Fascinating! So many foreign policy experts.

How did you get that way?

President Bush is a decent man doing the best he can. This war won't go away if a Democrat is elected.

War is part of the human condition. In a few years, the same folks who are lamenting the death of a few Muslims will be screaming for their heads. You're just imagining that this is an issue can that be talked out. It isn't.

This isn't the sixties either. Sixties nostalgia has been a bore for 30 years.

You folks just plain don't know what you're talking about... and neither do I. Why don't you go about your business, cease imaging that your political views are really important, and have some fun?

This type of bloviation has been a stupendous bore for so long. Time to stop.

If you want to run our foreign policy, run for president. Otherwise, try doing your job. Go to a movie. Have a drink. Stop pretending that your silly ideas really matter.

They don't.
posted by Shouting at 5:39 AM on July 29, 2005

I see no problem with Iraq posts. It IS Really Important. If you're so cynical that you don't care anymore, I'm not sure why you're commenting.

Simple.
To qoute Bill O'Really : "SHUT UP, JUST SHUT UP!!!"
Now, that's how you handle unpleasant things that upset your cognitive dissonance.
Drown out what you don't' want to hear or know with whining and yelling.

President Bush is a decent man doing the best he can.
Speaking of cognitive dissonance.

You rock y2karl!
posted by nofundy at 6:01 AM on July 29, 2005

If you want to run our foreign policy, run for president. Otherwise, try doing your job. Go to a movie. Have a drink. Stop pretending that your silly ideas really matter.

They don't.
posted by Shouting at 8:39 AM EST on July 29 [!]

Try taking your own advice.
posted by trey at 6:22 AM on July 29, 2005